Sam's guess at Hogan's secret...

[JOEGOLFWRX]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1323501602' post='3919767']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1323487242' post='3919149']

I will use Grant Waite as an example.

[attachment=943819:Grant Waite - 2009 DTL.flv_snapshot_00.11_2011.12.10_11.14.01.jpg]

[attachment=943821:Grant Waite - 2009 DTL.flv_snapshot_00.11_2011.12.10_11.14.17.jpg]
[/quote]

You can't use those two images to show anything.

If that's really how you make your conclusions I understand perfectly why we have different opinions.

[b] Not one real professional would use two photos like that as an example... or give some opinions by iPhone video. Never.[/b]
[/quote]

[b]why do you post single frames of video (and iphone video) to demonstrate then ?[/b]

its obvious you have your own swing in crystal clear video from a bunch of angles. why did you post 1 image to demonstrate 'lag', whatever 'lag' is.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1323608563' post='3923463']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1323501602' post='3919767']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1323487242' post='3919149']

I will use Grant Waite as an example.

[attachment=943819:Grant Waite - 2009 DTL.flv_snapshot_00.11_2011.12.10_11.14.01.jpg]

[attachment=943821:Grant Waite - 2009 DTL.flv_snapshot_00.11_2011.12.10_11.14.17.jpg]
[/quote]

You can't use those two images to show anything.

If that's really how you make your conclusions I understand perfectly why we have different opinions.

[b] Not one real professional would use two photos like that as an example... or give some opinions by iPhone video. Never.[/b]
[/quote]

[b]why do you post single frames of video (and iphone video) to demonstrate then ?[/b]



its obvious you have your own swing in crystal clear video from a bunch of angles. why did you post 1 image to demonstrate 'lag', whatever 'lag' is.
[/quote]

Because you guys asked and that can be quite well seen from there. But to post two images with that far from each other is back to 60's in research.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

lol, i didnt ask to see anything. ..im not even sure how id define lag, but id agree that it cant be shown in one photo without inferring other things, or to put it another way i cant tell how you define it without more.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1323588416' post='3923261']

lag myth too. its not get by genetic or swing action, its can be get by grip and stance.
[/quote]

Club head lag comes from pivot lag. Get the hips forward and turning before the hands reach the right thigh.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1323615643' post='3923693']
lol, i didnt ask to see anything. ..im not even sure how id define lag, but id agree that it cant be shown in one photo without inferring other things, or to put it another way i cant tell how you define it without more.
[/quote]

We measure that and my numbers are quite big.

[Asleep]

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[JOEGOLFWRX]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1323618725' post='3923831']
We measure that and my numbers are quite big.
[/quote]

any more info on how you chose to define it ? what are you measuring, relative to what, and when.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1323618725' post='3923831']
[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1323615643' post='3923693']
lol, i didnt ask to see anything. ..im not even sure how id define lag, but id agree that it cant be shown in one photo without inferring other things, or to put it another way i cant tell how you define it without more.
[/quote]

We measure that and my numbers are quite big.
[/quote]

what mean numbers big? angle big (no lag,), or lag big?

[dap]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1323614027' post='3923619']
[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1323608563' post='3923463']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1323501602' post='3919767']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1323487242' post='3919149']

I will use Grant Waite as an example.

[attachment=943819:Grant Waite - 2009 DTL.flv_snapshot_00.11_2011.12.10_11.14.01.jpg]

[attachment=943821:Grant Waite - 2009 DTL.flv_snapshot_00.11_2011.12.10_11.14.17.jpg]
[/quote]

You can't use those two images to show anything.

If that's really how you make your conclusions I understand perfectly why we have different opinions.

[b] Not one real professional would use two photos like that as an example... or give some opinions by iPhone video. Never.[/b]
[/quote]

[b]why do you post single frames of video (and iphone video) to demonstrate then ?[/b]



its obvious you have your own swing in crystal clear video from a bunch of angles. why did you post 1 image to demonstrate 'lag', whatever 'lag' is.
[/quote]

Because you guys asked and that can be quite well seen from there. But to post two images with that far from each other is back to 60's in research.
[/quote]
I posted those 2 pics of Grant because they coincided with the pics of Hogan that was posted by pinsplitter.They both have roughly transitioned about the same amount.

If you wanted the 2 pics closer together,just ask and you shall receive...sheesh.

[attachment=947387:Grant Waite - 2009 DTL.flv_snapshot_00.11_2011.12.10_11.14.01.jpg]

[attachment=947389:Grant Waite - 2009 DTL.flv_snapshot_00.11_2011.12.13_00.20.50.jpg]

Does that change anything?What the heck is your point anyway other than just to be a nuisance?

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1323618725' post='3923831']
[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1323615643' post='3923693']
lol, i didnt ask to see anything. ..im not even sure how id define lag, but id agree that it cant be shown in one photo without inferring other things, or to put it another way i cant tell how you define it without more.
[/quote]

We measure that and my numbers are quite big.
[/quote]

Joe,

We're talking about accumulator lag here - namely the angle between the left forearm and shaft.

Tee,

You're not measuring correctly, because your wristcock lag is not big. To get big lag, you simply follow Hogan's advice, which is not to try to keep the triangle open, which you are fixated on, but rather to start with the hips.
You must get your lower body COG far enough forward or else you will throw the clubhead backwards, resulting in wristcock throwaway. You don't want handle-dragging, but rather handle-dropping combined with a good hip shift. Hogan had the best hip action in golf, past, present, and probably for the future too. But there is one guy who is a strong second. This video has a nice reference line for hip reference.

http://home.comcast.net/~peter.dillard/SAGF%20Library/videos/couples_side_clip.html

[JOEGOLFWRX]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1323726265' post='3929539']
We're talking about accumulator lag here - namely the angle between the left forearm and shaft.
[/quote]
yeah thats what id call lag, give or take, reckon most would agree, ...wonder what tee is measuring given the photo he put up to show big measured lag.

[svsvincenzo]

Tee...got a pic of the hands near right thigh?

 

From which direction you want it? :D

 

 

your lag very little

[svsvincenzo]

well really Dap, i can't let that pass.

a pic in a laid off position? one pic in relation to nothing.

what is "laid off" to you?

 

 

 

 

 

Now it got relation.

 

That's the move I talk about as opening the triangle. External rotation of the right shoulder bringing the right elbow toward the target line and well under the left. I also call it (as many others) dropping the club behind. Of course it's helped with many other moves in body, like lowering the right elbow and using the lower body correctly, but that move is something we have to learn, because nature tells us to close the triangle (thats only said by experience of few thousand students so far ;))

 

What he learned to prevent hook was simply keep on that muscular action when pivot and PF/UD combination shut the face. That's why we see him keeping the right elbow still in at impact and bended. I think Snead learned the same thing and is even better example at impact than Hogan, but for same reason.

 

Is that a draw or fade swing?

 

Ahaaaaaa.... Ok i understand what you mean.

unfortunately its an illusion.... a myth that has been promulgated and believed by constant repetition.

you can see in this new pic that the hands and clubhead DO NOT go underneath the backswing positions.

(sorry it was a bit hard to trace the clubhead in this video).

the idea that he is dropping his hands is simply wrong.

did he not say that the hands get a free ride down?

does that not mean they do nothing in the first part of the downswing?

you can see the white line plane, its angle does not change (position obviously has to),

if the hands "laid off" that plane angle would be shallower, well its not is it?

 

i have traced a lot of Hogan's swings and this is always the same result i get.

you can see the slight similarity to Snead where the hands go in a bit then go up,

Snead did this with a lot more "in",

but they both come down "over the top" of the backswing positions (Hogan so slightly, Snead a lot more).

reminiscent of how he described the underhand basketball throw.

 

don't get me wrong, i don't believe i know anything much really,

for me this is research and learning, but when something seems wrong to me i try to examine it and see if its me or them that got it wrong.

the myth about dropping the club or laying it off is one of the great Hogan myths imho.

 

the other thing i believe is an illusion is what you call "closing the triangle".

if you , on takeaway, roll the clubface open or rotate your left arm clockwise, you should get to a position at the top where the inside of the forearms are as close to each other as your anatomy will allow.

from this position it is impossible to "close" them (get them closer together).

(well you can if you bend your left arm!!)

Hogan , of course, empahsised keeping the inside of the forearms very close together (the bound with rope illustration).

Players like Nicklaus for example with his "flying" right elbow may have been able to close his triangle because the forearms were wider apart.

 

moving on....

this just my idea for what its worth, in relation to all this talk about how he squared the clubface.

maybe he just tried to NOT close the clubface.

if there is one thing that will give you that downswing plane it is trying to hit the ball with the hosel of the club,

a right hand under slicing action.

the clubhead will square naturally with the rotation.

just hit it hard with your right hand.

 

the other thing about the right arm being bent at impact.

it is simply a result of how "high" above the ball you are.

if you get "low" into the ball (Hogan, Garcia, A. Quiros etc.) your arm has to bent or will hit behind the ball,

players who are "higher" have to straighten the right arm or they will miss it altogether.

what is cause and what is effect?

maybe he learned to get "low" or "sit down" as he does on the backswing because it helped, then the right arm bent at impact was a necessary result.

 

anyhow i am just tring to find what is real and what is illusion.

 

display picture is draw. there have lay off.

 

[dap]

I agree Hogan did not lay it off as much in most of his shots,particularly 3/4 iron shots.Perhaps he laid it off more when hitting draws as well.

Parallax also needs to be considered.If the camera is pointed down the target line,laid off swings will not look as laid off.Conversely,if the camera is pointed down the heel line,it will look more laid off.I think this partly explains the confusion regarding whether Hogan laid it off or not.Not all camera angles of Hogan are in a "neutral" position.

The angle of Grant that I posted was pretty fair in my opinion.The example of Hogan however,was pointed a little more than the target line than the one of Grants so if anything Hogan was more laid off than it showed in the pics.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1324003017' post='3946273']
I agree Hogan did not lay it off as much in most of his shots,particularly 3/4 iron shots.Perhaps he laid it off more when hitting draws as well.

Parallax also needs to be considered.If the camera is pointed down the target line,laid off swings will not look as laid off.Conversely,if the camera is pointed down the heel line,it will look more laid off.I think this partly explains the confusion regarding whether Hogan laid it off or not.Not all camera angles of Hogan are in a "neutral" position.

The angle of Grant that I posted was pretty fair in my opinion.The example of Hogan however,was pointed a little more than the target line than the one of Grants so if anything Hogan was more laid off than it showed in the pics.
[/quote]

i respectfully agree. more layoff for draw to make swing path more in to out. lessen or take away gear effect.

[Staffer]

[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1324005654' post='3946491']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1324003017' post='3946273']
I agree Hogan did not lay it off as much in most of his shots,particularly 3/4 iron shots.Perhaps he laid it off more when hitting draws as well.

Parallax also needs to be considered.If the camera is pointed down the target line,laid off swings will not look as laid off.Conversely,if the camera is pointed down the heel line,it will look more laid off.I think this partly explains the confusion regarding whether Hogan laid it off or not.Not all camera angles of Hogan are in a "neutral" position.

The angle of Grant that I posted was pretty fair in my opinion.The example of Hogan however,was pointed a little more than the target line than the one of Grants so if anything Hogan was more laid off than it showed in the pics.
[/quote]

i respectfully agree. more layoff for draw to make swing path more in to out. lessen or take away gear effect.
[/quote]

Now I think we should discuss intent. Did Hogan really change the motion of his hands in transition, on purpose, to switch from fade to draw and back? Does that sound like the way to build perhaps the most consistent swing ever?

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='Staffer' timestamp='1324066799' post='3949207']
[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1324005654' post='3946491']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1324003017' post='3946273']
I agree Hogan did not lay it off as much in most of his shots,particularly 3/4 iron shots.Perhaps he laid it off more when hitting draws as well.

Parallax also needs to be considered.If the camera is pointed down the target line,laid off swings will not look as laid off.Conversely,if the camera is pointed down the heel line,it will look more laid off.I think this partly explains the confusion regarding whether Hogan laid it off or not.Not all camera angles of Hogan are in a "neutral" position.

The angle of Grant that I posted was pretty fair in my opinion.The example of Hogan however,was pointed a little more than the target line than the one of Grants so if anything Hogan was more laid off than it showed in the pics.
[/quote]

i respectfully agree. more layoff for draw to make swing path more in to out. lessen or take away gear effect.
[/quote]

Now I think we should discuss intent. Did Hogan really change the motion of his hands in transition, on purpose, to switch from fade to draw and back? Does that sound like the way to build perhaps the most consistent swing ever?
[/quote]

not hands, lower body.

[svsvincenzo]

 

 

well really Dap, i can't let that pass.

a pic in a laid off position? one pic in relation to nothing.

what is "laid off" to you?

 

 

 

 

 

Now it got relation.

 

That's the move I talk about as opening the triangle. External rotation of the right shoulder bringing the right elbow toward the target line and well under the left. I also call it (as many others) dropping the club behind. Of course it's helped with many other moves in body, like lowering the right elbow and using the lower body correctly, but that move is something we have to learn, because nature tells us to close the triangle (thats only said by experience of few thousand students so far ;))

 

What he learned to prevent hook was simply keep on that muscular action when pivot and PF/UD combination shut the face. That's why we see him keeping the right elbow still in at impact and bended. I think Snead learned the same thing and is even better example at impact than Hogan, but for same reason.

 

Mr. Eightiron, is this fade or draw? How can you tell?

[Staffer]

well really Dap, i can't let that pass.

a pic in a laid off position? one pic in relation to nothing.

what is "laid off" to you?

 

 

 

 

 

Now it got relation.

 

That's the move I talk about as opening the triangle. External rotation of the right shoulder bringing the right elbow toward the target line and well under the left. I also call it (as many others) dropping the club behind. Of course it's helped with many other moves in body, like lowering the right elbow and using the lower body correctly, but that move is something we have to learn, because nature tells us to close the triangle (thats only said by experience of few thousand students so far ;))

 

What he learned to prevent hook was simply keep on that muscular action when pivot and PF/UD combination shut the face. That's why we see him keeping the right elbow still in at impact and bended. I think Snead learned the same thing and is even better example at impact than Hogan, but for same reason.

 

Mr. Eightiron, is this fade or draw? How can you tell?

 

Its a fade.

[svsvincenzo]

well really Dap, i can't let that pass.

a pic in a laid off position? one pic in relation to nothing.

what is "laid off" to you?

 

 

 

 

 

Now it got relation.

 

That's the move I talk about as opening the triangle. External rotation of the right shoulder bringing the right elbow toward the target line and well under the left. I also call it (as many others) dropping the club behind. Of course it's helped with many other moves in body, like lowering the right elbow and using the lower body correctly, but that move is something we have to learn, because nature tells us to close the triangle (thats only said by experience of few thousand students so far ;))

 

What he learned to prevent hook was simply keep on that muscular action when pivot and PF/UD combination shut the face. That's why we see him keeping the right elbow still in at impact and bended. I think Snead learned the same thing and is even better example at impact than Hogan, but for same reason.

 

Mr. Eightiron, is this fade or draw? How can you tell?

 

Its a fade.

 

How can you tell?

[Staffer]

well really Dap, i can't let that pass.

a pic in a laid off position? one pic in relation to nothing.

what is "laid off" to you?

 

 

 

 

 

Now it got relation.

 

That's the move I talk about as opening the triangle. External rotation of the right shoulder bringing the right elbow toward the target line and well under the left. I also call it (as many others) dropping the club behind. Of course it's helped with many other moves in body, like lowering the right elbow and using the lower body correctly, but that move is something we have to learn, because nature tells us to close the triangle (thats only said by experience of few thousand students so far ;))

 

What he learned to prevent hook was simply keep on that muscular action when pivot and PF/UD combination shut the face. That's why we see him keeping the right elbow still in at impact and bended. I think Snead learned the same thing and is even better example at impact than Hogan, but for same reason.

 

Mr. Eightiron, is this fade or draw? How can you tell?

 

Its a fade.

 

How can you tell?

 

From those 2 pics I cant, but I have seen the ball flight =)

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

I would guess that it is a fade based on the way the ball comes off the club. It's moving real fast and disappears quickly, but it looks like it is moving from left to right.

Can't see it in this slow-mo , but I have a regular speed version of it on my PC.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9F6bR9UGEvs[/media]

[dap]

He's over at BM's forum causing trouble now.

He keeps saying he's not selling anything but it seems like he's keeping real busy posting his graphs in every forum available just as 4Dswing is about to be released in America.

It also appears his graphs gives out different data to the ones TPI,K-Vest or Zenolink does.His one shows that good players accelerate their shoulders through impact but the others show a deceleration.We are about to see a "3D" war soon.

I think all this 3D stuff just makes for more paralysis by analysis.You don't need such millimeter accuracy measurement in the golf swing because humans are not capable of millimeter precision.Video and an understanding of parallax is close enough.

[tembolo1284]

I'm all for more information...as long as it helps me in understanding and get the right feeling to do what I want to do.

[drewspin]

FYI - Tapio doesn't use much of that information to communicate his teaching and coaching to his students. It is simply available to him as an instructor.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1324306194' post='3959891']
FYI - Tapio doesn't use much of that information to communicate his teaching and coaching to his students. It is simply available to him as an instructor.
[/quote]

oh cmon

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1324313636' post='3960515']
who will entertain me now?
[/quote]

Do you want entertainment or correct Hogan analysis?

TeeAce doesn't understand that Hogan held the triangle open [b]only[/b] until a late release point and then closed it hard through impact. He didn't try to keep it open.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1324318864' post='3960955']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1324313636' post='3960515']
who will entertain me now?
[/quote]

Do you want entertainment or correct Hogan analysis?

TeeAce doesn't understand that Hogan held the triangle open [b]only[/b] until a late release point and then closed it hard through impact. He didn't try to keep it open.
[/quote]


Hehe, nobody will ever know with certainty if their analysis is correct. Hogan is no longer here so he can't say what's right or not.

But definitely give me entertainment and correct Hogan analysis! Why not have both.

[tembolo1284]

so now that TeeAce is out of here...Dap, 8i, hogan101...where you guys at?

Say something.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1324318864' post='3960955']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1324313636' post='3960515']
who will entertain me now?
[/quote]

Do you want entertainment or correct Hogan analysis?

TeeAce doesn't understand that Hogan held the triangle open [b]only[/b] until a late release point and then closed it hard through impact. He didn't try to keep it open.
[/quote]

late release point? where is that?

right, he didn't try to keep it open. it just opens bec of lower body move from top, looks opening bec right elbow is come down and become very low compared to left elbow, so it look hogan is opening it, and the angles dont change so it look like it opening. but it just automatic bec of lower body move. the lower body move bring hands very quick to front of right leg, with angles not change, specialy the lag.

from here, what is the efficientest way to close the club square to ball? Mr. Lynn Blake is very correct in videos you post.