Hogan's arms/hands and his shirt buttons

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1361937468' post='6511309']


Jim, I'm a little bit confused by this. Are you saying that bowing the wrist with or without UD opens the face?

Living room experiment:
1) leading arm and shaft at a 90 degree angle. Bowing the wrist does nothing but close the face.
2) leading arm and shaft inline because of added UD. Bowing the wrist moves the shaft away from the target (I think this is what MJ meant by added lag) and face closes.

What am I doing wrong here?
[/quote]

Nothing. You are just right with this.

[Jim Waldron]

Dairic - I am not picturing what you are referencing there. If you put a shaft on the ground for target line, and place the clubhead on that shaft and 90 degrees to it, ie square, and then bow the left wrist while not moving any other body part, the face angle opens up relative to the target line and it is also de-lofted. Do the opposite, ie a flip move of the left wrist, the face is shut to target line and loft increaes. Does not matter if you c0ck the left wrist up and then un-c0ck down, the face is still open to the target line.

The reason that so many teachers get this wrong is that if the golfer permits a full and free release from momentum, ie no holding on, then momentum will cause the bowed wrist at the Top/open face to rapidly move to it's polar opposite, as CF causes the left upper arm/lower arm/wrist/shaft to form a straight line, which causes the forearms to roll the face shut. The opposite for a cupped left wrist at the Top/closed face turns into an open face at impact.

And MJ - I know what the TGM terms mean, I referred to the common nomenclature of most teachers, not TGM. Many will teach an "arched" position with both wrists when putting, for example.

[Jim Waldron]

Perhaps I should have been more precise so that there is no confusion. Bowing the left wrist in my example will cause the face angle to point to the right of the target line, flipping it causes the face angle to point to the left or shut.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1361992302' post='6514687']
Perhaps I should have been more precise so that there is no confusion. Bowing the left wrist in my example will cause the face angle to point to the right of the target line, flipping it causes the face angle to point to the left or shut.
[/quote]

Yes, I understood that, which is why bending the left wrist through impact can cause leakage hooks.

[dairic]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1361992171' post='6514681']
Dairic - I am not picturing what you are referencing there. If you put a shaft on the ground for target line, and place the clubhead on that shaft and 90 degrees to it, ie square, and then bow the left wrist while not moving any other body part, the face angle opens up relative to the target line and it is also de-lofted. Do the opposite, ie a flip move of the left wrist, the face is shut to target line and loft increaes. Does not matter if you c0ck the left wrist up and then un-c0ck down, the face is still open to the target line.

The reason that so many teachers get this wrong is that if the golfer permits a full and free release from momentum, ie no holding on, then momentum will cause the bowed wrist at the Top/open face to rapidly move to it's polar opposite, as CF causes the left upper arm/lower arm/wrist/shaft to form a straight line, which causes the forearms to roll the face shut. The opposite for a cupped left wrist at the Top/closed face turns into an open face at impact.

And MJ - I know what the TGM terms mean, I referred to the common nomenclature of most teachers, not TGM. Many will teach an "arched" position with both wrists when putting, for example.
[/quote]

Thanks, I'll experiment the next time I have a club in my hands!

[TeeAce]

The point is that if you keep everything same and don't move the club head away from it's position and keep the hand still, the bowing will close the face as it rotates shaft around it's own axis as Dairic pointed.

In other words, the face will be more closed at impact with bowed wrist than without it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6FzFd-1-yc

And maybe another also to define some different movements

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9Xmp36R-dI

[dairic]

This is interesting tapio and jim because I see that you're both right somehow.

[b]Tapio[/b], if I follow exactly what you say in that first video I also see the club face closing when bowing the wrist. This should be undeniable to anyone who tries it.

However,

[b]Jim[/b], if I modify your suggestion just a bit I can see the face opening. You mentioned getting in sort of a set up position with the club head square to the target line and while not moving any body part except bowing the wrist I should see the club face open. If this is done strictly as you say (only the wrist moves, not the arms or anything else) then what in fact happens is the club shaft moves backwards away form the target and the face closes. Now, if instead I set up the same way but press towards the target with my entire body (add tilt) so that the cup and the back of my left wrist (which exist during set up) becomes flat (body now in impact position) then the face opens. very interesting!!

Now, if I do it as you suggested by only bowing the wrist and as a result the club shaft moves back a bit and face closes, and from this position I move into impact position, then the club face is open to the target. Why? [u]because secondary axis tilt opens the face![/u] If the bowing action opened the face then with the addition of secondary axis tilt the face would be wide open. [u]Bowing in a sense promotes more axis tilt.[/u]

So you're both right in a sense

If mr hogan didn't have as much tilt at impact as he does in this picture, the club face would be shut down and he'd hit a snap hook. On the other hand if he had this amount of tilt but without the wrist bowing, then he's slice it off the planet.

Anyway, I think I made a mess at explaining this, but hopefully you get my gist

[attachment=1561909:hogan_tilt.jpg]

[tembolo1284]

It's funny because tiger says he bows the face when he wants to hit a hard fade. Maybe there's something to it.

[dairic]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1362062959' post='6519707']
It's funny because tiger says he bows the face when he wants to hit a hard fade. Maybe there's something to it.
[/quote]

Interesting. I wonder if he means a kind of hold off move where the back the left hand leads throughout the follow through.

In any case probably the best place to see the face closing when bowing is at P6 where the left wrist is still fully c@cked. Bow the wrist there and see what happens to the face.

What's you view on all this? Or are you still too busy taring courses apart!

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1362064774' post='6519895']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1362062959' post='6519707']
It's funny because tiger says he bows the face when he wants to hit a hard fade. Maybe there's something to it.
[/quote]

Interesting. I wonder if he means a kind of hold off move where the back the left hand leads throughout the follow through.

In any case probably the best place to see the face closing when bowing is at P6 where the left wrist is still fully c@cked. Bow the wrist there and see what happens to the face.

What's you view on all this? Or are you still too busy taring courses apart!
[/quote]

I believe it closes the face when i'm coming into the ball on the downswing. When i'm at impact though...i'm not so sure. Depends on how you lean the shaft fwd when you bow your wrist or if you keep your wrist there and move the head back. Tricky tricky...esp with diff shades of grip strength.

[TeeAce]

It's all pretty much dependent of grip. And not only how strong the grip is, but also how parallel / perpendicular the hand is (short thumb / long thumb)

Another explanation for that Tigers hold of fade is that when you do that bowing move, it's about impossible to rotate the left forearm at the same time as it kind of locks it with PF and UD combination.

It has been few years now from the first time I said Hogan used wrong term as he described that movement and maybe time starts to be right that people now really start to understand it. That bowing (palmar flexion) what he showed in 5L in combination with Ulnar deviation actually prevents us to supinate the left forearm. He didn't want it to roll, as well Tiger doesn't nowadays and those wrist movements are great way to close the face just enough but never too much.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1362068625' post='6520339']
It's all pretty much dependent of grip. And not only how strong the grip is, but also how parallel / perpendicular the hand is (short thumb / long thumb)

Another explanation for that Tigers hold of fade is that when you do that bowing move, it's about impossible to rotate the left forearm at the same time as it kind of locks it with PF and UD combination.

It has been few years now from the first time I said Hogan used wrong term as he described that movement and maybe time starts to be right that people now really start to understand it. That bowing (palmar flexion) what he showed in 5L in combination with Ulnar deviation actually prevents us to supinate the left forearm. He didn't want it to roll, as well Tiger doesn't nowadays and those wrist movements are great way to close the face just enough but never too much.
[/quote]

Beautifully said Tee!

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1362065147' post='6519931']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1362064774' post='6519895']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1362062959' post='6519707']
It's funny because tiger says he bows the face when he wants to hit a hard fade. Maybe there's something to it.
[/quote]

Interesting. I wonder if he means a kind of hold off move where the back the left hand leads throughout the follow through.

In any case probably the best place to see the face closing when bowing is at P6 where the left wrist is still fully c@cked. Bow the wrist there and see what happens to the face.

What's you view on all this? Or are you still too busy taring courses apart!
[/quote]

I believe it closes the face when i'm coming into the ball on the downswing. When i'm at impact though...i'm not so sure. Depends on how you lean the shaft fwd when you bow your wrist or if you keep your wrist there and move the head back. Tricky tricky...esp with diff shades of grip strength.
[/quote]

That's because you do like most everyone who try to bow the left wrist and also add some left forearm swivel.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1362069466' post='6520441']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1362065147' post='6519931']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1362064774' post='6519895']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1362062959' post='6519707']
It's funny because tiger says he bows the face when he wants to hit a hard fade. Maybe there's something to it.
[/quote]

Interesting. I wonder if he means a kind of hold off move where the back the left hand leads throughout the follow through.

In any case probably the best place to see the face closing when bowing is at P6 where the left wrist is still fully c@cked. Bow the wrist there and see what happens to the face.

What's you view on all this? Or are you still too busy taring courses apart!
[/quote]

I believe it closes the face when i'm coming into the ball on the downswing. When i'm at impact though...i'm not so sure. Depends on how you lean the shaft fwd when you bow your wrist or if you keep your wrist there and move the head back. Tricky tricky...esp with diff shades of grip strength.
[/quote]

That's because you do like most everyone who try to bow the left wrist and also add some left forearm swivel.
[/quote]

You can see me?

[Jim Waldron]

This is really great, Tee and I finally disagree about something! Actually, like most conflcting swing theories, the conflict usually boils down to simply a different way of defining one's terms. Notice how I said to not move any other body part, and Tee says without letting the clubhead move. That is the crux of the matter. My concept of "fake" bowing is that it indeed shuts the face - but not BECAUSE of the bowing - but rather by the rotation of the forearms, spinning the entire clubhead along the shaft axis as Tee says. But of course the bowing I am talking about does indeed result in the clubhead moving inside the target line, ie fanning open. That is my whole point. There is NO attempt to keep it from moving by creating a counter-force like forearm rotation.

My example is a perfect and elegant and simple empirical test that any golfer can perform is two minutes in their own living room. I stand by it's conclusions.

And I teach bowing on the takeaway to all of my students as part of standard wrist action, along with c0cking of the wrists upwards, we call the bowing during takeway "hinging", and the hinging and c0cking happen simultaneously. The hinging is just enough to flatten the left wrist, no more.

I teach further bowing of the left wrist during Transition as an option for advanced players. There is not independent forearm roll happening during any of these wrist actions, and the grip type is slightly strong toward neutral, ie avoiding the extrmees of very strong or very weak, else this wrist action will not work.

By the way Tee, I have never seen a good player who bows the left wrist without the clubhead moving into an open position.

[Jim Waldron]

For all of you who still think bowing shuts the face, please pay attention to the plane of the back of your left hand, and please try to remember where the Target Line is. If you lose sight of those two things, and unconsiously roll your forearms or even your upper arms or tilt your spine leftward, you are going to see the face close, but only because of those body moves. If you ONLY bow your left wrist, keeping the plane of the back of your left hand the same as Address, and let the entire club move in an arc to your right, then obviously the face - along with the entire clubhead - is now open to the Target Line. This is indisputable fact, but very hard for most golfers to understand for some reason. Maybe I should now classify this as Golf Swing Illusion Number 33!

I can hit big push fades all day long by bowing on takeaway without rolling the face independently of the clubhead, and do nothing else different in my swing. And I can hit pull hooks doing the opposite move.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1362071702' post='6520639']
For all of you who still think bowing shuts the face, please pay attention to the plane of the back of your left hand, and please try to remember where the Target Line is. If you lose sight of those two things, and unconsiously roll your forearms or even your upper arms or tilt your spine leftward, you are going to see the face close, but only because of those body moves. If you ONLY bow your left wrist, keeping the plane of the back of your left hand the same as Address, and let the entire club move in an arc to your right, then obviously the face - along with the entire clubhead - is now open to the Target Line. This is indisputable fact, but very hard for most golfers to understand for some reason. Maybe I should now classify this as Golf Swing Illusion Number 33!

I can hit big push fades all day long by bowing on takeaway without rolling the face independently of the clubhead, and do nothing else different in my swing. And I can hit pull hooks doing the opposite move.
[/quote]

I agree with this!

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1362071702' post='6520639']
For all of you who still think bowing shuts the face, please pay attention to the plane of the back of your left hand, and please try to remember where the Target Line is. If you lose sight of those two things, and unconsiously roll your forearms or even your upper arms or tilt your spine leftward, you are going to see the face close, but only because of those body moves. If you ONLY bow your left wrist, keeping the plane of the back of your left hand the same as Address, and let the entire club move in an arc to your right, then obviously the face - along with the entire clubhead - is now open to the Target Line. This is indisputable fact, but very hard for most golfers to understand for some reason. Maybe I should now classify this as Golf Swing Illusion Number 33!

I can hit big push fades all day long by bowing on takeaway without rolling the face independently of the clubhead, and do nothing else different in my swing. And I can hit pull hooks doing the opposite move.
[/quote]

A Doctoral Thesis on the Bowed Left Wrist!

[dairic]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1362071702' post='6520639']
For all of you who still think bowing shuts the face, please pay attention to the plane of the back of your left hand, and please try to remember where the Target Line is. If you lose sight of those two things, and unconsiously roll your forearms or even your upper arms or tilt your spine leftward, you are going to see the face close, but only because of those body moves. If you ONLY bow your left wrist, keeping the plane of the back of your left hand the same as Address, and let the entire club move in an arc to your right, then obviously the face - along with the entire clubhead - is now open to the Target Line. This is indisputable fact, but very hard for most golfers to understand for some reason. Maybe I should now classify this as Golf Swing Illusion Number 33!

I can hit big push fades all day long by bowing on takeaway without rolling the face independently of the clubhead, and do nothing else different in my swing. And I can hit pull hooks doing the opposite move.
[/quote]

Does anyone know of any video showing that ONLY bowing your wrist will open the face? I don't see that at all.

I know I'm out numbered here, but I seriously can't see how thats even possible. I must have a different definition of bowing. Palmar Flexion is what I'm refering to.

[dairic]

Ok let me ask everyone this. If you get into P6 position with the left wrist fully cocked, and you only bow your wrist do you see the club face close or open? If you see it open then we are talking about completely different things.

With the left wrist fully cocked bowing should only rotate the shaft around it's own axis, so the only thing moving is the face opening or closing.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1362077246' post='6521181']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1362071702' post='6520639']
For all of you who still think bowing shuts the face, please pay attention to the plane of the back of your left hand, and please try to remember where the Target Line is. If you lose sight of those two things, and unconsiously roll your forearms or even your upper arms or tilt your spine leftward, you are going to see the face close, but only because of those body moves. If you ONLY bow your left wrist, keeping the plane of the back of your left hand the same as Address, and let the entire club move in an arc to your right, then obviously the face - along with the entire clubhead - is now open to the Target Line. This is indisputable fact, but very hard for most golfers to understand for some reason. Maybe I should now classify this as Golf Swing Illusion Number 33!

I can hit big push fades all day long by bowing on takeaway without rolling the face independently of the clubhead, and do nothing else different in my swing. And I can hit pull hooks doing the opposite move.
[/quote]

Does anyone know of any video showing that ONLY bowing your wrist will open the face? I don't see that at all.

I know I'm out numbered here, but I seriously can't see how thats even possible. I must have a different definition of bowing. Palmar Flexion is what I'm refering to.
[/quote]

are you keeping the clubhead still and just bowing your wrist forward? Or are you keeping your hands still and bowing your wrist and allowing the head to move back? Matters

[dairic]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1362077763' post='6521221']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1362077246' post='6521181']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1362071702' post='6520639']
For all of you who still think bowing shuts the face, please pay attention to the plane of the back of your left hand, and please try to remember where the Target Line is. If you lose sight of those two things, and unconsiously roll your forearms or even your upper arms or tilt your spine leftward, you are going to see the face close, but only because of those body moves. If you ONLY bow your left wrist, keeping the plane of the back of your left hand the same as Address, and let the entire club move in an arc to your right, then obviously the face - along with the entire clubhead - is now open to the Target Line. This is indisputable fact, but very hard for most golfers to understand for some reason. Maybe I should now classify this as Golf Swing Illusion Number 33!

I can hit big push fades all day long by bowing on takeaway without rolling the face independently of the clubhead, and do nothing else different in my swing. And I can hit pull hooks doing the opposite move.
[/quote]

Does anyone know of any video showing that ONLY bowing your wrist will open the face? I don't see that at all.

I know I'm out numbered here, but I seriously can't see how thats even possible. I must have a different definition of bowing. Palmar Flexion is what I'm refering to.
[/quote]

are you keeping the clubhead still and just bowing your wrist forward? Or are you keeping your hands still and bowing your wrist and allowing the head to move back? Matters
[/quote]

keeping hands still and bowing my wrist and allowing the head to move back. The club head moves back because of UD, and closes because of PF. That's how I see it anyway

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1362077909' post='6521237']

keeping hands still and bowing my wrist and allowing the head to move back. The club head moves back because of UD, and closes because of PF. That's how I see it anyway
[/quote]

Actually it moves back by radial deviation, but you are right that pure PF never opens the face. One more short video how it affects to the face at that point

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3ZiqTAEt8A

[Jim Waldron]

C'mon guys - this is really not difficult to understand. Dairc - you are right, you must have a different explanation of what "open" and "closed" means - only possible explanation for your confusion. And Tee - I have no idea why you don't get this.

When you "bow" the left wrist at Address without ANY forearm roll, the entire clubhead fans open, ie to the inside of the target line, and since the face angle is a part of the clubhead, the face is now pointing to the right of the Target Line, ie if target was 6 o'clock on a clockface on the ground, the face will point around 1:30-2:30 depending how much bowing you did.

At P6 with fully c0cked wrists and a flat left wrist, if you then moved the left wrist to bowed position, WITHOUT rolling the forearms at all, the face angle becomes more open to the target line, ie it moves "behind you", the clubhead that is. If you flip the left wrist from P6, the face is closed to the Target LIne.

Maybe everyone should go back and read my original post about fake vs pure bowing and their influence on clubface angle. Pure bowing will always open the face, and pure "cupping" or flipping will close the face. Forearm rotation is all whole different animal - although the two things certainly influence each other during the dynamics of the release.

I teach hinging and un-hinging or bowing and un-bowing the wrist as a form of short game shots, ie chipping and short pitches and it is very apparent that if the golfer returns to the exact same position at impact as his starting position at Addreess, and with no other body changes, the bowed wrist that is held in the bowed position will create a shot that goes right of target and low traj, and the opposite for a flipped wrist. Which is why when performing a Trevino style low traj spinning wedge, where you really need a lot of bow in the left wrist at impact, you also have to be more open with the shoulder girdle at impact than a normal wedge shot, or else you will hit a big push to the right. Or - you aim left at the start to compensate, like Lee showed me many years ago.

This stuff is not rocket science....and it ain't brain surgery either.

A couple of years ago there was a thread on the Manzella forum where this exact same issue was discussed, and I recall how frustrated Brian and Kevin became because almost none of the folks responding understood this. Maybe it is just one of those things that cannot be proven on a forum?

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1362081237' post='6521565']
C'mon guys - this is really not difficult to understand. Dairc - you are right, you must have a different explanation of what "open" and "closed" means - only possible explanation for your confusion. And Tee - I have no idea why you don't get this.

When you "bow" the left wrist at Address without ANY forearm roll, the entire clubhead fans open, ie to the inside of the target line, and since the face angle is a part of the clubhead, the face is now pointing to the right of the Target Line, ie if target was 6 o'clock on a clockface on the ground, the face will point around 1:30-2:30 depending how much bowing you did.

At P6 with fully c0cked wrists and a flat left wrist, if you then moved the left wrist to bowed position, WITHOUT rolling the forearms at all, the face angle becomes more open to the target line, ie it moves "behind you", the clubhead that is. If you flip the left wrist from P6, the face is closed to the Target LIne.

Maybe everyone should go back and read my original post about fake vs pure bowing and their influence on clubface angle. Pure bowing will always open the face, and pure "cupping" or flipping will close the face. Forearm rotation is all whole different animal - although the two things certainly influence each other during the dynamics of the release.

I teach hinging and un-hinging or bowing and un-bowing the wrist as a form of short game shots, ie chipping and short pitches and it is very apparent that if the golfer returns to the exact same position at impact as his starting position at Addreess, and with no other body changes, the bowed wrist that is held in the bowed position will create a shot that goes right of target and low traj, and the opposite for a flipped wrist. Which is why when performing a Trevino style low traj spinning wedge, where you really need a lot of bow in the left wrist at impact, you also have to be more open with the shoulder girdle at impact than a normal wedge shot, or else you will hit a big push to the right. Or - you aim left at the start to compensate, like Lee showed me many years ago.

This stuff is not rocket science....and it ain't brain surgery either.

A couple of years ago there was a thread on the Manzella forum where this exact same issue was discussed, and I recall how frustrated Brian and Kevin became because almost none of the folks responding understood this. Maybe it is just one of those things that cannot be proven on a forum?
[/quote]

You could clear this up for dairic in 5 mins face to face!

[TeeAce]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1362081237' post='6521565']
And Tee - I have no idea why you don't get this.



A couple of years ago there was a thread on the Manzella forum where this exact same issue was discussed, and I recall how frustrated Brian and Kevin became because almost none of the folks responding understood this. Maybe it is just one of those things that cannot be proven on a forum?
[/quote]

Jim, you are doing it wrong way just like Manzella was doing it. You add pronation and RD to that move and that's why it moves also away. It can never be like that with pure PF and perpendicular grip.

And I really remember how I tried to explain this also to Manzella and some others.. with many videos and I really wonder how this basic geometry is not understood. By keeping the club head in it's position and hand also, the face is more closed with PF because it rotates the shaft to that direction, just like in that short video i show it. If the club head moves away from its position, some other wrist action is included to that. Even Jeff Mann understood it after one month

Here is one more from last year

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdJ76A-gd9s

[Jim Waldron]

Well I guess than we are talking about two totally different things. You are actually rotating the shaft in your video, in my example there is zero shaft rotation, ie clubface rotation about the shaft axis. Tee - just try my empirical test, exactly as I describe it, and let the clubhead fan open in an arc to the inside of the target line. And without rotating the back of your left hand either toward the sky or toward the ground. And then tell me that the face is not open to the line? And I just tested your method with my clubhead against a wall - fixed - and bowed my left wrist and rotated the opposite way that you did, and lo and behold! - the face was open! Amazing how the wrists can manipulate the face into almost any angle we desire. But I thought we were talking about what happens in a good golf swing?

And where did you come up with this notion that in describing the actual wrist mechanics of the golf swing that the clubhead does not move in response to wrist motion?

If bowing the left wrist shuts the face to the target line, why does my low traj spinning Trevino wedge travel about 20 degrees to the right of my target line?

Hey, but I guess if Jeff Mann agrees with you, then it must be right, no?

[TeeAce]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1362082842' post='6521747']


Hey, but I guess if Jeff Mann agrees with you, then it must be right, no?
[/quote]

No, there is not many things I agree with him, but he explained it pretty well in this video

[url="http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/23179003"]http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/23179003[/url]

Or actually not really well, because at the beginning of the video he didn't make pure PF at all, it was made with RD and small pronation, just like BM did it ;D

And the answer to your question is what I already told earlier. The amount of closing is very limited with that PF move and without it you roll your arms bit more. It doesn't change the fact what I show in those videos that it's rotating the shaft and closing the face relative to the DF. But DF allows you to rotate your forearms and face will be more closed than with pure PF.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1362081878' post='6521655']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1362081237' post='6521565']
And Tee - I have no idea why you don't get this.



A couple of years ago there was a thread on the Manzella forum where this exact same issue was discussed, and I recall how frustrated Brian and Kevin became because almost none of the folks responding understood this. Maybe it is just one of those things that cannot be proven on a forum?
[/quote]

Jim, you are doing it wrong way just like Manzella was doing it. You add pronation and RD to that move and that's why it moves also away. It can never be like that with pure PF and perpendicular grip.

And I really remember how I tried to explain this also to Manzella and some others.. with many videos and I really wonder how this basic geometry is not understood. By keeping the club head in it's position and hand also, the face is more closed with PF because it rotates the shaft to that direction, just like in that short video i show it. If the club head moves away from its position, some other wrist action is included to that. Even Jeff Mann understood it after one month

Here is one more from last year

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdJ76A-gd9s
[/quote]

Tee,

You are bowing with the arm and shaft vertical. Bowing opens the face if the shaft is on an inclined plane.

[tembolo1284]

I'm dying here.