Right forearm takeaway per the transript

[svsvincenzo]

Is the transcript reliable? Is it what Hogan really did?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWKU8o3ewZc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Did Hogan really do this? Who made the transcript of what Hogan is saying in the video? Is transcript is correct/reliable?

[MizunoJoe]

The guy making the claim that Hogan is using the TGM concept of RFT or Right Arm Takeaway is non authorized TGM instructor David Orr. RFT is a backswing technique in which the shoulders are not turned, but rather are moved by fanning the right forearm into a boy scout oath position. Clearly, Hogan didn't do that.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1309841956' post='3365071']
The guy making the claim that Hogan is using the TGM concept of RFT or Right Arm Takeaway is non authorized TGM instructor David Orr. RFT is a backswing technique in which the shoulders are not turned, but rather are moved by fanning the right forearm into a boy scout oath position. Clearly, Hogan didn't do that.
[/quote]

Why clearly? Hogan can either do it either with left forearm or right forearm in takeaway and we will have no idea how he did it. What's the sign or visible clues that he didn't do the RFT? Maybe Hogan is saying "let" or "allow" the right forearm to do this while left arm is doing the pronation in bs?

[JOEGOLFWRX]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1309841956' post='3365071']
[b]The guy making the claim that Hogan...[/b]
[/quote]

its a youtube edited right,

orr audio discussing rft, ..hogan footage stitched in. ..who knows whet orr thinks of hogans takeaway ?

[KevCarter]

Another excellent video by KOC tying Hogan's swing to TGM Concepts. As KOC says in the notes, just his opinions...

Kevin

[jak_bot]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1309841956' post='3365071']
The guy making the claim that Hogan is using the TGM concept of RFT or Right Arm Takeaway is non authorized TGM instructor David Orr. RFT is a backswing technique in which the shoulders are not turned, but rather are moved by fanning the [b]right forearm into a boy scout oath position[/b]. Clearly, Hogan didn't do that.
[/quote]

The boy scout oath position (or scout sign) that I know has the arm bent 90* at the elbow, with the forearm perpendicular to the ground and upper-arm parallel to the ground.

[svsvincenzo]

So what does Hogan really say in the video? Does someone have the unedited version out there where we can hear what Hogan is saying?

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1309843486' post='3365097']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1309841956' post='3365071']
The guy making the claim that Hogan is using the TGM concept of RFT or Right Arm Takeaway is non authorized TGM instructor David Orr. RFT is a backswing technique in which the shoulders are not turned, but rather are moved by fanning the right forearm into a boy scout oath position. Clearly, Hogan didn't do that.
[/quote]

Why clearly? Hogan can either do it either with left forearm or right forearm in takeaway and we will have no idea how he did it. What's the sign or visible clues that he didn't do the RFT? Maybe Hogan is saying "let" or "allow" the right forearm to do this while left arm is doing the pronation in bs?
[/quote]

Looks obvious to me from the miles of Hogan video, that he throws his arms /club to the top with shoulder and hip rotation, but aside from that, he says so in writings and in teaching, such as in the Ed Sullivan mini-lesson in which the arms are swung with body motion and not independent arm motion.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1309868654' post='3365359']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1309841956' post='3365071']
[b]The guy making the claim that Hogan...[/b]
[/quote]

its a youtube edited right,

orr audio discussing rft, ..[b]hogan footage stitched in[/b]. ..who knows whet orr thinks of hogans takeaway ?
[/quote]

You're right, I mistakenly thought Orr was describing this piece of Hogan video. However, Orr, like many TGM apologists, believe that the shoulder turn takeaway is "disruptive", and the RFT is superior, but even the TGM poster-boy, Brian Gay, uses the shoulder turn takeaway, as well as the original TGM prototype, Bobby Clampett.

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1309881872' post='3365895']

Looks obvious to me from the miles of Hogan video,[size="4"][b] that he throws his arms /club to the top with shoulder and hip rotation[/b][/size], but aside from that, he says so in writings and in teaching, such as in the Ed Sullivan mini-lesson in which the arms are swung with body motion and not independent arm motion.
[/quote]

...so the core muscles just throw the arms around in the golf swing?

Theres plenty of conscious rolling, pronating movements away from the ball IMO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gCZCNGs3Gk

[KevCarter]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1309882207' post='3365909']
[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1309868654' post='3365359']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1309841956' post='3365071']
[b]The guy making the claim that Hogan...[/b]
[/quote]

its a youtube edited right,

orr audio discussing rft, ..[b]hogan footage stitched in[/b]. ..who knows whet orr thinks of hogans takeaway ?
[/quote]

You're right, I mistakenly thought Orr was describing this piece of Hogan video. However, Orr, like many TGM apologists, believe that the shoulder turn takeaway is "disruptive", and the RFT is superior, but even the TGM poster-boy, Brian Gay, uses the shoulder turn takeaway, as well as the original TGM prototype, Bobby Clampett.
[/quote]


Apologists? I don't see any TGM guys arguing, being defensive, or trying to talk anybody into anything. Just a discussion.

Kevin

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1309884038' post='3366001']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1309881872' post='3365895']

Looks obvious to me from the miles of Hogan video,[size="4"][b] that he throws his arms /club to the top with shoulder and hip rotation[/b][/size], but aside from that, he says so in writings and in teaching, such as in the Ed Sullivan mini-lesson in which the arms are swung with body motion and not independent arm motion.
[/quote]

...so the core muscles just throw the arms around in the golf swing?

[b]Theres plenty of conscious rolling, pronating movements away from the ball[/b] IMO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gCZCNGs3Gk
[/quote]

I didn't say or imply otherwise! What I am saying is that Hogan didn't lift the arm/club assembly - he swung them up with his shoulder motion, which is to say he didn't use the TGM RFT.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1309881872' post='3365895']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1309843486' post='3365097']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1309841956' post='3365071']
The guy making the claim that Hogan is using the TGM concept of RFT or Right Arm Takeaway is non authorized TGM instructor David Orr. RFT is a backswing technique in which the shoulders are not turned, but rather are moved by fanning the right forearm into a boy scout oath position. Clearly, Hogan didn't do that.
[/quote]

Why clearly? Hogan can either do it either with left forearm or right forearm in takeaway and we will have no idea how he did it. What's the sign or visible clues that he didn't do the RFT? Maybe Hogan is saying "let" or "allow" the right forearm to do this while left arm is doing the pronation in bs?
[/quote]

Looks obvious to me from the miles of Hogan video, that he throws his arms /club to the top with shoulder and hip rotation, but aside from that, he says so in writings and in teaching, such as in the Ed Sullivan mini-lesson in which the arms are swung with body motion and not independent arm motion.
[/quote]

But mizjoe, Hogan said the sequence in bs is hands, arms, shoulders, hips...

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='kevcarter ' timestamp='1309887314' post='3366075']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1309882207' post='3365909']
[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1309868654' post='3365359']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1309841956' post='3365071']
[b]The guy making the claim that Hogan...[/b]
[/quote]

its a youtube edited right,

orr audio discussing rft, ..[b]hogan footage stitched in[/b]. ..who knows whet orr thinks of hogans takeaway ?
[/quote]

You're right, I mistakenly thought Orr was describing this piece of Hogan video. However, Orr, like many TGM apologists, believe that the shoulder turn takeaway is "disruptive", and the RFT is superior, but even the TGM poster-boy, Brian Gay, uses the shoulder turn takeaway, as well as the original TGM prototype, Bobby Clampett.
[/quote]


Apologists? [b]I don't see any TGM guys[/b] arguing, [b]being defensive[/b], or trying to talk anybody into anything. Just a discussion.

Kevin
[/quote]

Neither do I, except maybe for you as evidenced by your sensitivity to the term. An apologist is someone who argues for a controversial position - in the case of the TGMers, the superiority of the RFT over the shoulder turn takeaway.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1309889271' post='3366186']
[quote name='kevcarter ' timestamp='1309887314' post='3366075']
Apologists? [b]I don't see any TGM guys[/b] arguing, [b]being defensive[/b], or trying to talk anybody into anything. Just a discussion.

Kevin
[/quote]

Neither do I, except maybe for you as [b]evidenced by your sensitivity [/b]to the term. An apologist is someone who [b]argues for a controversial position [/b]- in the case of the TGMers, the superiority of the RFT over the shoulder turn takeaway.
[/quote]

My apologies for getting carried away...

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1309888578' post='3366143']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1309881872' post='3365895']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1309843486' post='3365097']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1309841956' post='3365071']
The guy making the claim that Hogan is using the TGM concept of RFT or Right Arm Takeaway is non authorized TGM instructor David Orr. RFT is a backswing technique in which the shoulders are not turned, but rather are moved by fanning the right forearm into a boy scout oath position. Clearly, Hogan didn't do that.
[/quote]

Why clearly? Hogan can either do it either with left forearm or right forearm in takeaway and we will have no idea how he did it. What's the sign or visible clues that he didn't do the RFT? Maybe Hogan is saying "let" or "allow" the right forearm to do this while left arm is doing the pronation in bs?
[/quote]

Looks obvious to me from the miles of Hogan video, that he throws his arms /club to the top with shoulder and hip rotation, but aside from that, he says so in writings and in teaching, such as in the Ed Sullivan mini-lesson in which the arms are swung with body motion and not independent arm motion.
[/quote]

But mizjoe, Hogan said the sequence in bs is hands, arms, shoulders, hips...
[/quote]

He certainly did write that and the question is, is he describing incidental movement or action(effort) or both? In all video I've seen of Hogan, it appears that the hands, arms, and shoulders start simultaneously. But even assuming that the hands/arms move, however minutely, before the shoulders, he actively rotates the shoulders, which isn't permitted in the RFT. Were he accurately describing the action of RFT, he would have said, "right forearm, hips..." where any shoulder movement would result from the right forearm action as described by TGM. And that movement would not be as far ranging and torque building as that done with a core rotation.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='kevcarter ' timestamp='1309892374' post='3366365']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1309889271' post='3366186']
[quote name='kevcarter ' timestamp='1309887314' post='3366075']
Apologists? [b]I don't see any TGM guys[/b] arguing, [b]being defensive[/b], or trying to talk anybody into anything. Just a discussion.

Kevin
[/quote]

Neither do I, except maybe for you as [b]evidenced by your sensitivity [/b]to the term. An apologist is someone who [b]argues for a controversial position [/b]- in the case of the TGMers, the superiority of the RFT over the shoulder turn takeaway.
[/quote]

My [b]apologies[/b] for getting carried away...
[/quote]

Nice pun! Seriously though, I have the greatest respect for TGM, and didn't intend to offend any followers.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1309900073' post='3366736']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1309888578' post='3366143']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1309881872' post='3365895']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1309843486' post='3365097']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1309841956' post='3365071']
The guy making the claim that Hogan is using the TGM concept of RFT or Right Arm Takeaway is non authorized TGM instructor David Orr. RFT is a backswing technique in which the shoulders are not turned, but rather are moved by fanning the right forearm into a boy scout oath position. Clearly, Hogan didn't do that.
[/quote]

Why clearly? Hogan can either do it either with left forearm or right forearm in takeaway and we will have no idea how he did it. What's the sign or visible clues that he didn't do the RFT? Maybe Hogan is saying "let" or "allow" the right forearm to do this while left arm is doing the pronation in bs?
[/quote]

Looks obvious to me from the miles of Hogan video, that he throws his arms /club to the top with shoulder and hip rotation, but aside from that, he says so in writings and in teaching, such as in the Ed Sullivan mini-lesson in which the arms are swung with body motion and not independent arm motion.
[/quote]

But mizjoe, Hogan said the sequence in bs is hands, arms, shoulders, hips...
[/quote]

He certainly did write that and the question is, is he describing incidental movement or action(effort) or both? In all video I've seen of Hogan, it appears that the hands, arms, and shoulders start simultaneously. But even assuming that the hands/arms move, however minutely, before the shoulders, he actively rotates the shoulders, which isn't permitted in the RFT. Were he accurately describing the action of RFT, he would have said, "right forearm, hips..." where any shoulder movement would result from the right forearm action as described by TGM. And that movement would not be as far ranging and torque building as that done with a core rotation.
[/quote]

Any evidence on what Hogan is really saying in that video where he does the RFT without the left arm totally?

Hogan also said he swung his left arm across his chest.. And he said you gotta do it with the left arm... Seems to me his shoulders are of secondary importance..only mention Hogan said of the shoulders is that it should turn as much as possible, with left shoulder hitting the chin on top..and moving the arms will surely move the shoulders as the arms are attached to them...not saying RFT is Hogan, but I disagree it's CLEAR that it's not Hogan...

But what I really want to know is what Hogan actually is saying in that video...so the transcript/dubbing is inaccurate?

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1309887651' post='3366093']
[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1309884038' post='3366001']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1309881872' post='3365895']
Looks obvious to me from the miles of Hogan video,[size="4"][b] that he throws his arms /club to the top with shoulder and hip rotation[/b][/size], but aside from that, he says so in writings and in teaching, such as in the Ed Sullivan mini-lesson in which the arms are swung with body motion and not independent arm motion.
[/quote]

...so the core muscles just throw the arms around in the golf swing?

[b]Theres plenty of conscious rolling, pronating movements away from the ball[/b] IMO.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gCZCNGs3Gk"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=9gCZCNGs3Gk[/url]
[/quote]

I didn't say or imply otherwise! What I am saying is that Hogan didn't lift the arm/club assembly - he swung them up with his shoulder motion, which is to say he didn't use the TGM RFT.
[/quote]

I respect that.

So if you were Hogan how would you describe the movements of the shoulders at takeaway specifically? I dont see a lot of "up" in his arm club assembly

[JOEGOLFWRX]

[quote name='kevcarter ' timestamp='1309870787' post='3365433']
Another excellent video by KOC
[/quote]

yeah, it is a great channel.
[url="http://www.youtube.com/user/KOC#g/u"]http://www.youtube.com/user/KOC#g/u[/url]
well worth a gander

[hoganfan924]

Remember that "video" was someone's 8mm home movie, so there would have been no audio and the only people that know what Hogan said are Hogan and whoever he's speaking to. Just as good a case could be made that he's explaining "fanning the face open," or pronating the left forearm. But yes, KOC (a member here) has a good youtube channel, as does "1tontomato" who I believe is "Juansky" on this site. Always enjoy watching their videos.

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1309964429' post='3368738']
so there would have been no audio and the only people that know what Hogan said are Hogan and whoever he's speaking to.
[/quote]

The audio about the right forearm takeaway came from a youtube instruction video of a group lesson. Ive seen it before but I cant find it now. Hogans name wasnt mentioned anywhere in the video. Im just sayin

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1309964429' post='3368738']
Remember that "video" was someone's 8mm home movie, so there would have been no audio and the only people that know what Hogan said are Hogan and whoever he's speaking to. Just as good a case could be made that he's explaining "fanning the face open," or pronating the left forearm. But yes, KOC (a member here) has a good youtube channel, as does "1tontomato" who I believe is "Juansky" on this site. Always enjoy watching their videos.
[/quote]

Who are the 2 persons Hogan's talking to?

[KevCarter]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1309968412' post='3368927']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1309964429' post='3368738']
so there would have been no audio and the only people that know what Hogan said are Hogan and whoever he's speaking to.
[/quote]

The audio about the right forearm takeaway came from a youtube instruction video of a group lesson. Ive seen it before but I cant find it now. Hogans name wasnt mentioned anywhere in the video. Im just sayin
[/quote]

It was David Orr giving a class to aspiring professionals. KOC saw some similarities in the motion Hogan was making and edited it in. No big deal, and not trying to convince anyone. Just an effective way of learning for KOC and has been helpful to me as well...

Kevin

[Lefthook]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1309913969' post='3367276']
Hogan also said he swung his left arm across his chest.. And he said you gotta do it[b][color="#ff0000"] with the left arm[/color][/b]... Seems to me his shoulders are of secondary importance..only mention Hogan said of the shoulders is that it should turn as much as possible, with left shoulder hitting the chin on top..and moving the arms will surely move the shoulders as the arms are attached to them...not saying RFT is Hogan, but I disagree it's CLEAR that it's not Hogan...

[/quote]


I recently listened to an interview with Hogan where he emphasized the left hand / arm in the takeaway - as you said above. A Right Forearm Pickup per TGM will emphasize the right hand and arm. So IMO Hogan didn't do a RFP. Hogan has also been quoted on saying - in response to a H2 to a back swing question: You don't hit the ball with the back swing. So this was perhaps not on the top of his priority list.

I have spent quite a few hours over the stretch of quite a few years trying to figuring out The Golfing Machine. When you read about the RFP in TGM - and about the strictly related concept of "educated hands" it is not clear whether these are procedures defined by some physical attributes or merely different mental ways of producing the same motion. If they are mental it simply means that you put your mind in your hands, train your body to respond to whatever you want to do with your hands. That also means that you put your hands in charge of the whole body. So an RFP could start with hips and shoulders, everything together or be very handsy - depending on the shot - but you would be thinking of how you wanted to move the club with the Right Forearm. And not thinking about how you needed to move your right hip to get the job done - and so forth.

There is also another TGM concept family member that is worth mention here, and that is the TGM geometry of the right forearm and the wrist. The right wrist should be bent and level - and the right forearm should be on plane at address & impact. The Right forearm flying wedge (the plane defined by the clubshaft and the right forearm) should be at right angles to the Left Arm Flying Wedge (the wrist cocck plane). This 90* relationship puts some demands on the grip....

Most decent golfers have the forearm on plane at impact, but not at address. And the left wrist should be reasonably flat through impact and the right wrist should be bent. But TGM goes a lot farther: If you start your takeaway at impact fix, the right wrist could, or perhaps should, be[b][color="#ff0000"] frozen[/color][/b] from fix, through impact and to low point. You can start with the hands lower and the right forearm higher, but it has to be connected somewhere in the back swing and should be frozen from there on. These are some pretty heavy geometrical requirements, and I still don't understand how that can be combined with a snap release, but that's another topic. It can work with a sweep release and it can work exceptionally well on strokes where you apply minimum of wrist cocck / uncock - and it is so easy that even I can do it.

The typical grip for a perfect golf stroke per TGM is a "strong single action grip". That is what would normally be labelled a strong (but not exceptionally so) grip, with both V's pointing somewhere in the region of the right shoulder. Perhaps with the right hand grip more towards the palm of the hand than mainstream to get the right forearm on plane and enable the 90* angle between the two flying wedges.

Hogan had some of that grip strength in his left hand (it was stronger than the illustrations in 5 lessons) but his right hand was much more on top of the shaft than a TGM grip. Which also means that a Frozen, level & bent right wrist and 90* between the flying wedges wasn't in the cards for Hogan. And that would also make the RFP less relevant.

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='Lefthook' timestamp='1310010812' post='3370846']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1309913969' post='3367276']
Hogan also said he swung his left arm across his chest.. And he said you gotta do it[b][color="#ff0000"] with the left arm[/color][/b]... Seems to me his shoulders are of secondary importance..only mention Hogan said of the shoulders is that it should turn as much as possible, with left shoulder hitting the chin on top..and moving the arms will surely move the shoulders as the arms are attached to them...not saying RFT is Hogan, but I disagree it's CLEAR that it's not Hogan...

[/quote]


I recently listened to an interview with Hogan where he emphasized the left hand / arm in the takeaway - as you said above. A Right Forearm Pickup per TGM will emphasize the right hand and arm. So IMO Hogan didn't do a RFP. Hogan has also been quoted on saying - in response to a H2 to a back swing question: You don't hit the ball with the back swing. So this was perhaps not on the top of his priority list.

I have spent quite a few hours over the stretch of quite a few years trying to figuring out The Golfing Machine. When you read about the RFP in TGM - and about the strictly related concept of "educated hands" it is not clear whether these are procedures defined by some physical attributes or merely different mental ways of producing the same motion. If they are mental it simply means that you put your mind in your hands, train your body to respond to whatever you want to do with your hands. That also means that you put your hands in charge of the whole body. So an RFP could start with hips and shoulders, everything together or be very handsy - depending on the shot - but you would be thinking of how you wanted to move the club with the Right Forearm. And not thinking about how you needed to move your right hip to get the job done - and so forth.

There is also another TGM concept family member that is worth mention here, and that is the TGM geometry of the right forearm and the wrist. The right wrist should be bent and level - and the right forearm should be on plane at address & impact. The Right forearm flying wedge (the plane defined by the clubshaft and the right forearm) should be at right angles to the Left Arm Flying Wedge (the wrist cocck plane). This 90* relationship puts some demands on the grip....

Most decent golfers have the forearm on plane at impact, [size="5"][b]but not at address[/b][/size]. And the left wrist should be reasonably flat through impact and the right wrist should be bent. But TGM goes a lot farther: If you start your takeaway at impact fix, the right wrist could, or perhaps should, be[b][color="#ff0000"] frozen[/color][/b] from fix, through impact and to low point. You can start with the hands lower and the right forearm higher, but it has to be connected somewhere in the back swing and should be frozen from there on. These are some pretty heavy geometrical requirements, and I still don't understand how that can be combined with a snap release, but that's another topic. It can work with a sweep release and it can work exceptionally well on strokes where you apply minimum of wrist cocck / uncock - and it is so easy that even I can do it.

The typical grip for a perfect golf stroke per TGM is a "strong single action grip". That is what would normally be labelled a strong (but not exceptionally so) grip, with both V's pointing somewhere in the region of the right shoulder. Perhaps with the right hand grip more towards the palm of the hand than mainstream to get the right forearm on plane and enable the 90* angle between the two flying wedges.

Hogan had some of that grip strength in his left hand (it was stronger than the illustrations in 5 lessons) but his right hand was much more on top of the shaft than a TGM grip. Which also means that a Frozen, level & bent right wrist and 90* between the flying wedges wasn't in the cards for Hogan. And that would also make the RFP less relevant.
[/quote]

The right arm shouldnt be bent if your aim is to work on a flat plane. Watch Hogans trigger compression before his swing; not just the rebound from left side, but extension of the arms before the CH moves(pushing down on the handle)

What are your literal references for the RH grip position per TGM? Sounds to me like you're quoting youtube vids of various uncertified instructor's interpretations as opposed to actually reading the book....keyword "perhaps" "frozen" and "level" in regards to the RH wrist. So you throw out abunch of demands that are possible for the RH wrist movements in BS/DS? Weaker grip=less need for forward shaft lean at address/impact. Also means that since shaft lean at address(SSAG) presets baseline to the right that Hogans intended shot shape was not the push draw that some patterns prescribe.

[Lefthook]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1310015655' post='3370987']
The right arm shouldnt be bent if your aim is to work on a flat plane. Watch Hogans trigger compression before his swing; not just the rebound from left side, but extension of the arms before the CH moves(pushing down on the handle)

What are your literal references for the RH grip position per TGM? Sounds to me like you're quoting youtube vids of various uncertified instructor's interpretations as opposed to actually reading the book....keyword "perhaps" "frozen" and "level" in regards to the RH wrist. So you throw out abunch of demands that are possible for the RH wrist movements in BS/DS? Weaker grip=less need for forward shaft lean at address/impact. Also means that since shaft lean at address(SSAG) presets baseline to the right that Hogans intended shot shape was not the push draw that some patterns prescribe.
[/quote]


Personally I like a rather straight right arm at address. I was just arguing that Hogan did something very different from TGM RFP.


If you really want to have the right forearm on plane it has consequences for the grip. My references for the TGM left hand grip comes from Lynn Blake. I believe he is as true to the book and the other things handed over from HK as anyone out there. He has explained it and demoed it on numerous occasions, often in relationship with " the flying wedges". If you go to LBG and do your homework you should find some of it. The frozen bent level right wrist is in TGM, chapter 7-3, amongst other places. Some of the other relationships between the RFP, educated hands, flying wedges, grip etc aren't spelled out in the book in one place. You have to do quite some studying to see that it's there. TGM is a hard read...

You can't put your right hand on top of the grip like Hogan does if you want to have the right forearm on plane as described in TGM. Therefore Hogan's grip is in conflict with an RFP backstroke.

You were questioning my knowledge of TGM. I have studied the yellow book the extent that it has started to fall apart. I have been a member of LBG since it was launched. I didn't start writing posts there until I figured I was beginning to understand a little about TGM. That took about 3-4 years. I am a fairly well regarded contributor at LBG by now and I have tested my own understanding of some of the core concepts in TGM against some of the greatest TGM experts. I am not married to TGM. And I don't regard myself as a TGM expert. But I know it better than most who speak about it. If you haven't understood the point with the frozen, bent, level right wrist you haven't even gotten started.



Hogan's ball flight was btw on the low side. So he had more forward shaft lean at impact than most. Quite the opposite of what you implied with your "weak grip enables less shaft lean" observation. That observation would perhaps be valid for a flipper but not for a ball striker of Hogan's caliber.

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='Lefthook' timestamp='1310056777' post='3372019']
[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1310015655' post='3370987']
The right arm shouldnt be bent if your aim is to work on a flat plane. Watch Hogans trigger compression before his swing; not just the rebound from left side, but extension of the arms before the CH moves(pushing down on the handle)

What are your literal references for the RH grip position per TGM? Sounds to me like you're quoting youtube vids of various uncertified instructor's interpretations as opposed to actually reading the book....keyword "perhaps" "frozen" and "level" in regards to the RH wrist. So you throw out abunch of demands that are possible for the RH wrist movements in BS/DS? Weaker grip=less need for forward shaft lean at address/impact. Also means that since shaft lean at address(SSAG) presets baseline to the right that Hogans intended shot shape was not the push draw that some patterns prescribe.
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Personally I like a rather straight right arm at address. I was just arguing that Hogan did something very different from TGM RFP.


If you really want to have the right forearm on plane it has consequences for the grip. My references for the TGM left hand grip comes from Lynn Blake. I believe he is as true to the book and the other things handed over from HK as anyone out there. He has explained it and demoed it on numerous occasions, often in relationship with " the flying wedges". If you go to LBG and do your homework you should find some of it. The frozen bent level right wrist is in TGM, chapter 7-3, amongst other places. Some of the other relationships between the RFP, educated hands, flying wedges, grip etc aren't spelled out in the book in one place. You have to do quite some studying to see that it's there. TGM is a hard read...

You can't put your right hand on top of the grip like Hogan does if you want to have the right forearm on plane as described in TGM. Therefore Hogan's grip is in conflict with an RFP backstroke.

You were questioning my knowledge of TGM. I have studied the yellow book the extent that it has started to fall apart. I have been a member of LBG since it was launched. I didn't start writing posts there until I figured I was beginning to understand a little about TGM. That took about 3-4 years. I am a fairly well regarded contributor at LBG by now and I have tested my own understanding of some of the core concepts in TGM against some of the greatest TGM experts. I am not married to TGM. And I don't regard myself as a TGM expert. But I know it better than most who speak about it. If you haven't understood the point with the frozen, bent, level right wrist you haven't even gotten started.



Hogan's ball flight was btw on the low side. So he had more forward shaft lean at impact than most. Quite the opposite of what you implied with your "weak grip enables less shaft lean" observation. That observation would perhaps be valid for a flipper but not for a ball striker of Hogan's caliber.














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+1 great post thanks!

[Lefthook]

I'm glad to hear that you like it.

[ej002]

[quote name='Lefthook' timestamp='1310056777' post='3372019']Hogan's ball flight was btw on the low side. So he had more forward shaft lean at impact than most. Quite the opposite of what you implied with your "weak grip enables less shaft lean" observation. That observation would perhaps be valid for a flipper but not for a ball striker of Hogan's caliber.
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I can't play with weak right hand grip and have a low ball flight (with lots of shaft lien). I am not disagreeing with you, I actually agree with you on this, but how did he do this without having a wide open face. His right wrist at impact does not look out of the oridinary either.