Hogan's arms/hands and his shirt buttons

[Jim Waldron]

Teee - Did you do the test as I asked you to do? From Address, not P6 like in your video, too easy to lose where the Target Line is. Come on Tee, I challenge you to do the test and then report back your results. This is one of those things that is NOT a matter of opinion. I could take any one of the seven billion humans on this planet (well the ones with functional hands and wrists), show him how to grip a golf club in a neutral to slightly strong position the way 99.9% of good players hold it, and set them at Address with a square face to a line on the ground, NOT allow them to rotate their forearms, or move any other body part, but simply do a bowing or pure PF of the left wrist, with NO wrist c0cking, and everyone in the room including the person holding the golf club, would see the ENTIRE CLUBHED fan open to the inside of the target line, with a face pointing out to "right field". I am an expert in Illusions in the golf swing, and there is no illusion here.

Saying that Brian and I are "doing it wrong" does not cut it. Now I just did your method as shown in your video, and duplicated your results, and I explained it as you not letting the clubhead fan open away from the target line. So we are very much NOT talking about the exact same thing. But I also can twist the face into an open position with your method, it ain't easy, but it is possible to do.

The point is pure PF does indeed open the entire clubhead relative to the line and the face along with it - UNLESS you restrict that natural motion of the clubhead. But no one in a good golf swing does that restriction and why would they?

[dairic]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1362082842' post='6521747']
Well I guess than we are talking about two totally different things. You are actually rotating the shaft in your video, in my example there is zero shaft rotation, ie clubface rotation about the shaft axis. Tee - just try my empirical test, exactly as I describe it, and let the clubhead fan open in an arc to the inside of the target line. And without rotating the back of your left hand either toward the sky or toward the ground. [b]And then tell me that the face is not open to the line[/b]? And I just tested your method with my clubhead against a wall - fixed - and bowed my left wrist and rotated the opposite way that you did, and lo and behold! - the face was open! Amazing how the wrists can manipulate the face into almost any angle we desire. But I thought we were talking about what happens in a good golf swing?

And where did you come up with this notion that in describing the actual wrist mechanics of the golf swing that the clubhead does not move in response to wrist motion?

If bowing the left wrist shuts the face to the target line, why does my low traj spinning Trevino wedge travel about 20 degrees to the right of my target line?

Hey, but I guess if Jeff Mann agrees with you, then it must be right, no?
[/quote]

We may be looking at this from different perspectives so please hear me out. I agree that from a setup position bowing the wrist results in the shaft moving backwards and the face opens relative to someone standing on the other side of the target line. In other words they can see more of the club face now so you could say that it's more open. If that's what you mean then I grant you that.

Now relative to the swing arc. I submit that the face is more shut due to bowing.

make sense?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1362084789' post='6521977']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1362082842' post='6521747']
Well I guess than we are talking about two totally different things. You are actually rotating the shaft in your video, in my example there is zero shaft rotation, ie clubface rotation about the shaft axis. Tee - just try my empirical test, exactly as I describe it, and let the clubhead fan open in an arc to the inside of the target line. And without rotating the back of your left hand either toward the sky or toward the ground. [b]And then tell me that the face is not open to the line[/b]? And I just tested your method with my clubhead against a wall - fixed - and bowed my left wrist and rotated the opposite way that you did, and lo and behold! - the face was open! Amazing how the wrists can manipulate the face into almost any angle we desire. But I thought we were talking about what happens in a good golf swing?

And where did you come up with this notion that in describing the actual wrist mechanics of the golf swing that the clubhead does not move in response to wrist motion?

If bowing the left wrist shuts the face to the target line, why does my low traj spinning Trevino wedge travel about 20 degrees to the right of my target line?

Hey, but I guess if Jeff Mann agrees with you, then it must be right, no?
[/quote]

We may be looking at this from different perspectives so please hear me out. I agree that from a setup position bowing the wrist results in the shaft moving backwards and the face opens relative to someone standing on the other side of the target line. In other words they can see more of the club face now so you could say that it's more open. If that's what you mean then I grant you that.

Now relative to the swing arc. I submit that the face is more shut due to bowing.

make sense?
[/quote]

Yes to to your first few sentences, that is exactly what I am referring to, and it refelcts what actually happens in a real golf swing. Nobody does what Tee is showing, it is nothing but the most extreme manipulation of the clubface and clubhead and I wonder if it is even possible to do in a normal speed golf swing.

No - it is more "shut" relative to the ground, ie hooded, it is not more shut relative to the arc of the clubhead, UNLESS you roll it shut. But guys - I do this everyday for my living, and it is fairly common for some of my new students to "naturally" roll it shut while bowing the left wrist toward flat, and for others to roll it open while bowing to flat. There are very likely anatomical reasons unique to the individual that explain why this is so. I myself bow my left wrist until it flattens, and my clubface stays perfectly square to my arc during the entire backswing. It is a great way to hit very accurate golf shots.

I am breaking my own long standing personal rule against posting about highly technical topics on a forum, knowing full well that a lot of this stuff is hard for my new students to understand even when attending a golf school, until we put them on a plane board and show them some of the illusions. I made an exception in this case since there really are no illusions about this issue, but there apparently are a lot of mis-conceptions.

And don't get my wrong, I have a tremendous amount of respect for Tee, he is an amazingly gifted golf swing researcher, I just think that we are literally talking about two totally different issues here.

[dairic]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1362085897' post='6522093']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1362084789' post='6521977']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1362082842' post='6521747']
Well I guess than we are talking about two totally different things. You are actually rotating the shaft in your video, in my example there is zero shaft rotation, ie clubface rotation about the shaft axis. Tee - just try my empirical test, exactly as I describe it, and let the clubhead fan open in an arc to the inside of the target line. And without rotating the back of your left hand either toward the sky or toward the ground. [b]And then tell me that the face is not open to the line[/b]? And I just tested your method with my clubhead against a wall - fixed - and bowed my left wrist and rotated the opposite way that you did, and lo and behold! - the face was open! Amazing how the wrists can manipulate the face into almost any angle we desire. But I thought we were talking about what happens in a good golf swing?

And where did you come up with this notion that in describing the actual wrist mechanics of the golf swing that the clubhead does not move in response to wrist motion?

If bowing the left wrist shuts the face to the target line, why does my low traj spinning Trevino wedge travel about 20 degrees to the right of my target line?

Hey, but I guess if Jeff Mann agrees with you, then it must be right, no?
[/quote]

We may be looking at this from different perspectives so please hear me out. I agree that from a setup position bowing the wrist results in the shaft moving backwards and the face opens relative to someone standing on the other side of the target line. In other words they can see more of the club face now so you could say that it's more open. If that's what you mean then I grant you that.

Now relative to the swing arc. I submit that the face is more shut due to bowing.

make sense?
[/quote]

Yes to to your first few sentences, that is exactly what I am referring to, and it refelcts what actually happens in a real golf swing. Nobody does what Tee is showing, it is nothing but the most extreme manipulation of the clubface and clubhead and I wonder if it is even possible to do in a normal speed golf swing.

No - it is more "shut" relative to the ground, ie hooded, it is not more shut relative to the arc of the clubhead, UNLESS you roll it shut. But guys - I do this everyday for my living, and it is fairly common for some of my new students to "naturally" roll it shut while bowing the left wrist toward flat, and for others to roll it open while bowing to flat. There are very likely anatomical reasons unique to the individual that explain why this is so. I myself bow my left wrist until it flattens, and my clubface stays perfectly square to my arc during the entire backswing. It is a great way to hit very accurate golf shots.

I am breaking my own long standing personal rule against posting about highly technical topics on a forum, knowing full well that a lot of this stuff is hard for my new students to understand even when attending a golf school, until we put them on a plane board and show them some of the illusions. I made an exception in this case since there really are no illusions about this issue, but there apparently are a lot of mis-conceptions.

And don't get my wrong, I have a tremendous amount of respect for Tee, he is an amazingly gifted golf swing researcher, I just think that we are literally talking about two totally different issues here.
[/quote]

ok I think I get ya now.

Most of the time when open or closed positions are discussed it's relative to the swing arc which is why I got a bit confused when you were insistant that bowing opened the face. If I understand you correctly your saying that it moves the shaft back up the plane, and the face stays square to the swing arc. I hope we agree that it doesn't open relative to the swing arc.

When I was looking at this last night it most definetly closed relative to the arc, but I'll check again to make sure nothing else was moving. Thanks again

[Jim Waldron]

Yes, often even when a word is clearly there in black and white, for all to see, ie "open to the Target Line", (not swing arc) - folks will still see what they want to see, or what their perceptual filters require them to see. It's just human nature. Yes, bowing if done correctly does or at least can move the shaft up the plane a little bit. You certainly do not want the face to open or close relative to the "arc" "clubhead path", or at least not by very much, if you are trying to hit the ball reasonably straight. If clubhead stays in the "toe up" position that it started on at Address, then it's a pretty good way of knowing the clubface is moving square to the arc.

[dairic]

Well I'm home again and after trying this again while being very careful that only the wrist moves I'm going to have to say that the result of my living room experiment hasn't changed. Shaft goes back, and face closes relative to the arc. You have to bow quite a bit before it becomes very noticeable but still there it is. Not trying to be difficult just telling it like I see it

I learnt a few things so thanks everyone, and Jim I look forward to reading your book!

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1362102090' post='6523695']
Well I'm home again and after trying this again while being very careful that only the wrist moves I'm going to have to say that the result of my living room experiment hasn't changed. Shaft goes back, and face closes relative to the arc. You have to bow quite a bit before it becomes very noticeable but still there it is. Not trying to be difficult just telling it like I see it

I learnt a few things so thanks everyone, and Jim I look forward to reading your book!
[/quote]

So you are probably like one of the examples I mentioned of a golfer who anatomaically is built that way, ie face closing to arc as you bow, or it is just a dominant habit, ie you are unconsciously rolling the forearms a bit as you bow. If the back of the left hand stays perpendicular to the ground as you bow, then the face cannot close or open to the arc, again - if you are built like most golfers in the wrist area. And the amount of bowing that I teach is only until the left wrist flattens in any case, not to actual full on bowing of the left wrist beyond the Flat stage. So doing it that way you will likely see little to no closing of the face.

Some folks conflate clubface hooding or de-lofting with clubface closure - they are really two different things. Bowing does de-loft the face.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1362107800' post='6524243']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1362102090' post='6523695']
Well I'm home again and after trying this again while being very careful that only the wrist moves I'm going to have to say that the result of my living room experiment hasn't changed. Shaft goes back, and face closes relative to the arc. You have to bow quite a bit before it becomes very noticeable but still there it is. Not trying to be difficult just telling it like I see it

I learnt a few things so thanks everyone, and Jim I look forward to reading your book!
[/quote]

So you are probably like one of the examples I mentioned of a golfer who anatomaically is built that way, ie face closing to arc as you bow, or it is just a dominant habit, ie you are unconsciously rolling the forearms a bit as you bow. [b]If the back of the left hand stays perpendicular to the ground as you bow[/b], then the face cannot close or open to the arc, again - if you are built like most golfers in the wrist area. And the amount of bowing that I teach is only until the left wrist flattens in any case, not to actual full on bowing of the left wrist beyond the Flat stage. So doing it that way you will likely see little to no closing of the face.

Some folks conflate clubface hooding or de-lofting with clubface closure - they are really two different things. Bowing does de-loft the face.
[/quote]

How could it do that??

That's the case, when arm is hanging down, PF turns the back of the left hand pointing to the ground and palm facing up. Just the thing what confused Hogan because like that supination was defined in dictionaries.

That was also the case with Jeff Mann and Manzella how I knew right away they were doing it wrong way. They both turned their back of the left hand facing to camera and that never happens with pure PF. Just be sure that if you extend your left thumb, you keep it pointing to the same direction all the time when bowing. If it turns away, something else is included.

And JIm, really in geometry it does both, closes and delofts the face as far as we stay away from total 90 degrees angles at the grip. The amount of closing and delofting is dependent of grip angle and when other rises, other amount gets smaller.

[Jim Waldron]

As I said, we are now reduced to quibling about semantics, ie how we define precisely what PF or bowing means. You say it means one thing and I say it is another matter altogether. My strong guess is that if we spent ten mintues together in person, you could very likely explain to me - to my total satisfaction - what it is exactly you are talking about here - and vice versa.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1362112739' post='6524661']
As I said, we are now reduced to quibling about semantics, ie how we define precisely what PF or bowing means. You say it means one thing and I say it is another matter altogether. My strong guess is that if we spent ten mintues together in person, you could very likely explain to me - to my total satisfaction - what it is exactly you are talking about here - and vice versa.
[/quote]

I'm 100% sure about that Jim, because I know exactly how you are doing it and what is the difference. That also explains why people see it really two opposite ways and can't understand each others. Shortly I have named those moves 90 and 45 degree bowings and that 45 model opens the face but also turns the palm to another direction, so it's not pure PF but one of the ways people, specially those who are not in very deep in anatomy, sees and feels the bowing happens.

[ej002]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1360884018' post='6430493']
I've seen Mac do it, but I have been cast out of the inner circle lo' nigh on 18 years now. No matter, I now have my own inner circle I hang with, but none of us can switch-hit as good as Mac.
[/quote]

I hope he didnt send you one of those crazy letters kicking you out...

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1361903431' post='6507137']
We all agree that his arm swing and body pivot matched as well as anyone else's. And we know he pivoted with reckless abandon. Dude had giant butt cheeks to power that turn. Would even make pinsplitter's ladyboys in Thailand proud.

So how did he get his body and arm swing to match so well? Them arms and clubs are heavy. They ain't swinging themselves.

So how did he do it?
[/quote]
Scaring me bro - talking about ladyboys and buttcheeks...

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1361910158' post='6507935']
so basically the move is a reverse motorcycle throddle action. Am I right? That's what it felt like anyway. In that sense it feels handsy because it takes effort.
[/quote]

Oh no, not the "harley move" again... ugggg. Burley???

[ej002]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1362084415' post='6521923']
I'm dying here.
[/quote]
Somewhere, 8iron is laughing hysterically about this argument, how everone argues with Tee over this same thing...

If anyone presses their ulna and radius (at the wrist joint) against a table or something (so they cannot twist), and you just bow your wrist, the only thing that happens is the club head goes back up the arc. Basically you are now dragging the clubhead. The face is square to the arc (provided it was square when you started), the only thing is that it is a bit more delofted. If you rotated your body through this position, the club would return to square at the impact.

Tee said he is not moving this thumb, so other things are rotating around this thumb to close the face

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1362172154' post='6529201']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1362084415' post='6521923']
I'm dying here.
[/quote]
Somewhere, 8iron is laughing hysterically about this argument, how everone argues with Tee over this same thing...

If anyone presses their ulna and radius (at the wrist joint) against a table or something (so they cannot twist), and you just bow your wrist, the only thing that happens is the club head goes back up the arc. Basically you are now dragging the clubhead. The face is square to the arc (provided it was square when you started), the only thing is that it is a bit more delofted. If you rotated your body through this position, the club would return to square at the impact.

Tee said he is not moving this thumb, so other things are rotating around this thumb to close the face
[/quote]

Thank you, Ej - you said it much more eloguently that I was able to communicate. Last night I typed "Palmer Flexion" into Googlee Images, and a lot of pics came up, describing exactly what you described. And I looked in a few anatomy texts and online as well for a written description of the term, and in every case, it matched my understanding. Tee clearly has a different take on it that is unique to him. In his version, the thumb and the clubhead do not move, which is pretty strange, because the pics I saw and the written descriptions say nothing about keeping the thumb in the same vertical plane, which of course requires a ton of forearm rotation to achieve. Tee must have arrived at his own definition because something about it seems to work either in his own swing or in some of his student's swings. I just don't see any good player doing that move, ie restricting the fanning open motion of the hand in the horizontal dimension by "curling under", in the downswing. Some do a slight version during takeaway, like Joe Dante's early wrist break move in Four Magic Moves.

[ej002]

No problem Jim - half of the arguments on here are over miswordings, misunderstandings, assumption of defintions, etc. Part of my job in life is to write clearly and to the point - hopefully I did a good job and everyone else gets sees what you two are discussing.

I think the difference in your and Tee's "way" might have significant consequences in the real world.

To keep the face square in your method, the right wrist needs to hold that bend (i.e. the greg norman secret feel) though impact. The problem I think arises, is if you you allow that right wrist to uncup after you already bowed the left (as Tee right hand would have to do to keep the club face and his left thumb stationary while bowing the left). In that situation, bowing then releasing the right wrist bend, the face will shut will get the lefts. I think that is what Tee is saying...

I think this may have been what MJ was talking about leakage causing hooks... in Tee's example, there is no leakage, its a gusher.

Hopefully this doesnt confuse anyone... I might have confused myself.

[Jim Waldron]

Thanks, Ej - in the method I am advocating, when coupled with what I call Standard Balance Point Release - that is no "holding on" but letting momentum moved toward release of the angles, and when coupled with a neutral to slightly strong grip in the left and neutral right, there will indeed be some slight movement of the right wrists hinge angle toward unhinging. But remember I am not advocating an actual bowed left wrist during the backswing, but a flat left wrist. A flat left wrist/moderate right wrist hinge angle when allowed to release freely - if your Pivot Thrust timing is correct and your arms are connected to your chest - will result for most folks in a face that stays pretty square to the path during release, or a very slight closure. It is a very accurate way to play. That little unhinging of the right wrist angle I call a micro-flip and can add a bit of clubhead speed as well. It is a very natural way to play.

For advanced players, the exact same grip but with firmer overall grip pressure, will slow down that unhinging right wrist/face closure dynamic a bit,and that golfer can add actual bowing of the left wrist on Transition for a number of good effects, one being more shaft lean for more distnce and lower traj, and also because it gives one "room" for that micro-flip release, and still have plenty of shaft lean at impact. Or the golfer can hold on even firmer and resist that micro-flip totally, for even lower traj.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1362174094' post='6529421']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1362172154' post='6529201']


Tee said he is not moving this thumb, so other things are rotating around this thumb to close the face
[/quote]

Thank you, Ej - you said it much more eloguently that I was able to communicate. Last night I typed "Palmer Flexion" into Googlee Images, and a lot of pics came up, describing exactly what you described. And I looked in a few anatomy texts and online as well for a written description of the term, and in every case, it matched my understanding. Tee clearly has a different take on it that is unique to him. In his version, the thumb and the clubhead do not move, which is pretty strange, because the pics I saw and the written descriptions say nothing about keeping the thumb in the same vertical plane, which of course requires a ton of forearm rotation to achieve. Tee must have arrived at his own definition because something about it seems to work either in his own swing or in some of his student's swings. I just don't see any good player doing that move, ie restricting the fanning open motion of the hand in the horizontal dimension by "curling under", in the downswing. Some do a slight version during takeaway, like Joe Dante's early wrist break move in Four Magic Moves.
[/quote]

Not really. I just keep that radial joint axis at the same angle all the time as JM and Manzella when showing it changed it. It's all in my videos if you spend some time to watch them.

[Lefthook]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1362107800' post='6524243']


Some folks conflate clubface hooding or de-lofting with clubface closure - they are really two different things. Bowing does de-loft the face.
[/quote]

Bowing will deloft when the left wrist is completely uncocked and close the face when the left wrist is cocked. So you're both right in a way. But Ace's pov is IMO far more relevant in the context of a golf stroke, except perhaps when discussing takeaway and back swing.

[ej002]

[quote name='Lefthook' timestamp='1364142509' post='6678525']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1362107800' post='6524243']
Some folks conflate clubface hooding or de-lofting with clubface closure - they are really two different things. Bowing does de-loft the face.
[/quote]

Bowing will deloft when the left wrist is completely uncocked and close the face when the left wrist is cocked. So you're both right in a way. But Ace's pov is IMO far more relevant in the context of a golf stroke, except perhaps when discussing takeaway and back swing.
[/quote]

How so, you can hold off a bowed left wrist and hit a bullet fade, that is pretty relevant to me. The face is not shut, but open.

[dairic]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1364219054' post='6687521']
[quote name='Lefthook' timestamp='1364142509' post='6678525']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1362107800' post='6524243']
Some folks conflate clubface hooding or de-lofting with clubface closure - they are really two different things. Bowing does de-loft the face.
[/quote]

Bowing will deloft when the left wrist is completely uncocked and close the face when the left wrist is cocked. So you're both right in a way. But Ace's pov is IMO far more relevant in the context of a golf stroke, except perhaps when discussing takeaway and back swing.
[/quote]

How so, you can hold off a bowed left wrist and hit a bullet fade, that is pretty relevant to me. The face is not shut, but open.
[/quote]

Vertical hinge action?

It's inconceivable to me how palmar flexion can open the face relative to path. With or without UD.

If it opens it must be caused by some other movement of the body.

[ej002]

It doesnt open in relation to the arc, it just puts it back up the arc and open in relation to the target, like a delayed action. Go to the range and drag a bowed wrist through the impact zone with a body style release. See what happens.

[dairic]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1364227669' post='6688969']
It doesnt open in relation to the arc, it just puts it back up the arc and open in relation to the target, like a delayed action. Go to the range and drag a bowed wrist through the impact zone with a body style release. See what happens.
[/quote]

yep I understand. It basically adds a bit of lag. When you said "The face is not shut, but open" I thought this was about face/path relationship rather than face/target line relationship since the face/path relationship is what causes the fade.

I've yet to understand the value of describing things interms of face open to target line when discussing bowing the left wrist. Something like "back up the arc" as you said is a lot more clear IMO and doesn't feed into the confusion.

[Lefthook]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1364219054' post='6687521']
[quote name='Lefthook' timestamp='1364142509' post='6678525']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1362107800' post='6524243']
Some folks conflate clubface hooding or de-lofting with clubface closure - they are really two different things. Bowing does de-loft the face.
[/quote]

Bowing will deloft when the left wrist is completely uncocked and close the face when the left wrist is cocked. So you're both right in a way. But Ace's pov is IMO far more relevant in the context of a golf stroke, except perhaps when discussing takeaway and back swing.
[/quote]

How so, you can hold off a bowed left wrist and hit a bullet fade, that is pretty relevant to me. The face is not shut, but open.
[/quote]

There will typically be some club face closing during any normal release. When you hold the bow you will hit the ball with hands way ahead of the ball. If you did that without the bow but with the same club head lag, the face would be wide open. Fore right. Besides, if you do the bow before the release you will turn the club around the longitudinal sweetspot (shat axis-ish) and nothing else.

If you want to hit the ball with deloft you can bow or take a stronger grip. Impact dynamics will be different but the result will practically be the same.

[tembolo1284]

So what happened to this thread in the end?

[ej002]

I think there is still a disagreement.

[tembolo1284]

is the disagreement about if the bowing of the wrist opens or closes the face?

[ej002]

Think so.

[tembolo1284]

Why did they stop discussing it? I'd expect Tee to put out a video and all that like he usually does!

[tembolo1284]

Oh how I like this thread.

[ALIF]

Could I hold the lag better if I bow my wrist more? Lol.

[tembolo1284]

So would that open or close the face more?