Club theft-course responsible?

[bruinduke]

Are warning signs enough?

Hello Legal Eagles,

Thought for my first post I would post a question bugging me ever since a contracts class back in the day.

A while back a professor used a sign at a golf course to explore the idea of consideration...the sign read "Golf course not responsible for stolen clubs."

Given the popularity of clubs being stolen at local courses...can the course be responsible in part or fully for clubs being stolen even if posting signs? I vaguely recall the prof saying that since there was no consideration, a sign of that nature doesn't truly relieve liability. Even if a posted sign relieves liability contractually...doesn't the course have a higher standard of due diligence as you are an invitee on their property, especially if they are aware of a problem in club thefts?

Maybe some suggestions to members can be offered other than the course escaping all liability.

[BJL]

Bruinduke:

 

I read that golf club theft losses are in excess of $100 million per year in the U.S. I don't know if this is correct, but it's a big number that is symptomatic of a growing problem. With the cost of some of the Golfwrx members' bags ($4,000+), it's no surprise. Thieves can dress in a polo shirt and khakis, and blend with the average patron.

 

Back to the question. No clear answer on this one. It depends on a number of factual questions:

 

1. Is it a muni course? It's nearly impossible to hold a muni liable for anything, as they are usually owned by some muni corp with all kinds of barriers to liability.

 

2. Does the course have knowledge of past thefts? If a course has prior knowledge of a "problem" with club theft on its premises, the law will favor a claimant, especially if no warning signs are posted. Generally, business owners have a duty to protect against known risks.

 

3. Are signs clearly posted? The more signs posted with clear warnings against leaving clubs unattended, the tougher it gets for a claimant.

 

4. Has the club somehow invited you to store your clubs at the area where they were stolen? Did the marshal or bag check guy take your prized children to the club rack where they were boosted? If yes, your case gets better.

 

If your clubs are boosted, then you must complain, complain, complain. Document the loss through a police report (previous victims may have done the same giving the course knowledge of the problem). The mgmt. will tell you that they assume no liability - "Read the sign, dude." Keep pushing, however. I would assume that most golf courses have general liability insurance policies against which you can make a claim. Demand the insurance coverage information.

 

If you become a major pain in the a**, you can always bargain for a pro shop credit or a year of free golf.

 

Here's my best advice: Don't leave your clubs unattended. As my Uncle Jun used to say, "Don't go into a tank full of sharks with a steak strapped to your a**, and expect to come out with your underwear."

 

The Counselor

[joey3108]

Here's my best advice: Don't leave your clubs unattended.  As my Uncle Jun used to say, "Don't go into a tank full of sharks with a steak strapped to your a**, and expect to come out with your underwear."

 

The Counselor

1912[/snapback]

Does Uncle Jun play w/ a 5 Stars Honma and drive a PINTO? :(

 

:lol:

[bruinduke]

If you become a major pain in the a**, you can always bargain for a pro shop credit or a year of free golf.

 

 

The Counselor

1912[/snapback]

 

BJL, that's great advice. Especially as the victim of a club theft...the best way not to feel "helpless" is to take action.

 

Take it up with the club, staff, mgmt, anybody that will listen. Don't feel like there's nothing that can be done. In most cases chances are the clubs are gone and can't be easily replaced, but that doesn't mean that you have to be victimized. Ask questions, get the matter documented...hopefully you find a sympathetic ear. Maybe you don't get the tour set back, but some compensation is better than nothing.

 

It's like asking the hot girl in class out...you never know until you ask.

[BJL]

It's like asking the hot girl in class out...you never know until you ask.

1924[/snapback]

 

Unfortunately, in Joe's case, he always knew the answer ... "Stop talking to me, or I will call the police." :lol:

[Gxgolfer]

Does Uncle Jun play w/ a 5 Stars Honma and drive a PINTO? :crazy:

 

:lol:

Unfortunately, in Joe's case, he always knew the answer ... "Stop talking to me, or I will call the police." :shout:

1928[/snapback]

 

 

:( :beach: :rtfm: :help: :good: :yess: :vava:

 

That's gotta be some of the funniest stuff I've seen on here yet. :vava:

[joey3108]

Unfortunately, in Joe's case, he always knew the answer ... "Stop talking to me, or I will call the police." :beach:

1928[/snapback]

No no no ! You are wrong! :good:

 

I would answer them " You talk to me? Me no english!!! Go away!!! " :( :help: :lol: :rtfm:

 

Joe :yess:

[nearfall152]

BJL, that's great advice. 

It's like asking the hot girl in class out...you never know until you ask.

1924[/snapback]

 

True enough...we used to cut them a huge deal on a replacement set, no tour stuff, but any help is better than nothing

[golf2da]

The talk about stolen clubs made me think of a question. When I was in Malaysia the country club that I belonged too had insurance that you could buy and it was real cheap. It covered any golf equipment stolen or broken no matter where in the world you went as long as you were still a member of that country club. I only used it once on a stolen electric score card. All of the clubs that I broke Callaway fixed although they would have fixed them. I have not seen that kind of insurance anywhere here in the states. Is it available or has anyone seen it?

[BJL]

The talk about stolen clubs made me think of a question. When I was in Malaysia the country club that I belonged too had insurance that you could buy and it was real cheap. It covered any golf equipment stolen or broken no matter where in the world you went as long as you were still a member of that country club. I only used it once on a stolen electric score card. All of the clubs that I broke Callaway fixed although they would have fixed them. I have not seen that kind of insurance anywhere here in the states. Is it available or has anyone seen it?

5605[/snapback]

 

 

Country clubs in Europe and Asia often have insurance to protect against theft loss. I am not sure that American clubs have the ability to retain this insurance product, but if you are victimized, it does not hurt to ask.

[trickyric]

my clubs were actually stolen from the club I was a member at back in 1991. The Pro was a good friend of mine and he went to the owner of the club and told him he could get it all replaced by his Titleist rep at half of whole sale (he had already spoken to the rep) for what was about $400 the whole thing would have been cleared up. the owner said no! sorry we are not responsible.

I then bought the clubs from the rep and sued the club in small claims court for $2000.

I won!

lost clubs+new clubs+jerko owner= $1600 profit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

some times there is a way to win! :lol:

[JHR]

I belong to 2 clubs, both high end and I don't even leave my clubs at their bag drops, when I finish I wait for them to be cleaned and I take them to my car. These days you can not trust anyone, If my clubs where stolen I could only blame myself for being to lazy to take them and secure them in my vehicle.

[BJL]

Seems to me most here are looking to pass the liability for the theft from their shoulders to someone else's - and I'm not sure it's right, and it sounds like a sure-fire way to keep insurance companies here from getting involved in offering coverage.

 

Kinda like a discussion I was involved in a while back in another forum where a guy's set was lost after falling out the back of a buddy's pickup and wanted to know who was responsible - and I said, "you are for allowing them to be placed, or placing them, somewhere where you could/should have identified the risk."

 

Now before all of you "I want my free golf clubs" guys fire back at me - YES, I have been a victim myself back in the early '90s - lost a whole set of new irons.

 

But one thing I can attest to is having changed my own personal procedures - which is what I think is key to the heart of this issue. And it's also why I can't realistically discuss this issue not knowing the entire situation.

 

I've seen bag drops situated in places that begged for clubs to go missing, and I've seen others that had at least some semblance of being in a "controlled" spot. And thus if the spot looks the last bit hinky, I figure it's my responsibility to find somewhere else to leave them to limit my chance of loss. For in that sense if you park your new car in the ghetto, regardless of where it's supposedly "safe" - I think it's your problem. And in that sense if you park your car in front of a convenience store even in a nice area of town and leave the keys in it - it's your problem as well.

 

SO if they were left in an area controlled by the club, the drop off where a cart atendee leaves them after taking your cart from you - YES, you should have some expectation to get them back. Taken from your locker in the clubhouse - YES again (unless you left the locker open). Taken from your cart that is literally abandoned for an hour while you suck down brews with your buddies in the 19th hole - NOPE, you were asking for it.

 

It seems suing has become the national pasttime, and then people complain because insurance company's rates go up and increase by leaps and bounds. And that's when I tell those same people that we have no one to blame but ourselves.

8967[/snapback]

 

I agree that taking reasonable precautions is a must. Despite our best efforts to be careful, however, we are sometimes the victims of crime. Sometimes we have to drive through that bad neighorhood, because it is on the way to somewhere. Does that mean we are somehow responsible for the harms that befall us? Yes, frivolous lawsuits do abound, but I hope we are not at a point where we blame the victim who leaves his or her clubs unattended while catching a burger at the turn, using the bathroom, or making a quick phonecall. That's the former prosecutor in me coming out....

[Gxgolfer]

I think the whole point of this thread is that most places encourage you to use the the club drop off area to pickup and leave your clubs. Whether a warning sign is posted or not, most people will think that they are turning there clubs over to someone's possesion they trust and will be responsible for. Of course, some of us here have learned the realities in a much harder way. BJL advice gives some insight and warning to those who may not have thought twice about such matters. We are not going to get into the moralites of lawsuits or spiral down into a discussion about insurance premiums and supposed effects of lawsuits.

[JHR]

No surprise to anyone I hope, The bad guys are going to win more times than not. No one is going to spend the money to police this stuff enough. I just played golf with a member at my club, he had all new stuff, I asked what happened? He tells me a story about how someone walked into Detroit Metro Airport and signed his claim slip and off they went with his clubs, before he could get from his plane to bag claim. That blows, $4000+. Airline will insure up to $2800. I know if my bag like so many others is worth way more than that. The bottom line is, you can't stop it, it is just like the debate about fire arms. I have a concealed weapons permit, I had to go to classes, underwent FBI investigations and would probably get in more trouble if I shoot and kill someone. The bad guys don't have rules and you can't win, take your stuff to the car, don't trust that it won't happen to you, it will. Their are not enough penalties to stop these guys from trying.

[Debit]

Munis and semi-privates are notorious for folk assuming that anything unattended is like a club barrel. After any round, the first thing we do is put the clubs and other gear in the car. As for who pays, check with your household insurance carrier. Provided I have a receipt or evaluation, my homeowners insurance covers the loss -- if the clubs are expensive, you can add a rider. I'm SOL as my clubs are custom-fit/built, but my brother. Insurance might pay for the components, but I'd never collect the real value

[arkstorm]

It cost me about $40 beans to insure my clubs with State Farm.  Doesn't matter how they get stolen...airlines, theft whatever.  Worth that price and then some.  If your bag is worth that much, don't rely on whether you can or can't get a club to give you a discount on retail or cut you a check or give you free golf.  I've got over $5k now in golf crap I take to the course...got to protect yourself and insuring them is the best way IMO.

 

talk to Hasse11 on BSG (he is or will be shortly a member here too) he's the one I got my sticks insured with.  Great guy.

 

Brian

 

My legal question is: if I catch someone trying to steal my clubs and I kill them (on accident of course: "officer, he was already lying in the road bleeding when I ran over him) could I be convicted of murder?

12305[/snapback]

 

Brian:

 

Whether you are convicted of murder depends on multiple variables:

 

1. what jurisdiciton? All 50 states and federal law is somewhat different on what constitutes first degree murder (usually premeditated and intentional), second degree murder (usually intentional or reckless but not premeditated), voluntary or involuntary manslaughter.

 

2. what venue: specifically what county within a state. Individual prosecutors may vary in what they will and will not prosecute.

 

3. the specific facts of your case.

 

4. the jury.

 

Hopefully you will never have to find out. I would strongly recommend going through the proper authorities rather than take matters into your own hands, it will cause a lot less problems in the long run. Despite what you hear about federal prisons, there are very few correctional facilities that allow inmates to play golf.

 

 

I’ve got to chime in here…

 

Ndlawyer’s analysis is not incorrect, but it omits some key points that must be established to answer the question.

 

First, to restate your question: Can you use a justification defense to murder after offing the guy you just busted steeling your sticks?

 

Regardless of the jurisdiction, the law in all fifty States is that you may never use deadly force to protect property. Thus, the short answer is that you can be convicted of some form of homicide crime. (Although prosecutorial discretion would determine whether or not you got charged)

 

The homicide crimes recognized in American Jurisprudence are: First degree murder; Murder; Voluntary manslaughter; and Involuntary manslaughter

 

1. First Degree Murder varies in definition from state to state, but under Federal Law it is defined as the premeditated killing of another with malice aforethought.

 

2. Murder is any homicide that is not 1st degree murder, or manslaughter. There are four modes of murder (which are distinguishable by the intent of the killer): intent to kill; intent to cause great bodily harm; depraved heart murder; and felony murder.

 

3. Voluntary manslaughter is a killing committed under extreme provocation.

 

4. Involuntary manslaughter is essentially an accidental killing committed with criminal negligence.

 

Thus, let’s analyze these four options to see which one fits best:

 

If you killed the guy “by accident” as you proposed, than the only homicide crime you may be convicted of is involuntary manslaughter. And only if the accident is one where your actions amount to criminal negligence, I.e. you deviated from the standard duty of care so much that your actions were at least likely, to some degree, to cause the result. If it was truly an “innocent accident” you cannot be convicted of any homicide crime.

 

However, if the accident is one where you claim, “I only meant to beat the guy to within an inch of his life, but I underestimated his height”, I.e. you wanted to hurt him but not kill him, you can be convicted of murder by way of intent to cause great bodily harm.

 

The problem for you is that we all know what we’d like to do to that lousy no good piece of @#&$ who stole our clubs…and so does the DA (he probably golfs). So he’s not likely to accept your story that it was an innocent accident. Thus, as far as accidents go, you're not likely to get off so easily.

 

But there is still another way of looking at this. Perhaps you were provoked?

 

To be convicted of voluntary manslaughter (as opposed to a more serious crime) you must show that you were provoked and did not have time to cool off from the provocation before squashing the guy. Also, you must show that a reasonable person in your situation would have been provoked, and that the same reasonable person in your situation would not have had time to cool off.

 

This is a tough one. It all hinges on whether a reasonable person would have been adequately provoked by having his golf equipment ganked.

 

The fact of the matter is that golfers aren’t reasonable. We spend lavishly on our gear while having to live out of the back of a pick-up truck because we spent the rent money on the latest Titleist irons. (Got mine on order already). Unfortunately for you, the reasonable person standard is one of an ordinary person, not an ordinary golfer. And anyway, its no stretch to foresee some hippie on the jury bleed from the heart for the poor victim who took your clubs so you wouldn’t be able to golf on land that was once the exclusive domain of the rare three toed thorny woodpecker before it was deforested to build that open links course.

 

If the jury isn’t convinced that a "reasonable person" would have been adequately provoked, you’re moving onward and upward towards that life sentence.

 

If a jury fails to believe your theory of provocation – watch out. You may have just gotten yourself a battlefield promotion from voluntary manslaughter to 1st degree murder.

 

Absent extreme provocation, if you intended to kill, made a plan, and went through with it, you just committed 1st degree murder.

 

Under no circumstances, however, may you claim that you had to kill the guy to save your stuff. Think about it…someone’s life / your stuff. Okay, okay, I would probably want to kill anyone who would take any of my highly prized golf gear. But under the law, that is no defense.

 

Moral of the story is obvious: If you catch a guy boosting your goods, make sure to bury the body sufficiently well so that you'll never have to answer for it.

 

Regards,

[Asleep]

...Regardless of the jurisdiction, the law in all fifty States is that you may never use deadly force to protect property....

 

Not in Texas....

 

§ 9.41. PROTECTION OF ONE'S OWN PROPERTY. (a) A person

in lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property is

justified in using force against another when and to the degree the

actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to

prevent or terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful

interference with the property.

(b) A person unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible,

movable property by another is justified in using force against the

other when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force

is immediately necessary to reenter the land or recover the

property if the actor uses the force immediately or in fresh pursuit

after the dispossession and:

(1) the actor reasonably believes the other had no

claim of right when he dispossessed the actor; or

(2) the other accomplished the dispossession by using

force, threat, or fraud against the actor.

 

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974.

Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, § 1.01, eff. Sept. 1,

1994.

 

 

§ 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is

justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or

tangible, movable property:

(1) if he would be justified in using force against the

other under Section 9.41; and

(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the

deadly force is immediately necessary:

(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of

arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the

nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or

(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing

immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated

robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the

property; and

(3) he reasonably believes that:

(A) the land or property cannot be protected or

recovered by any other means; or

(B) the use of force other than deadly force to

protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or

another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

 

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974.

Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, § 1.01, eff. Sept. 1,

1994.

 

 

Not a good place to be a thief. We can shoot 'em when they're running down the street with our television in hand. :)

[arkstorm]

...Actually, not exactly.

 

The Texas law allows you to use deadly force to thwart crimes that combine a crime against property with a crime against the person, e.g. arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery. Those crimes not only involve a crime against property, but also combine an element of threat to personal safety. Notice the crime of larceny (defined: taking and carrying away the property of another with intent to permanently deprive) is not on the list. Robbery, the combined crimes of larceny and either battery (intending to cause an offensive touching to the person of another) or assault (intending to place another in apprehension of an immenent battery) is. Since robbery is larceny by force or with threats thereof it follows that certain allowances be made for one to protect themselves (pending certain caveats).

 

Also note, "theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime" sounds similar to burglary which is the breaking and entering at night into the dwelling of another with the intent to commit a felony therein (although under modern law most courts abolished the "at night" requirement). Again, this touches on the fact that one is entitled to use force, even deadly force, in protection of their home.

 

As this relates to golf clubs...steeling golf clubs is larceny (unless the guy forced them from you at gunpoint). And as stated previously, and even under Texas's legal system, you may never use deadly force to protect property. Though, as you highlight, under certain circumstances, and in certain states, you may use deadly force to prevent a crime that sounds of a crime against the person.

 

Interestingly enough, and perhaps more importantly, if the law of the state doesn't allow prosecution, the killer can still be hauled into Federal criminal court to face murder charges under Federal law (which is the law I described in my original post). So whereas you may be able to, "shoot 'em when they're running down the street with our television in hand" and evade state criminal prosecution, you will still face Federal murder charges.

 

So don't kill anyone for taking your stuff, and keep 'em under the wind down there,

 

Regards,

[Ken_In_CA]

"....Moral of the story is obvious: If you catch a guy boosting your goods, make sure to bury the body sufficiently well so that you'll never have to answer for it."

 

 

 

I'm sure that if you look around and see other fellow golfers, all you would have to do is tell your story and they'll help you bury the body in one of the sand traps! :)

 

Ken

[BJL]

...Regardless of the jurisdiction, the law in all fifty States is that you may never use deadly force to protect property....

 

Not in Texas....

 

§ 9.41. PROTECTION OF ONE'S OWN PROPERTY. (a) A person

in lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property is

justified in using force against another when and to the degree the

actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to

prevent or terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful

interference with the property.

(b) A person unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible,

movable property by another is justified in using force against the

other when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force

is immediately necessary to reenter the land or recover the

property if the actor uses the force immediately or in fresh pursuit

after the dispossession and:

(1) the actor reasonably believes the other had no

claim of right when he dispossessed the actor; or

(2) the other accomplished the dispossession by using

force, threat, or fraud against the actor.

 

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974.

Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, § 1.01, eff. Sept. 1,

1994.

 

 

§ 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is

justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or

tangible, movable property:

(1) if he would be justified in using force against the

other under Section 9.41; and

(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the

deadly force is immediately necessary:

(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of

arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the

nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or

(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing

immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated

robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the

property; and

(3) he reasonably believes that:

(A) the land or property cannot be protected or

recovered by any other means; or

(B) the use of force other than deadly force to

protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or

another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

 

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974.

Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, § 1.01, eff. Sept. 1,

1994.

 

 

Not a good place to be a thief. We can shoot 'em when they're running down the street with our television in hand. :lol:

 

Gotta love Texas. They still honor the "King of the Castle" doctrine in allowing deadly force to protect property and home.

 

BJL

[jportz]

Here's a scenario....what would you do?

 

This happened last week at my club.

 

I'm at the range hitting balls (my usual post-work routine) and one of the "course kids" comes up to me asking about his clubs. He was at the end of the range, near the first tee, hitting balls. He left his bag there and went into the clubhouse to buy a Gatorade and use the facilities and when he came out his brand new Titleist 905R was gone. This kid is about 12 years old, plays to a 4 handicap and spends about 85% of his life at the golf course so everyone knows him.

 

Anyways...i didn't see anyone messing with his clubs but I did remember a guy that had just tee'd off from the first tee. We look around a bit and don't see anything so we jump in a cart and head out in search of his driver. We see the guy on the 2nd tee box and as we pull up we see the 905R headcover in the guys cart and then see that he is holding the driver. Here's how the conversation went down:

 

Me: hey man, is that your driver?

 

Him: Huh (with deer in headlights look on his face)

 

Me: Where did you get that driver?

 

Him: (same look but nothing coming out of his mouth....just looking at me kind of creapy-like)

 

Kid: That's my fricken driver man....I can tell by the grip.

 

Him: (crickets)

 

Me: (as I'm getting out of my cart) Why did you try to steal this kids golf club? Are you F....ing serious that you're so stupid to grab his club out of his bag and then take it out to play? Are F...ing kidding me that you're that stupid?

 

Him: (still crickets as he drops the golf club on the ground and starts walking towards his cart)

 

Kid: (picking up the driver) Yeah man, this is my fricken driver...what the f... man? Why did you take my driver?

 

Me: (Walking towards the guy since he was about to just jump in his cart and leave) hey man, seriously, what is your problem? Do you think it's cool to just grab somebody's club and take it?

 

Finally the guy gets in the cart and drives away, towards the clubhouse...he never said a word to us and he got in his car and drove off. I went back into the clubhouse and they had his name in the computer so I asked the Pro if he could do anything and he said they wouldn't allow him to play there anymore.

 

Should we have called the police or would that have been a waste of time?

 

Should I have beaten the punk down right there on the # 2 tee box and let the kid kick him a few times while he was down?

 

It was the wierdest thing I've ever experienced....the guy must of been crazy or something. he was just looking at us but not saying anything....it actually kind of freaked me out.

 

Anyways...the kid got his club back but I still think about what I should've or could've done differently.

 

Comments?

[italianstallion]

I would've called in the Police. Yes, it is a golf club, but what would you do if someone took your wallet that contained 400 bucks? Same idea here, stealing is stealing. People get put in jail for a night when they shoplift 50 dollar shirts from the mall, so this is not a small issue in my mind. And, if he did it this time, he's probably done it before, so he might have more clubs at his house he's stolen and gotten away with.

 

Good idea to go to the pro and not let the guy play there anymore.

[arkstorm]

You should call the police, here's why:

 

A guy like that will keep trying to pull crap like that until he is punished. Catching him isn't enough, he needs to be slapped.

 

In my home state, stealing $400 can get you up to 1 year in county prison. This is true whether its cash or property that is taken.

 

Its not too late to call the cops. You'll wish you did if five years down the line you hear that this ****** graduated to armed robbery. Stop him now, and maybe he'll change his ways.