TOUR TEMPO

[A.G.Blade]

book

I bought this book a few years ago and then it just dissappeared. Found it hidden behind the drawers of my nightstand. started reading it and seems very interesting, haven't gotten very far, anyone use this or have and feedback on it?

[SeekonkHolen1]

I have used it with very good results. There was a thread on here a while ago about it. I have posted the link below. Also, Tour Tempo has been cited quite a few times on the site for training aids etc. If you put Tour Tempo in quotes in the search bar you will find a bunch of posts. I found it to be a very useful book and actually put it on my ipod to use at the range. Give it a shot. I do not think you will be disappointed with the results.



http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/144690-tour-tempo/page__st__30__p__2757292__hl__%22tour+tempo%22__fromsearch__1#entry2757292


Jorge

[Cmartingolf]

AG,

I use JC Video when I'm teaching and it has a counter on the screen. It easily allows side-by-side analysis. I had an epiphany around 2001 when I was teaching a guy at my club and he always complained about "being too fast." Well, I put him up against Ernie Els. I synced the swings so they started back at exactly the same time. The "Big Easy" was already at impact before my "too fast" member was near the back of his backswing. From that day, I always check a golfers "ratios" and often find that their backswing is not fast enough to support an athletic reciprocating motion.

This guy couldn't believe that I was trying to speed up his backswing after seeing this. Improving the pace of his backswing improved his action a ton. His original swing looked more like he was trying to kill a shifty chicken with an axe. His "quicker" swing was way more synced up. Trouble was, he couldn't believe it; how out of control he felt. A lot of club golfers always try and "slow things down." Funny, I never try and slow things down.

I think the concepts in the book are fantastic and will help most golfers.

[happyroman]

[quote name='Cmartingolf' timestamp='1297096142' post='2957731']
His original swing looked more like he was trying to kill a shifty chicken with an axe.

[/quote]

Good thing I had finished my coffee when I read this, or it would have ended up all over my screen.

As Martin alluded to in his post, one must give up control in order to gain control in golf. If we allow the momentum generated by the pivot to swing the arms and club back and through, and give them up to gravity and inertia, physics will take care of the rest for us.

This giving up control results in much more consistency than we could ever create by [i][b]trying to control the swing[/b][/i], which is a manipulation and nothing more.

For me, the key point in the book was that, while different players swing at different speeds, the rhythm of their swings, expressed as ratio of the duration of the backswing to the downswing, is almost exactly the same for all good swings (i.e., 3:1).

I like to think, 1-2-3, 1-2-3, over and over while swing back and through without stopping (see the drill on pages 82-83 in Hogans [i]Five Lessons[/i]). The clubhead passes the low point in each direction on the first count of each three beat grouping. Sometimes, I will use a metronome in practice, starting with a speed that is fairly slow, gradually speeding up until things start to go a little haywire, then backing off until I find a tempo that is comfortable for me.

An added benefit is that I cannot have a million self instructions going through my head when I am simply focusing on allowing the swing to stay in sync with the 1-2-3, 1-2-3.

[Smack Daddy]

I was into the book a few years ago but didn't have any real way to monitor my tempo.

Last summer I decided that as I now had a camera that was perfect for the job it was time to give it another try. My tempo was very consistent at 24/9. Using the book's ideas I worked at getting to 24/8. In terms of clubhead travel, that one frame is actually a lot of travel.

When I got one frame quicker down I found I hit the ball much better. Think the book has merit myself.

[MBA-J]

Swing...set...through.


Swing...set...through.


The end.

[Body_Visions]

I read the book last year and some of it made sense. I think most people get a false sense of how fast a good player swings because they are in synch and hit the ball in the center of the face.

I remember the book saying that Els actually swung faster from start to finish counted by frames with a high speed camera that quite a few players that seemed to swing much quicker. I believe Norman was the example.

If anyone is interested, I saw the kit on TGW for less than twenty dollars. I think the original price was $99.99.

[jons1]

..... and then you watch nancy lopez and realize this stuff has exceptions... and many of them. what tour tempo really does, in my opinion, is gets your mind off of positions and onto something that is more realistic to control in the brief time you have during a swing.... which is beep beep beep, 123, etc. yes, even the slowest swings on tour are faster then the majority of amateurs, perception is everything

[stryper]

[quote name='golfpros1' timestamp='1297162006' post='2959851']
..... [u]and then you watch nancy lopez and realize this stuff has exceptions[/u]... and many of them. what tour tempo really does, in my opinion, is gets your mind off of positions and onto something that is more realistic to control in the brief time you have during a swing.... which is beep beep beep, 123, etc. yes, even the slowest swings on tour are faster then the majority of amateurs, perception is everything
[/quote]
Novosel acknowledges this. But such exceptions are just that, [i]exceptions[/i]; the general rule still holds true.

As to the rest of your post, I think you are probably correct in that it does take your mind off positions, which golfers aren't very good at controling anyway.

[dlam]

I bought this book 10 days ago and read it and played golf.I tried to count 123 or 321 in my swing and though my timing was off in the first few holes it did seem to work better as I was able to feel the rhythm by the last few holes.
It did keep my mind away from mechanics which can paralysis my swing/stroke but not the instant holy grail I was hoping.
Tempo/rhythm isn't mention in many books. E Ells has a section in his book using same method using 1 as the backswing(swing) 2 as the top/transition (set) and 3 as the through swing.

When I tried my 1 2 3 were too uniform. It's more like a waltz beat that S Snead describes l
1....2.3.....1....2.3

[dlam]

Another comment that I like to make is that the 3:1 ratio of the backswing to forward swing is a rhythmic pattern not tempo.
tempo is the overall speed of the swing. All PGA pros have fast tempo bout a 1 sec. with slight variation by .95 to 1.2 sec
Interesting was that Ernie Els's swing is faster than G Norman's but looks slower to the eye.

[dlam]

There isn't much study on pitching, chipping or putting in the tour tempo book.
The book did say that Tiger's pitching was measured but wasn't the 3:1 ratio but closer to 1.5:1 or 1:1
This makes a bit of sense as I didn't expect the same rhythm with the short game shots as with the full swing.
I wish the authors can do some analysis of the top players and see if there is any clear tempo pattern in chipping/pitching.

[exgolfpro]

[quote name='A.G.Blade' timestamp='1297075131' post='2957398']
I bought this book a few years ago and then it just dissappeared. Found it hidden behind the drawers of my nightstand. started reading it and seems very interesting, haven't gotten very far, anyone use this or have and feedback on it?
[/quote]

I've got the book but you can get the tones if you have an iphone. It costs but there is an app for that. Basically saying that the best players in the world all have a similar cadence to their swings. The backswing is 3 segments while the downswing is 1. I think most high handicappers would be shocked to try and keep up with the tempo of a better player. Even the slower of the tour players (have a 27/9 tempo)(the 27 and 9 refer to the number of frames on a video camera)

[jons1]

there is one flaw as i see it in this system, and if i'm way off please explain it to me otherwise, thats the fact that a players tempo is dictated to a degree by their clubhead speed. unless you can swing as fast as the best players in the world from the top down, then your swing tempo ISNT going to be like theirs. In fact, it will end up rushing your transition to try and meet that tempo because you simply can't swing fast enough to get back to the ball for the last BEEP. Seems logical to me but i just don't see how someone with an 80mph driver clubhead speed is going to ever have the same tempo as someone with a 120mph clubhead speed without it truly being physiologically a completely different action and super quick transition.

[A.G.Blade]

[quote name='golfpros1' timestamp='1297291906' post='2963997']
there is one flaw as i see it in this system, and if i'm way off please explain it to me otherwise, thats the fact that a players tempo is dictated to a degree by their clubhead speed. unless you can swing as fast as the best players in the world from the top down, then your swing tempo ISNT going to be like theirs. In fact, it will end up rushing your transition to try and meet that tempo because you simply can't swing fast enough to get back to the ball for the last BEEP. Seems logical to me but i just don't see how someone with an 80mph driver clubhead speed is going to ever have the same tempo as someone with a 120mph clubhead speed without it truly being physiologically a completely different action and super quick transition.



yeah I see your point; if you dont have the mechanics to swing fast...youcan't. But I havn't had a chance to read it yet, just bought a new driver!

[/quote]

[gspjeb]

golfpros1: I guess it depends on perception.....to me (certainly no pro) I would think the opposite is true....the clubhead speed is determined by the tempo and not the other way around. That is, if you have good mechanics. I think the whole point of the system is to get you to swing closer to what the pros swing and if you are physically able you will increase your clubhead speed. I think the variations in clubhead speed have more to do with how deep and flexible some of the pros are able to get in the same amount of time and how they are able to maintain lag.

What I found is that to match the tempos with an increased speed going back, it made me coil much more and my arms had to keep going up as my lower body was already turning back to the target (most pros do this). I may be in the minority wrt to this system but I gained 10-15 yards a club and my accuracy improved quite a bit. I am about a 5 right now and think I should be able to make it down to scratch this next season...goal anyway. The tempo...for me....has made a huge difference. Good luck

[jons1]

it seems like a good system, because anything that takes your mind off positions and onto something you can control like tempo is a great great thing.... i just see some flaws in the idea that if i choose Els tempo, that i'm doing anything like Els at all (unless I can generate the same clubhead speed) in terms of how "fast" my swing is. in other words, because his swing produces more clubhead speed, i'd have to be swinging a "faster" tempo for my physiology to meet the same tempo check points. i digress. i have the book myself as well... i'll have to bust it out again. practicing to a metronome is a fantastic idea so all the technical stuff aside for a good debate, it's a good tool in the right context.

[happyroman]

[quote name='golfpros1' timestamp='1297291906' post='2963997']
there is one flaw as i see it in this system, and if i'm way off please explain it to me otherwise, thats the fact that a players tempo is dictated to a degree by their clubhead speed. unless you can swing as fast as the best players in the world from the top down, then your swing tempo ISNT going to be like theirs. In fact, it will end up rushing your transition to try and meet that tempo because you simply can't swing fast enough to get back to the ball for the last BEEP. Seems logical to me but i just don't see how someone with an 80mph driver clubhead speed is going to ever have the same tempo as someone with a 120mph clubhead speed without it truly being physiologically a completely different action and super quick transition.





[/quote]

I corresponded with Mr. Novosel after first reading the book about clubhead speed and the Tour Tempo ratios, and basically, there is not a very strong correlation between the two. If there were, a player with a 21:7 tempo would automatically have a faster clubhead speed than a 27:9 player.

Clubhead speed is primarily a factor of the release, IMO. Great players arrive at a point during the downswing where the hands are slightly ahead of the ball while the shaft of the club is still parallel to the ground. The whipping action of the release from that position through impact is what results in the high clubhead speeds achieved by the pros.

Amateurs can match the overall timing of the duration of the swing, but because they have yet to achieve the ideal hitting position, don't produce the same clubhead speeds. I believe that the ratios apply, therefore, more to the body movements, and less to the clubhead.

Following the beeps does a couple of things that are beneficial to most players. First, it helps them learn that, for many, their backswing is slow to the point that it is not really a swing, but a manipulation. There is no fluidity or rhythm, and as a result, no momentum generated.

Second, by focusing on matching one's swing to the beeps, the conscious mind is quieted so that the subconscious mind can learn the correct rhythm of a true swinging motion.

An excellent exercise is to swing the club back and through repeatedly (see pages 82-83 in Hogan's [i]Five Lessons[/i]), either on a level plane like a baseball swing, or on a tilted axis like a golf swing, trying to match the swing to the beeps. The clubhead should pass the low point on the way back on the word [i][b]swing[/b][/i], and again on the downswing on the word [b][i]through[/i][/b]. By repeating this movement over and over, simply focusing on a smooth swing that is controlled by the pivot, one can very quickly adapt to the "faster" movements.

[Tempoman]

[quote name='dlam' timestamp='1297200390' post='2961011']
There isn't much study on pitching, chipping or putting in the tour tempo book.
The book did say that Tiger's pitching was measured but wasn't the 3:1 ratio but closer to 1.5:1 or 1:1
This makes a bit of sense as I didn't expect the same rhythm with the short game shots as with the full swing.
I wish the authors can do some analysis of the top players and see if there is any clear tempo pattern in chipping/pitching.
[/quote]

The Swing Ratio for putting generally is about 2.1-2.2 (Backswing/Downswing to Impact).
For flop shots, not only does Tiger change the Swing Ratio to around 2.1, but he also slows down his overall tempo.
On full shots, TIger's downswing to impact tempo is around 113bpm (8 30fps frames or .267 sec). For flops, it is around 90bpm.

Phil MIckelson has a swing ratio of ~2.8 for Driver and goes down to around 2.4 for a wedge with an overall tempo of 113bpm.
When he putts, Phil's tempo is ~ 100bpm with a 2.1 Swing Ratio.

Pro's do not all conform to the 3:1 Swing Ratio. It is just a ballpark rule of thumb generalized from 30fps video analysis.
Measuring pros swings from television broadcast video taken at 30fps and with a slow shutter speed is like measuring something in inches using a yardstick that is marked in quarter foot increments. The start of the backswing is difficult to ascertain and impact is a blur. But, Tour Tempo is based on these measurements.

Some PGA Tour Pros on the lower end of clubhead speed swing at 90bpm (30/10 in Tour Tempo jargon) which is not offered in the Tour Tempo Set.
David Toms and Vaughn Taylor swing at this tempo.

[dlam]

[quote name='Tempoman' timestamp='1297883171' post='2983566']
[quote name='dlam' timestamp='1297200390' post='2961011']
There isn't much study on pitching, chipping or putting in the tour tempo book.
The book did say that Tiger's pitching was measured but wasn't the 3:1 ratio but closer to 1.5:1 or 1:1
This makes a bit of sense as I didn't expect the same rhythm with the short game shots as with the full swing.
I wish the authors can do some analysis of the top players and see if there is any clear tempo pattern in chipping/pitching.
[/quote]

The Swing Ratio for putting generally is about 2.1-2.2 (Backswing/Downswing to Impact).
For flop shots, not only does Tiger change the Swing Ratio to around 2.1, but he also slows down his overall tempo.
On full shots, TIger's downswing to impact tempo is around 113bpm (8 30fps frames or .267 sec). For flops, it is around 90bpm.

Phil MIckelson has a swing ratio of ~2.8 for Driver and goes down to around 2.4 for a wedge with an overall tempo of 113bpm.
When he putts, Phil's tempo is ~ 100bpm with a 2.1 Swing Ratio.

Pro's do not all conform to the 3:1 Swing Ratio. It is just a ballpark rule of thumb generalized from 30fps video analysis.
Measuring pros swings from television broadcast video taken at 30fps and with a slow shutter speed is like measuring something in inches using a yardstick that is marked in quarter foot increments. The start of the backswing is difficult to ascertain and impact is a blur. But, Tour Tempo is based on these measurements.

Some PGA Tour Pros on the lower end of clubhead speed swing at 90bpm (30/10 in Tour Tempo jargon) which is not offered in the Tour Tempo Set.
David Toms and Vaughn Taylor swing at this tempo.
[/quote]

Thank you for the clarification!
Does the slower tempo 80-90 bpm as opposed to 110-120bpm directly related to clubhead speed? Given that the DS is still roughtly 1:3 ratio to BS
I take it you mean tempo as the speed of the overall swing.