Sam's guess at Hogan's secret...

[tembolo1284]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w92wg52nYxU"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w92wg52nYxU[/url]

Cool video.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1323367936' post='3911499']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1323363208' post='3911035']
Here's Hogan in 1953 laying it off.Now I do realise Ben didn't lay it off this much on every swing but I think this is a typical Hogan position on his full swings.

[attachment=941991:Ben Hogan Swing 1953.flv_snapshot_00.51_2011.12.09_00.47.24.jpg]
[/quote]


I like that pic...I do agree that's a typical Hogan laid off position. I just don't see/can't really tell that he's drastically opening the clubface there.
[/quote]

Exactly what I'm talking about Tembs. Again, layoff is more to get to elbow plane immediately and pitch elbow to preserve the left arm-shaft angle, not really to open face. If you can do both, you can even start the release simultaneously. In fact, with all of Hogan's tips and moves, you MUST release it ASAP or you'll hit it way right. The draw swing...with gear effect fade...it's so precious it's worth repeating...

[Pinsplitter59]

ohhh boy.... i've read a lot of this thread and kept out of it coz i don't understand most of it.
to me there seems to be a lot of confusion between a cause and a result.
describing results as if they are causes gets you nowhere.
Myth 1: Hogan "layed off" the club.
i have traced a number of his swings as best i can and the downswing path of the clubhead is almost identical to the backswing path.
sometimes its a bit over sometimes a bit under.
the hands never go under the backswing hands path, usually a bit over it.
the only thing that seems to happen is that if he has cupped his left wrist, he "uncups" it increasing the backward set of the right wrist.
his famous lag, i think, is simply retaining the set of the right wrist for a long time.

as far as supination goes, if it means the rolling anti-clockwise of the left arm or left hand etc, it is just not there in all the pics and vids i have seen.
the sepia punch shot shows the left arm and hand very firm and not rolled open,
the past impact full release next to that pic is interesting because it shows the right hand very much past the left hand,
he is certainly not holding off the release, if you thinks that's a "push" you're nuts.

the bottom 2 pics ahow the relative distances his shoulder, elbow, hands and clubhead travel into impact.
the elbow and right shoulder have not moved much, the hands a bit more, but the clubhead has moved a great distance.
how does this happen?
it can only be because he hits the bl***dy ball really hard with his right hand.
just like he said he did.

as in the ball throwing demonstration pics, i think his most important position was getting the right hand set at hip high so it was "vertical" (palm facing the horizon).
then he could hit hard by the left hand resisting and the right hand passing more under the left hand than around and over it.

i am just a dilletante with no expert knowledge, its just what i see with my brain.
consciuosly and deliberately releasing the right hand makes a huge difference to a swing follow through compared to just trying to allow centrifugal force make it happen.
so i now believe that Hogan's key was his right hand,
he was a "right handed" golfer... tee heeee....
[attachment=942599:Hogan_Hands_Clubhead_paths2.jpg]
anyhow good luck with all the super duperonation creation mysteries,
describing the universe doesn't explain how it was created.

[golow]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1323355502' post='3910221']
Golow

perhaps you can clarify a point of where the anatomical supination is defined to occur:

Example for right-handed player:

As the left arm naturally axially rotates CCW with the motion of the arm from R-to-L across the body -- if the left thumb remains pointing in its same general direction and does not rotate with the forearm (the wrist is allowed to swivel) is the rotation of the forearm called "supination" ?

Or, alternatively, must the hand also rotate in sych with the left forearm in order that there would be anatomical "supination"

Stated differently, can there be anatomical supination of the forearm without supination of the hand?

---

Cheers,
Drew
[/quote]

You said it yourself a few posts after the one I quoted - most of this thread is a semantic argument between egg heads with "proper" vocabulary and swing teachers/nuts with "golf anatomical" terms (paraphrased big time). Your question on whether there can be anatomical supination without supination of the hand is simple. Hands don't supinate. But that's a cheeky lab rat cop out side step answer.

I know exactly (I think) what you mean. If you CCW roll with more supination than upper arm external rotation you can indeed keep the thumb pointing in the same place relative to the swing plane with PF of the gloved hand. If done while in relative to full UD it frees up this relationship well.

I've actually used this thought feel to hit mid and short irons on some shots so my crappy pivot doesn't throw the club over plane. An easy way to see this is to grip the club in front of you and "Honda" the left hand twisting CCW without changing the club face a millimeter. This exposes the untanned side of the wrist and that is supination of the forearm while moving into PF.

The positions used to teach and evaluate range of motion never come close to the position of hands and arms in the swing while gripping a club. So I guess thinking about any motion of a single joint in such an awkward functional task is pointless.

Messed up thread, but I'm learning a lot - about what happens ? Sure. But definitely how and why.

golow(TM)

[drewspin]

Thanks, Golow -

I was looking for the egghead answer on whether the hands define supination or is it still supination if the forearm axially rotates but the hand stays behind (e.g., supination of the left forearm while the hand lags is another way to think of this action without thinking "handsy"). You answered my question.

I would posit that the axial rotation of the left arm "just happens" as a result of the natural body mechanics involved in swinging accross the sagital plane... our sagital plane bends a bit, but that is beside the point. The point is that you don't need to accentuate this rolling if you are trying to avoid the crossover release pull hook, rather you need to redirect the release sequence to allow the hands to come in in such a manner that the right hand can continue to pressure the right side of the shaft along the right forearm plane (elbow plane).

Golfbulldog put together this excellent video:

http://www.youtube.com/user/golfbulldog?feature=watch#p/u/16/2y0G22wZ160

Visually, I think Hogan is so seductive because his transition to the right forearm plane is so seamless, then POW... great compression.

[eightiron]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1323366053' post='3911295']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1323357117' post='3910377']
Sure drew , HK didn't write anything about it either

You got a swing of yours I can view ? I got a feeling it will be a goodie
[/quote]

I'll defer to you on Homer.

I sent you a PM with a link to my swing, to satisfy your curiosity or provide amusement or whatever. Still a transformation in progress.

Best,
Drew
[/quote]

I liked the swing a lot , didn't surprise me drew.... Lots of good pieces

[dap]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1323367936' post='3911499']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1323363208' post='3911035']
Here's Hogan in 1953 laying it off.Now I do realise Ben didn't lay it off this much on every swing but I think this is a typical Hogan position on his full swings.

[attachment=941991:Ben Hogan Swing 1953.flv_snapshot_00.51_2011.12.09_00.47.24.jpg]
[/quote]


I like that pic...I do agree that's a typical Hogan laid off position. I just don't see/can't really tell that he's drastically opening the clubface there.
[/quote]
Tembolo,if you agree that rotating the lead forearm opens and closes the clubface then a laid off position is an open position.

To achieve a laid off position the lead forearm needs to pronate quite significantly.This is an open position.I don't even see how that is debatable.

Another player who does this even more is Sergio.From an extreme laid off(open) position late into his downswing,he needs to tumble or shut the "triangle" as hard and as fast as he can to square it up.

Why do these players do this?Not sure but it's interesting to note they all have extreme amounts of lag

[dap]

[quote name='golow' timestamp='1323389769' post='3913499']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1323355502' post='3910221']
Golow

perhaps you can clarify a point of where the anatomical supination is defined to occur:

Example for right-handed player:

As the left arm naturally axially rotates CCW with the motion of the arm from R-to-L across the body -- if the left thumb remains pointing in its same general direction and does not rotate with the forearm (the wrist is allowed to swivel) is the rotation of the forearm called "supination" ?

Or, alternatively, must the hand also rotate in sych with the left forearm in order that there would be anatomical "supination"

Stated differently, can there be anatomical supination of the forearm without supination of the hand?

---

Cheers,
Drew
[/quote]


The positions used to teach and evaluate range of motion never come close to the position of hands and arms in the swing while gripping a club. So I guess thinking about any motion of a single joint in such an awkward functional task is pointless.



golow(TM)
[/quote]
This an excellent point.

During a dynamic golf swing,there are forces exerted on muscles and tendons that otherwise won't be present during isolated movement.

You need to take into account the weight of the club during the swing that depending on your swing speed can be upwards of 100lbs.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1323390982' post='3913577']
Thanks, Golow -

I was looking for the egghead answer on whether the hands define supination or is it still supination if the forearm axially rotates but the hand stays behind (e.g., supination of the left forearm while the hand lags is another way to think of this action without thinking "handsy"). You answered my question.

I would posit that the axial rotation of the left arm "just happens" as a result of the natural body mechanics involved in swinging accross the sagital plane... our sagital plane bends a bit, but that is beside the point. The point is that you don't need to accentuate this rolling if you are trying to avoid the crossover release pull hook, rather you need to redirect the release sequence to allow the hands to come in in such a manner that the right hand can continue to pressure the right side of the shaft along the right forearm plane (elbow plane).

Golfbulldog put together this excellent video:

http://www.youtube.com/user/golfbulldog?feature=watch#p/u/16/2y0G22wZ160

Visually, I think Hogan is so seductive because his transition to the right forearm plane is so seamless, then POW... great compression.
[/quote]

Any thoughts on HOW and your FEELS in getting to right forearm plane?

8i likes your swing, so I'm hearing you... :salute:

[drewspin]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1323398612' post='3914241']

Any thoughts on HOW and your FEELS in getting to right forearm plane?

8i likes your swing, so I'm hearing you... :salute:
[/quote]

He's being overly generous... My swing is being rebuilt and up on jack stands.

I will tell you that going to much flatter lie angles and clubs with some HEFT was a breakthrough for me.

That led to more knee bend, which is another key of mine.

The feel and keeping core connection with the right upper arm so late is very different coming from an upright pattern.

brad Hughes is helping me with the How.

It is a lot of work in the core and below the surface.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

[quote name='golow' timestamp='1323320960' post='3909153']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1323318243' post='3909005']
[quote name='golow' timestamp='1323315394' post='3908821']
I bowed out of this thread long ago, but feel the need to clarify something for some (I think).
[b]
Pure RD or cocking of the wrists is not raising the shaft straight up (perpendicular to the target line) from address. It is lifting the club 15-30º right or towards the back foot. Dependent on strength of grip of course. RD and the UD is parallel or perfectly in line with the radius (bone[/b]). To say it another way - cocking the club straight up is a blend of RD and lead wrist DF and this indeed maintains a square face .... that's just not how the wrists set and then UD into impact.

Tee is right on with his statement that UD (which happens whether you like it or not) closes the face 20+º's. You add some lead arm humeral external rotation, and open shoulders into impact and you have your inside approach with an open face. Pivot driven knucklefade.

I just recently saw a pic of AK at impact in this position fully pronated - great still. I'm still looking for it.

golow™

**edit - syntax
[/quote]

unfortunately you didnt read the context of what was written and are once again changing the variables such as grip and cocking the club upwards on a plane . weak left hand grip can **** straight up and down , with a strong grip you are turning the left forearm to a different plane and changing plane angles and path that the club takes but in essence it still does not close it .... the club head will uncock downwards on the same plane and the face will still not close to the path it comes down on..... all you are doing is introducing #3 accum variable...... in fact the more turned the forearm is with a stronger grip and **** it on the plane and uncock the more open the face will be relative to the original target line ....... weak grip straight up and down face will be square
[/quote]

I didn't take anything out of context, didn't even reply to any one particular post, and am certainly not "once again" changing variables as this was my first post on the subject and my first post in the thread for 65 pages. Don't get it twisted I like your posts and have for a good while.

My explanation of true RD and UD is fact. Cocking the club straight up is not RD unless your thumb is significantly on the target side of the shaft. Not the most important point though as setting the club in the back swing can be done many different ways - think Ryan Moore when his wrist was injured.

I was just trying to clarify another misunderstood movement definition.

golow(tm)
[/quote]

no this is wrong gollow, lol, ..radial deviation from the anatomically neutral position, describes that plane of motion.

if the wrist is not in the anatomically neutral position then radial deviation is an out of plane motion.

what you are describing is a combination of both moving the wrist to the anatomically neutral position and radial deviating.

the moving of the wrist to the anatomically neutral position may require a plane shift and/or rotation.

a plane shift and/or rotation effects the plane of any subsequent anatomically neutral ulnar deviation, this may open or close a tool if you are going to measure open and closed by returning the end of the tool to from where it started with ulnar deviation combined with another now necessary movement.

you cant cherrypick what you want to stringently define and describe, especially if the purpose is to point out that others are unwittingly doing so, ..and you sure as hell better not do so if your planning on writing any pulp magazine golf instruction series, ..prof teeace will out you, you might lose your teaching post, lmao.


but the fact is in any sane world{**}, any way you define it, and certainly this should be the case when it is the one person deciding on the definitions for the purpose of research, an isolated radial deviation, whether in-plane or out of plane, followed by its opposite isolated ulnar deviation to the same angle/point in space does nothing, ..its as if neither ever happened.

neither opening or closing anything.

any face opening or closing is the result of independent anatomical movements of the bones of the hand and/or other independent forces of physics.

note: {**}[i]the hogan forum isn't part of the sane world.[/i]

[dap]

Tembolo,here is an excerpt from Schlee's Maximum Golf.....

"Then he showed me by feel.He asked me to make a backturn,then hold it at the top.From behind he(Hogan) put his hand on the club head and pulled it straight down my back about 6 inches.When I did that,I felt my right elbow drop and slightly onto the front of my hip.I felt my right palm point at the sky.And I felt very open.

"John," he said,"that is called laying the club off.When that move is accompanied by your knees and hips starting the target turn,you'll never lose it left.Lay it off and go get 'em!"

Now Hogan could have been all BS telling Schlee that but the move worked for him.

[eightiron]

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1323401151' post='3914461']
[quote name='golow' timestamp='1323320960' post='3909153']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1323318243' post='3909005']
[quote name='golow' timestamp='1323315394' post='3908821']
I bowed out of this thread long ago, but feel the need to clarify something for some (I think).
[b]
Pure RD or cocking of the wrists is not raising the shaft straight up (perpendicular to the target line) from address. It is lifting the club 15-30º right or towards the back foot. Dependent on strength of grip of course. RD and the UD is parallel or perfectly in line with the radius (bone[/b]). To say it another way - cocking the club straight up is a blend of RD and lead wrist DF and this indeed maintains a square face .... that's just not how the wrists set and then UD into impact.

Tee is right on with his statement that UD (which happens whether you like it or not) closes the face 20+º's. You add some lead arm humeral external rotation, and open shoulders into impact and you have your inside approach with an open face. Pivot driven knucklefade.

I just recently saw a pic of AK at impact in this position fully pronated - great still. I'm still looking for it.























go

**edit - syntax
[/quote]

unfortunately you didnt read the context of what was written and are once again changing the variables such as grip and cocking the club upwards on a plane . weak left hand grip can **** straight up and down , with a strong grip you are turning the left forearm to a different plane and changing plane angles and path that the club takes but in essence it still does not close it .... the club head will uncock downwards on the same plane and the face will still not close to the path it comes down on..... all you are doing is introducing #3 accum variable...... in fact the more turned the forearm is with a stronger grip and **** it on the plane and uncock the more open the face will be relative to the original target line ....... weak grip straight up and down face will be square
[/quote]

I didn't take anything out of context, didn't even reply to any one particular post, and am certainly not "once again" changing variables as this was my first post on the subject and my first post in the thread for 65 pages. Don't get it twisted I like your posts and have for a good while.









My explanation of true RD and UD is fact. Cocking the club straight up is not RD unless your thumb is significantly on the target side of









the shaft. Not the most important point though as setting the club in the back swing can be done many different ways - think Ryan Moore when his wrist was injured.

I was just trying to clarify another misunderstood movement definition.












golow(tm)
[/quote]

no this is wrong gollow, lol, ..radial deviation from the anatomically neutral position, describes that plane of motion.

if the wrist is not in the anatomically neutral position then radial deviation is an out of plane motion.

what you are describing is a combination of both moving the wrist to the anatomically neutral position and radial deviating.

the moving of the wrist to the anatomically neutral position may require a plane shift and/or rotation.


a plane shift and/or rotation effects the plane of any subsequent anatomically neutral ulnar deviation, this may open or close a tool if you are going to measure open and closed by returning the end of the tool to from where it started with ulnar deviation combined with another now necessary movement.

you cant cherrypick what you want to stringently define and describe, especially if the purpose is to point out that others are

unwittingly doing so, ..and you sure as hell better not do so if your planning on writing any pulp magazine golf instruction series, ..prof teeace will out you, you might lose your teaching post, lmao.


but the fact is in any sane world{**}, any way you define it, and certainly this should be the case when it is the one person deciding on the definitions for the purpose of research, an isolated radial deviation, whether in-plane or out of plane, followed by its opposite isolated ulnar deviation to the same angle/point in space does nothing, ..its as if neither ever happened.

neither opening or closing anything.

any face opening or closing is the result of independent anatomical movements of the bones of the hand and/or other independent forces of physics.

note: {**}[i]the hogan forum isn't part of the sane world.[/i]
[/quote]


I'm still in the doghouse on this one .... However the fact is , he can turn **** on his plane 100 degrees to the right for all I care and uncck ... It ain't gonna open or close chit in regard to the face.... One dimensional thinking ... Laughable just adding 3 accum

[Pinsplitter59]

i really don't know what's wrong with some of you folks.
lay the club/hands off?
show me ONE sequence where Hogan has done this.
ALL sequences i have seen show the downswing hands being above the backswing hands.
please prove me wrong.
the "lay off" is a MYTH.....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

perhaps Schlee simply had his hands too high????????

[dap]

[quote name='Pinsplitter59' timestamp='1323404917' post='3914753']
i really don't know what's wrong with some of you folks.
lay the club/hands off?
show me ONE sequence where Hogan has done this.
ALL sequences i have seen show the downswing hands being above the backswing hands.
please prove me wrong.
the "lay off" is a MYTH.....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

perhaps Schlee simply had his hands too high????????
[/quote]
I just posted a pic of Hogan in a laid off position.

Hogan coming over the top of his backswing plane only shows he had an inside takeaway.It doesn't mean the club is not being laid off in the transition.

[golow]

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1323401151' post='3914461']

no this is wrong gollow, lol, ..radial deviation from the anatomically neutral position, describes that plane of motion.

if the wrist is not in the anatomically neutral position then radial deviation is an out of plane motion.

what you are describing is a combination of both moving the wrist to the anatomically neutral position and radial deviating.
the moving of the wrist to the anatomically neutral position may require a plane shift and/or rotation.

a plane shift and/or rotation effects the plane of any subsequent anatomically neutral ulnar deviation, this may open or close a tool if you are going to measure open and closed by returning the end of the tool to from where it started with ulnar deviation combined with another now necessary movement.

you cant cherrypick what you want to stringently define and describe, especially if the purpose is to point out that others are unwittingly doing so, ..and you sure as hell better not do so if your planning on writing any pulp magazine golf instruction series, ..prof teeace will out you, you might lose your teaching post, lmao.


but the fact is in any sane world{**}, any way you define it, and certainly this should be the case when it is the one person deciding on the definitions for the purpose of research, an isolated radial deviation, whether in-plane or out of plane, followed by its opposite isolated ulnar deviation to the same angle/point in space does nothing, ..its as if neither ever happened.

neither opening or closing anything.

any face opening or closing is the result of independent anatomical movements of the bones of the hand and/or other independent forces of physics.

note: {**}[i]the hogan forum isn't part of the sane world.[/i]
[/quote]

I agree with every you said ... I said many of the same things in subsequent posts ... especially my last. And I do agree that cocking the wrist from set up to the up and 20-30º away from target is achieved by getting back to lead hand anatomical neutral mostly with trailing wrist DF. It's the only way to radial deviate from a true definition standpoint. 1st ray (metacarpal) must align with the radius. Cocking straight up from the start is a combo of RD and DF or even a little pronation all of the gloved hand. Really a worthless argument between me and 8 earlier.

Please don't ever think I would ever care to write any descriptive or research findings on the golf swing - I'm not qualified and it doesn't pay. I just have access to a million $ motion lab so we screw around for grins.

Like i said in my last post - golf anatomy descriptions vs textbook don't jibe, nor should they. I got involved just to clarify a standalone definition or two. Then I got sucked in to you Hogan guy's vortex.

I might just go back to the equipment forums where we are all equally simple and all like shiny things. The post never get as confusing when the consist of cool responses like "+1" and " "

golow(TM)

[JOEGOLFWRX]

[quote name='golow' timestamp='1323406021' post='3914801']

... Then I got sucked in to you Hogan guy's vortex.

[/quote]

LOL

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzlG28B-R8Y[/media]


can you explain pronation and supination to teeace ? its less complex to define but teeace is having all sorts of trouble with it, lol.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1323407509' post='3914899']
[
can you explain pronation and supination to teeace ? its less complex to define but teeace is having all sorts of trouble with it, lol.
[/quote]

Can you read Joe? He has explained those just same way than me already and tried to explain those to HG also.

Here it was:

golow

Posted 18 September 2011 - 02:09 PM
[b]Yes Hogan used "supination" in 5L to describe wrist action in the sagittal plane (flex/extend) ... and that's just misuse of the word.

Confusing thing for some is that it is accepted to use supination/pronation interchangeably with inversion/eversion of the foot. So I guess some do the same with the hand. [/b]

golow™

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1323400490' post='3914389']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1323398612' post='3914241']

Any thoughts on HOW and your FEELS in getting to right forearm plane?

8i likes your swing, so I'm hearing you... :salute:
[/quote]

He's being overly generous... My swing is being rebuilt and up on jack stands.

I will tell you that going to much flatter lie angles and clubs with some HEFT was a breakthrough for me.

That led to more knee bend, which is another key of mine.

The feel and keeping core connection with the right upper arm so late is very different coming from an upright pattern.

brad Hughes is helping me with the How.

It is a lot of work in the core and below the surface.
[/quote]

I like the right armpit connection. Thanks. Good luck on the swing revamp.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1323408539' post='3914919']
[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1323407509' post='3914899']
[
can you explain pronation and supination to teeace ? its less complex to define but teeace is having all sorts of trouble with it, lol.
[/quote]

[b]Can you read Joe? [/b] He has explained those just same way than me already and tried to explain those to HG also.

Here it was:

golow

Posted 18 September 2011 - 02:09 PM
Yes Hogan used "supination" in 5L to describe wrist action in the sagittal plane (flex/extend) ... and that's just misuse of the word.

Confusing thing for some is that it is accepted to use supination/pronation interchangeably with inversion/eversion of the foot. So I guess some do the same with the hand.

golow™
[/quote]

yep, my reading/comprehension skills are pretty good, ..yours are in doubt, as youve just shown again.

that quote (from 2 months ago) is gallows opinion as to what he believes hogan was trying to communicate in his magazine series.

i was asking gallow for his stringent definition on pronation and supination, independent of golf let alone hogan, so that maybe you could better understand that when you, ..personally, ..palmer flex, you are also supinating your forearm (amongst other movements).

[TeeAce]

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1323410384' post='3915025']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1323408539' post='3914919']
[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1323407509' post='3914899']
[
can you explain pronation and supination to teeace ? its less complex to define but teeace is having all sorts of trouble with it, lol.
[/quote]

[b]Can you read Joe? [/b] He has explained those just same way than me already and tried to explain those to HG also.

Here it was:

golow

Posted 18 September 2011 - 02:09 PM
Yes Hogan used "supination" in 5L to describe wrist action in the sagittal plane (flex/extend) ... and that's just misuse of the word.

Confusing thing for some is that it is accepted to use supination/pronation interchangeably with inversion/eversion of the foot. So I guess some do the same with the hand.

golow™
[/quote]

yep, my reading/comprehension skills are pretty good, ..yours are in doubt, as youve just shown again.

that quote (from 2 months ago) is gallows opinion as to what he believes hogan was trying to communicate in his magazine series.

i was asking gallow for his stringent definition on pronation and supination, independent of golf let alone hogan, so that maybe you could better understand that when you, ..personally, ..palmer flex, you are also supinating your forearm (amongst other movements).
[/quote]

He confirmed that Hogan used those terms worn.

Joe step to your car and turn the wheels to the left. Your left forearm rotates counterclockwise, but do you supinate, No. If you supinate you have to get your fingers out of the steering wheel.

It's about same with PF and UD. Your wrist rotates bit and also your wrist and closest part to that of the forearm, but that's not supination, because your upper and middle part of the forearm doesn't rotate. It's just same in my PF video.

[svsvincenzo]

Just a poll check guys, if you're going to pinpoint in one to 3 words an answer to the OP topic---what prevented Hogan's club from closing or turning over early--what would it be? No debates at this time please (I promise none from me..)

Mine--I think it's secret no. 9, but since it's a secret, I'd say "hip thrust" (which by the way is what I think Sam Snead is showing in the picture posted by OP).

What do you think? Please, non-participants in back and forth debates/tirades, post as well.

Tee can you start it? What do you think? 3 words.

[eightiron]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1323408539' post='3914919']
[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1323407509' post='3914899']
[
can you explain pronation and supination to teeace ? its less complex to define but teeace is having all sorts of trouble with it, lol.
[/quote]

Can you read Joe? He has explained those just same way than me already and tried to explain those to HG also.

Here it was:

golow

Posted 18 September 2011 - 02:09 PM
[b]Yes Hogan used "supination" in 5L to describe wrist action in the sagittal plane (flex/extend) ... and that's just misuse of the word.

Confusing thing for some is that it is accepted to use supination/pronation interchangeably with inversion/eversion of the foot. So I guess some do the same with the hand. [/b]


golow
[/quote]


Interesting view that golow believes that the drawings in 5 lessons are supposed to be describing the sagittal plane , you may have to ask the drawer of the pics and although they are a face on photo , it's not beyond to grasp that the pics were done from that angle , since hogan wanted to show what happened from impact and beyond , so from a frontal plane perspective it's a different story .... In any case I would relate it more to the inclined plane of the swing

[TeeAce]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1323411518' post='3915067']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1323408539' post='3914919']
[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1323407509' post='3914899']
[
can you explain pronation and supination to teeace ? its less complex to define but teeace is having all sorts of trouble with it, lol.
[/quote]

Can you read Joe? He has explained those just same way than me already and tried to explain those to HG also.

Here it was:

golow

Posted 18 September 2011 - 02:09 PM
[b]Yes Hogan used "supination" in 5L to describe wrist action in the sagittal plane (flex/extend) ... and that's just misuse of the word.

Confusing thing for some is that it is accepted to use supination/pronation interchangeably with inversion/eversion of the foot. So I guess some do the same with the hand. [/b]


golow
[/quote]


Interesting view that golow believes that the drawings in 5 lessons are supposed to be describing the sagittal plane , you may have to ask the drawer of the pics and although they are a face on photo , it's not beyond to grasp that the pics were done from that angle , since hogan wanted to show what happened from impact and beyond , so from a frontal plane perspective it's a different story .... In any case I would relate it more to the inclined plane of the swing
[/quote]

Its not only the drawings eight, it's also the text where he describes what he wanted to happen with that move. Low boring ball flight = strong face without closing it.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1323411371' post='3915061']

Your wrist rotates bit and also your wrist and closest part to that of the forearm, but that's not supination, because your upper and middle part of the forearm doesn't rotate. It's just same in my PF video.
[/quote]

if your rotating the bottom 1/3 of your forearm without rotating the top 2/3, you need to get yourself down to accident and emergency, lol.

..of course if your rotating the bottom forearm relative to the top your just supinating, as hogan said, you might feel like your doing something anatomically impossible like written above, this could be causing you to use the wrong terms,

...kinda ironic aye, lol.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1323413610' post='3915135']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1323411371' post='3915061']

Your wrist rotates bit and also your wrist and closest part to that of the forearm, but that's not supination, because your upper and middle part of the forearm doesn't rotate. It's just same in my PF video.
[/quote]

if your rotating the bottom 1/3 of your forearm without rotating the top 2/3, you need to get yourself down to accident and emergency, lol.

..of course if your rotating the bottom forearm relative to the top your just supinating, as hogan said, you might feel like your doing something anatomically impossible like written above, this could be causing you to use the wrong terms,

...kinda ironic aye, lol.
[/quote]

It's pity you don't want to try and understand. If trying, you will again see I was totally right and no hurts.

[Pinsplitter59]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1323405364' post='3914777']
[quote name='Pinsplitter59' timestamp='1323404917' post='3914753']
i really don't know what's wrong with some of you folks.
lay the club/hands off?
show me ONE sequence where Hogan has done this.
ALL sequences i have seen show the downswing hands being above the backswing hands.
please prove me wrong.
the "lay off" is a MYTH.....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

perhaps Schlee simply had his hands too high????????
[/quote]
I just posted a pic of Hogan in a laid off position.

Hogan coming over the top of his backswing plane only shows he had an inside takeaway.It doesn't mean the club is not being laid off in the transition.
[/quote]

well really Dap, i can't let that pass.
a pic in a laid off position? one pic in relation to nothing.
what is "laid off" to you?
you can see clearly in my pic above that the hands are over the backswing hands and the clubhead is just barely under the backswing path.
this may be because of what Hogan said about the downswing plane being a bit more to the right of target and angled upwards.
the idea that he dropped his hands and clubhead INCHES is just preposterous, as any sequence will show you if just look.

also the other fellow who said the clubhead weighs 100lbs when being swung is again being simply wrong in terminology.
if it weighed 100lbs noone could swing it.
possibly he means it has a knetic energy of 100 ft/lbs or whatever the correct way of defining force/momentum is.
but how can someone say something so patently ridiculous.

this thread it seems will never die.
it has become ridiculous and pointless imho.
all you guys are examining the pistons, valves, crankshaft etc when its the gasoline that makes a car work you dummies.

[dap]

[quote name='Pinsplitter59' timestamp='1323425431' post='3915341']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1323405364' post='3914777']
[quote name='Pinsplitter59' timestamp='1323404917' post='3914753']
i really don't know what's wrong with some of you folks.
lay the club/hands off?
show me ONE sequence where Hogan has done this.
ALL sequences i have seen show the downswing hands being above the backswing hands.
please prove me wrong.
the "lay off" is a MYTH.....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

perhaps Schlee simply had his hands too high????????
[/quote]
I just posted a pic of Hogan in a laid off position.

Hogan coming over the top of his backswing plane only shows he had an inside takeaway.It doesn't mean the club is not being laid off in the transition.
[/quote]

well really Dap, i can't let that pass.
a pic in a laid off position? one pic in relation to nothing.
what is "laid off" to you?
you can see clearly in my pic above that the hands are over the backswing hands and the clubhead is just barely under the backswing path.
this may be because of what Hogan said about the downswing plane being a bit more to the right of target and angled upwards.
the idea that he dropped his hands and clubhead INCHES is just preposterous, as any sequence will show you if just look.

also the other fellow who said the clubhead weighs 100lbs when being swung is again being simply wrong in terminology.
if it weighed 100lbs noone could swing it.
possibly he means it has a knetic energy of 100 ft/lbs or whatever the correct way of defining force/momentum is.
but how can someone say something so patently ridiculous.

this thread it seems will never die.
it has become ridiculous and pointless imho.
all you guys are examining the pistons, valves, crankshaft etc when its the gasoline that makes a car work you dummies.
[/quote]
That's fine if you disagree that Hogan didn't lay it off.I am not pushing it down your throat.This is a discussion forum and we all have different opinions.

As for the 100lbs,really that was just to make a point that the forces on the muscles and the tendons are not the same as when you attempt to make the same motion in posed positions.I believe golow made that point first and I agreed.

I got that 100lb figure years ago from reading an article that said the driver weighs 100lbs momentarily at impact.I will look into it and get back to you if there is any truth to it.

[TeeAce]

 

 

well really Dap, i can't let that pass.

a pic in a laid off position? one pic in relation to nothing.

what is "laid off" to you?

 

 

 

 

 

Now it got relation.

 

That's the move I talk about as opening the triangle. External rotation of the right shoulder bringing the right elbow toward the target line and well under the left. I also call it (as many others) dropping the club behind. Of course it's helped with many other moves in body, like lowering the right elbow and using the lower body correctly, but that move is something we have to learn, because nature tells us to close the triangle (thats only said by experience of few thousand students so far ;))

 

What he learned to prevent hook was simply keep on that muscular action when pivot and PF/UD combination shut the face. That's why we see him keeping the right elbow still in at impact and bended. I think Snead learned the same thing and is even better example at impact than Hogan, but for same reason.

[dap]

Pinsplitter,I found this.

This basically says that there is 100lbs of centripetal pull on the hands at impact,albeit momentarily.I am not saying this article is accurate but I suppose it's up to you to disprove.

At least now if I am patently ridiculous,I am at least joined by others.

http://www.the-efficient-golfer.com/yips.html