The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy

[ofortuna]

Are there any drills for pushing away the arms on the post impact part of the swing? When I think of super connection into impact with the pivot powering the swing, I get locked up in the followthrough and spin out. The V drill on the ASI video demonstrates that the arms pushaway after impact just like they do in the takeaway.

I know too much tension is a factor but my arms after impact seems out of sync and dragged way inside from my pivot in an attempt to get power.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='ofortuna' timestamp='1437628078' post='12004418']
Are there any drills for pushing away the arms on the post impact part of the swing? When I think of super connection into impact with the pivot powering the swing, I get locked up in the followthrough and spin out. The V drill on the ASI video demonstrates that the arms pushaway after impact just like they do in the takeaway.

I know too much tension is a factor but my arms after impact seems out of sync and dragged way inside from my pivot in an attempt to get power.
[/quote]

Super-Connection is NOT something that you "do" - it is something that happens as the effect of not throwing the arms across mid-line, and inertia pressing them against the pecs from pivot rotation and tilting. But - right after impact, if you are pivoting correctly and have good pivot speed and good Triangle pressures, the arms will move across mid-line and away from your chest. Sounds to me like you are not transferring the basic theory to your actual motion, ie taking it too literally or too "concretely". A symbol is not the same thing as the reality it points to. Swing theory is just a first step towards achieving Deep Insight, that occurs at subconscious mind level, so that you can make a natural feeling, athletic motion.

Momentum from the pivot is acting so strongly on your arms that they are pulled across and outwards, ie again - NOT something that you do, something that happens naturally. But most golfers are trying to actively do something with their arms, or the opposite, ie forcibly trying to tie them to the torso. Both are mistakes. The arm pressures are very tiny in intensity.

Module Three is on the Triangle and the arm pressures, and yes - there are drills for those things.

[ofortuna]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1437629611' post='12004468']
[quote name='ofortuna' timestamp='1437628078' post='12004418']
Are there any drills for pushing away the arms on the post impact part of the swing? When I think of super connection into impact with the pivot powering the swing, I get locked up in the followthrough and spin out. The V drill on the ASI video demonstrates that the arms pushaway after impact just like they do in the takeaway.

I know too much tension is a factor but my arms after impact seems out of sync and dragged way inside from my pivot in an attempt to get power.
[/quote]

Super-Connection is NOT something that you "do" - it is something that happens as the effect of not throwing the arms across mid-line, and inertia pressing them against the pecs from pivot rotation and tilting. But - right after impact, if you are pivoting correctly and have good pivot speed and good Triangle pressures, the arms will move across mid-line and away from your chest. Sounds to me like you are not transferring the basic theory to your actual motion, ie taking it too literally or too "concretely". A symbol is not the same thing as the reality it points to. Swing theory is just a first step towards achieving Deep Insight, that occurs at subconscious mind level, so that you can make a natural feeling, athletic motion.

Momentum from the pivot is acting so strongly on your arms that they are pulled across and outwards, ie again - NOT something that you do, something that happens naturally. But most golfers are trying to actively do something with their arms, or the opposite, ie forcibly trying to tie them to the torso. Both are mistakes. The arm pressures are very tiny in intensity.

Module Three is on the Triangle and the arm pressures, and yes - there are drills for those things.
[/quote]

Hi Jim, thanks for outlining those distinctions. Although I used your nomenclature such as Super Connection, it's not something I am doing with intent as a result of your instruction. I've had those habits from way back. After viewing your V drill from the module two video, I was thinking that as a result of tension around impact, I may not be allowing my arms to fly away from my body as I should.

I feel that I more closely resemble the swing that you said nobody has, where there is no lift of the arms and just a pivot back and through.

One thing that is extremely alien to me and I keep forgetting to do is having that arm pressure trying to keep the right arm straight throughout the swing. Need to work on that. When's module three due?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='ofortuna' timestamp='1437631851' post='12004532']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1437629611' post='12004468']
[quote name='ofortuna' timestamp='1437628078' post='12004418']
Are there any drills for pushing away the arms on the post impact part of the swing? When I think of super connection into impact with the pivot powering the swing, I get locked up in the followthrough and spin out. The V drill on the ASI video demonstrates that the arms pushaway after impact just like they do in the takeaway.

I know too much tension is a factor but my arms after impact seems out of sync and dragged way inside from my pivot in an attempt to get power.
[/quote]

Super-Connection is NOT something that you "do" - it is something that happens as the effect of not throwing the arms across mid-line, and inertia pressing them against the pecs from pivot rotation and tilting. But - right after impact, if you are pivoting correctly and have good pivot speed and good Triangle pressures, the arms will move across mid-line and away from your chest. Sounds to me like you are not transferring the basic theory to your actual motion, ie taking it too literally or too "concretely". A symbol is not the same thing as the reality it points to. Swing theory is just a first step towards achieving Deep Insight, that occurs at subconscious mind level, so that you can make a natural feeling, athletic motion.

Momentum from the pivot is acting so strongly on your arms that they are pulled across and outwards, ie again - NOT something that you do, something that happens naturally. But most golfers are trying to actively do something with their arms, or the opposite, ie forcibly trying to tie them to the torso. Both are mistakes. The arm pressures are very tiny in intensity.

Module Three is on the Triangle and the arm pressures, and yes - there are drills for those things.
[/quote]

Hi Jim, thanks for outlining those distinctions. Although I used your nomenclature such as Super Connection, it's not something I am doing with intent as a result of your instruction. I've had those habits from way back. After viewing your V drill from the module two video, I was thinking that as a result of tension around impact, I may not be allowing my arms to fly away from my body as I should.

I feel that I more closely resemble the swing that you said nobody has, where there is no lift of the arms and just a pivot back and through.

One thing that is extremely alien to me and I keep forgetting to do is having that arm pressure trying to keep the right arm straight throughout the swing. Need to work on that. When's module three due?
[/quote]

Sounds like you took the idea of a pivot-driven swing to the illogical extreme - not too unusual really. The golf swing is a blend of arm motion, wrist motion, right arm motion at the elbow, and pivot motion. You need all of those things to swing well. Steering Impulse may also be your issue. I worked all day yesterday with a new student from Canada who had a severe steering impulse. His neck, shoulder girdle, upper arms, forearms, wrists and finger muscles would lock up with massive tension as soon as he started his downswing. He could not get much beyond a 3/4 Finish as a result.

Module 3 taping is 75% done - likely will be for sale around end of August.

[ofortuna]

I think I may be too impact focused and forgetting that the arms fly off the chest and release a microsecond after impact. I hope you were able to help that Canadian student out. Swinging with that much tension over time must wreak havoc on his body.

Jim, what do you think about feedback tools like skypro that attaches to your club? I'm usually practicing alone so it's difficult for me to take video of my swing and I need to know if I'm doing what I think I'm doing.

[flopshot99]

Why am I not able to purchase the new video

[flopshot99]

Keep posts from you Jim on each video..very much appreciated

[flopshot99]

Dl second video and content is super

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='ofortuna' timestamp='1437774368' post='12014632']
I think I may be too impact focused and forgetting that the arms fly off the chest and release a microsecond after impact. I hope you were able to help that Canadian student out. Swinging with that much tension over time must wreak havoc on his body.

Jim, what do you think about feedback tools like skypro that attaches to your club? I'm usually practicing alone so it's difficult for me to take video of my swing and I need to know if I'm doing what I think I'm doing.
[/quote]

Yes - that student experienced significant improvement in the afternoon session. It takes an understanding of what "correct" is - in this case, the proper muscle tension in those body parts. And then the ability to feel - not think - those body parts so that one can monitor if in fact you are doing it correctly.

Very common to focus too much on impact. In my opinion, ANY focus on impact is too much! Impact happens in the middle of Release and is something that should feel effortless and totally free, a letting go of control over both body and club. Steering Impulse happens because the conscious mind is trying to become MORE in control of body and club, not less.

I have no experience with the aid you mentioned, so cannot comment. But - if it works as advertised, it would be a great tool. You need some form of objective feedback. You need to tape yourself, certainly. I would guess at least 75% of the posts on this forum would cease immediately if folks would just tape themselves to see what their body and club are actually doing. Meaning that most posts are just indulging in golf swing metaphysics, really just speculating and guessing.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='flopshot99' timestamp='1437795100' post='12016342']
Video downloaded..while I'd like the website to be easier to navigate. Jim your Vida are sensational
[/quote]

Thanks! Video download is working fine. Sometimes it takes a few minutes for the Paypal payment to finish processing, and for our host servers to send the confirmation email. And sometimes a buyers spam filter will put our email in the spam folder. So if you dont get an email within 30 minutes of ordering, best to look there for the email.

[flopshot99]

Thanks jim..keep vids coming

[Sef]

This is something I am working on as well. When I first started the swing looked a certain way to me and I tried to emulate it, now I understand what really happens is totally different than what appears to happen.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Sef' timestamp='1438035576' post='12029996']
This is something I am working on as well. When I first started the swing looked a certain way to me and I tried to emulate it, now I understand what really happens is totally different than what appears to happen.
[/quote]

Yes - the swing is shrouded in 2D Illusions. Most are optical, a few have to do with how you sense time passing, and a few are Feel-based. 32 in total.

The reason why being able to understand and see through the arm swing illusion especially is so important is that it immediately gives your body the chance to begin to move in a much more efficient manner, closer to how a tour pro does it.

[fmzip]

Jim,

In regards to chip shots, do the arms move up at a 45 as described in the video? I was just reading Stan Utley's book and his approach to chips/pitch shots

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='fmzip' timestamp='1438047965' post='12031452']
Jim,

In regards to chip shots, do the arms move up at a 45 as described in the video? I was just reading Stan Utley's book and his approach to chips/pitch shots
[/quote]

No - short and medium chips the arms are stationary on the chest, a tiny arm pushaway on longer chips where shaft gets to parallel to the ground at waist high.

[fmzip]

Thanks Jim,

That's exactly what I was working on

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='fmzip' timestamp='1438048416' post='12031520']
Thanks Jim,

That's exactly what I was working on
[/quote]

I am a huge fan of the traditional chip and run shot, and consider it the foundation of all the short game shots. Mainly because it is way less complex, but has all the essential features except one - wrist c0cking. Which is why it is simpler than the other short game shots. And doing it well has a huge influence on your scores, especially if you shoot 90 or higher.

[fmzip]

I couldn't agree more in regards to the scores!

I've played just three rounds this year and no others over the past 8 years. Shot 89, 93, 92 and I was pathetic around the greens, must have wasted at least 10+ shots each round, thin, fat, a little chili!

Last hole of my my recent round, perfect drive, 58 yards in, walked away with a triple. Had several holes just like that!

Decided to work not only on the full swing changes, bought a 15x3 foot putting green and a chipping matt from Pro Putt and put it in my garage. Car is parked outside until further notice

[GoStars]

After reading almost the entirety of this thread over a few months (as well as some others), I purchased the video (Module 2: Arm Swing Illusion). The video definitely makes the concepts easier to understand, and my takeaway feels so good now. I can't wait to get to a range and work on everything!

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='GoStars' timestamp='1438193823' post='12042558']
After reading almost the entirety of this thread over a few months (as well as some others), I purchased the video (Module 2: Arm Swing Illusion). The video definitely makes the concepts easier to understand, and my takeaway feels so good now. I can't wait to get to a range and work on everything!
[/quote]

Good to hear the ASI video is helping you. I agree - the video provides much more information and clarity than this thread could ever do all by itself. As I have said before, of the many wrx members who have come to see me for in person instruction, every single one of them told me at the start of the golf school that they "totally got" the ASI concept, and by the end of the school, every single one of them told me that their original understanding of the ASI was "way, way off".

Don't forget to do the home practice first before taking it to the range, ie the slow motion mirror work and the non-ballstriking drills that allow you to de-construct the Illusion from your subconscious mind Swing Map. And tape yourself on the range to see if you are actually doing the drills correctly. It is very easy to fool yourself into conflating the mental intention to keep your right arm in front of the right side of your chest in the waiter's tray position, for example, with actually doing so. The impulse to pull in and around with that upper right arm is very strong.

[Jim Waldron]

I promised a longer post about the benefits of viewing the new Arm Swing Illusion video, so here goes. I think it is the best instruction product that I have ever done, and I think the one video that will benefit literally every golfer, no matter their experience or skill level. While there are no "magic moves" to better ballstriking, there is something equivalent to a "magic insight" and that is what watching this video offers, a way to see the golf swing in a truly new light, the chance to break free of 2D Illusions and to begin to see the golf swing - both body and club motion - in true three-dimensional terms. It is the closest thing to actually travelling to Portland or Hawaii and working with me in person on your golf swing, using the ASI as the starting point. This is truly ground-breaking information that will radically change your understanding of the golf swing.

When your "light bulb" goes off while watching this video, you will immediately be able to understand why you have struggled, perhaps for years and with no real improvement, with issues such as over the top, inside takeaway, being "stuck", "arm runoff" at the Top, early release, arm disconnection during release, body outracing the arms or arms outracing the body on the forward swing, poor release timing, a weak "armsy" swing motion, popping up out of your Spine Angle, a too steep shaft plane, hitting the ball thin or fat, and many other common swing flaws.

First, some feedback from folks who bought and viewed the ASI video.

[size=4]"Great instruction. Wish I would have come across this years ago. I'm excited that my kids are just taking up the game though and I can pass this along. I literally have in excess of 150 golf books and have never seen the information you provided." [/size]

[size=4]"I'm about 30 minutes into the Module 2 video and am really enjoying it. It's mind blowing stuff. I've just been working on the takeaway in front of the mirror and definitely have a much better appreciation for what I should be doing having seen again on video. Seems like such a simple movement too and it gets me in the right position every time... just having struggled for so long with a horrible inside takeaway it's crazy to think the movement my arms should be making is so far removed from what (I was) doing incorrectly for so many years. Anyway, thanks again. I think these videos are going to be great for me." [/size]

[color=#282828]"I am really finding the Arm Swing Illusion Video to be enlightening. I am up to the point of the drills, the waiter tray one is very good as it really gives me instant feedback on that right arm wandering "mysteriously" on its own. The shaped drill is exactly what I need to learn to hit consistent crisp wedges. [/color][color=#282828]Good work on the video, it was definitely worth the wait Just simply a quick watch this morning with the arms pushing out while rotating gave me enough of a visual to reinforces what I already read in this thread. Took it to the range today and hit some pure iron irons with the least amount of wasted motion I've ever felt in a golf swing. If you in fact struggle with getting your arms to do the right thing regardless of what you've tried, Jim's video really focuses specifically on elements that I haven't seen anywhere. I've watched every Leadbetter and Mclean video back in the day, read countless books and watched tons of youtube video, not one spent enough time on the arm mechanics like this. " fmzip, wrx member [/color]


[color=#282828]The Arm Swing Illusion Module 2 in the Great Shot! series on Mastering the Craft of Ballstriking is available as a download from our website here: [/color][url="http://www.balancepointgolf.com/index.php/pro-shop/golf-videos"]http://www.balancepo...hop/golf-videos[/url]. Two hours and 38 minutes of viewing time.


[color=#282828]Here is a basic introduction to ASI video content. [/color]
The video starts with a basic introduction and demonstration of the ASI concept, and why it is so destructive to good golf. The next segment covers that basic theory in depth. Then we have a segment on non-ballstriking drills that you can do at home that will de-construct the Illusion from your subconscious mind, and a segment on drills you can do on the range while hitting balls.

[size=4][color=#383838]The Arm Swing Illusion video will teach you how the arms really work in the modern tour pro golf swing and why your current arm motion may be hampering your improvement. It explains why what you think you see a tour pro doing is not what is really happening.[/color]

[color=#383838]You will learn how to: stop taking the club away inside the proper plane; blend your pivot motion with your arm pushaway; stop "getting stuck" with the arms behind your body, once and for all; see the swing in true three dimensional space; hit the ball further, straighter and more solidly than you ever thought possible; see through the conflicting information and see the missing link in traditional golf instruction; keep your club in front of your body and what in front really means; and improve your downswing where the illusion is most destructive.[/color]

[color=#383838]You will discover the relating illusions that make it harder to learn how to swing the golf club than it needs to be. See the drills, clearly explained and demonstrated, that will correct your flaws and have you striking the ball better than you ever have before.[/color]

[color=#383838]De-constructing the arm swing illusion allows you to remove a major source of the frustration and failure that inevitably happens when the illusion is operative in your mind.[/color]

[color=#383838]You need "space" to swing a golf club well - space between your arms and body, especially on the forward swing and through impact, so that your arms/club assembly can move at a high rate of speed and so that you can Release freely. When the Illusion is operative in your mind, you will end up "stuck" and lacking that necessary space. Over the top and early release are two very common swing flaws that mid to high handicappers suffer from. Both are directly caused by the Illusion.[/color]

[color=#383838]I have taught the ASI concept full-time in my golf schools and private lesson programs since 1997, and have witnessed thousands of graduates really breakthrough to much better ballstriking. In terms of swing theory/insight resulting in dramatic and immediate improvement, there is no other swing concept that even comes close.[/color][/size][list]
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[starsail85]

Jim

Would you recommend buying the module to build a perfect backswing?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1438338497' post='12052710']
Jim

Would you recommend buying the module to build a perfect backswing?
[/quote]

The ASI concept applies to all segments of the golf swing, including the backswing.

[Biomateur]

Tell me, why this thread has been pinned ?

[starsail85]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1438348803' post='12053258']
[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1438338497' post='12052710']
Jim

Would you recommend buying the module to build a perfect backswing?
[/quote]

The ASI concept applies to all segments of the golf swing, including the backswing.
[/quote]

Ok I will purchase asap is this available for the foreseeable future ?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1438378106' post='12056288']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1438348803' post='12053258']
[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1438338497' post='12052710']
Jim

Would you recommend buying the module to build a perfect backswing?
[/quote]

The ASI concept applies to all segments of the golf swing, including the backswing.
[/quote]

Ok I will purchase asap is this available for the foreseeable future ?
[/quote]

Yes on the availability. Looks like Module One Part B will be release around August 15, with C and D release dates coming toward the end of the month.

[Jim Waldron]

Had a pretty cool experience on Thursday at the range. I was giving a lesson to a new student, a young female high school golfer, on the arm swing illusion concept. Guy walks over and introduces himself to me, and thanks me for doing the ASI video, told me he had been struggling for years with inside takeaway, over the top, and a weak, armsy swing, and immediately after viewing the video, started to hit golf shots like he always dreamed he could. Which is always great to hear, as a teacher, makes my day, but the really cool part of it was that my young student of course heard the whole conversation, which was good timing, because she was clearly struggling with understanding the concept (although it was only about ten minutes into the lesson so perfectly understandable). Hearing that guys story made an immediate impression on her mind, and helped her to be more open for the rest of the lesson.

Making the switch from 2D thinking to 3D thinking about the golf swing is a radical shift in perspective.

[flopshot99]

Vids are great jim..keep them coming

[jay au]

Hi Jim, love both videos.

I normally have a shoulder turn too flat on the way back and drag inside so it has been great to feel like I have more room. I noticed my shoulder has now been working a bit lower which is great.

I am having problems with slicing across the ball though, while I attempting the swing from the video. Seems to go away a bit when I shut face on way back but I am sure that is not a good habit.

Any suggestions for common reasons why someone might be swing left with face open I guess?

[MMB1500]

I have both videos and am very much enjoying them. I highly recommend them to anyone thinking of ordering.

This thread has been enlightening to say the least, but seeing Jim demonstrate some of the concepts discussed at length here has helped me no end. I've been doing lots of repetition and mirror work and I really think it's starting to pay off. I have always struggled with a flat backswing and chronic arm overrun (that's what happens when you are trying to swing your arms from side to side). To put it another way, I was a total victim of the illusion! Using the push away and ASI concepts, my backswing is suddenly much shorter, more compact and 'on plane'.

A bigger change in feel though has been on the downswing. Again, I've always had a big lateral arm motion and consequent problems with inconsistent contact, flipping, EE etc. Feeling like my arms work down my chest, at the same time as my torso and shoulder girdle rotates is [i]light years[/i] from what I was doing. I now properly understand why I flipped and EE'd for years and why I could never maintain a bent right wrist at impact. I like the woodchopping drill for helping ingrain this motion.

I'm a long way from mastering either the back or downswings, but feel like I now have a radically improved intellectual understanding of what I should be doing.

Jim, quick question and apologies if this has been discussed earlier in the thread. It seems to me, your ideas are quite unique in the golf instruction industry. Why is it we never hear these ideas from other instructors? Also, without naming names, have you ever experienced any 'resistance' to your ideas from fellow professionals?