Steel quality used by custom putter makers like Lamont and Slighter

[MmmBaker]

What's the grade of stainless steel that these custom putter makers use? I like the feel of my DASS Bettinardis, which I think is 303SUS? I could be wrong. How do these custom putters feel compared to the higher grade stainles steels like the DASS?

[finalist]

303 is common.

Feel comes more from the head design than the material used unless you ise inserts.

Example: copper is by far the softest material, but if you mill a putter out of solid copper and design it to have a very thin face it will feel more clicky, brittle, higher pitched. The face absorbs impact and translates it to the rest of the head, shaft, grip and hands to create a feel.

Take note of face thickness to get what you want. I'm pretty sure the majority of smaller makers use high grade steels.

[hebron1427]

DASS isn't really a thing. neither is GSS. they're all within the same gradation of stainless, which is 303. DASS and GSS are marketing terms made to help sell putters. there may be something to getting a particular steel grade from a particular supplier or with a particular treating process that makes it more consistent, but that has little to do with how a putter feels. As finalist said, it's pretty much about head geometry and little else (at least when it comes to one-piece milled putters).

[weaver93]

Actually DASS it a process not a product. You can argue the benefit it gives to the manufacturing of putters, but it is a legitimate process.

" Annealing is a heat treatment wherein the microstructure of a material is altered, causing changes in its properties such as strength and hardness. It's a process that produces stable conditions by heating and maintaining it at a suitable temperature, and then cooling it very slowly. It's used to induce softness, relieve internal stresses, refine the structure, and improve cold working properties."

[sergizmo]

[quote name='weaver93' timestamp='1346907986' post='5595009']
Actually DASS it a process not a product. You can argue the benefit it gives to the manufacturing of putters, but it is a legitimate process.

" Annealing is a heat treatment wherein the microstructure of a material is altered, causing changes in its properties such as strength and hardness. It's a process that produces stable conditions by heating and maintaining it at a suitable temperature, and then cooling it very slowly. It's used to induce softness, relieve internal stresses, refine the structure, and improve cold working properties."
[/quote]

All 303 stainless comes as annealed. GSS and DASS is marketing and nothing more.

The most common stainless grade is 303 due to relative ease of machining compared to other stainless alloys. For carbon steels it is 1020 or 12L14(free machining).

For an application such as putters, these steel are just fine. Putters do not require high tensile or shear strengths, extreme heat or corrosion resistance, super high hardness, etc...

[weaver93]

Don't most forgings get annealed after the process? Bettinardi putters I saw being made were from forgings.

[Llortamaisey]

Wait, so what you guys are saying is that GSS isn't from Germany?

Well if that isn't the old banana in the tail pipe!

[hebron1427]

[quote name='Llortamaisey' timestamp='1346958948' post='5597609']
Wait, so what you guys are saying is that GSS isn't from Germany?

Well if that isn't the old banana in the tail pipe!
[/quote]

it probably is from germany. what we're saying is that it don't mean squat that it came from germany because it's the same stuff you'd get from a US supplier.

[finalist]

[quote name='weaver93' timestamp='1346958461' post='5597577']
Don't most forgings get annealed after the process? Bettinardi putters I saw being made were from forgings.
[/quote]

I guess you have three ways to make a putter... Casting, milled from a block of metal or milled from a forged blank. Casting is the cheapest. Then forged blanks, and finally milling from a solid block is the most expensive. The reason a solid block costs more is there is more material waste cut away. Also, the metal blocks used to mill putters is basically forged into the block shape.

[pgagolfstuff]

303 Stainless is the grade of stainless steel. The steel is forged in to blocks or Billet and the putters are milled out of those blocks. I know Tom Slighter and have a couple of custom putters made by him and he makes an outstanding product. As does bettinardi..... Scotty Cameron just was in the right place at the right time to invent a better mouse trap so to speak. GSS is a term that he actually trademarked and is under legal protection which is why you dont see other putter Manufacturers using the term GSS or SSS on any of their products. If you look for the glossary of terms on the cameron website it shows these terms and that they are trademarked.

Face thickness, balance and sound all contribute to what we preceive as feel. Take a couple putters out and put earplugs in and roll them with out hearing the sound the precieved feel changes..... Its spooky.

[Undaunted]

[quote name='pgagolfstuff' timestamp='1346970026' post='5598499']
303 Stainless is the grade of stainless steel. The steel is forged in to blocks or Billet and the putters are milled out of those blocks. I know Tom Slighter and have a couple of custom putters made by him and he makes an outstanding product. As does bettinardi..... Scotty Cameron just was in the right place at the right time to invent a better mouse trap so to speak. GSS is a term that he actually trademarked and is under legal protection which is why you dont see other putter Manufacturers using the term GSS or SSS on any of their products. If you look for the glossary of terms on the cameron website it shows these terms and that they are trademarked.

Face thickness, balance and sound all contribute to what we preceive as feel. Take a couple putters out and put earplugs in and roll them with out hearing the sound the precieved feel changes..... Its spooky.
[/quote]

That's interesting since Byron uses GSS at whim on his products, as do some other makers. I doubt he truly has it trademarked.

[hebron1427]

[quote name='Undaunted' timestamp='1346970807' post='5598559']
[quote name='pgagolfstuff' timestamp='1346970026' post='5598499']
303 Stainless is the grade of stainless steel. The steel is forged in to blocks or Billet and the putters are milled out of those blocks. I know Tom Slighter and have a couple of custom putters made by him and he makes an outstanding product. As does bettinardi..... Scotty Cameron just was in the right place at the right time to invent a better mouse trap so to speak. GSS is a term that he actually trademarked and is under legal protection which is why you dont see other putter Manufacturers using the term GSS or SSS on any of their products. If you look for the glossary of terms on the cameron website it shows these terms and that they are trademarked.

Face thickness, balance and sound all contribute to what we preceive as feel. Take a couple putters out and put earplugs in and roll them with out hearing the sound the precieved feel changes..... Its spooky.
[/quote]

That's interesting since Byron uses GSS at whim on his products, as do some other makers. I doubt he truly has it trademarked.
[/quote]

yah...no way that's trademarked. that's a rumor.

[hebron1427]

[quote name='hebron1427' timestamp='1346977657' post='5599087']
[quote name='Undaunted' timestamp='1346970807' post='5598559']
[quote name='pgagolfstuff' timestamp='1346970026' post='5598499']
303 Stainless is the grade of stainless steel. The steel is forged in to blocks or Billet and the putters are milled out of those blocks. I know Tom Slighter and have a couple of custom putters made by him and he makes an outstanding product. As does bettinardi..... Scotty Cameron just was in the right place at the right time to invent a better mouse trap so to speak. GSS is a term that he actually trademarked and is under legal protection which is why you dont see other putter Manufacturers using the term GSS or SSS on any of their products. If you look for the glossary of terms on the cameron website it shows these terms and that they are trademarked.

Face thickness, balance and sound all contribute to what we preceive as feel. Take a couple putters out and put earplugs in and roll them with out hearing the sound the precieved feel changes..... Its spooky.
[/quote]

That's interesting since Byron uses GSS at whim on his products, as do some other makers. I doubt he truly has it trademarked.
[/quote]

yah...no way that's trademarked. that's a rumor.
[/quote]

actually....lol....

[url="http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4009:7pi6d8.5.49"]http://tess2.uspto.g...009:7pi6d8.5.49[/url]

i stand corrected (by myself).

and, yes, that would mean byron is infringing the trademark by using GSS.

[pgagolfstuff]

It's all good I speak from experience in dealing with acushnets legal office. GSS, SSS, J.A.T, circle t, 009, and pretty much everything else they come out with goes through the trademark process.. He won't even bring the putters out to the tour with out putting a trademark on the name of potential future putters off the rack and tour models...

[hebron1427]

[quote name='pgagolfstuff' timestamp='1346980461' post='5599333']
It's all good I speak from experience in dealing with acushnets legal office. GSS, SSS, J.A.T, circle t, 009, and pretty much everything else they come out with goes through the trademark process.. He won't even bring the putters out to the tour with out putting a trademark on the name of potential future putters off the rack and tour models...
[/quote]

well, this is of course good advice, but i'm shocked they were able to register something this generic. as an IP attorney...it seems unlikely because it is both descriptive and generic, but whatever.

[njlam]

Doesn't Byron also regularly infringe on the Captain Morgan trademark?

[hebron1427]

[quote name='njlam' timestamp='1346981208' post='5599415']
Doesn't Byron also regularly infringe on the Captain Morgan trademark?
[/quote]

It's not infringing unless the registration covers the goods. Basically, if you're buying a putter you're not thinking about rum, so there's no issue with consumer confusion. Also, the rum maker doesn't sell putters so they can't say a putter maker stole their mark.

[njlam]

[quote name='hebron1427' timestamp='1346987790' post='5600033']
[quote name='njlam' timestamp='1346981208' post='5599415']
Doesn't Byron also regularly infringe on the Captain Morgan trademark?
[/quote]

It's not infringing unless the registration covers the goods. Basically, if you're buying a putter you're not thinking about rum, so there's no issue with consumer confusion. Also, the rum maker doesn't sell putters so they can't say a putter maker stole their mark.
[/quote]

Is that an opinion or a legal fact?

It sounds like an opinion....

[hoganapex]

Was GSS an accident for SC? Being in the putter business, I have had it told to me the shop doing SC stainless putters at the time was having supply issues with it's US supplier for 303 and went to a german supplier for 303 and shazam - you have GSS.

SC is quite active on trademarks and patents. We had a mini tour player ask us to stamp his last nameletter in a cirlce on a putter we made for him. The letter didn't touch the circle and it looked nothing like a "circle T". But he happened to be first alternate at a US open and apparently the SC tour rep saw his putter and asked to see it, took pictures, and sent them to Corporate to see if maybe they could slap someone's hand. They player was quite upset about the situation. The rep came back after a while to tell him they said it was "not a problem".

I believe the oval site dot is a Mills trademark, but it was similarly used on a SC line a few years ago. Trademarks and Patents don't mean too much unless you have the weight to throw around defending (or attacking) them.

[finalist]

Byron's relative (great great grandfather or something) was Captain Morgan the pirate! True story!

Also, Byron and Scotty being old pals, business partners, wives were friends, etc could do a lot of damage. Byron has patents on several putter features that Scotty uses. There's no time and it's not worth the battle to go against each other in court... Old friends. ...just know Byron was the teacher!!

[hebron1427]

[quote name='njlam' timestamp='1346988244' post='5600093']
[quote name='hebron1427' timestamp='1346987790' post='5600033']

It's not infringing unless the registration covers the goods. Basically, if you're buying a putter you're not thinking about rum, so there's no issue with consumer confusion. Also, the rum maker doesn't sell putters so they can't say a putter maker stole their mark.
[/quote]

Is that an opinion or a legal fact?

It sounds like an opinion....
[/quote]
there's no such thing as "legal fact." however, federal trademark registrations cover a class of goods and a goods description. so, when you get a trademark, first you must either be actively using the mark or swear that you intend to use it soon. you can't just go trademark something that you have no intent ever to use for goods. second, you have to provide a description of goods that you intend the TM to cover and put it in a classification of goods that includes similar things. Although there can be infringement across classes and goods descriptions, the question is whether a consumer would be confused as to the source of the goods. it's unlikely that a consumer would think that a putter came from a company that makes spirits, so there is likely no infringement.

[quote name='hoganapex' timestamp='1346989455' post='5600219']
Was GSS an accident for SC? Being in the putter business, I have had it told to me the shop doing SC stainless putters at the time was having supply issues with it's US supplier for 303 and went to a german supplier for 303 and shazam - you have GSS.

SC is quite active on trademarks and patents. We had a mini tour player ask us to stamp his last nameletter in a cirlce on a putter we made for him. The letter didn't touch the circle and it looked nothing like a "circle T". But he happened to be first alternate at a US open and apparently the SC tour rep saw his putter and asked to see it, took pictures, and sent them to Corporate to see if maybe they could slap someone's hand. They player was quite upset about the situation. The rep came back after a while to tell him they said it was "not a problem".

I believe the oval site dot is a Mills trademark, but it was similarly used on a SC line a few years ago. Trademarks and Patents don't mean too much unless you have the weight to throw around defending (or attacking) them.
[/quote]

fairly true. the question is always "how much will it cost me and what is my potential gain?" you don't just get the right to have everyone bow down before your patent or TM. if it's not causing you real harm, there is no need for a legal fight. in other words, even though "the law" says something about it, that doesn't mean it is applied in all cases no matter what. of course, this makes sense--how would you like it if every time you were speeding you automatically got a ticket? the law is the law, but there has to be some flexibility. one thing that registration of trademarks and patent applications does do, however, is prevent others from saying they invented your invention or were using your trademark first. particularly with trademarks, that is valuable. in patents, you can still infringe someone else's patent, but at least you can say you own some part of the claimed invention, and that can give you some room to negotiate with the patent holder.

[nfinch10]

[quote name='Undaunted' timestamp='1346970807' post='5598559']
[quote name='pgagolfstuff' timestamp='1346970026' post='5598499']
303 Stainless is the grade of stainless steel. The steel is forged in to blocks or Billet and the putters are milled out of those blocks. I know Tom Slighter and have a couple of custom putters made by him and he makes an outstanding product. As does bettinardi..... Scotty Cameron just was in the right place at the right time to invent a better mouse trap so to speak. GSS is a term that he actually trademarked and is under legal protection which is why you dont see other putter Manufacturers using the term GSS or SSS on any of their products. If you look for the glossary of terms on the cameron website it shows these terms and that they are trademarked.

Face thickness, balance and sound all contribute to what we preceive as feel. Take a couple putters out and put earplugs in and roll them with out hearing the sound the precieved feel changes..... Its spooky.
[/quote]

That's interesting since Byron uses GSS at whim on his products, as do some other makers. I doubt he truly has it trademarked.
[/quote]

I'm pretty sure Byron calls his GS, not GSS, and that may be where he gets away with it.

[golfluvzme]

Biggest truth in this thread is "Byron was the teacher."
Thanks for making that point, Finalist. Many people in the putter world have no idea of that connection.
LaMont in AZ

PS, just for the record, the steel and stainless I use is the best I can buy and by no means second rate compared to anyone's product. No reason to skimp on one of the key ingredients of the putter, when the end results will show what you have done.

[oneaugusta]

[quote name='nfinch10' timestamp='1347025071' post='5601359']
[quote name='Undaunted' timestamp='1346970807' post='5598559']
[quote name='pgagolfstuff' timestamp='1346970026' post='5598499']
303 Stainless is the grade of stainless steel. The steel is forged in to blocks or Billet and the putters are milled out of those blocks. I know Tom Slighter and have a couple of custom putters made by him and he makes an outstanding product. As does bettinardi..... Scotty Cameron just was in the right place at the right time to invent a better mouse trap so to speak. GSS is a term that he actually trademarked and is under legal protection which is why you dont see other putter Manufacturers using the term GSS or SSS on any of their products. If you look for the glossary of terms on the cameron website it shows these terms and that they are trademarked.

Face thickness, balance and sound all contribute to what we preceive as feel. Take a couple putters out and put earplugs in and roll them with out hearing the sound the precieved feel changes..... Its spooky.
[/quote]

That's interesting since Byron uses GSS at whim on his products, as do some other makers. I doubt he truly has it trademarked.
[/quote]

I'm pretty sure Byron calls his GS, not GSS, and that may be where he gets away with it.
[/quote]

That is correct, Byrons is GS or German stainless and it is 303 but feels very different than US 303 or China 303 that has flooded the market. GS is more dense and actually heavier, if you were to make 2 putters the exact dimensions, one with reg. 303 and one with GS the GS would weigh 3 to 5% more. It is not the same.

I should mention that Lamont says his Rocky Mountain 303 feels as good as Scotty's GSS or Byron's GS putters. I guess I neeed to have him make a putter to find out, but I'm guessing he's spot on.

[finalist]

German steel is heavier? Never heard that one before. Imo it's from Germany.

[oneaugusta]

[quote name='finalist' timestamp='1347155614' post='5609651']
German steel is heavier? Never heard that one before. Imo it's from Germany.
[/quote]
This info came straight from someone who has worked with steel for a living for a very long time and is now employed at Nucor steel near where I live. I don't believe he is refering to all German steel because all factory's have their own formula for 303 and slight variations. The particulat factory he was referrring to seems to be one of the oldest and best quality. What he said was "if you take a block let's say 8 inch ny 8 inch and weigh it and then take a block the exact size from average American 303 or China 303 the German 303 can weigh 3 to 5% more".

[finalist]

[quote name='oneaugusta' timestamp='1347194319' post='5610923']
[quote name='finalist' timestamp='1347155614' post='5609651']
German steel is heavier? Never heard that one before. Imo it's from Germany.
[/quote]
This info came straight from someone who has worked with steel for a living for a very long time and is now employed at Nucor steel near where I live. I don't believe he is refering to all German steel because all factory's have their own formula for 303 and slight variations. The particulat factory he was referrring to seems to be one of the oldest and best quality. What he said was "if you take a block let's say 8 inch ny 8 inch and weigh it and then take a block the exact size from average American 303 or China 303 the German 303 can weigh 3 to 5% more".
[/quote]



Personally the coolest thing about the German steel in my putters is the German mill that created the German steel is over 400 years old! That alone blows me away!

[Undaunted]

[quote]I'm pretty sure Byron calls his GS, not GSS, and that may be where he gets away with it.
[/quote]

He generally stamps 303GS when using German Steel, however he tends to do a mix and uses GSS for larger stamps. There's many and more pictures with GSS stamped on his putters, just have to keep an eye open.

[Nessism]

[quote name='oneaugusta' timestamp='1347194319' post='5610923']
[quote name='finalist' timestamp='1347155614' post='5609651']
German steel is heavier? Never heard that one before. Imo it's from Germany.
[/quote]
This info came straight from someone who has worked with steel for a living for a very long time and is now employed at Nucor steel near where I live. I don't believe he is refering to all German steel because all factory's have their own formula for 303 and slight variations. The particulat factory he was referrring to seems to be one of the oldest and best quality. What he said was "if you take a block let's say 8 inch ny 8 inch and weigh it and then take a block the exact size from average American 303 or China 303 the German 303 can weigh 3 to 5% more".
[/quote]

That German steel most likely doesn't meet the requirements for being 303, which is an SAE designation.

[CWB]

[b] ASTM A484 / A484M - 11[/b]

I'm sure this is just 1 of the Stainless steel examples

It's a minimum requirement and maybe some testing in some samples
http://www.astm.org/Standards/A484.htm

I know a little more about pipe and ASTM 53 astm 795. These are just minimums, quality can vary from manufactures. Its up to Wholesales & suppliers to treat customers (metal buyers) with a business relationship.
I'm sure putter makers are buying good stuff and KNOW what they have, just ask them.