Right forearm takeaway per the transript

[Squish]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1310354890' post='3380885']
Is it possible Hogan do same results (same look from outside) but do it with a left forearm takeaway mentally/consciously (remember he said you must do it with the left arm)? I think the trick is how to do that with the left arm driving (mental/consciousness on left arm) but at same time LETTING the right forearm/elbow behave that way (like RFT), especially with the very very fast swing tempo of hogan even in bs...try doing the RFT with a very fast bs as fast as hogan and it's very difficult, especially with a heavy club like hogan...I feel there's definitely should be help/effort with the left arm (or part of it..) at least on the beginning or before mid-bs...in short, maybe it's BOTH LFT and RFT?..
[/quote]

Hogangolf101,

For me,
It IS done and controlled with the left arm going back, as I wrote;
"The inward medial rotation of the left humerus at the waggle, is left arm control going back".

The right arm resists, folds and pivots around the right elbow.
That left arm is a weapon when torqued properly.
Plus the elbow can still flex when the left arm is torqued. Hogan called it tension vs tensity.

It is the purpose of Hogan's belt drill to train this action.
At address the back of left hand is pointing parallel to the flight line. At the waggle simply point the left elbow in the same direction.
That tension or torque makes the left arm a single lever that swings with the spine.
I pulse that inward medial contraction with a dorsal flexing of the right hand.
That combined motion when pulsed, brings the right elbow to the right side.
That is a rehearsal for impact.
At impact that torque of the left arm is released.

For me it's the same releasing unwinding arm action as throwing a Frisbee left handed.
The left arm is wound in opposite directions then released.
The back of the left hand and elbow is wound and pointing in the same direction.
When released they point opposite. It's supination at impact to pronation at release.

[nitefisher111]

.

[nitefisher111]

[quote name='Lefthook' timestamp='1310097263' post='3373820']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1310082301' post='3373152']
What do you or LB think on how Hogan "mentally" do the takeaway, which I think will also "result" to the RFT "movement"? I believe the movement is right on. It perfectly fits in with what BH said/wrote, especially the "keeping the right elbow hardly moving on 1st half of backswing" and "keeping it pointed down all the way to top" and "keeping the elbows/arms close together as possible during the swing"?

You said TGM says something about educated hands?
[/quote]

I wouldn't know what LB thinks about this. I believe Yoda shared more of his deep thoughts between 2004-2007 than he does now. Now I think he has simplified the message and is more conserned with helping people play better than to really understand TGM. So if you want to know more about LB's thoughts about the golf stroke you should search the archives in LBG. It's a gold mine!

I know that Hogan was a bit disappointed when TGM came out. HK and Hogan had a few conversations and TGM didn't quite present thing according to Hogan's view of things I remember correct. But HK was on a mission where he tried to integrate all kinds of strokes and ad hoc theories into one framework so it is understandable that he pissed off a few "my way" guys in the process.

LB looks very Hogan like face on late in the down stroke. Almost better than Hogan. It is very impressive. I haven't seen them side by side down the line, but my guess would be that both have good lag pressure through impact but that Hogan swings flatter and holds the pressure for a tad longer. You should be able to find some side by side photos over at LBG.

I believe that Hogan emphasized the movement of his left hand in the back stroke as said earlier in this thread. I heard or read that in an interview. And there are swingers who do something similar - even among the TGM followers. I also know - from watching a lot of slomo video of Hogan's back swing in Slicefixer's studio, that Hogan started to move his grip before the club head moved. Or at least that he was leading with the handle and lagging with the club head in the start of the takeaway. Like a mini swing to get the club head going.

[b]HK had figured out that there really was no need to have any motion with the right wrist in the golf stroke. It could be frozen from address to low point. Instead you use the right elbow to match the movement of the left arm and the left wrist. If you build a stroke around that you take away quite a few degrees of freedom that tends to complicate things. LB says he keeps his right wrist frozen throughout the stroke but to me it feels like I can only do that in combination with a sweep release. That's a very gradual release that starts early. And based on video material I'd say it looks like even LB adds some right wrist bend and / or wrist **** to enable a snap release.

I like the concept of the TGM flying wedges but I am not convinced that it can be taken literally. So I tend to think of the frozen wrist as a quiet right wrist. There is btw a lot of quiet right wrist in Slicefixer's swing as well. His 9-3 drill is all about maintaining the right wrist bend all the way to the finish. And since his model is very much based on Hogan I'd say this is the case with Hogan's swing too. So a lot of things add up here as long as they are not taken too biblical.[/b]



[/quote]

Greg Norman's "secret"...I hadn't thought about this in years (from address to low point), it's been primarily an impact thought for me. I played around with this yesterday and I loved the way it worked....it made setting my right arm a lot easier. I'm not exactly sure what a sweep release is, but my release is what I would term a leveraged release....I don't stall my pivot, have some forward shaft lean and try to maintain right wrist bend until impact (distance is not an issues for me) so the "frozen" or "quiet" right wrist really didn't affect me at impact but really helped "tighten" my swing up. Thanks for posting this!!

[Lefthook]

You're welcome nitefisher111,
A full sweep release starts at the top and the accumulators (there are 4 of them) are gradually released all the way towards impact.

A random sweep release starts somewhere halfway down.

A snap release starts as late as possible - I think when your hands pass the line of sight to the ball.

Most top golfers either use a random sweep or a snap. For instance Rory is said to use a random sweep.

This is all TGM stuff and the 4 accumulators are:

1) The bent right arm - the elbow angle.
2) The angle between the left arm and the club - the wrist ****
3) Some of the angle in the left wrist isn't fully uncocked. This is the only angle that isn't released. It is instead utilized in a rotary motion where the club face goes from open to closed.
4) The angle between left arm and the left shoulder.

The release sequence is 4-1-2-3 but all accumulators are rarely used. #4 is a typical swingers accumulator while #1 is a typical hitters accumulator. For a swinger the release is sequenced, but for a hitter the release is more simultaneous.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='Squish' timestamp='1310380227' post='3381299']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1310354890' post='3380885']
Is it possible Hogan do same results (same look from outside) but do it with a left forearm takeaway mentally/consciously (remember he said you must do it with the left arm)? I think the trick is how to do that with the left arm driving (mental/consciousness on left arm) but at same time LETTING the right forearm/elbow behave that way (like RFT), especially with the very very fast swing tempo of hogan even in bs...try doing the RFT with a very fast bs as fast as hogan and it's very difficult, especially with a heavy club like hogan...I feel there's definitely should be help/effort with the left arm (or part of it..) at least on the beginning or before mid-bs...in short, maybe it's BOTH LFT and RFT?..
[/quote]

Hogangolf101,

For me,
It IS done and controlled with the left arm going back, as I wrote;
"The inward medial rotation of the left humerus at the waggle, is left arm control going back".

The right arm resists, folds and pivots around the right elbow.
That left arm is a weapon when torqued properly.
Plus the elbow can still flex when the left arm is torqued. Hogan called it tension vs tensity.

It is the purpose of Hogan's belt drill to train this action.
At address the back of left hand is pointing parallel to the flight line. At the waggle simply point the left elbow in the same direction.
That tension or torque makes the left arm a single lever that swings with the spine.
I pulse that inward medial contraction with a dorsal flexing of the right hand.
That combined motion when pulsed, brings the right elbow to the right side.
That is a rehearsal for impact.
At impact that torque of the left arm is released.

For me it's the same releasing unwinding arm action as throwing a Frisbee left handed.
The left arm is wound in opposite directions then released.
The back of the left hand and elbow is wound and pointing in the same direction.
When released they point opposite. It's supination at impact to pronation at release.
[/quote]

I understand what you're describing. That actually flatten the left wrist early, right? Early pitchy elbow, right? Early right wrist bend, right? Now, how do we tie that in with the cupped wrist on top? (which by the way is IMPOSSIBLE with a RFT...koc,kevcarter, other RFT advocates, comments please?)

[grahler]

Many differing intents can achieve the same mechanics...

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1310440043' post='3383584']
Many differing intents can achieve the same mechanics...
[/quote]



Thats what Im getting...Some TGM guys have said it has to be on plane at setup/some say it doesnt matter and mid body hands on hands only plane is the common link in great ballstrikers

Hogan sometimes looks like he has a bent right arm but starts the swing by extending both arms/tilting his head. The fanning [i]move[/i] is evident on most of his film, but look at where his hands are in relation to his chin. Right forearm isnt ramrod straight but its definitely pointing inside the baseline.

In my opinion, as far as TGM and loading accumulators, if you use the method of fanning the RF dominantly then the right side has most of the weight...if you use the left arm torque with right arm fanning motion to passively resist early loading of accumulators then your pulling the handle and hands back with left arm/pec muscles. Flexing these muscles limits the amount of loading PA4 since it is dominant and has most of the weight. As John Daly said in his book (yeah watch this) "getting a peck full of bicept". Hogan was pigeon chested so its hard to tell, but I see a lot of loading at PA4...hes got to be right hand/arm dominant at takeaway and the right elbow breaks pretty early(combined with the cupping of the left wrist ala Time mag article off the ball; but right arm still responsible for most of the clubs weight). Pretty much pronating left and right forearms going back like squish said. Seems theres a few ways to get it done but I still havent found what fits me the best.

[quote][b]5-0 GENERAL[/b] Because the Right Forearm and the Clubshaft are on the same Plane during Release and Impact (7-3), players actually Monitor the Clubhead Delivery Line by "Tracing" along it with the Right Forearm. This as done as though a flashlight were lashed to the Right Forearm, with the #3 Pressure Point as the lens, causing its beam to move along the Reference Line (Study 4-D and 6-J-0). But this does not mean that, because the Clubshaft is On Plane, the Right Forearm is automatically On Plane also. [u]BOTH MUST BE MONITORED AS BEING ON PLANE AT THE START DOWN[/u].[/quote]

[Squish]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1310430687' post='3383291']
I understand what you're describing. That actually flatten the left wrist early, right? Early pitchy elbow, right? Early right wrist bend, right? Now, how do we tie that in with the cupped wrist on top? (which by the way is IMPOSSIBLE with a RFT...koc,kevcarter, other RFT advocates, comments please?)
[/quote]

There is a hell of a lot going on with the arms, but if the grip is right it happens correctly.
Flatten to bow the left wrist with the waggle, that emulates impact. At take away the wrists radial flex or wristcock.
A thumbs up position. Ulna deviation is the opposite, like when you hammer or cast a fishing rod.
If the left hand is neutral to weak, there is a slight cup at the top, but if the left grip is strong the left goes into dorsal flex-ion.
Hogan used a weak right grip, and the right goes into dorsal as the weak left only slightly cups with the pronation of both to the top.
When wristcocked, the right wrist is cupped at the top, the left is only slightly cupped. This goes back to the grip.
I read some where when asked about pronation, hogan said, it won't happen if the grip is wrong.

[PingG10guy]

http://www.golfingmachinist.com.au/article.php?id=20

best article i ever read on RFT...and since I dont own a copy of TGM its the first place Ive ever read that the right wrist is flat at address. Extensor pressure never consistently did me any favors until you add this. Everything is dynamic and aligned automatically IMO

"1. [size="3"][b]Extensor Action [/b][/size] A steady effort to straighten the Bent Right Arm. This stretches the Left Arm but does not move it. This produces a structural rigidity that is a strong deterrent to collapse under the stresses of Acceleration and Impact. It is in operation from Impact Fix (8-2) to the end of the Follow-Through (8-11). This "Stretches the Left Arm but does not move it.

Extensor Action promotes;

(A) Good extension of the Left Arm at all times

(B) Good extension of the Right Arm for the Follow-Through (8-11)

(C) The correct rate of Clubhead Closing

(D) The proper type of support for "passive" non-accelerating Clubhead Lag Pressure involving Wristcock

Refer to Extensor Action in Section 6-B-1-D Page 71 in The Golfing Machine Book 7th Edition


[b]2. Start-Up Line[/b]
The Clubshaft and Right Forearm pointing to the plane line. The Right Forearm (via Pressure Point #3) traces (Traces means to point to) the Plane Line as the club starts up. The Right Forearm is like a torch loaded with batteries and the light is going to shine out through the right index finger (Pressure Point #3) and is going to trace (shine on) the plane Line as the club Starts-Up


[b]3. Start-Up Left and Right Wrist Condition[/b]
At address the Left Wrist is Bent and the Right Wrist is Flat and as the Right Forearm starts the club back the Left Wrist will become Flat and the Right Wrist becomes Bent because of the Extensor Action of Pressure Point #3 (Right Thumb and Right Forefinger "Stretching the Left Arm and Club into a straight line."

[Lefthook]

I like the "hands controlled pivot" concept. It is a more goal and target oriented approach than the alternative. It's the mental approach that can produce decent results with ugly swings, while "pivot controlled hands" can produce swings where balance is fine, impact is dead solid but the ball goes out of bounds due to minor errors at address.

But I don't think the Right Forearm Takeaway is the best way to do it for all strokes and certainly not for a Hogan type of stroke where there is a very rigid synchronization between the core and the hands. Hogan himself emphasized the use of the left hand & arm in the takeaway and said that only poor golfers took the club back with the right hand. Therefore I don't think he would have appreciated being a poster child for the right forearm takeaway. Yet he is used as an example time and again. I've seen close up slow motion of Hogan's takeaway and for the first few inches his hands moves faster than the club head. There's a bit of float loading in the takeaway to get the club head going. That would never happen with a right forarm takeaway.

I find it very difficult to maintain good pivot / hands synchronisation when I take the club back with the right hand only. I prefer a stroke where there is a very strong connection between pivot and hands at impact - and more focus on the left hand in the takeaway works better for keeping everything together and in sync.

The right forearm takeaway seems to work a lot better with strokes where the hands and arms work movemore independent towards impact - as opposed to being carried by the pivot.

Homer Kelley's use of accumulator #4 involves a deliberate release of the angle between the left shoulder and the left arm - the arm is launched from the pivot with properly timed pp#4 pressure (armpit / chest). In other words there's an element of independent arm motion in a typical TGM stroke. Back and down again.The right forearm takeaway fits nicely with that kind of motion.

There's an alternative way of utilizing accumulator #4. By keeping the hand (and the accumulator #4 angle) in a dynamic position that maximizes the leverage from the pulling from the left shoulder all the way through impact. Less of a launch and more of a continuous thrust. This force can be very substantial, but it will be weakened if accumulator #4 is used the TGM way because the arms will get somewhat out of sync with the shoulders. I'm not saying that one is more powerful than the other. It's basically a matter of timing and preferences.

In his short but very effective instruction video, Hogan explains and shows how he uses his lower body to generate power. This is a far cry from how Homer Kelley saw it. In TGM, zone #1 - the body lane is about geometry and balance, while everything related to power is associated with the arms in zone #2 - the arms lane. So needless to say, Hogan's idea of a golf stroke was very different from Homer Kelley's. And that is reflected in the various stroke patterns.

Hogan used a very flat plane, his arms went left before impact and he had the most aggressive hip action I've ever seen on tape and there is also a lot of shoulder turn through impact. There aren't many TGM champions that play on the highest level, but you don't need that kind of hip action and shoulder turn to play a perfect TGM stroke because power is generated in the arms lane and the hands and arms are more freewheeling through impact. Or at least there is more independant arms motion towards impact due to the release of accumulator #4.

Everything is relative of course, but the TGM stroke is a lot more sequential as far as the relationship between pivot and arms is concerned than Hogan's stroke.

I believe the right forearm takeaway is more inline with the TGM use of accumulator #4 and the role Homer Kelley ascribed to the arms for power generation, than with a Ben Hogan type of stroke where everything should turn in sync through impact with as much pivot thrust as possible.

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='Lefthook' timestamp='1311317079' post='3413480']


Everything is relative of course, but the TGM stroke is a lot more sequential as far as the relationship between pivot and arms is concerned than Hogan's stroke.

I believe the right forearm takeaway is more inline with the TGM use of accumulator #4 and the role Homer Kelley ascribed to the arms for power generation, than with a Ben Hogan type of stroke where everything should turn in sync through impact with as much pivot thrust as possible.
[/quote]

I agree. I wish I had the lower back for a Hogan type move. Amazing post.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='Lefthook' timestamp='1311317079' post='3413480']
I like the "hands controlled pivot" concept. It is a more goal and target oriented approach than the alternative. It's the mental approach that can produce decent results with ugly swings, while "pivot controlled hands" can produce swings where balance is fine, impact is dead solid but the ball goes out of bounds due to minor errors at address.

But I don't think the Right Forearm Takeaway is the best way to do it for all strokes and certainly not for a Hogan type of stroke where there is a very rigid synchronization between the core and the hands. Hogan himself emphasized the use of the left hand & arm in the takeaway and said that only poor golfers took the club back with the right hand. Therefore I don't think he would have appreciated being a poster child for the right forearm takeaway. Yet he is used as an example time and again. I've seen close up slow motion of Hogan's takeaway and for the first few inches his hands moves faster than the club head. There's a bit of float loading in the takeaway to get the club head going. That would never happen with a right forarm takeaway.

I find it very difficult to maintain good pivot / hands synchronisation when I take the club back with the right hand only. I prefer a stroke where there is a very strong connection between pivot and hands at impact - and more focus on the left hand in the takeaway works better for keeping everything together and in sync.

The right forearm takeaway seems to work a lot better with strokes where the hands and arms work movemore independent towards impact - as opposed to being carried by the pivot.

Homer Kelley's use of accumulator #4 involves a deliberate release of the angle between the left shoulder and the left arm - the arm is launched from the pivot with properly timed pp#4 pressure (armpit / chest). In other words there's an element of independent arm motion in a typical TGM stroke. Back and down again.The right forearm takeaway fits nicely with that kind of motion.

There's an alternative way of utilizing accumulator #4. By keeping the hand (and the accumulator #4 angle) in a dynamic position that maximizes the leverage from the pulling from the left shoulder all the way through impact. Less of a launch and more of a continuous thrust. This force can be very substantial, but it will be weakened if accumulator #4 is used the TGM way because the arms will get somewhat out of sync with the shoulders. I'm not saying that one is more powerful than the other. It's basically a matter of timing and preferences.

In his short but very effective instruction video, Hogan explains and shows how he uses his lower body to generate power. This is a far cry from how Homer Kelley saw it. In TGM, zone #1 - the body lane is about geometry and balance, while everything related to power is associated with the arms in zone #2 - the arms lane. So needless to say, Hogan's idea of a golf stroke was very different from Homer Kelley's. And that is reflected in the various stroke patterns.

Hogan used a very flat plane, his arms went left before impact and he had the most aggressive hip action I've ever seen on tape and there is also a lot of shoulder turn through impact. There aren't many TGM champions that play on the highest level, but you don't need that kind of hip action and shoulder turn to play a perfect TGM stroke because power is generated in the arms lane and the hands and arms are more freewheeling through impact. Or at least there is more independant arms motion towards impact due to the release of accumulator #4.

Everything is relative of course, but the TGM stroke is a lot more sequential as far as the relationship between pivot and arms is concerned than Hogan's stroke.

I believe the right forearm takeaway is more inline with the TGM use of accumulator #4 and the role Homer Kelley ascribed to the arms for power generation, than with a Ben Hogan type of stroke where everything should turn in sync through impact with as much pivot thrust as possible.
[/quote]

Wonderful post IMHO. While I am a fan of RFT, there are many ways to get it done. I think Homer Kelley would say you get it...

Kevin

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1311302897' post='3413074']
http://www.golfingmachinist.com.au/article.php?id=20

best article i ever read on RFT...and since I dont own a copy of TGM its the first place Ive ever read that the right wrist is flat at address. Extensor pressure never consistently did me any favors until you add this. Everything is dynamic and aligned automatically IMO

"1. [size="3"][b]Extensor Action [/b][/size] A steady effort to straighten the Bent Right Arm. This stretches the Left Arm but does not move it. This produces a structural rigidity that is a strong deterrent to collapse under the stresses of Acceleration and Impact. It is in operation from Impact Fix (8-2) to the end of the Follow-Through (8-11). This "Stretches the Left Arm but does not move it.

Extensor Action promotes;

(A) Good extension of the Left Arm at all times

(B) Good extension of the Right Arm for the Follow-Through (8-11)

(C) The correct rate of Clubhead Closing

(D) The proper type of support for "passive" non-accelerating Clubhead Lag Pressure involving Wristcock

Refer to Extensor Action in Section 6-B-1-D Page 71 in The Golfing Machine Book 7th Edition


[b]2. Start-Up Line[/b]
The Clubshaft and Right Forearm pointing to the plane line. The Right Forearm (via Pressure Point #3) traces (Traces means to point to) the Plane Line as the club starts up. The Right Forearm is like a torch loaded with batteries and the light is going to shine out through the right index finger (Pressure Point #3) and is going to trace (shine on) the plane Line as the club Starts-Up


[b]3. Start-Up Left and Right Wrist Condition[/b]
At address the Left Wrist is Bent and the Right Wrist is Flat and as the Right Forearm starts the club back the Left Wrist will become Flat and the Right Wrist becomes Bent because of the Extensor Action of Pressure Point #3 (Right Thumb and Right Forefinger "Stretching the Left Arm and Club into a straight line."
[/quote]

But didn't Hogan said you must do it with your left arm... Didn't Hogan said you do it with your left hand, the right hand works "along" with the left hand... Didn't Hogan said the left arm from the elbow down rotates... If you do extensor action and/or RFT, your mind is on the right arm, the left is just going along with the right... Isn't that the other way around of what Hogan said?

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='Lefthook' timestamp='1311317079' post='3413480']
I like the "hands controlled pivot" concept. It is a more goal and target oriented approach than the alternative. It's the mental approach that can produce decent results with ugly swings, while "pivot controlled hands" can produce swings where balance is fine, impact is dead solid but the ball goes out of bounds due to minor errors at address.

But I don't think the Right Forearm Takeaway is the best way to do it for all strokes and certainly not for a Hogan type of stroke where there is a very rigid synchronization between the core and the hands. Hogan himself emphasized the use of the left hand & arm in the takeaway and said that only poor golfers took the club back with the right hand. Therefore I don't think he would have appreciated being a poster child for the right forearm takeaway. Yet he is used as an example time and again. I've seen close up slow motion of Hogan's takeaway and for the first few inches his hands moves faster than the club head. There's a bit of float loading in the takeaway to get the club head going. That would never happen with a right forarm takeaway.

I find it very difficult to maintain good pivot / hands synchronisation when I take the club back with the right hand only. I prefer a stroke where there is a very strong connection between pivot and hands at impact - and more focus on the left hand in the takeaway works better for keeping everything together and in sync.

The right forearm takeaway seems to work a lot better with strokes where the hands and arms work movemore independent towards impact - as opposed to being carried by the pivot.

Homer Kelley's use of accumulator #4 involves a deliberate release of the angle between the left shoulder and the left arm - the arm is launched from the pivot with properly timed pp#4 pressure (armpit / chest). In other words there's an element of independent arm motion in a typical TGM stroke. Back and down again.The right forearm takeaway fits nicely with that kind of motion.

There's an alternative way of utilizing accumulator #4. By keeping the hand (and the accumulator #4 angle) in a dynamic position that maximizes the leverage from the pulling from the left shoulder all the way through impact. Less of a launch and more of a continuous thrust. This force can be very substantial, but it will be weakened if accumulator #4 is used the TGM way because the arms will get somewhat out of sync with the shoulders. I'm not saying that one is more powerful than the other. It's basically a matter of timing and preferences.

In his short but very effective instruction video, Hogan explains and shows how he uses his lower body to generate power. This is a far cry from how Homer Kelley saw it. In TGM, zone #1 - the body lane is about geometry and balance, while everything related to power is associated with the arms in zone #2 - the arms lane. So needless to say, Hogan's idea of a golf stroke was very different from Homer Kelley's. And that is reflected in the various stroke patterns.

Hogan used a very flat plane, his arms went left before impact and he had the most aggressive hip action I've ever seen on tape and there is also a lot of shoulder turn through impact. There aren't many TGM champions that play on the highest level, but you don't need that kind of hip action and shoulder turn to play a perfect TGM stroke because power is generated in the arms lane and the hands and arms are more freewheeling through impact. Or at least there is more independant arms motion towards impact due to the release of accumulator #4.

Everything is relative of course, but the TGM stroke is a lot more sequential as far as the relationship between pivot and arms is concerned than Hogan's stroke.

I believe the right forearm takeaway is more inline with the TGM use of accumulator #4 and the role Homer Kelley ascribed to the arms for power generation, than with a Ben Hogan type of stroke where everything should turn in sync through impact with as much pivot thrust as possible.
[/quote]

Who are the foremost expert/s now in tgm? What do they think on how exactly Hogan did it? How would tgm describe his swing in tgm terms in detail from takeaway to impact?

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1311352807' post='3414366']
Who are the foremost expert/s now in tgm? What do they think on how exactly Hogan did it? How would tgm describe his swing in tgm terms in detail from takeaway to impact?
[/quote]
Off topic but...


...its probably hard to get an A.I. involved in discussions like this. Ive seen a lot of disrespect coming non-certified minds in my search through the forums. After a run-in or 2 with stubborn folks they probably dont see commenting as an attractive idea. Heres something from a thread I saw recently...

[quote name='chris_golf' timestamp='1302204773' post='3130378']
I am a big believer that every great swing in golf which has won some mayor tournaments was simple. I believe that Mr. Hogans swing was as well simple and to take the mystery out of him I did the 24 components of his swing.

Many people think that on the Hogan forum they make it very complicated, but we don´t look just to the outside –we want to know what happens inside him.. and so we discuss a lot of details.

I own a copy of the yellow Book and from time to time I do a look into it and since I knew my own 24 components, it is very interesting for me to compare the components – beware I am not a GSED or anything in this direction, I just own the yellow book since 2 years and for this application it is perfect.

In TGM all swings will have 24 components:

[b]1 Grip-Basic: Vardon. [/b]

[u][color="#333333"][size="2"]10-1-A OVERLAPPING[/size][/color][/u][color="#333333"][size="2"] Any number of the last fingers of the Right Hand may overlap any number of the first fingers of the Left Hand. Increasing the amount of overlap further diminishes the leverage of the Right Hand[/size][/color]


[b]2 Grip-Type: Quadruple Action. [/b]

[size="2"]10-2-G TRIPLE OR QUADRUPLE ACTION[/size] [size="2"]By rotating the Hands with any of the above Grip Types so that either or both Wrists cannot **** On Plane without also Bending – Feel loses its geometric basis.[/size]


[b]3 Stroke Basic: Pitch.[/b]

[size="2"]10-3-B PITCH (or Slap) From a "down and in the front" Elbow Position, whether the Elbow is touching the Body or not, a Right Forearm underhand Pitch is delivered at the Aiming Point with a stiff wrist slapping motion. The only real difference from Punch is that the Right Elbow can lead the Hands into Release much farther with the same amount of Hip travel and is therefore conducive to greater Trigger Delay for Snap Releases[/size]


[b]4 Stroke Variation: Four Barrel[/b]

[size="2"]10-4-D FOUR BARREL This high performance Four Accumulator Combination can produce many problems during its mastery by the player. But it can make the difference in top competition. [/size]


[b]5 Plane Line: From Square / Open short clubs to Square / Closed with long[/b]


[size="2"]10-5-A SQUARE[/size][size="2"] SQUARE[/size] [size="2"]This "Basic" combination sts up the Plane Line and the Stance Line parallel to each other and to the Target Line – thr classic "Square Stance"[/size]

[size="2"]10-5-B SQUARE[/size][size="2"]-OPEN This combination differs from 10-5-A above, only in that the Stance Line is now Open to both the Plane Line and the Target Line – the classic "open Stance"[/size]

[size="2"]10-5-C SQUARE-CLOSED This combination differs from 10-5-A above, only in that the Stance Line is now Closed to both the Plane Line and the Target Line- the classic "Closed Stance"[/size]

[b]
6 Plane Angle Basic: Turned shoulder Plane or just under. IMO Elbow Plane[/b]

[size="2"]10-6-A ELBOW Where the Right Elbow touches the waist is the refernce point used for this Plane Angle. It is the "flattest" normal Plane that will still allow the Right Forearm to be On Plane during Impact.[/size]


[b]7 Plane Angle Variation: IMO The reverse Loop some would say Reverse Shift. Shaft off plane until release making the down swing simpler.[/b]

[size="2"]This is similar to the Reverse Shift except that the Shift is done with a looping motion of the Clubhead. Handled with skill, this Shift can be very effective.[/size]

[b]
8 Fix: None physically visible.[/b]

10-8-0[size="2"] GENERAL The three Impact Fix Positions are classified according to combinations of Impact and Address positions for the hands and body.[/size]


[b]9 Address: Special. Hips and knees hang a little open even with feet closed.[/b]

10-9-0 GENERAL The four Address Positions are classified according to combinations of Impact and Dddress positions for the hand and the body


[b]10 Hinge Action: Angled Hinge Action and with loger clubs a big follow thru swivel
[/b]

[size="2"]10-10-C ANGLED HINGE ACTION This simultaneous Closing and Layback procedure holds the Flat Left Wrist vertical to the Inclined Plane[/size]


[b]11 Pressure Point Combination: Probably [/b][b]4-2-3.[/b]

[size="2"]10-11-0-4 PRESSURE POINT #4 Is normally active direct drive of Accumulator #4 for actuating the Primary Lever Assembly for swinging[/size]

[size="2"]10-11-0-2 PRESSURE POINT #2 actuates the Secondary Lever Assembly – it is the swingers rope Handle application[/size]

[size="2"]10-11-0-3 PRESSURE POINT #3 can be either active or passice![/size]


[b]12 Pivot: Standard. Free in both directions.[/b]

[size="2"]10-12-A STANDARD PIVOT This Pivot is a free turn in both directions.[/size]


[b]13 Shoulder Turn: flat back and on plane down.[/b]

[size="2"]10-13-B FLAT This is a relatively flat Backstroke Shoulder Turn which places sth Shoulder " ON Plane"[/size]

[size="2"]10-13-D "ON PLANE" After a 13-B backstroke shoulder turn, the Right Shoulder moves toward Impact precisely on the preselected downstroke Clubshaft Plane, establishing and supporting the Power [/size][size="2"]Pa[/size][size="2"]ckage Delivery alignments. [/size]


[b]14 Hip Turn: Standard with heavy slide over the left foot before the top ready for a simple turn to the finish.[/b]

[size="2"]10-14-A STANDARD The StandardHip turn is a free turn in both directions with a weight shift in both directions[/size]


[b]15 Hip Action: Special. Power the downswing only.[/b]

10-15-0[size="2"] Hip Action classifications are based on the directins in which Ip Action -if any- acturates the Shoulder Turn.[/size]


[b]16 Knee Action: IMO STANDARD with a lot of hip slant! [/b]

[size="2"]10-16-A STANDARD This method involves extremes of action in both directions. Thai is , the Right Knee straight and the Left Knee bent at the Top Position and passing through a double Knee Bend on to the reversed condition of Left Knee straight and Right Knee bent for the finish. This sequence produces the maximum Hip slant at each end of the Stroke.[/size]


[b]17 Foot Action: Standard but minimal.[/b]

[size="2"]10-17-A STANDARD The left Foot is Rolled at the Top and the Right Foot is rolled and lifted at the Finish after passing through the sit down point with both feet flat.[/size]


[b]18 Wrist Action: Double. Cocked and bent slightly. [/b]

[size="2"]10-18-B DOUBLE The left wrist is in a Double Cocked position. It is restricted to true Centrifugal Force Swings.[/size]


[b]19 Lag Loading: Drag & Float[/b]

[size="2"]10-19-C DRAG LOADING Drag Loading is the Rope Handle Technique of the swinger[/size]

[size="2"]10-19-B FLOAT LOADING Downstroke loading This procedure delays the Wristcock until the Start Down[/size]

[b]
20 Trigger Type: Wrist Throw [/b]

[size="2"]10-20-E WRIST THROW Here, the Right Hand remains palm up to the Plane until Release.[/size]


[b]21 Power [/b][b]Package Assembly Point: Down Stroke Side.[/b]

[size="2"]10-21-E DOWNSTROKE SIDE The Hands do not wait for the Assembly to be completed at the Top vut move back toward the ball so that Assemly is actually completed at some pre-determined Point along the Line, while the Hands are moving along the Downstroke [/size][size="2"]Pa[/size][size="2"]th.[/size]


[b]22 Power [/b][b]Package Loading Action: Full sweep. At the start of the backswing to release point.[/b]

[size="2"]10-22-A FULL SWEEP This pattern starts the Loading Action at the beginning of the Backstroke and smoothly and evenly accelerates the Lever Assemblies so they arrive in position at the intended Assembly Point.[/size]

[b]
23 Power Package Delivery Path: Straight Line nearly[/b]

[size="2"]10-23-C STRAIGHT LINE This pattern takes the Hands beyond the Top of the line point, up and back along an Arc that is retraced when the Hands return to the Top-of-the-line point. This retracing is ideal for longitudinal acceleration.[/size]

[b]
24 Power Package Release: Snap and Flip release[/b]

[size="2"]10-24-E AUTOMATIC SNAP RELEASE This procedure drives the Lag Pressure Point through a Snap Release as if there were to be no Release at all.[/size]

10-24-F FLIP RELEASE This Pivot Controlled procedure causes Release to occur by an automatic FLIP –when the hands reach a certain point in relation to the body.




This is what I think he did, I learned already some parts from doing this! Hopefully some knowledged posters will give me there opinion...

Chris
[/quote]


And the response...(not sure who this is)

[quote name='TGMTeacher' timestamp='1302493956' post='3141040']
[size="2"]Your list is as little off. Hogan used a 10-2-A Weak Single Action grip because both his left thumb and #3 pressure were rotated towards the top of the shaft.

Stroke Variation was 3 barrel because he used a 10-23-C Top Arc and Straight Line delivery path. The retracing of the arc is conducive to drag loading and very incompatible to accumulator #1 ruling out a 4 barrel combo.

Basic Plane Angle was 10-6-B Turned Shoulder. He starts back on the elbow plane but shifts to the turned shoulder.

Plane Angle Variation was10-7-B Single Shift; elbow to turned shoulder. The reverse loop uses a square shoulder plane not a turned shoulder plane.

Address position was 10-9-A Standard. He used a square body position, mid-body position of the hands with a bent left and straight right wrist. If you were going to swing a rope to hit the ball (drag loading) this is exactly how you would stand.

Hinge Action was 10-10-D Dual Horizontal. He makes this evident with his pronation and supination description of his wrist motions.

Pivot was a 10-12-C Delayed Pivot. He used resistance of his hips and a braced right knee to coil against but used a free follow-through.

Hip Action was 10-15-B Delayed. He started his hands back first but lead his downswing with this hips.

Knee Action was 10-16-C Right Anchor. He kept his right knee bent in the backswing and finished on a straight left leg. Ballard refers to his type of finish as a "straight balanced finish".

Lag Loading was 10-19-C Drag loading. He arrived at the top fully loaded ruling out the need for downstroke or float loading.

Trigger Type was a combination of 10-20-C Shoulder Turn Throw with 10-20-E Wrist Throw.

Power Package Assemby Point was 10-21-A Top. His wrist were fully cocked when he reached the top of the line path.

Power Package Loading Action was 10-22-B Random Sweep because he started his hands and clubhead back together in one piece than swept to a loaded position at the top.

10-23-C is Top Arc And Straight Line not straight line.

He did use a 10-24-E Automatic Snap Release but not a 1-24-F Automatic Flip Release. An automatic flip released is caused by moving the club from one plane to another during release resulting in a flip type motion,

[/size]
[/quote]

[PingG10guy]

Just to clarify I havent come across many AI (which I would consider "expert") to break it down in that detail on golfwrx

[grahler]

Anyone know what was Homer Kelley's handicap?
What did he know about the swing from the inside?
Wasn't he like a 12-15 handi?

How come his teachings have not produced a slew of world beating golfers?

Who is TGM's poster child? Brian Gay?

If TGM and focus on the mechanical minutae were the path to better golf we would have seen better golfers produced by that system.

Right arm/left arm it does not matter that is simply a change in attention focus to differing aspects of the swing-what really matters is what the club is doing in relation to the ball and target. The act of focusing 100% and making good golf shots always results in a feel/intent based approach-totally different parts of the brain in action to produce the best results.
When any good golfer makes a good shot there are really no mechanics just a set of feelings.

No mechanical (swing thoughts) can ever hold up and continue to produce good results because the correct part of the brain is not being allowed to engage.

[Lefthook]

[size="2"][quote name='grahler' timestamp='1311437156' post='3416705']
How come his teachings have not produced a slew of world beating golfers?

Who is TGM's poster child? Brian Gay?

No mechanical (swing thoughts) can ever hold up and continue to produce good results because the correct part of the brain is not being allowed to engage.
[/quote]

Homer Kelley has had more influence on teachers than on players and that was his goal as well. TGM's poster childs are IMO, Mac O'Grady and Bobby Clampett.

Mac had a great influence on some of the best ball strikers a few years ago. And there's no doubt that he has had a massive influence on Stack & Tilt. Someone would even say he invented the S & T pattern. And most of the TGM criticists are strictly dependant on the terminology that Homer Kelley introduced to formulate their critics. [/size]

It is very difficult today to find someone with an interesting take on the golf stroke who isn't massively influenced by The Golfing Machine.

Homer understood very well that sophisticated mechanical swing thoughts doesn't work well out on the course. That's one of the reasons he emphasized "educated hands" and "hands controlled pivot".

Don't underestimate TGM and Homer Kelley. I don't think the most literal interpretation of his theories produces the best golf stroke on the planet, but he produced a lot of knowledge about ball striking that holds up today and the terminology he introduced has had a massive influence.

[grahler]

Mac, and Bobby both kinda revolted from TGM in the end. Mac went off on his own because TGM couldn't take him where he wanted to be stack and tilt is a result no doubt in part to Mac and I have no prob there. There is some great stuff in Homer's book for sure but you don't hit a golf ball with terminology.

Hands controlled pivot or pivot controlled hands is very much the choice of the person building the move and a lot of folks would argue on both sides of that one.

My point is TGM is like any sect-some good pieces and ideas are there but it is not the complete definitive work it was intended to be.

The results should have shown up by now.

The best golf swings are the ones that repeat the most predictably under stress and it goes to show that maybe endless fascination with mechanical minutae is NOT the best way to achieve a better move.

Maybe golfers should look more inside and less outside.

I get more out of Five Lessons than TGM because a lot of Five Lessons is written in terms of educated feels from what is happening inside-when proven greats talk about what goes on inside the swing it can be far more

valuable than focusing on the outside for a lot of folks.

Somebody on here wrote the other day that impact trumps mechanics and that is so true...

[Lefthook]

[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1311480020' post='3418191']
...

My point is TGM is like any sect-some good pieces and ideas are there but it is not the complete definitive work it was intended to be.

......

Somebody on here wrote the other day that impact trumps mechanics and that is so true...
[/quote]



You really don't have a clue about what Homer Kelley wrote about impact, do you?

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='Lefthook' timestamp='1311477362' post='3418075']
[size="2"][quote name='grahler' timestamp='1311437156' post='3416705']
How come his teachings have not produced a slew of world beating golfers?

Who is TGM's poster child? Brian Gay?

No mechanical (swing thoughts) can ever hold up and continue to produce good results because the correct part of the brain is not being allowed to engage.
[/quote]

Homer Kelley has had more influence on teachers than on players and that was his goal as well. [b]TGM's poster childs are IMO, Mac O'Grady [/b]and Bobby Clampett.

Mac had a great influence on some of the best ball strikers a few years ago. And there's no doubt that he has had a massive influence on Stack & Tilt. Someone would even say he invented the S & T pattern. And most of the TGM criticists are strictly dependant on the terminology that Homer Kelley introduced to formulate their critics. [/size]

It is very difficult today to find someone with an interesting take on the golf stroke who isn't massively influenced by The Golfing Machine.

Homer understood very well that sophisticated mechanical swing thoughts doesn't work well out on the course. That's one of the reasons he emphasized "educated hands" and "hands controlled pivot".

Don't underestimate TGM and Homer Kelley. I don't think the most literal interpretation of his theories produces the best golf stroke on the planet, but he produced a lot of knowledge about ball striking that holds up today and the terminology he introduced has had a massive influence.
[/quote]

The irony here is that Mac undertook his MORAD study as a way to pay homage to Homer Kelley and validate Homer's work. But instead, after "completing" his study, he says "The Golfing Machine is 60% right." He didn't elaborate further as to what was right or wrong with in in my presence and at the time, I knew so little about TGM that I wouldn't have known what to ask.

[grahler]

Sheesh L,

One fundamental alignment which all others derive from dang man you're not one of those TGM trumps anything else golf people are you?

[dap]

[quote name='Lefthook' timestamp='1311515032' post='3418669']
[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1311480020' post='3418191']
...

My point is TGM is like any sect-some good pieces and ideas are there but it is not the complete definitive work it was intended to be.

......

Somebody on here wrote the other day that impact trumps mechanics and that is so true...
[/quote]



You really don't have a clue about what Homer Kelley wrote about impact, do you?
[/quote]
Kelly was wrong about impact as well.Sustaining the line of compression or the "heavy hit" is a total myth that has been disproven by real scientists.

TGM is becoming less and less popular and not much discussed in many forums anymore.I suspect it's because most thought TGM was scientifically water tight but now that it's been exposed,many are turning away other than the die hard sect members.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1311557564' post='3420224']
[quote name='Lefthook' timestamp='1311515032' post='3418669']
[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1311480020' post='3418191']
...

My point is TGM is like any sect-some good pieces and ideas are there but it is not the complete definitive work it was intended to be.

......

Somebody on here wrote the other day that impact trumps mechanics and that is so true...
[/quote]



You really don't have a clue about what Homer Kelley wrote about impact, do you?
[/quote]
Kelly was wrong about impact as well.Sustaining the line of compression or the "heavy hit" is a total myth that has been disproven by real scientists.

TGM is becoming less and less popular and not much discussed in many forums anymore.I suspect it's because most thought TGM was scientifically water tight but now that it's been exposed,many are turning away other than the die hard sect members.
[/quote]

That reminds me of the baseball announcers that say a particular pitcher throws a "heavy ball." Jim Price says that all the time.

However, if (big if) a golfer can deliver a clubhead on the ball with a pre-stressed shaft, he would get a little extra kick out of the shaft. But I've never seen any high speed video evidence than any golfer is capable of doing this in a full swing.

[Lefthook]

[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1311531005' post='3419234']
Sheesh L,

One fundamental alignment which all others derive from dang man you're not one of those TGM trumps anything else golf people are you?
[/quote]


You're right. I'm not on of those. That should be clear from what I've written about the RFT in this thread, amongst other things.

[MacAttack67]

On 7/10/2011 at 11:30 PM, Squish said:

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1310354890' post='3380885']
Is it possible Hogan do same results (same look from outside) but do it with a left forearm takeaway mentally/consciously (remember he said you must do it with the left arm)? I think the trick is how to do that with the left arm driving (mental/consciousness on left arm) but at same time LETTING the right forearm/elbow behave that way (like RFT), especially with the very very fast swing tempo of hogan even in bs...try doing the RFT with a very fast bs as fast as hogan and it's very difficult, especially with a heavy club like hogan...I feel there's definitely should be help/effort with the left arm (or part of it..) at least on the beginning or before mid-bs...in short, maybe it's BOTH LFT and RFT?.. http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/%3C#EMO_DIR%23%3E/biggrin.gif
[/quote]

Hogangolf101,

For me,
It IS done and controlled with the left arm going back, as I wrote;
"The inward medial rotation of the left humerus at the waggle, is left arm control going back".

The right arm resists, folds and pivots around the right elbow.
That left arm is a weapon when torqued properly.
Plus the elbow can still flex when the left arm is torqued. Hogan called it tension vs tensity.

It is the purpose of Hogan's belt drill to train this action.
At address the back of left hand is pointing parallel to the flight line. At the waggle simply point the left elbow in the same direction.
That tension or torque makes the left arm a single lever that swings with the spine.
I pulse that inward medial contraction with a dorsal flexing of the right hand.
That combined motion when pulsed, brings the right elbow to the right side.
That is a rehearsal for impact.
At impact that torque of the left arm is released.

For me it's the same releasing unwinding arm action as throwing a Frisbee left handed.
The left arm is wound in opposite directions then released.
The back of the left hand and elbow is wound and pointing in the same direction.
When released they point opposite. It's supination at impact to pronation at release.

100% correct. The right gets a free ride from address to the delivery position and releases automatically. Nicklaus wrote this in every book.