Hogan's arms/hands and his shirt buttons

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1361904504' post='6507249']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1361903247' post='6507105']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1361902566' post='6507031']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1361898518' post='6506579']
One thing that has my attention is how shallow he is. I'm noticing the more shallow I get, the more open my face is and it further prevents me from hitting a hook. Which is a good thing!

So what squares the clubface? Hogan was as shallow as it got. Did he square it with his body, his hands, or both?
[/quote]

Pivot only - why would he bend his irons open 6 degs and then use any independent hand/wrist action to help close the face, when he could just not bend them or bend less and use no hands?
[/quote]

This is where the conversation usually starts to go round and round and round. The standard retort whould be "but he said he wished he had three right hands!!! If his hands arent' active then what the hell man?? and what about supination dude!!!??"
[/quote]

I didn't mean he didn't make any arm effort, I meant to say that he didn't use hand manipulation to square the face in response to tembo's question. I believe Hogan when he writes and demos making a throwing motion with his right arm! But that's to add shaft speed through impact, not to manipulate the club face with wrist supination, which is rolling and not the raising of the wrist bone, which I think you are calling supination.
[/quote]

ya I don't mean for face manipulation. But just for keeping the arm and body swings in sync.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1361904623' post='6507263']

ya I don't mean for face manipulation. But just for keeping the arm and body swings in sync.
[/quote]

Yes - I just don't see how his arms could get through impact and up that high in the follow through, in view of that monster pivot, without any arm effort.

[dairic]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1361904504' post='6507249']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1361903247' post='6507105']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1361902566' post='6507031']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1361898518' post='6506579']
One thing that has my attention is how shallow he is. I'm noticing the more shallow I get, the more open my face is and it further prevents me from hitting a hook. Which is a good thing!

So what squares the clubface? Hogan was as shallow as it got. Did he square it with his body, his hands, or both?
[/quote]

Pivot only - why would he bend his irons open 6 degs and then use any independent hand/wrist action to help close the face, when he could just not bend them or bend less and use no hands?
[/quote]

This is where the conversation usually starts to go round and round and round. The standard retort whould be "but he said he wished he had three right hands!!! If his hands arent' active then what the hell man?? and what about supination dude!!!??"
[/quote]

I didn't mean he didn't make any arm effort, I meant to say that he didn't use hand manipulation to square the face in response to tembo's question. I believe Hogan when he writes and demos making a throwing motion with his right arm! But that's to add shaft speed through impact, not to manipulate the club face with wrist supination, which is rolling and not the raising of the wrist bone, which I think you are calling supination.
[/quote]

What I mean by supination is actually a rolling action as shown in 5 lessons, but I'm pretty sure that what Mr Hogan meant by "supination" is the raising of the wrist bone. symantics symantics. Raising of the wrist bone closes the face some, so it's not a hook proofing move either. I actually haven't made up my mind as to what he actually does or is trying to do.

[tembolo1284]

dammit...so we are back to square one?

nooooooooooo!

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1361905953' post='6507409']

Raising of the wrist bone closes the face some, so it's not a hook proofing move either.
[/quote]

Oh yes it is! Hold a club straight out in front of you. Now arch the left wrist without moving your arm - see the club head move to the right - that lags the club head, delaying the club face squaring.

[tylerdurden]

he's just letting the club/physics tumble it. Under plane=auto closure. Tumble then stablizes face. So he could pound it with right arm and it didn't matter.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1361907526' post='6507601']
he's just letting the club/physics tumble it. Under plane=auto closure. Tumble then stablizes face. So he could pound it with right arm and it didn't matter.
[/quote]

what you mean by tumble it?

[dairic]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1361906890' post='6507503']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1361905953' post='6507409']

Raising of the wrist bone closes the face some, so it's not a hook proofing move either.
[/quote]

Oh yes it is! Hold a club straight out in front of you. Now arch the left wrist without moving your arm - see the club head move to the right - that lags the club head, delaying the club face squaring.
[/quote]

Was just at the range a sec ago and really focus on arching the leading hand while trying to hook it off the planet. Still could hook it but not as much as if I only focused on supination. It also makes the pivot work harder. I never though about the bowing and lag relationship before but I still see the face closing when doing it like you describe. Mind not completely blown yet but close.

[tembolo1284]

tumble!

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1361909385' post='6507827']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1361906890' post='6507503']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1361905953' post='6507409']

Raising of the wrist bone closes the face some, so it's not a hook proofing move either.
[/quote]

Oh yes it is! Hold a club straight out in front of you. Now arch the left wrist without moving your arm - see the club head move to the right - that lags the club head, delaying the club face squaring.
[/quote]

Was just at the range a sec ago and really focus on arching the leading hand while trying to hook it off the planet. Still could hook it but not as much as if I only focused on supination. It also makes the pivot work harder. I never though about the bowing and lag relationship before but I still see the face closing when doing it like you describe. Mind not completely blown yet but close.
[/quote]

When you really get it, your mind will be completely blown!

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1361908958' post='6507775']
[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1361907526' post='6507601']
he's just letting the club/physics tumble it. Under plane=auto closure. Tumble then stablizes face. So he could pound it with right arm and it didn't matter.
[/quote]

what you mean by tumble it?
[/quote]

nothing to see here, nothing to see here, move along

[dairic]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1361909588' post='6507859']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1361909385' post='6507827']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1361906890' post='6507503']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1361905953' post='6507409']

Raising of the wrist bone closes the face some, so it's not a hook proofing move either.
[/quote]

Oh yes it is! Hold a club straight out in front of you. Now arch the left wrist without moving your arm - see the club head move to the right - that lags the club head, delaying the club face squaring.
[/quote]

Was just at the range a sec ago and really focus on arching the leading hand while trying to hook it off the planet. Still could hook it but not as much as if I only focused on supination. It also makes the pivot work harder. I never though about the bowing and lag relationship before but I still see the face closing when doing it like you describe. Mind not completely blown yet but close.
[/quote]

When you really get it, your mind will be completely blown!
[/quote]

so basically the move is a reverse motorcycle throddle action. Am I right? That's what it felt like anyway. In that sense it feels handsy because it takes effort.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1361909698' post='6507877']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1361908958' post='6507775']
[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1361907526' post='6507601']
he's just letting the club/physics tumble it. Under plane=auto closure. Tumble then stablizes face. So he could pound it with right arm and it didn't matter.
[/quote]

what you mean by tumble it?
[/quote]

nothing to see here, nothing to see here, move along
[/quote]

Just a term that TD picked up from another forum! LOL

[tembolo1284]

tyler!

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1361910158' post='6507935']

so basically the move is a reverse motorcycle throddle action. Am I right? That's what it felt like anyway. In that sense it feels handsy because it takes effort.
[/quote]

If you do it on the takeaway by bending the right wrist to the max and holding it from the top to release, then no additional hand action is needed. If you do it somewhere from the top from a flat or cupped position with a left wrist action like Hogan, I suppose it might feel like that.

[dairic]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1361911194' post='6508051']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1361910158' post='6507935']

so basically the move is a reverse motorcycle throddle action. Am I right? That's what it felt like anyway. In that sense it feels handsy because it takes effort.
[/quote]

If you do it on the takeaway by bending the right wrist to the max and holding it from the top to release, then no additional hand action is needed. If you do it somewhere from the top from a flat or cupped position with a left wrist action like Hogan, I suppose it might feel like that.
[/quote]

Sweetness. Thanks man.

[tembolo1284]

what's a reverse motorcycle throttle action?

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1361910239' post='6507947']
[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1361909698' post='6507877']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1361908958' post='6507775']
[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1361907526' post='6507601']
he's just letting the club/physics tumble it. Under plane=auto closure. Tumble then stablizes face. So he could pound it with right arm and it didn't matter.
[/quote]

what you mean by tumble it?
[/quote]

nothing to see here, nothing to see here, move along
[/quote]

Just a term that TD picked up from another forum! LOL
[/quote]

lol and a term I am highly interested in and do not quite understand. But I intend to find out

[dairic]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1361911507' post='6508083']
what's a reverse motorcycle throttle action?
[/quote]

With you leading hand throttle it like on a motorcycle but it the other direction. Maybe the analogy works better for me because I'm a lefty so my leading hand is my motorbike throttle hand.

Ricky fowler should in theory be the master at this since he's an accomplished dirt bike competitor.

[tembolo1284]

Lol...jesus dairic...i'm confused.

Let's keep it more porno so I can understand it.

[tembolo1284]

Tumbling. Strange Tyler strange.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1361911506' post='6508081']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1361911194' post='6508051']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1361910158' post='6507935']

so basically the move is a reverse motorcycle throddle action. Am I right? That's what it felt like anyway. In that sense it feels handsy because it takes effort.
[/quote]

If you do it on the takeaway by bending the right wrist to the max and holding it from the top to release, then no additional hand action is needed. If you do it somewhere from the top from a flat or cupped position with a left wrist action like Hogan, I suppose it might feel like that.
[/quote]

Sweetness. Thanks man.
[/quote]

I will post a video as soon as I can find it, which will bring home the importance and how it can take your ball striking to a whole new level. Give me a day or two, because I've been looking for it for a few days, and I know it's somewhere on the TGM forum and also on Youtube.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1361911524' post='6508087']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1361910239' post='6507947']

Just a term that TD picked up from another forum! LOL
[/quote]

lol and a term I am highly interested in and do not quite understand. But I intend to find out
[/quote]

Just an over the top move to get the shaft on the correct plane after sucking it too far inside going back. Really just a bs term coined to make it sound like an original idea! LOL

[dairic]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1361912349' post='6508201']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1361911506' post='6508081']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1361911194' post='6508051']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1361910158' post='6507935']

so basically the move is a reverse motorcycle throddle action. Am I right? That's what it felt like anyway. In that sense it feels handsy because it takes effort.
[/quote]

If you do it on the takeaway by bending the right wrist to the max and holding it from the top to release, then no additional hand action is needed. If you do it somewhere from the top from a flat or cupped position with a left wrist action like Hogan, I suppose it might feel like that.
[/quote]

Sweetness. Thanks man.
[/quote]

I will post a video as soon as I can find it, which will bring home the importance and how it can take your ball striking to a whole new level. Give me a day or two, because I've been looking for it for a few days, and I know it's somewhere on the TGM forum and also on Youtube.
[/quote]

Much appreciated and looking forward to seeing it! I figured there must be some TGM magic in this.

[dairic]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1361912349' post='6508201']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1361911506' post='6508081']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1361911194' post='6508051']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1361910158' post='6507935']

so basically the move is a reverse motorcycle throddle action. Am I right? That's what it felt like anyway. In that sense it feels handsy because it takes effort.
[/quote]

If you do it on the takeaway by bending the right wrist to the max and holding it from the top to release, then no additional hand action is needed. If you do it somewhere from the top from a flat or cupped position with a left wrist action like Hogan, I suppose it might feel like that.
[/quote]

Sweetness. Thanks man.
[/quote]

I will post a video as soon as I can find it, which will bring home the importance and how it can take your ball striking to a whole new level. Give me a day or two, because I've been looking for it for a few days, and I know it's somewhere on the TGM forum and also on Youtube.
[/quote]

Much appreciated and looking forward to seeing it! I figured there must be some TGM magic in this.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1361912682' post='6508239']
[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1361911524' post='6508087']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1361910239' post='6507947']
Just a term that TD picked up from another forum! LOL
[/quote]

lol and a term I am highly interested in and do not quite understand. But I intend to find out
[/quote]

Just an over the top move to get the shaft on the correct plane after sucking it too far inside going back. Really just a bs term coined to make it sound like an original idea! LOL
[/quote]

I never thought hogan was over the top. Blasphemy!

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1361912938' post='6508269']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1361912682' post='6508239']
[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1361911524' post='6508087']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1361910239' post='6507947']
Just a term that TD picked up from another forum! LOL
[/quote]

lol and a term I am highly interested in and do not quite understand. But I intend to find out
[/quote]

Just an over the top move to get the shaft on the correct plane after sucking it too far inside going back. Really just a bs term coined to make it sound like an original idea! LOL
[/quote]

I never thought hogan was over the top. Blasphemy!
[/quote]

You thought right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp0lGcVxidA

[Jim Waldron]

Left wrist "bowing" is the preferred term by most instructors, and is in the horizontal dimension. "Arching" is in the vertical dimension, ie base of thumb wrist area moving skyward. Some bsic geometry: bowing the left wrist opens the face in relation to the target line - it does NOT close the face as so many golfers and teachers believe. The opposite move of the left wrist or "flipping" closes the face relative to target line. Bowing also de-lofts the clubface and flipping adds loft,ie relative to the ground level.

A "pure" bowed left wrist at the Top with a full and free release however - will result in a closed clubface at impact, especially with anyting stronger than neutral left hand position, due to momentum causing the forearms to roll over a lot. C Force wants to move all the components in line with each other during Release and so a bowed left wrist moves towards Flat and the forearms roll counter-clockwise from momentum. One can resist that from occuring with tighter grip pressure.

One can have a "fake" bowed left wrist at the Top though, which will result in a clubface closed to the Target line both at the Top and absent any compensatory moves, at impact as well. "Fake" bowing is solely due to rolling the face shut during takeaway or second half of backswingk, rolling with forearms. The two things are vastly different animals. Many TV commentators go on and on about D Justin's "shut-face" at the Top, and marvel at how he seldom hits a nasty, low, snap hook with that unorthodox position at the Top. DJ is not "shut" - at least not on the swings I have analyzed - but is "pure" bowed, open to the target line with the face. He has some room to release it a bit and sitll not hook it. In fact, he would hit a lot pushes with that left wrist position if his shoulder girdle was less open at impact. Usually he holds on a bit, and lets it roll a bit, and lets some of the bowing angle release a little back toward Flat, by the time he hits the ball. It is a very effective way to strike a golf ball solidly, with a fair amount of shaft lean, ie a power move.

[dairic]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1361929412' post='6510263']
Left wrist "bowing" is the preferred term by most instructors, and is in the horizontal dimension. "Arching" is in the vertical dimension, ie base of thumb wrist area moving skyward. Some bsic geometry: bowing the left wrist opens the face in relation to the target line - it does NOT close the face as so many golfers and teachers believe. The opposite move of the left wrist or "flipping" closes the face relative to target line. Bowing also de-lofts the clubface and flipping adds loft,ie relative to the ground level.

A "pure" bowed left wrist at the Top with a full and free release however - will result in a closed clubface at impact, especially with anyting stronger than neutral left hand position, due to momentum causing the forearms to roll over a lot. C Force wants to move all the components in line with each other during Release and so a bowed left wrist moves towards Flat and the forearms roll counter-clockwise from momentum. One can resist that from occuring with tighter grip pressure.

One can have a "fake" bowed left wrist at the Top though, which will result in a clubface closed to the Target line both at the Top and absent any compensatory moves, at impact as well. "Fake" bowing is solely due to rolling the face shut during takeaway or second half of backswingk, rolling with forearms. The two things are vastly different animals. Many TV commentators go on and on about D Justin's "shut-face" at the Top, and marvel at how he seldom hits a nasty, low, snap hook with that unorthodox position at the Top. DJ is not "shut" - at least not on the swings I have analyzed - but is "pure" bowed, open to the target line with the face. He has some room to release it a bit and sitll not hook it. In fact, he would hit a lot pushes with that left wrist position if his shoulder girdle was less open at impact. Usually he holds on a bit, and lets it roll a bit, and lets some of the bowing angle release a little back toward Flat, by the time he hits the ball. It is a very effective way to strike a golf ball solidly, with a fair amount of shaft lean, ie a power move.
[/quote]

Jim, I'm a little bit confused by this. Are you saying that bowing the wrist with or without UD opens the face?

Living room experiment:
1) leading arm and shaft at a 90 degree angle. Bowing the wrist does nothing but close the face.
2) leading arm and shaft inline because of added UD. Bowing the wrist moves the shaft away from the target (I think this is what MJ meant by added lag) and face closes.

What am I doing wrong here?

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1361929412' post='6510263']
Left wrist "bowing" is the preferred term by most instructors, and is in the horizontal dimension. "Arching" is in the vertical dimension, ie base of thumb wrist area moving skyward. Some bsic geometry: bowing the left wrist opens the face in relation to the target line - it does NOT close the face as so many golfers and teachers believe. The opposite move of the left wrist or "flipping" closes the face relative to target line. Bowing also de-lofts the clubface and flipping adds loft,ie relative to the ground level.

A "pure" bowed left wrist at the Top with a full and free release however - will result in a closed clubface at impact, especially with anyting stronger than neutral left hand position, due to momentum causing the forearms to roll over a lot. C Force wants to move all the components in line with each other during Release and so a bowed left wrist moves towards Flat and the forearms roll counter-clockwise from momentum. One can resist that from occuring with tighter grip pressure.

One can have a "fake" bowed left wrist at the Top though, which will result in a clubface closed to the Target line both at the Top and absent any compensatory moves, at impact as well. "Fake" bowing is solely due to rolling the face shut during takeaway or second half of backswingk, rolling with forearms. The two things are vastly different animals. Many TV commentators go on and on about D Justin's "shut-face" at the Top, and marvel at how he seldom hits a nasty, low, snap hook with that unorthodox position at the Top. DJ is not "shut" - at least not on the swings I have analyzed - but is "pure" bowed, open to the target line with the face. He has some room to release it a bit and sitll not hook it. In fact, he would hit a lot pushes with that left wrist position if his shoulder girdle was less open at impact. Usually he holds on a bit, and lets it roll a bit, and lets some of the bowing angle release a little back toward Flat, by the time he hits the ball. It is a very effective way to strike a golf ball solidly, with a fair amount of shaft lean, ie a power move.
[/quote]

Jim,

In TGM, arching is the same as bowing or raising the wrist bone. What you describe as arching is uncocking in TGM.

Also, TGM solves the problem of losing the arch in the left wrist through impact by freezing the right wrist bend established at impact fix.