Steel quality used by custom putter makers like Lamont and Slighter

[Princeton TN]

here is a breakdown done by a lab in japan, that used shavings from a GSS Scotty Cameron and a JSS 303 Steel used by Gold's Factory in a highline putter that Gold's made. It shows you the make up of each of the two and how they are different... since inquiring minds wish to know!!!!

Enjoy!!!

[attachment=1450891:gss vs jss.jpg]

[hebron1427]

what's the unit?

in other words....there's no difference.

[esketores]

Unless you get certified analysis it could be anything.
What is the point of origin of the steel? China? Sweden? Germany? The United States of America?
Uddleholm (Sweden) is one supplier of high end stainless. There was a time when they bissed off the wrong people and were banned from the United States of America.
Many U.S. [s]scumbag[/s] manufacturers who have plastic injection molds made overseas (read China) demand certs. on the mold steel that was used.

[PutterHo]

I love having 3 hours to catch up on 3 months away from this place ........ some things will never change.

[hebron1427]

glad you're back Josh

[RookieBlue7]

I'm guessing if you had all of the boutiques, etc make a putter out of the same type of steel, regardless of its origin, and put zero identifying markings on them and put ear plugs in, no one would be able to tell you who made which putter, as long as they were identical headshapes and no one's milling differed on the face to their favored mill marks.

[pgagolfstuff]

I have owned a GSS Cameron &CO and An SSS Cameron from the tour both built to my specs at 340 gr and 34.5 in long. They both had sight dots and were nice putters with shallow uniform milling. Even had the same grips with the same wraps of tape.. Lol not to knit pick. I rolled them against each other and there was no noticeable difference in feel or sound. The biggest difference was in the finished color of the stainless. The GSS was a little darker in color. I wish I still had them both to show comparative pics. I actually gamed an 009 for a long time. I no longer have a relationship with titleist sooo I'm waiting on my new gamer from Byron Morgan a DH 89 that I'm really excited to get.

[oneaugusta]

[i]It is complete hogwash to say all 303 stainless is the same, that's like saying all diamonds are the same! Good quality American stainless is comparable to German Stainless but 303 Stainless from China is not close to the same quality. The new scotty's are not American stainless but the older ones were. I can feel the difference and it for sure will refinish different as I have refinished about 11 of them. them.[/i]

[Nessism]

[quote name='oneaugusta' timestamp='1358737251' post='6267991']
[i]It is complete hogwash to say all 303 stainless is the same, that's like saying all diamonds are the same! Good quality American stainless is comparable to German Stainless but 303 Stainless from China is not close to the same quality. The new scotty's are not American stainless but the older ones were. I can feel the difference and it for sure will refinish different as I have refinished about 11 of them. them.[/i]
[/quote]

303 is an SAE designation which puts bounds on the constituents within the metal. There is no way in hell anyone could tell where the steel is made, nor observe any physical differences outside a labratory, assuming the steel meets the requirements to be called 303. Maybe Camaron is using a steel with approximate characteristics to 303, but not 303? I have no idea, but strongly doubt anyone could truly feel the difference in the end putter even if they did.

[oneaugusta]

[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1358947561' post='6281899']
[quote name='oneaugusta' timestamp='1358737251' post='6267991']
[i]It is complete hogwash to say all 303 stainless is the same, that's like saying all diamonds are the same! Good quality American stainless is comparable to German Stainless but 303 Stainless from China is not close to the same quality. The new scotty's are not American stainless but the older ones were. I can feel the difference and it for sure will refinish different as I have refinished about 11 of them. them.[/i]
[/quote]

303 is an SAE designation which puts bounds on the constituents within the metal. There is no way in hell anyone could tell where the steel is made, nor observe any physical differences outside a labratory, assuming the steel meets the requirements to be called 303. Maybe Camaron is using a steel with approximate characteristics to 303, but not 303? I have no idea, but strongly doubt anyone could truly feel the difference in the end putter even if they did.
[/quote]
So lets see if I have a grasp on what you and others are saying. All 303 stainless is the same. Scotty Cameron is a liar because he calls his putters made from a single block of 303 stainless on his website. All 303 stainless feels the same, machines the same, and finshes the same.
Lamont at Mannkrafted uses a specific stainless called Rocky Mountain 303, Byron Morgan uses a specific 303 German and American stainless from a vendor as does TP MILLs. So what you are saying is they are wasting there money and should use the cheapest price 303 stainless because there is no difference and its all the same because it has the 303 SAE designation?

[Nessism]

[quote name='oneaugusta' timestamp='1359006001' post='6287231']
[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1358947561' post='6281899']
[quote name='oneaugusta' timestamp='1358737251' post='6267991']
[i]It is complete hogwash to say all 303 stainless is the same, that's like saying all diamonds are the same! Good quality American stainless is comparable to German Stainless but 303 Stainless from China is not close to the same quality. The new scotty's are not American stainless but the older ones were. I can feel the difference and it for sure will refinish different as I have refinished about 11 of them. them.[/i]
[/quote]

303 is an SAE designation which puts bounds on the constituents within the metal. There is no way in hell anyone could tell where the steel is made, nor observe any physical differences outside a labratory, assuming the steel meets the requirements to be called 303. Maybe Camaron is using a steel with approximate characteristics to 303, but not 303? I have no idea, but strongly doubt anyone could truly feel the difference in the end putter even if they did.
[/quote]
So lets see if I have a grasp on what you and others are saying. All 303 stainless is the same. Scotty Cameron is a liar because he calls his putters made from a single block of 303 stainless on his website. All 303 stainless feels the same, machines the same, and finshes the same.
Lamont at Mannkrafted uses a specific stainless called Rocky Mountain 303, Byron Morgan uses a specific 303 German and American stainless from a vendor as does TP MILLs. So what you are saying is they are wasting there money and should use the cheapest price 303 stainless because there is no difference and its all the same because it has the 303 SAE designation?
[/quote]

You are embellishing what I'm saying. I never called anyone a liar, and don't advocate using the cheapest material available.

SAE dictates the constituents within the metal. It can't be 303 if it doesn't meet the spec. Mind you, some crap steel mill may fraudulently claim their material is 303 when it isn't. That's a different matter though. Any steel mill worth their salt will provide a chemical analysis along with their steel shipments so the buyer can verify the material is what they claim. There will be no significant difference between German, American, or Chinese 303 as long as it's legitimately 303.

This said, some people, like me, put value in using American made (or German) material. This falls along the same lines as people that like American made products and are willing to pay more for them. Nothing wrong with this. Just don't be fooled into thinking the end club will perform different than an identical club made in China.

[oneaugusta]

"Maybe Camaron is using a steel with approximate characteristics to 303, but not 303? " What did I misunderstand? these are your exact words! and Scotty's exact words on his website are milled from a single block of 303 stainless.

As a golfer, clubfitter and club-refinisher my personal opinion is some 303 stainless putters do feel better than others and feel translates to performance. If a putter is responsive and balanced in my hands I can feel the ball coming off the face which will give better distance control and more importantly confidence.

[Nessism]

[quote name='oneaugusta' timestamp='1359281517' post='6307159']
"Maybe Camaron is using a steel with approximate characteristics to 303, but not 303? " What did I misunderstand? these are your exact words! and Scotty's exact words on his website are milled from a single block of 303 stainless.

As a golfer, clubfitter and club-refinisher my personal opinion is some 303 stainless putters do feel better than others and feel translates to performance. If a putter is responsive and balanced in my hands I can feel the ball coming off the face which will give better distance control and more importantly confidence.
[/quote]


I was offering a possible answer as to why you think Chinese 303 feels different 303 than made elsewhere. On second thought, this idea is silly so we are back to you being delusional.

The infinitesimal differences between US 303, German 303, and Chinese 303 are noteworthy only in marketing terms. The putter will not feel different, be more responsive, balanced, or anything else when made with steel from any particular country. This of course assumes that these materials are actual SAE 303. Not some unique approximation to 303.

I work in the aerospace industry as a quality and manufacturing engineering manager. We specify lots of parts made from stainless steel, and our purchasing folks source them from all over the world, including China, Germany, Thailand, and of course the US. Our Thailand affiliate had trouble getting US grade materials (as specified on our drawings) and had to special order certain types and pay more compared to what they commonly used. The FAA will take away your license if you use fraudulent materials in production, but they don't care where the materials are made. Chinese, German, US, it doesn't matter as long as the material is what you say it is, and meets the appropriate requirements. Parts going into a commercial airplanes are built to requirements light years beyond a golf club putter. Yet no one cares where the steel comes from, as long as it meets the appropriate specs. See where I'm going with this? The physical properties of the material are specified by the composition. And SAE controls the composition. The controls are tight, so there isn't much variation from batch to batch, or country of origin.

Earlier in this thread you made this claim...

[quote name='oneaugusta' timestamp='1347068984' post='5605033']
That is correct, Byrons is GS or German stainless and it is 303 but feels very different than US 303 or China 303 that has flooded the market. GS is more dense and actually heavier, if you were to make 2 putters the exact dimensions, one with reg. 303 and one with GS the GS would weigh 3 to 5% more. It is not the same.
[/quote]

The following is the composition of 303...


Carbon - 0.15 max
Chromium - 17 - 19
Iron - Balance
Manganese - 2 max
Molybdenum - 0.6 max
Nickel - 8 - 10
Phosphorus - 0.2 max
Silicon - 1 max
Sulphur - 0.15 min

The only significant variation allowable is in Chromium and Nickel. Chromium is 9% lower density than Iron, and Nickel is 13% higher density. Adding 2% more or less of these materials won't create the weight variation you suggest. For these steel's to vary 5%, one of them is not 303.

[oneaugusta]

I can see some are trying to make this personal, it's to bad we can't just agree to disagree and have a civil disussion without name calling.
If I claimed to be in expert in quality I would know that there is variation in everything even the raw elements that make up 303 stainless, "But I did stay at a Holiday Inn express last night"

[esketores]

There is nothing to disagree about when it comes to the inherent attributes of a [u]specific[/u] grade of steel. Facts are facts.
Now how the steel is finished, hardened, annealed, (sic) treated is a whole different story. The grain structure can differ. Was the steel cyrogentically treated? Heat treated? What is the porousity of the steel?. So how the steel is manufactured can affect the basic structure of the metal. Which may or may not equate into a different feel.
But the basic weight will not change.

303 stainless weighs .287 pounds per cubic inch
1018 steel .283 pounds per cubis inch
210 nickel .32 pounds per cubic inch
101 copper .323 pounds per cubic inch.

So a 3-5 percent change in weight is a significant change to the metal. An additive added during the manufacturing process with a higher specific gavity would be required thus making the steel something other than 303.

Personally... if the putter face is metal it is metal. Regardless of the hardness.

Such discussions are just like the audiophile discussions regarding power cords. What you believe is what you believe. Whether it is true or not.

[putter_ho89]

[quote name='pgagolfstuff' timestamp='1358730284' post='6267361']
I have owned a GSS Cameron &CO and An SSS Cameron from the tour both built to my specs at 340 gr and 34.5 in long. They both had sight dots and were nice putters with shallow uniform milling. Even had the same grips with the same wraps of tape.. Lol not to knit pick. I rolled them against each other and there was no noticeable difference in feel or sound. The biggest difference was in the finished color of the stainless. The GSS was a little darker in color. I wish I still had them both to show comparative pics. I actually gamed an 009 for a long time. I no longer have a relationship with titleist sooo I'm waiting on my new gamer from Byron Morgan a DH 89 that I'm really excited to get.
[/quote]

Congrats on your DH89 purchase! Be sure to post the pictures when you get it. Did you go GS, SS, or carbon?