Journey to Break 90

[bortass]

[quote name='sshadow2' timestamp='1307749223' post='3299116']
(snip)
Hey Bortass. Good to see your yardages coming together. 6i for 166 is good stuff. One thing I noticed personally is that the yardages I hit on matted ranges are about 5-10 yds longer than actual fairway strikes with irons. I've tried taking one more club and then gripping down about 2-3". I've been short a lot less lately because of that. Give it a try.
[/quote]

The new yardages are great. I think going +20 is more off a very solid shot but my slight mishits are landing within yards of the green. Sometimes I will miss by alot more, but that's a top or a bladed ball normally.

I replayed the front tonight and some tees moved. Bear with me.

1 - par 4, I hit a low pull 187 into the left rough. I'm 125 from center and hit my 9i a bit heavy and just short of the green. I have a slightly awkward stance because my right foot is almost in a bunker. My chip is a bit off and I'm 9 feet away from the hgole and I 2 putt for 5.

2 - par 4, I hit a low pull into #1, 160. I was thinking that I'd try to fade it on purpose and failed big time. I'm close to the pine trees between the fairways and hit a low 6i that puts me in the fairway 90 yards out. I'm goping uphill and hit my SW just sort of the green. I chip the ball to 2 feet and sink the putt for another 5. So i'm off pace from earlier already.

3 - par 4, I didn't want to hit that tree on the right and thought i'd fade the ball off the tee. I topped it 126 into the fairway. So much for hitting a planned shot.... I layup with my 7i and i have 127 to center and I'm uphill of the green. I hit it just a bit thin and land on the front of the green. I have a 26 par putt and I roll ther ball right in the middle of the cup for par.

Now I'm 3 strokes ahead of my earlier pace and yes I'm thinking this as I play.

4 - par 3, and they moved the tees forward so it's about 137. I hit my 8i and it's a low draw that misses short and left. I hit it off the toe. I chip to 6 feet and drain the par putt.

5 - long par 4, I hit a low draw 210 into the left rough. i'm 170 out and decide on my 5i. I hit it low and it gets me to 70 yards out. I could have laid up with a 7i and hit the ball closer but i'd definately not make the green. The hole plays like a par 5 for me, so I felt ok going with a shot that is very likel;y to be short but has a chance to make it. So from 70 yards i open my SW and hit a high pitch that lands hole high 15 feet to the right of the hole. I line up my putt and it catches the right edge( high side) spins out the back 3 feet past. Sooo close to par. I have an easy bogey and miss the putt and settle for a double. Sigh.

6 - par 3, It's playing 111to the front and I hit my GW. I use a full swing instead of a punch and it lands a few yards short of the green and stops. it was a nice high shot. maybe I should have hit my punch. It's a forward flag and my chip is skulled 21 feet past the hole. I leave my par putt 1 foot from the hole on the high side. i had the distance but not the aim, so Ihave a bogey.

7 - par 4, the tees are on the left. i hit a low draw that lands on top of the hill and rolls over 227 in the left side of the fairway. I'm 150 out and hit my 7i. It's a pull and I miss left and almost hole high. I chip to 5 feet and 2 putt for a bogey.

8 - par 4, I hit a low push and it's a rocket. It hits the top of the hill on the right and kicks right. If my shot was more right i probably cath the slope to kick left. Anyhow I'm 195 off the tee in the right rough. I'm 177 out and hit my 5i. Same logic as on #5. I hit a low pull and miss the green 10 yards short and 20 yards left. I mishit my chip and it's on the front of the green. i have a 26 foot par putt liek on 3. No problem i say to myself. I hit the putt and i miss 1 foot to the right on the high side. Again i had the speed but not the aim. So i have another bogey.

9 - par 5, and I try to fade the ball again. instead I hit a mid height draw 191 up onto the flat. I get antsy and top my 4w almost to the 150 marker. The flag is on the back teir so it's about 170 ish. i hit my 5i and it's a low pull that misses the green 20 yards left but I'm withing a few yards of being hole high. I'm in the rough and the grass is leaning towards my club. My chip is too aggressive and rolls through the green. I chip again and almost hit the flag but I'm about 12 feet past the hole. A 2 putt dbl bogey is the end result.

So I shot a 44 and was an inch from a 42. 44 is my second lowest 9 hole score ever. I also did it without any one part of my game being awesome, though my putting was pretty good. My drives were decent and my bad ones I was able to recover to decent spots. This is the kind of round I've been expecting the last month, it just took alot longer then my ego expected.

[Rohlio]

[quote name='bortass' timestamp='1307728814' post='3298547']

Normally i just setup and swing w/o a specific shot in mind. Maybe I need to see what happens if I start thinking about the shot I want to hit more.
[/quote]

No matter how good or bad you are at golf you will be better if you start intending to hit a particular shot to a particular target every time.

[bsugolf09]

[quote name='Rohlio' timestamp='1307764826' post='3299589']
[quote name='bortass' timestamp='1307728814' post='3298547']
Normally i just setup and swing w/o a specific shot in mind. Maybe I need to see what happens if I start thinking about the shot I want to hit more.
[/quote]

No matter how good or bad you are at golf you will be better if you start intending to hit a particular shot to a particular target every time.
[/quote]

+1

[bortass]

[quote name='bsugolf09' timestamp='1307768921' post='3299661']
[quote name='Rohlio' timestamp='1307764826' post='3299589']
[quote name='bortass' timestamp='1307728814' post='3298547']
Normally i just setup and swing w/o a specific shot in mind. Maybe I need to see what happens if I start thinking about the shot I want to hit more.
[/quote]

No matter how good or bad you are at golf you will be better if you start intending to hit a particular shot to a particular target every time.
[/quote]

+1
[/quote]


This makes perfect sense to me. Actually doing it is another story. I pick a target line, setup and swing unless I know I'm adjusting my shot. My shot adjustments are real basic. Driver I open the face a touch if I'm trying to hit a fade on a dogleg right. Irons I'll make a sligh adjustment to hit a punch. Wedges is the punch and opening the face and stance to hit a real high shot that dies on landing. That is the extent of my shot shaping.

I never have a specific spot to land the ball, just my line.

I think alot of this is that even though golf is a target game, I never played that way starting out. I was just picking a line and swinging, hoping that I'd hit the ball and it'd go kinda straight and get in the air.

So how big of a target do you guys aim for? I know the shorter the shot the smaller the target but with a driver is it a 10 yard circle?

[tfish]

[quote name='bortass' timestamp='1307807530' post='3300103'] So how big of a target do you guys aim for? I know the shorter the shot the smaller the target but with a driver is it a 10 yard circle?[/quote]

pick out a tree/shrub/bunker that's too far to reach and try to hit at that. then if you land in the fairway consider it a success.

[Rohlio]

[quote name='bortass' timestamp='1307807530' post='3300103']
[quote name='bsugolf09' timestamp='1307768921' post='3299661']
[quote name='Rohlio' timestamp='1307764826' post='3299589']
[quote name='bortass' timestamp='1307728814' post='3298547']
Normally i just setup and swing w/o a specific shot in mind. Maybe I need to see what happens if I start thinking about the shot I want to hit more.
[/quote]

No matter how good or bad you are at golf you will be better if you start intending to hit a particular shot to a particular target every time.
[/quote]

+1
[/quote]


This makes perfect sense to me. Actually doing it is another story. I pick a target line, setup and swing unless I know I'm adjusting my shot. My shot adjustments are real basic. Driver I open the face a touch if I'm trying to hit a fade on a dogleg right. Irons I'll make a sligh adjustment to hit a punch. Wedges is the punch and opening the face and stance to hit a real high shot that dies on landing. That is the extent of my shot shaping.

I never have a specific spot to land the ball, just my line.

I think alot of this is that even though golf is a target game, I never played that way starting out. I was just picking a line and swinging, hoping that I'd hit the ball and it'd go kinda straight and get in the air.

So how big of a target do you guys aim for? I know the shorter the shot the smaller the target but with a driver is it a 10 yard circle?
[/quote]

The more well defined the target the better. On full shots I pick something on the horizon normally ( not just something general like the bunker or the tree, but something specific like "That limb on that tree" or "That edge of that bunker"), as I get closer to the green I pick the specific spot I want the ball to land. Your short game will get tremendously better if you start picking the EXACT spot you want the ball to land, then just imagine the trajectory it will require to get it to hit that spot with the amount of roll you want. Then just step in and hit the ball to your spot.

[oneunderbogey]

I broke 90 for the first time today. Shot an 85 everything came together, it will happen just keep at it

[bortass]

[quote name='VTgolf12' timestamp='1307809222' post='3300148']
I broke 90 for the first time today. Shot an 85 everything came together, it will happen just keep at it
[/quote]

Congrats!

I'm in a weird place. The scramble yesterday was cancelled due to weather. So I went and played 18 in the mist. It had been raining the prior 20 hours, so the course was wet. I played terrible. I was hitting my insta slice off the tee alot.

Tonight was league night. I played the front and it was a bit dryer. I hit 100% of fairways with my driver... 230 draw, 196 draw, 239 draw, 198 low fade, 196 low draw, 189 low fade and the tee shot of the night: #9 the par 5 dogleg right. I decide to hit a fade again. I open the club just a touch. I hit a high fade that started a little left of my aim line and it faded back across it after passing the corner. This is an uphill tee shot and I hit it 211 onto the flat near the far side of the fairway ie I almost hit it through. This fade never came close to flirting with the trees and would have carried them no problem. It is the perfect tee shot for the hole unless you're trying to cut things by carrying the trees.

I had some problems on the par 3s and with a few approaches, so that made up for things but I posted a decent score.

[wwjbd24]

update?

[J Jack]

I'm not a teacher, and I'm on my own journey to break a score (80), but I've read most of your posts and I'll throw this out.

Re: the pull hook: I have a hard time thinking this is a swing path issue. I think it has to be the usual suspect, which is quitting on your hip turn and flipping your hands through impact: flip early and it's a pull hook, flip late and it's a push or slice. This is also my issue and I've worked on it a lot.
It is counterintuitive to think that one should turn harder to the left in order to avoid going left, but that's the solution. Is your zipper leading your hands through impact, and ending up pointing at the target? I know you have a teacher, but honestly you should use some of your range time on the hip/body turn.

Re: putting. you called 33 putts "okay" - I'd say that 33 putts if plenty good to get you into the 80s. So perhaps the default standard advice ("work on your short game") doesn't apply to you - I think you need to work on your long game.

Re: trying to produce miracle recovery shots: just regard a missed fairway or punchout as a missed putt. It's gonna happen, and there' s no reason to bring a bigger number into play.

My final thought is your intense focus on the score, and recounting every shot. I know it absolutely wouldn't work for me, and I play my best when I forget about the score and just try to hit the little white ball. YMMV of course.

When my game is really crapping out on my irons, I go to a 3/4 punch shot (like I'm hitting out from under a tree). Usually results in good clean contact.

My overall feeling is that there's so much thinking going on that you've pushed all your inherent athleticism out of your body. I'm a bookworm and the world's worst athlete, but I've worked hard to let what little I have show through.

Enjoyable reading, and best of luck to you!

[bortass]

[quote name='wwjbd24' timestamp='1308442755' post='3317528']
update?
[/quote]


[quote name='J Jack' timestamp='1308488013' post='3318397']
I'm not a teacher, and I'm on my own journey to break a score (80), but I've read most of your posts and I'll throw this out.

Re: the pull hook: I have a hard time thinking this is a swing path issue. I think it has to be the usual suspect, which is quitting on your hip turn and flipping your hands through impact: flip early and it's a pull hook, flip late and it's a push or slice. This is also my issue and I've worked on it a lot.
It is counterintuitive to think that one should turn harder to the left in order to avoid going left, but that's the solution. Is your zipper leading your hands through impact, and ending up pointing at the target? I know you have a teacher, but honestly you should use some of your range time on the hip/body turn.

Re: putting. you called 33 putts "okay" - I'd say that 33 putts if plenty good to get you into the 80s. So perhaps the default standard advice ("work on your short game") doesn't apply to you - I think you need to work on your long game.

Re: trying to produce miracle recovery shots: just regard a missed fairway or punchout as a missed putt. It's gonna happen, and there' s no reason to bring a bigger number into play.

My final thought is your intense focus on the score, and recounting every shot. I know it absolutely wouldn't work for me, and I play my best when I forget about the score and just try to hit the little white ball. YMMV of course.

When my game is really crapping out on my irons, I go to a 3/4 punch shot (like I'm hitting out from under a tree). Usually results in good clean contact.

My overall feeling is that there's so much thinking going on that you've pushed all your inherent athleticism out of your body. I'm a bookworm and the world's worst athlete, but I've worked hard to let what little I have show through.

Enjoyable reading, and best of luck to you!
[/quote]

I haven't been playing much the last week. I had a playing lesson Wednesday, tourney Saturday and played 9 today.

The playing lesson focused mostly on my tee shot. We used video and the thing that popped up was My head dips left on my backswing and then I try to shift right on my downswing. Stupid thing is I can't feel it happen. I feel like I'm drifting my weight right on my backswing when I keep my head behind the ball. The video showed I really don't drift right and my head is more stable. I hit a 4w off the tee of #1 at the end of the lesson and it was a perfedt draw and about 210 - 220 off the tee. I base the number on where I was in relation to hitting my driver about 10 yards further during some rounds.

My approaches suffer a bit because my aim is way off. I'm really aiming right of my target. This will take awhile to fix. My chipping was good during the lesson though it's been bad in my rounds lately. Go figure.

The pull hook being a swing path issue is based of what the pro I work with said. He's been working with my for 4 summers now and knows my swing. Now my turn. The video shows that I turn better and clear my hips when I keep my head from dipping left on my backswing. I'm not saying that is the fix but my quick move left doesn't help me any. it throws of my sequencing. Not that I think about sequencing. I try to avoid mechanical thoughts while playing.

I have begun to be more realistic with my recover shots and this is helping. I still manage to FUBAR some but overall it's better.

My putting sucks lately. It's very frustrating. I'm 2 and 3 putting when I shouldn't.

I'm still struggling off the tee. During the best ball tourney yesterday I had 4 good tee shots. 2 on par 4s, a par 3, and a par 5. I was able to get net birdies on those holes, so I accounted for 4 of the 12 net birdies my team got. Not great but as the D player I did my part. I know I could have done alot better but the tee shots are a mess. Even today I hit my driver right on all holes but 1. I still seem to be able to hit that perfect fade on #9. I've done it alot lately, so I feel confident with the shot. I was having driver issues yesterday as well except for the 3 holes I mentioned a bit earlier. I even tried my 4w off the tee on a hole near the end and shanked it, sigh.

I'm still making some good shots at times though. So it's not complete suckitude. I hit my 5i 183 today downwind. I heard that ball spin after contact, so I hit it pretty pure and the wind was behind me. That was my 150 club about 4 weeks ago. So my take right now is I'm making higher quality shots then earlier but I'm hitting more dogs.. Go figure.

My pro and i talked about clubs today as well. he's thinking i need to flatten my clubs. I have a pretty shallow swing but I setup very upright until a few weeks ago. He's noticed that I lift near impact trying to get my club more level. So I may have my +3 irons bent to +0 regardless of what the impact tape says. I'ver seen a few posts on this forum about upright clubs. The thought of some is that no one should be more then +2 upright if they have a decent swing. I was +5 upright when i was first fit 8 years ago. I was OTT then and a slice machine. I'm thinking that i've adjusted my swing to fit irons that are too upright. I mat slice my driver but I almost never slice an iron. My iron mishit is a bad pull hook that can miss up to 40 yards left.... So it's all about do you fit a bad swing or fit clubs more inline with a good swing, even if the player doesn't have one.

Sorry for all the rambling. happy father's day!

[ChipDriver]

Bortass:


I have followed your travails in breaking 90 and it seems that you are inconsistent with your swing. Namely that you seem to have no consistency and have different expectations about how you hit your clubs.

I will resuggest: learn to love your 6 iron. Learn to hit it well and predictably - and transfer that same swing to every full swing club in your bag. Take the time to do it - and forget about your other clubs. Just swing the 6. You will get very good distance, and you will get rid of your swing flaws. But it seems more than apparent that your swing isn't even remotely consistent. Given the dedication you have shown - I'll bet you could improve every club in your bag in about 1-2 weeks - about an hour a day or less.

Once you can hit the 6 decently - just use the same swing on every fullswing club in the bag. Swing them all "like a 6 iron". Drives will be straighter, and irons will be long enough.


Overall it will reduce the clutter of your game - and help you to narrow down your focus. 90 is not that hard to break.

[J Jack]

Have you gotten any second opinions (that is, have you seen another teacher over those 4 years)?

Again, no offense is meant, but it seems like you're working very hard on tee shots and not getting much back in return.

I think the 6 iron advice is good, but I'd also hit driver or 3-wood because of the different angle of attack off the tee.

Again, good luck

[bortass]

[quote name='J Jack' timestamp='1308600558' post='3322057']
Have you gotten any second opinions (that is, have you seen another teacher over those 4 years)?

Again, no offense is meant, but it seems like you're working very hard on tee shots and not getting much back in return.

I think the 6 iron advice is good, but I'd also hit driver or 3-wood because of the different angle of attack off the tee.

Again, good luck


[/quote]

No offense taken. Questions/comments are always welcome. Getting other perspectives helps. You never know when something will click.

I really don't get a chance to work on my tee shots. The range is irons only. The only time i get to work with my driver and 4w is when working with the pro. I spend most of my range time with my SW in my hand. So it's not like I spend all days banging driver like the stereotypical range rat. I yap about it more then anything because I feel like it's the biggest weakness right now. So it gets more airtime then my irons, since those are getting alot better.

The tee shots are something that I'd say evolves and changes over time. It might depend on when you started to follow my posts about my golf game. My original thread of trying to break 100 had me teeing off with a 7w and topping it 125 yards and a good shot was 170 but my average was about 146. I eventually moved up to my 3w and used that quite a bit. I think I used the 3w for a few years and only hit my driver on #9 because I could slice it over the trees that guard the corner. I eventually hit draws two rounds in row with the driver instead of my instaslice last year. So i started to use it.

A previous teacher told me years ago that I needed to learn to hit my driver, I teed off with a 5i at the time in an attempt to keep the ball in play. So I finally started to use it last summer. I'd have good shots and bad shots, just like with my 3w. I think the round I finally broke 100 with last year was not a good driving round. It was good enough to get by.

Earlier this year I started to really pull hook all my irons and my tee shot regardless of the club. The pull hooks were killing me. So we backed off my very strong grip from my days of slicing all my clubs to a more neutral one. That's when my driver became a slice machine again. My irons rarely slice though. The pull is still the most common miss with an iron. So I've been helter skelter off the tee this year. Last Monday I hit 7 of 7 fairways in my league with an average distance of 208.4 yards, gotta love OOBGolf for stats. In my tourney I only had 3 solid drives, and the rest sliced. Tonight my driver was a slice machine. So I put in back in the bag after three holes and used my 4w instead.

The main reason I talk about my tee shots is that if I get off the tee in a playable spot AND with a playable distance to my scores are lower. We've fixed my flip for the most part, I spent alot of time working on the flip, lol. I feel like my irons are good enough now to get me where I need to go. My putting until recently has been real good. But I need a decent tee shot to set things up.

I will say that there is another component to the tee shot issues when I lose a ball right that I never had to deal with before. I am hitting the ball more solid now. I've seriously had some second shots from places I've never been before because I hit the ball 20 yards further and higher, so I carry more trees then years past. Alot of times the slice was a killer because it was short of the spots where my second shot gets completely blocked off.

I also shouldn't say I slice my driver. The typical slice starts left and curves way right of target. I hit a ball straight that starts right and then curves more right.

[bortass]

[quote name='ChipDriver' timestamp='1308589984' post='3321470']
Bortass:


I have followed your travails in breaking 90 and it seems that you are inconsistent with your swing. Namely that you seem to have no consistency and have different expectations about how you hit your clubs.

I will resuggest: learn to love your 6 iron. Learn to hit it well and predictably - and transfer that same swing to every full swing club in your bag. Take the time to do it - and forget about your other clubs. Just swing the 6. You will get very good distance, and you will get rid of your swing flaws. But it seems more than apparent that your swing isn't even remotely consistent. Given the dedication you have shown - I'll bet you could improve every club in your bag in about 1-2 weeks - about an hour a day or less.

Once you can hit the 6 decently - just use the same swing on every fullswing club in the bag. Swing them all "like a 6 iron". Drives will be straighter, and irons will be long enough.


Overall it will reduce the clutter of your game - and help you to narrow down your focus. 90 is not that hard to break.
[/quote]


I'd say my swing is inconsistant. It's definately not grooved right now. I am learning a few things though about certain clubs though.

My irons will miss left with a pull hook that once it lands starts rolling on a curve left or I will miss right with a push, very little curve to the ball. I'm coming to learn that I tend to aim more right then I think, so my misses right with an iron are close to where I have my clubface aimed at address. My distance mishits are mostly from hitting the ball thin. I can hit it heavy but those are rare and happen more when it's wet and I sink or I'm in deeper rough.

My wedges are going longer then expected because of the type of shot I'm playing. I deloft them at address, bring the club back partway, and then tend to make very solid contact. So I'm probably turning my SW into a 9i and hitting a punch with a smaller swing. So it goes about 100 yards. A full swing is shorter but much higher because I'm not delofting the club so much.

My driver will miss right with a rare pull.

My 4w off the tee tends to be similar to the driver mishits but now for something that happened tonight.

We played the back in the league. #10 I hit my ball and it's my normal miss right about 204. On 11, I hit a real high baby draw but only 175ish. 12, I miss right into a hazard. 13, is a par 3.

So on 14 I hit my 4w. It's a slight push down the right side(ob right), the ball hits some tree branches that overhang the fairway. The ball bounces off the branches OB. The flight was straight, no curve to it and if I don't hit the tree branches, I'm fine. The ball was 3 yards inbounds when it hit the branches. So unlike the driver it didn't curve right.

15 is a par 3, so on 16 I hit my 4w. It's a high draw 193 into the fairway. On 17, I hit my 4w, an even higher draw 212 into the middle of the fairway. On 18, I setup on trhe right side of the teebox and aim left. The ball flew straight left into the trees. I tried to compensate for the curve right but the 4w isn't curving off the tee for me....

So I think i will just use my 4w off the tee except on 9, since I seem to be able to hit the fade around the corner on that one hole.

I'm also starting to realize that my swing doesn't have alot of the real common faults, which it did years ago. My swing is shallow. I come from the inside too much. I start my weight left on the backswing and it keeps going left. The typical hacker you read about is too steep, OTT out to in, and doesn't get any weight left.

The pro worked with me after the league tonight. I need to feel like my weight is going way right on my backswing. In reality, I'm just staying behind the ball. Another key is trying to get my right shoulder down. I tend to rotate them pretty level, so I almost never do the move you see where the right shoulder dips lower then the left on the downswing and into impact.

The release is still an issue. The thought is I don't release because if I get ahead of the ball and come from too far inside a release will hook the ball. I've been doing a reverse roll, which essentially is preventing the release the club, so the face stays open. That move is no longer working for me. So I need to figure out how to let my right forearm crossover my left.

I have some drills and will be working on this stuff. I can easily use my 6i for it. That's probably a good club to use. Save some wear and tear on my 7i, which is used alot in lessons and on the range, though the SW is supplanting the 7i in range sessions. Also the 6i will curve more then a SW, so I'll have a better picture of the ball flight.

[ChipDriver]

Hi Bortass:

No offense - you have way too much information going on up there in your brain. The reason you're hitting it all over the place is that you don't have a reliable swing. Hence again - practice your full swing 6 iron....no drills and other crap...just your full swing 6 until you can hit it reliably the same. After a short while if you can hit your 6 decently straight just use that same swing on all clubs. 1 basic swing for all clubs...just one. Listen to Jack Nicklaus - he's a pretty good golfer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4smKIu2uARU


One final suggestion to help you mentaly - it's a Fred Funk strategy (albeit altered): play a few rounds from the RED tees. It will build up confidence and help you to score. Take a hybrid as your longest club and make the 6 iron your longest iron. Take an 8 iron, a PW and a SW and a putter. Try to take as many full swings as possible (no partial swings)...even if you fly the green it is easier to chip it back, rather than try to hit a partial swing and duff it.

I bet you break 90 from the reds inside of the 3 times you try it....and then after you have done it (assuming you are diligent about your 6 iron) moving back a set of tees will not be incredibly different.

Good luck.

[sshadow2]

Hey Bortass. Do you understand the ball flight laws? In short, shut the face of your driver and swing as you do now -- what causes the push slice ( right then more right ). Keep the neutral grip and don't use your hands to manipulate anything.

I deal with the same issue and now I hit drives very straight or with a very slight left to right path.

If you consistently aim square but keep pushing or push slicing, you are not releasing (passively) enough. The closed face will square you at impact. Also check how tense your grip, arms, and shoulders are. They could be the culprits.

[bortass]

[quote name='sshadow2' timestamp='1308628314' post='3323362']
Hey Bortass. Do you understand the ball flight laws? In short, shut the face of your driver and swing as you do now -- what causes the push slice ( right then more right ). Keep the neutral grip and don't use your hands to manipulate anything.

I deal with the same issue and now I hit drives very straight or with a very slight left to right path.

If you consistently aim square but keep pushing or push slicing, you are not releasing (passively) enough. The closed face will square you at impact. Also check how tense your grip, arms, and shoulders are. They could be the culprits.
[/quote]

Yup, I'm up to speed on the new ball flight laws. Path dictates direction and relationship of the face to the path dictates the curve. I've tried closing the face of my driver and it just smothered the ball. However this was on the course and I only tried it 1 or 2 times because of the results. I will close it alot less and give it a shot. The times I open the face to hit the fade on #9, I barely open it. The times I closed it, it was pretty closed.

I do not release. I delay it with a fullswing, reverse roll... Sometimes I completely hold off my release but that's when I do it on purpose with certain shots. The hard part with the release for me is I just don't understand it. I've seen videos like Monte's and read about it in a number of places. It sounds like it's this magical thing that happens on it's own if you let it. Too bad I have no idea what it is I'm supposed to let happen. I know it what the release motion is, but haven't figured out how to let my arms do it.

Tension is present. Not so much in my grip but my arms. I dunno what tension in the shoulders feels like. What I need is a better preshot routine. I figure out my line, setup, pause over the ball, and swing. No practice swings or anything. I should add a single practice swing to just get the feeling of loose arms. I do know what that feels like. It may help me with the tension side of things.

[bortass]

[quote name='ChipDriver' timestamp='1308626289' post='3323280']
Hi Bortass:

No offense - you have way too much information going on up there in your brain. The reason you're hitting it all over the place is that you don't have a reliable swing. Hence again - practice your full swing 6 iron....no drills and other crap...just your full swing 6 until you can hit it reliably the same. After a short while if you can hit your 6 decently straight just use that same swing on all clubs. 1 basic swing for all clubs...just one. Listen to Jack Nicklaus - he's a pretty good golfer:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4smKIu2uARU"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=4smKIu2uARU[/url]


One final suggestion to help you mentaly - it's a Fred Funk strategy (albeit altered): play a few rounds from the RED tees. It will build up confidence and help you to score. Take a hybrid as your longest club and make the 6 iron your longest iron. Take an 8 iron, a PW and a SW and a putter. Try to take as many full swings as possible (no partial swings)...even if you fly the green it is easier to chip it back, rather than try to hit a partial swing and duff it.

I bet you break 90 from the reds inside of the 3 times you try it....and then after you have done it (assuming you are diligent about your 6 iron) moving back a set of tees will not be incredibly different.

Good luck.
[/quote]

None taken. I do a pretty good job of leaving all the mechanics on the range. Conciously thinking about what to do stays there. During a round, I may think about something before a tee shot based on what I'm working on. I don't paralyze myself on the course thinking about 5 things when I'm swing the club. I really can't tell you what I do in a swing. Saturday I hit a few draws and alot of push slices. I have no idea what was different.

That said you are spot on. My best golf has always been those days when I feel like I'm just out there swinging the club. Hit the ball, find it, hit it again. My question is what creates that feeling? My take is a good start. Good shots breed more good shots because then you can just swing the club. I push slice my driver and I start thinking about it on the next hole and it's lurking in the back of my mind. That's when I start thinking to much.

I've seen the limited club selection strategy a few times. I'll give it a shot. Regardless of the score it'll help my game. That's why some coaches have their teams do what you just said on practice days. Hell, the guy I'm going to partner with played 18 with just his 6i last week. No other clubs, he even putted with it. I think he shot 5 over par or so.

[mhroche]

[b]Apologies in advance for the the wordiness below![/b]

Hello Bortass,

New to the forum, very first post, and the most interesting thread I have seen so far (very humanistic, not elitist, etc). In fact it is inspiring to me to create a thread of my own with a similar concept, as I am also trying to break 90. However for me this is only my first year taking golf seriously, and the 3rd summer playing at all (I only played par 3's prior to this year).

If I have no penalty strokes in a round I am at about 95 for most Par 71/72, 69/120 type courses. If I put a driver OB a couple times in a round I am obviously at 100+.

So anyways, here are some thoughts I have after reading your 7 pages of posts.

1) I love stats and numbers and analysis, but your rounds would be easier to read if you kept them to just the facts (ie: "I hit the 7i fat" vs "I hit the 7i fat, perhaps because ...<fill in the blank>")

2) Due to your record keeping you are quick to catch trends "Driver is slicing the past couple of weeks" or (in my case) "I am repeatedly chunking my longer irons after sweet tee shots"
2a) Which leaves me to question, [b]what actions are you taking to improve and adjust and correct get better (outside of your pro instructor)?
[/b] 2b)[b] What I am getting at is that it seems to me that at the level we are at more than anything we need to practicing at the driving range (a range where you can actually drive at) A LOT to develop a consistent swing[/b] and to play around and tweak things ourselves to understand what changes impact what things in our swings. This is especially true with all the lesson information that can be found online.
2c) I am preparing for my first lesson/visit to the local GolfTek outfit (tomorrow!) to see what I look like on tape, it is my expectation that with the amount of practice I am putting in (not long sessions, but pretty consistent several times a week) and at least 18 holes a weekend that the lessons I will be paying for will give me the final bit of consistency in my swing to put me at 90, and hopefully increase my distances as well.[b] My point is that it does not seem like you are seeing resuts like I would expect you to for as much as you work with a PGA pro teacher.

[/b]3) I too work in an office for long hours as a tech consultant, impacts my free time to practice, so one thing that I have leveraged from work is[b] building a plan (project plan!) to get myself to where I want to be for golf, to constantly be getting better through measurable goals[/b]. It is my expectation that the instructor I see tomorrow sits down with me and helps me rebuild a plan for me, and to me it is shocking that your pro has not done that with you.

4) I know you have done a lot of work with your current iron set, and people will argue that buying new clubs is never the answer, but [b]there are more forgiving clubs out there than the ones you currently have[/b]. The Taylor Made Super Launch Burners (got mine 175 barely used) for example, actually launches the damn ball way further then I expected with a nice easy and slow swing. They are additionally very very very forgiving. They are meant for the high handicapper, yours are geared for mid handicappers. Regarding fitted clubs, they are only as good as the person who is swinging them. If your swing is constantly changing to the point where the lie needs to be adjusted then you got get the swing down before they are fitted so the measurements can be accurate.

5) Last word here, maybe think about changes up the course from time to time? Maybe you will find another course that for whatever reason just works and you break 90! Also, I am sure you know this but conditioning required between 9 holes that your practice with and 18 holes that you are trying to break 90 on is pretty significant if you are walking and carrying your clubs. Maybe that is impacting you?

And of course as in any ysporting event, [b]have confidence[/b]. I am going to break 90 this summer, it is going to happen. I know this because breaking 90 for me doesn't require a miracle, just 1 round with no penalty strokes and no major chunked 2nd shots with my irons. [b]What is it that must happen for you to break 90?

Cheers!

Mark[/b]

[bortass]

[quote name='mhroche' timestamp='1308666837' post='3324094']
[b]Apologies in advance for the the wordiness below![/b]

2) Due to your record keeping you are quick to catch trends "Driver is slicing the past couple of weeks" or (in my case) "I am repeatedly chunking my longer irons after sweet tee shots"
2a) Which leaves me to question, [b]what actions are you taking to improve and adjust and correct get better (outside of your pro instructor)?
[/b][/quote]

I go through the forums and read books to get a better grasp of things. I did some video work of my own this winter. There are a few DVDs I have used as well. I normally mention the trend to the pro and get his take on possible causes based on my swing.

[quote]


2b)[b] What I am getting at is that it seems to me that at the level we are at more than anything we need to practicing at the driving range (a range where you can actually drive at) A LOT to develop a consistent swing[/b] and to play around and tweak things ourselves to understand what changes impact what things in our swings. This is especially true with all the lesson information that can be found online.
2c) I am preparing for my first lesson/visit to the local GolfTek outfit (tomorrow!) to see what I look like on tape, it is my expectation that with the amount of practice I am putting in (not long sessions, but pretty consistent several times a week) and at least 18 holes a weekend that the lessons I will be paying for will give me the final bit of consistency in my swing to put me at 90, and hopefully increase my distances as well.[b] My point is that it does not seem like you are seeing resuts like I would expect you to for as much as you work with a PGA pro teacher.
[/b][/quote]

Everyone is different. I'm not a natural athlete and spent a good 6 years ingraining a bad swing. To put things in perspective it took me about 9 years from the time I first picked up clubs to the time I finally broke 100. This is my fourth summer of lessons and it's night and day. I also play volleyball and it's taken me years to be compentent at lower levels of play. I only mention it as another example of how I don't pickup athletic endevours quickly.

[quote]

3) I too work in an office for long hours as a tech consultant, impacts my free time to practice, so one thing that I have leveraged from work is[b] building a plan (project plan!) to get myself to where I want to be for golf, to constantly be getting better through measurable goals[/b]. It is my expectation that the instructor I see tomorrow sits down with me and helps me rebuild a plan for me, and to me it is shocking that your pro has not done that with you.
[/quote]

I hate planning and measureable goals. I'm more of a developer/problem solving IT guy. PM material I'm not. SO I just have broad goals. Break 100, break 90. No timeframe. I understand that all goals should be S.M.A.R.T. but that's not how I process things /shrug. I wouldn't be surprised if i have a touch of ADD in the mix, lol.

[quote]

4) I know you have done a lot of work with your current iron set, and people will argue that buying new clubs is never the answer, but [b]there are more forgiving clubs out there than the ones you currently have[/b]. The Taylor Made Super Launch Burners (got mine 175 barely used) for example, actually launches the damn ball way further then I expected with a nice easy and slow swing. They are additionally very very very forgiving. They are meant for the high handicapper, yours are geared for mid handicappers. Regarding fitted clubs, they are only as good as the person who is swinging them. If your swing is constantly changing to the point where the lie needs to be adjusted then you got get the swing down before they are fitted so the measurements can be accurate.
[/quote]

I have gone to a few demo days the last two years and never found iron that performed as well as my current set even with the bad specs.

[quote]

5) Last word here, maybe think about changes up the course from time to time? Maybe you will find another course that for whatever reason just works and you break 90! Also, I am sure you know this but conditioning required between 9 holes that your practice with and 18 holes that you are trying to break 90 on is pretty significant if you are walking and carrying your clubs. Maybe that is impacting you?

And of course as in any ysporting event, [b]have confidence[/b]. I am going to break 90 this summer, it is going to happen. I know this because breaking 90 for me doesn't require a miracle, just 1 round with no penalty strokes and no major chunked 2nd shots with my irons. [b]What is it that must happen for you to break 90?

Cheers!

Mark[/b]
[/quote]

I always walk and use a Clic gear, so 9 vs 18 isn't a big deal. For me to break 90, I need decent tee shots, decent irons, no stupid chipping errors, and decent putting. No rocket science. i just don't put all those things together at once, lol.

[sshadow2]

[quote name='bortass' timestamp='1308657375' post='3323779']
Yup, I'm up to speed on the new ball flight laws. Path dictates direction and relationship of the face to the path dictates the curve. I've tried closing the face of my driver and it just smothered the ball. However this was on the course and I only tried it 1 or 2 times because of the results. I will close it alot less and give it a shot. The times I open the face to hit the fade on #9, I barely open it. The times I closed it, it was pretty closed.
[/quote]

You know I'm not a teacher, but I study the heck out of this thing...

If you are smothering the ball, you closed it too much. You really only have about 5* to work with. (Draw drivers are only about 2-3*). You have to ensure that the face is less open to your path than what it is. If you swing out to in, then you will have more of a fade instead of a slice.


[quote name='bortass' timestamp='1308657375' post='3323779']
I do not release. I delay it with a fullswing, reverse roll... Sometimes I completely hold off my release but that's when I do it on purpose with certain shots. The hard part with the release for me is I just don't understand it. I've seen videos like Monte's and read about it in a number of places. It sounds like it's this magical thing that happens on it's own if you let it. Too bad I have no idea what it is I'm supposed to let happen. I know it what the release motion is, but haven't figured out how to let my arms do it.
[/quote]

Releasing is when your turning your club from open to closed in the swing. It's pretty natural and occurs automatically if your are not tense in the arms, hands, or shoulders. You can force the release in two ways, with the hands (more timing oriented), or letting the arms swing the clubs pass your sternum. The latter is how armsy swingers do it. You see it when a player slows down their body turn to let the arms catch up and pass their sternum, letting the force generated by the club complete their turn through to finish (my best description). The arms look crossed over each other right after impact. Mark Wilson, who's on the cover of this month's issue of Golf Magazine is an example of that. VJ is another.

Personally, I am a rotational swing advocate (Slicefixer/DFW1500 style), but I hit teed shots like this.

[quote name='bortass' timestamp='1308657375' post='3323779']
Tension is present. Not so much in my grip but my arms. I dunno what tension in the shoulders feels like. What I need is a better preshot routine. I figure out my line, setup, pause over the ball, and swing. No practice swings or anything. I should add a single practice swing to just get the feeling of loose arms. I do know what that feels like. It may help me with the tension side of things.
[/quote]

I too didn't do practice swings, but then I decided to try full speed ones with my driver because my tee shots were really hurting my round. But I didn't do just one, I didn't stop until it felt right. I didn't care if at each shot, there were a different number of them (I'd get it by the 4th at most). I did it until it felt right and getting that swoosh sound after the impact point in my swing. Successfully getting that sound usually means that I'm relaxed enough.

Once I got it, I quickly hit the shot (I try within 8 secs) before I forget the feeling. That's when I started hitting it nicely.

Now, I do practice swings all the time, even on the range. The tee shot has been one of the strongest parts of my game since. I definitely feel I'm going to reach my goals this year.

Hope this helps. It did for me.

[ChipDriver]

[quote name='bortass' timestamp='1308658375' post='3323808']
[quote name='ChipDriver' timestamp='1308626289' post='3323280']
Hi Bortass:

No offense - you have way too much information going on up there in your brain. The reason you're hitting it all over the place is that you don't have a reliable swing. Hence again - practice your full swing 6 iron....no drills and other crap...just your full swing 6 until you can hit it reliably the same. After a short while if you can hit your 6 decently straight just use that same swing on all clubs. 1 basic swing for all clubs...just one. Listen to Jack Nicklaus - he's a pretty good golfer:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4smKIu2uARU"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=4smKIu2uARU[/url]


One final suggestion to help you mentaly - it's a Fred Funk strategy (albeit altered): play a few rounds from the RED tees. It will build up confidence and help you to score. Take a hybrid as your longest club and make the 6 iron your longest iron. Take an 8 iron, a PW and a SW and a putter. Try to take as many full swings as possible (no partial swings)...even if you fly the green it is easier to chip it back, rather than try to hit a partial swing and duff it.

I bet you break 90 from the reds inside of the 3 times you try it....and then after you have done it (assuming you are diligent about your 6 iron) moving back a set of tees will not be incredibly different.

Good luck.
[/quote]

None taken. I do a pretty good job of leaving all the mechanics on the range. Conciously thinking about what to do stays there. During a round, I may think about something before a tee shot based on what I'm working on. I don't paralyze myself on the course thinking about 5 things when I'm swing the club. I really can't tell you what I do in a swing. Saturday I hit a few draws and alot of push slices. I have no idea what was different.

That said you are spot on. My best golf has always been those days when I feel like I'm just out there swinging the club. Hit the ball, find it, hit it again. My question is what creates that feeling? My take is a good start. Good shots breed more good shots because then you can just swing the club. I push slice my driver and I start thinking about it on the next hole and it's lurking in the back of my mind. That's when I start thinking to much.

I've seen the limited club selection strategy a few times. I'll give it a shot. Regardless of the score it'll help my game. That's why some coaches have their teams do what you just said on practice days. Hell, the guy I'm going to partner with played 18 with just his 6i last week. No other clubs, he even putted with it. I think he shot 5 over par or so.
[/quote]

Thanks for taking my comments constructively - as intended.

I tell my kid: "Work on your fundamentals - and let the results take care of themselves. Good fundamentals usually lead to good results." You can apply that to school, to sports, to relationships...whatever. But hitting "only 6 irons" is a physical manifestation of what I am talking about.

If you understand the simplicity of what I'm saying (and how Annika Sorenstam probably feels): you want to feel like you've swung your 6 iron about 50-60 times during the round (even though you're holding a PW or a driver...it's still the "same 6 iron swing"). The rest of the strokes are putts and chips.

It will unclutter your mind.

[BubblerGolf]

If I am having trouble during a tournament, I just use my 5 iron for every shot. Tee shot, fairway, and chipping. I feel like if I can hit my best club over and over with adjusted distances, I can expand to other clubs. BTW, I am also trying to break 90. Shot 90, 91, 89 in May, then started lessons. Since lessons, my rounds have been 117, 137, 171, 154, 131, 117. My confidence is shot. Can anyone help me?

[wwjbd24]

yep, I was just like you, shooting high 120s, but your problem is confidence I think, now take my advice with a grain of salt, i'm shooting 100s now, but my confidence skyrocketed with my putting ability. I put in a few hours learning to read putts and lagging well, to the point where I'm upset with not being within inches of the cup from 30ft away. sinking a few long putts is the easiest way to cure your mental issues because it sets you up to go into the next hole with a good attitude.

Also if I had to choose one club it wouldnt be a 5 iron, especially around the green. How about a 5 iron and a wedge or something, loftier clubs help me with confidence because I find them much easier to hit, and I hit them straighter. Nothing like the feeling of holing out!

good luck! not sure if I helped at all!

[sshadow2]

[quote name='BubblerGolf' timestamp='1308694580' post='3325358']
If I am having trouble during a tournament, I just use my 5 iron for every shot. Tee shot, fairway, and chipping. I feel like if I can hit my best club over and over with adjusted distances, I can expand to other clubs. BTW, I am also trying to break 90. Shot 90, 91, 89 in May, then started lessons. Since lessons, my rounds have been 117, 137, 171, 154, 131, 117. My confidence is shot. Can anyone help me?
[/quote]

From 89 to 171!!??! A 9 or more on every single hole? You jivin'... You almost had me.

Anyway, you can't treat the course like the range with a million swing thoughts in your head. You go there with what you got.

BubblerGolf,

Start an new thread about your issues. Let's leave this one to bortass's progress.

[bortass]

[quote name='BubblerGolf' timestamp='1308694580' post='3325358']
If I am having trouble during a tournament, I just use my 5 iron for every shot. Tee shot, fairway, and chipping. I feel like if I can hit my best club over and over with adjusted distances, I can expand to other clubs. BTW, I am also trying to break 90. Shot 90, 91, 89 in May, then started lessons. Since lessons, my rounds have been 117, 137, 171, 154, 131, 117. My confidence is shot. Can anyone help me?
[/quote]


Relax and don't tinker too much on the course. If I tried to make an adjustment after every bad swing, I'd be all over the place. I may try to understand why I mishit it but that is within the parameters of my swing or what I'm working on. For example, I don't change my grip after I pull or slice a ball.

[bortass]

I played 18 earlier today. I brought the entire bag with me and played my normal tees. I had planned on playing with my partner for the member-member but he had another engagement, so I decided to just play a normal round. I did add in a single practice swing on all but one of my tee shots, most of my irons, and most of my chips.

Here is how it went: bogey, bogey, par, dbl, bogey, bogey, snowman, bogey, bogey on the front for a 47. Dbl, dbl, dbl, dbl, triple, triple, birdie, dbl, par for a 51 on the back.

So on #1 I teed off with my 4w. I ducked hooked it into the left trees 90 yards off the tee. A hook? Well I must have released the club, I thought to myself. I get to #2 and decided to try the driver. I take my practice swing and get that feeling of my weight being right. I then hit a draw 238 down the left side of the fairway. On 3 a draw 216, 5 was a low fade 209, 7 I push slice it into the right trees and get my snowman. 8 is a low draw down the left side 203. 9 is a low fade 173 around the corner. 10 is a high overfade 200 yards into the right rough. 11 is a push that lands in the rough and kicks close to 90 degrees right under some trees, 214. 12 is a high fade 220, middle of the fairway. 14 I hit a push that lands inbounds and kicks right and OB. I hit a provisional and it's a high draw 235 into the middle of the fairway. 16, I hit a high fade 225 middle of the fairway. 17 is 223 and a draw into the fairway. 18 is a low pull slice but I was aimed way left, so I was in the fairway.

The only drive I wasn't happy with was the one on #7. That ball started right and curved right and into the trees. The push on 11 and 14 didn't bother me, I didn't get enough of that feeling of my weight being right. I hit 8 drives that I would consider to be very solid, just based on my game.

So why the high score?

First the new backswing is alot different then what I'm used to. So my irons were not exactly on. I hit a number thin, however I also hit some real good ones. My putting is real bad right now. My last 20 rounds I'm averaging 1.91 putts per hole but my last 5 rounds have been between 2 and 2.25 putts per hole. I had 36 putts today with 3 3 putts and a 4 putt.... I'm not sure why my putting is going south on me. It may be in my head, but I dunno. My chipping was a bit scattered as well. I put balls out of play on two holes on the back, one mentioned above and the other was a pond ball on a par 3. Both led to triples.

Now the highlights.

#9 - I hit my driver around the corner. I have a good lie and hit my 4w. It's a high draw that went 211 and put me 47 yards out on a par 5. I hit a pitch with my LW that I hear spin. It lands left of the flag and rolls a foot towards it. I'm 14 feet away with a birdie putt and I blow it 5 feet past the hole. I then leave the comeback an inch short.

#16 - par 4 and the #6 hcp hole. I hit a high fade with my driver 225 and my ball is in the fairway about 4 yards right of the 100 yard marker (dogleg right hole). I'm going uphill and hit my GW. I make good contact and the ball lands on the green. I can't see anything because i'm so far below the green. I just know it lands on from the sound and I see it bounce up into view one time. I get up the hill and my ball is sitting 5 feet short of the hole and i drain the birdie putt. I have never birdied this hole before. I would have bought someone a beer if they were with me, lol.

#18 - par 5. I hit my driver low and right into the fairway on the backside of the hill. I pretty much made the hole as long as possible w/o going into the right trees. The ball is above my feet a bit and I'm hitting into the wind. I hit a high draw with my 4w 189 into the fairway on the right side. I'm 151 out and wind in my face. I go with my 6i which I hit a little thin and it lands short of the green and rolls on. I'm 46 feet from the hole and leave my putt 2 feet short. So I get the par.

The pro shot some video of the new swing after my round. I'll post it if I can get a copy. Staying behind the ball is making a big difference already and we first started to work on it a week ago. Now it's going to be trying to get the hip slide going. I'm staying centered but my hips don't move forward as they should.

So I just put together my best 18 holes this year. Kinda sad since I expected to be scoring better then this but I'm excited. I'm seeing some of my potential. That's what I love about golf. I try to think of my good shots because if I did it once I can do it again, it's just a matter of time.

[sshadow2]

Nice to see you are now releasing a bit more. You are starting to post some pretty good yardages.

[ChipDriver]

What tees are you playing? What yardage? 6,000?