The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy

[mikah]

Of course you are right that there are no how to's to get into the zone. There are however some tips on how not to, the Inner Game books provide usefull insight in keeping the ego ( really anything other than the subconscious) engaged and none interfering.




Engaging/distracting the ego isn’t going to engage the subconscious.

We engage the subconscious directly.
Since we can only have one thought at any one time.
If we engage the subconscious there is no concern about other conscious thoughts, emotions.

We drive our cars with our subconscious, autonominously. We can engage in conversation, feel emotions, relive events while driving without it distracting driving.

Ever wonder why back seat drivers bug you so much?
Back seat drivers are causing you to consciously think about what and how you are driving. Cant drive that way.

Cant swing a golf club successfully that way either.
How many, how to books do we need to learn to drive subconsciously?

Ever drive on a long trip and when you reach your destination wonder where the time went, and what happened during all that time?
Isn’t that similar to what Sally Gunnell said after she crossed the finish line. ‘as if her life started again’

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Millbrook' timestamp='1417621163' post='10536169']
Of course you are right that there are no how to's to get into the zone. There are however some tips on how not to, the Inner Game books provide usefull insight in keeping the ego ( really anything other than the subconscious) engaged and none interfering.
[/quote]

Well said! Often knowing what NOT to do is equally as effective as what one "should do". Choosing to NOT go down a certain path is one of the keys to success in any endeavor.

Not a matter of simple "how to do it" instructions, ever, in any part of the game. That again is the fallacy of "either/or" thinking, and that fallacy is present in probably 90% of the threads on the golf forums. Most things lie somewhere on a continuum.

I have been teaching my students, in two different mental game golf schools and in private lessons, for over 20 years, on the ins and outs of peak performance in golf, the Zone being at the far end of that continuum. When you take a golfer with zero understanding of the mental game - the opposite end of the spectrum from the Zone - and move him half way to the Zone, he or she is going to see a ton of improvement.

Getting close to the actual Zone requires a deep understanding of how the human mind works, on both conscious and subconscious levels, and what factors create a "self-sabotaging" effect, how to identify them in your mind/body/emotions, and how to move beyond them. I use a variety of techniques to accomplish this, from Buddhist meditation and mindfulness techniques, to Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, NLP and other "brief therapy" modalities, body awareness training, etc.

In the Big Picture, it is really all about increasing Awareness - of mind, body, and emotions.

[Mcaesq]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1417537544' post='10530941']
Tiger talked about it a few years ago when he admitted that he was struggling with being "ball-bound". When you are "ball-bound" - (or "bound" in any way!) your mind cares too much about success and/or failure.

Micah - you need to expand your understanding of the game. Total beginners with NO instruction whatsoever struggle with trying too hard. Please stop laying the blame at "instruction". Yes - teaching folks to consciously try to control the body is a big mistake, but not even remotely the ONLY reason why folks struggle with golf.

[/quote]

Both of these points are huge. You really want to avoid feeling that you have to swing differently because there's a ball in front of you. I like to think that the ball is irrelevant; it's just something that I happen to hit as I'm performing my swing. Same thing with what the result is. I care about whether I make good swings, not whether it ends up being a good shot (obviously, however, I'd like both).

The proof for me is when you have a super brutal shot and you're just trying to not put yourself in a worse position. Know what I'm talking about? Those shots where you just kinda eyeball it, do a quick pre shot routine, then hit the ball? At least for me, those usually end up being my best swings and, therefore, produce the best shots. The ones that get me are when I spend too much time thinking about where the ball is going to go rather than how I'm going to swing.

As for the second point, steering the club is death. That's why "analysis leads to paralysis" is a cliche and most better players want a [i]feeling[/i] during their swing rather than focus on some mechanical act. Talk to a bad amateur and they'll say that they're really focusing on getting their left wrist pronated at P1.298 then lifting the club up to 3 degrees short of parallel to the ground. Talk to a good amateur or pro and they'll tell you that they want to feel themselves finish in a balanced position or feel stable on their backswing or whatever. (Obviously, you can work on mechanical things out on the range but that doesn't mean you should bring those thoughts out on the course).

When I play really well, I don't think about anything more concrete than "bracing against my right side" or "unwinding from my core."

If you end up focusing on mechanical actions during your swing, you're gonna look like you have the yips. What are the yips but mentally trying to direct the ball and being overly results oriented? http://m.mlb.com/news/article/47124896/the-yips-difficult-to-understand-difficult-to-cure

[mikah]

[color=#282828]Talk to a good amateur or pro and they'll tell you that they want to feel themselves finish in a balanced position or feel stable on their backswing or whatever. (Obviously, you can work on mechanical things out on the range but that doesn't mean you should bring those thoughts out on the course).[/color]



[color=#282828]Another way to activate our subconscious.[/color]

[color=#282828]Balance is key to our survival as a species. its subconscious, involuntary and balance is maintained whether we like it or not.[/color]
[color=#282828]When our intent/focus is on balance, we activate our subconscious.[/color]

[color=#282828]If our balance is threatened at any time during our swing, balance trumps golf swing muscles.[/color]

"Do nothing at the cost of Balance" .....George Knudson.

[North Texas]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1417483576' post='10528167']
[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1417482523' post='10528055']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1417480222' post='10527807']
[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1417478559' post='10527643']
Hogan talked about not "adding yourself" to the shot, but rather "removing yourself". It means achieving a state of "not caring" about the outcome so much, or emotional detachment



Lydia cares. Shes trying to make those putts, even on golf channel. Watch her body language when she misses.

When shes playing, she says until the last moment, even I don’t know whats going on, referring to whether its going to be left hand low or conventional grip.

8:56 Lydia said, “until the last moment I don’t know whats going on”.

Ie she has taken herself out of the process. Its unconscious and that is how it is... she ‘removes herself’ She removes her conscious self.....kudos to her coach, Guy Wilson, from 8 years of age.
He obviously didn’t create unnecessary, erroneous ‘reasonability standards’
[/quote]

I think she is caring after the miss or make - not during the stroke. In fact, I was watching her last week and noticing how she really has mastered the "art of not caring" and how free she is when executing, and it wasn't just me, Judy Rankin said exactly the same thing about her, and in her opinion, that accepting, detached from the outcome attitude of Lydia's was her "greatest strength" as a player.
[/quote]


We can disagree. When asked Lydia confesses to being nervous, although it doesnt show.

She appears detached; like MJ used to be detached/ cool.
IMO, its letting the unconscious take over from the conscious /ego.

There is caring, wanting, desire but very little trying. There is a difference in not trying and not caring, IMO.

Discipline to care, but know how to channel that desire and allow the unconscious to perform.

If you told Lydia the reason she performed was because she didnt care about the outcome, she would laugh.
[/quote]

I have spoken with many tour pros over the years, and studied and taught martial arts as well. I can assure you that they do "care" but not in the act of execution. There is a long history of this concept in the Asian martial arts tradition that you can read about, if you care to. It is quite well known in that tradition. Bob Rotella has also written extensively about this in golf. You can care all you want to in between shots, but not when executing. People try too hard precisely because they care too much about the outcome while in the act of executing.

I have taught a one day mental game "boot camp" called Rip It to the Target since 1995, with several thousand graduates. i have hundreds of letters and emails from them describing their results from taking the school. The concept of "not caring" while executing is at the top of the list.
[/quote]

Fascinating stuff.

Interestingly enough, I have played some of best golf when I just got up there and hit the ball and didn't really worry about or care where it was going.

Would give anything to be able to attend one of your Rip It to the Target boot camps. Understanding that you derive revenue from these camps I wouldn't expect you to tell us everything that you teach in them. But is there anything in a general nature that you might could or would share about it. Thanks.

[Atrayn]

For many, "do nothing" can sometimes have adverse consequences.

For example, I only take enough practice swings to feel the shot I'm trying to hit. When I'm in a groove, sometimes I don't take any. Most of the time it's only one. Even then, it's more of a "finish feel". If I'm hitting a fade, I finish slightly different than when I'm hitting a draw. Those feelings have been ingrained over time. Obviously muscles technically don't have memory but motor patterns are ingrained and felt.

I just recently worked with a beginner on the pre-shot routine. I see it all the time. The golfer takes a a few crappy iron swings and then hits. Most of the time it results in a poor shot and tops it.

I then have them execute an "intended" practice swing where they are actually contacting the turf in a spot in front of the ball. It's amazing how much better the next shot is. I feel that the feedback of the turf impact is crucial to the senses and sensory feedback to recall the correct motor pattern. I really feel that this sets you up to then put the swing on auto-pilot.

[Jim Waldron]

Hi North Texas -

The main idea is to understand what a flinch is, and the many causes of a flinch. How wrong use of the conscious mind creates the flinch, so how to "flinch-proof" your golf swing, putting and short game strokes. Overcoming the Hit, Steering, Scooping and Impact Help Out Impulses is another big part of it. How being Ball-Bound activates those Impulses. How to ignore the ball and swing with real freedom. We also do drills to switch off the thinking mind and switch on the athletic, react to the target mind, many of which are "rapid fire" drills where you hit about 30 balls in a row, on average about one ball every 4-5 seconds.

Basically it is a golf school about mental focus and how to overcome a wandering mind, and learn where to focus and where not to....

[mikah]

[quote name='Atrayn' timestamp='1417643337' post='10538435']
For many, "do nothing" can sometimes have adverse consequences.

For example, I only take enough practice swings to feel the shot I'm trying to hit. When I'm in a groove, sometimes I don't take any. Most of the time it's only one. Even then, it's more of a "finish feel". If I'm hitting a fade, I finish slightly different than when I'm hitting a draw. Those feelings have been ingrained over time. Obviously muscles technically don't have memory but motor patterns are ingrained and felt.

I just recently worked with a beginner on the pre-shot routine. I see it all the time. The golfer takes a a few crappy iron swings and then hits. Most of the time it results in a poor shot and tops it.

I then have them execute an "intended" practice swing where they are actually contacting the turf in a spot in front of the ball. It's amazing how much better the next shot is. I feel that the feedback of the turf impact is crucial to the senses and sensory feedback to recall the correct motor pattern. I really feel that this sets you up to then put the swing on auto-pilot.
[/quote]

Atryan,
Your experience confirms what Dr Gabriele Wulf discovered in her research:


[color=#000000][size=3]author Gabriele Wulf argues that the learning of new motor skills suffers when attentional focus is on the coordination of movements. When attention is directed to the desired movement effect, however, performance levels rise.[/size][/color]


[url="http://www.humankinetics.com/products/all-products/attention-and-motor-skill-learning"]http://www.humankinetics.com/products/all-products/attention-and-motor-skill-learning[/url]

[rteach1]

I have read Dr. Wulf's book and have mentioned her research in several threads over the last year or so. I admire her work, but don't know if her advocacy of the superiority of an external focus is in the same vein as what Jim has been talking about in his recent posts. i.e. the role of the unconscious. I think that Jim might describe Dr. Wulf's work as impacting a different "channel," so we might be talking apples and oranges here.

Nevertheless, I am not criticizing your post. I welcome any reference to Dr. Wulf. Jim, are you familiar with her work, and, if so, what is your view of it?

rteach1

[rteach1]

Jim,

I have a couple of separate questions. Will your new material cover how to deal with the scoop, help out and hit impulses? If not, what would be the best material to order that covers these destructive impulses, all of which are the bane of my golf game? Finally, what is your best estimate as to when your new material will be available to purchase? Thank you.

rteach1

P.S.- Am I correct in my assumption that the scoop and help out impulses are likely to lead to falling back at impact?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='rteach1' timestamp='1417646546' post='10538773']
I have read Dr. Wulf's book and have mentioned her research in several threads over the last year or so. I admire her work, but don't know if her advocacy of the superiority of an external focus is in the same vein as what Jim has been talking about in his recent posts. i.e. the role of the unconscious. I think that Jim might describe Dr. Wulf's work as impacting a different "channel," so we might be talking apples and oranges here.

Nevertheless, I am not criticizing your post. I welcome any reference to Dr. Wulf. Jim, are you familiar with her work, and, if so, what is your view of it?

rteach1
[/quote]

Yes - I have read a bit about her concepts. I think where the study conclusions fall short is that it does not distinguish between focusing on the body movement patterns from first person perspective in feel channel, vs second or third person perspective in auditory or visual channels. The latter is very destructive to a good golf swing since it creates an interference between subconscious commands to the body, and some form of a flinch. The first option can indeed work well, and many tournaments have been by pros using that method. There is distinct difference in those two states of consciousness. One strengthens the brain-mind/body connection, and one weakens it. Of course most golfer's default consciousness is precisely this visual/auditory conscious effort to "force" a body part to do something it does not want to do. Simply by not engaging in that destructive pattern - what I call "contamination" - creates a better swing and outcome.

When you divide your mind into two parts - the "good" inner golf teacher and the "bad" golf student - that is second or third person perspective. Peak performance in any sport requires a first person perspective to perform well. The only exception to that rule is for an already gifted/skilled athlete who suffers from some sort of anxiety disorder, and then at the conscious mind level there a few dissociative techniques that can work to dampen down the anxiety, and allow the subconscious to do it's job.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='rteach1' timestamp='1417647105' post='10538819']
Jim,

I have a couple of separate questions. Will your new material cover how to deal with the scoop, help out and hit impulses? If not, what would be the best material to order that covers these destructive impulses, all of which are the bane of my golf game? Finally, what is your best estimate as to when your new material will be available to purchase? Thank you.

rteach1

P.S.- Am I correct in my assumption that the scoop and help out impulses are likely to lead to falling back at impact?
[/quote]

Yes - the scoop impulse especially is the main cause of the body moving away from the target. Impact impulse has several aspects, but most common is a sudden increase of grip and arm pressure during Release.

The new video program we are currently shooting/editing is the Great Shot! ballstriking-golf swing fundamentals program, which we hope to have finished as a download by early next summer, although the first two of those five modules are nearly complete and will be available separately very soon.

The Impulses you asked about are part of our mental game training program and that one will be shot next summer in Portland, likely not complete until this time next year.

[mikah]

[quote name='rteach1' timestamp='1417646546' post='10538773']
I have read Dr. Wulf's book and have mentioned her research in several threads over the last year or so. I admire her work, but don't know if her advocacy of the superiority of an external focus is in the same vein as what Jim has been talking about in his recent posts. i.e. the role of the unconscious. I think that Jim might describe Dr. Wulf's work as impacting a different "channel," so we might be talking apples and oranges here.

Nevertheless, I am not criticizing your post. I welcome any reference to Dr. Wulf. Jim, are you familiar with her work, and, if so, what is your view of it?

rteach1
[/quote]

I had forgotten who it was who brought Dr Wulf's work to our attention.

I think you and I agree the external thinking that Dr Wulf found to be most effective related to clear focus on the effect.
eg Atrayan's student clipping the grass ahead of the ball position

or clubface impacting the inside quadrant of the ball
or sliding the sole of the club under the ball.

as opposed to focus on co ordination of body parts.

ie given the appropriate external intent the unconscious can work out the body movement and balance, just fine, thank you.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Mcaesq' timestamp='1417634508' post='10537461']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1417537544' post='10530941']
Tiger talked about it a few years ago when he admitted that he was struggling with being "ball-bound". When you are "ball-bound" - (or "bound" in any way!) your mind cares too much about success and/or failure.

Micah - you need to expand your understanding of the game. Total beginners with NO instruction whatsoever struggle with trying too hard. Please stop laying the blame at "instruction". Yes - teaching folks to consciously try to control the body is a big mistake, but not even remotely the ONLY reason why folks struggle with golf.

[/quote]

Both of these points are huge. You really want to avoid feeling that you have to swing differently because there's a ball in front of you. I like to think that the ball is irrelevant; it's just something that I happen to hit as I'm performing my swing. Same thing with what the result is. I care about whether I make good swings, not whether it ends up being a good shot (obviously, however, I'd like both).

The proof for me is when you have a super brutal shot and you're just trying to not put yourself in a worse position. Know what I'm talking about? Those shots where you just kinda eyeball it, do a quick pre shot routine, then hit the ball? At least for me, those usually end up being my best swings and, therefore, produce the best shots. The ones that get me are when I spend too much time thinking about where the ball is going to go rather than how I'm going to swing.

As for the second point, steering the club is death. That's why "analysis leads to paralysis" is a cliche and most better players want a [i]feeling[/i] during their swing rather than focus on some mechanical act. Talk to a bad amateur and they'll say that they're really focusing on getting their left wrist pronated at P1.298 then lifting the club up to 3 degrees short of parallel to the ground. Talk to a good amateur or pro and they'll tell you that they want to feel themselves finish in a balanced position or feel stable on their backswing or whatever. (Obviously, you can work on mechanical things out on the range but that doesn't mean you should bring those thoughts out on the course).

When I play really well, I don't think about anything more concrete than "bracing against my right side" or "unwinding from my core."

If you end up focusing on mechanical actions during your swing, you're gonna look like you have the yips. What are the yips but mentally trying to direct the ball and being overly results oriented? [url="http://m.mlb.com/news/article/47124896/the-yips-difficult-to-understand-difficult-to-cure"]http://m.mlb.com/new...fficult-to-cure[/url]
[/quote]

You stated it very well. Probably 95% of my new students suffer from exactly this issue of "contamination" or trying to consciously control their body parts that are moving at high rates of speed in very short time intervals, which by definition means that ONLY the subconscious part of the brain has that capacity. Some folks will indeed eventually end up with the yips who go down that road long enough.

I have used two simple "convincer" drills over the years to demonstrate this point. The first is simply to untie one's shoe laces, then tie them while looking up at me, not looking at your shoes/laces at all. Most students can do this very quickly and easily in a few seconds. Next I ask them to try the same exercise, but this time they do get to look at their laces, BUT they must reverse the sequence they normally use to tie the laces. So if they make a loop with the left hand lace, they need to make the loop with the right hand lace instead. Every single step of the lace tying sequence they must do the opposite of their normal procedure. The result is very interesting, since they really fumble and it takes a long time to finish. I then ask them if they can recall their very first "shoe tying" lesson from their parents. which many can, and it always resembles the "reverse" procedure, ie hard to coordinate.

And of course the reason is that when you have an established dominant habit, it takes zero "monitoring" from the conscious mind. Your body "knows" how to do it.

The second drill I have the students hold both arms out at face height in front of them. I ask them to make a square shape about 12" on each side using their index finger as a pointer, and at very slow motion. They all can easily make a perfect square in slow motion. Then I ask them to move at a very fast speed, and try to make that same precision square shape. None can, the square shape is not even close to being achieved. The last step is to ask them to make a square with one hand and a circle with the other. This is very hard, since it requires independent coordination of each side of the body, more "brain power" so to speak. Two squares is fairly easy if done slowly, but a circle and a square is hard even in slow mo. At full speed, it is really hard!

But imagine if you practiced this drill everyday for a just a few minutes, starting in slow mo and gradually building up speed, in a few weeks you could do it with precision at a very fast speed. And that is what the whole journey to better ballstriking is all about. Making incremental gains on a daily basis in a new movement pattern, from slow speeds to fast speeds, building in precision with practice.

The problem with golf is that the swing motion is most certainly NOT "natural" - quite the contrary. A good swing is not innate, ie no part of the human genome has a spot on it labeled "golf swing". It is a learned behavior, you have to go through that process of acquiring information and then programming the subconcsious with that information to eventually the level of dominant habit.

[rteach1]

Jim,

PM sent.

rteach1

[divot tool]

[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1417543780' post='10531541']
[b]Yes - teaching folks to consciously try to control the body is a big mistake, but not even remotely the ONLY reason why folks struggle with golf. [/b]


IMO, teaching folks to consciously try to control the body is The Biggest mistake when teaching people the golf swing.
....for sure, the game of golf is a complicated game with many nuances to learn.

Golf swing on the other hand is straight forward... Give up control to gain control... [size=1]of the golf swing[/size].
[/quote]

I completely agree. However, the '[i][b]concept[/b][/i]' of this 81 page thread is not about conscious body control. . .if you believe that it is, I think you have clearly missed the point.

'Give up control to gain control' was made popular in golf sports pyschology by Rotella, its origin is insignificant.

[divot tool]

[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1417628834' post='10536865']
Of course you are right that there are no how to's to get into the zone. There are however some tips on how not to, the Inner Game books provide usefull insight in keeping the ego ( really anything other than the subconscious) engaged and none interfering.




Engaging/distracting the ego isn’t going to engage the subconscious.

We engage the subconscious directly.
Since we can only have one thought at any one time.
If we engage the subconscious there is no concern about other conscious thoughts, emotions.

We drive our cars with our subconscious, autonominously. We can engage in conversation, feel emotions, relive events while driving without it distracting driving.

Ever wonder why back seat drivers bug you so much?
Back seat drivers are causing you to consciously think about what and how you are driving. Cant drive that way.

Cant swing a golf club successfully that way either.
How many, how to books do we need to learn to drive subconsciously?

Ever drive on a long trip and when you reach your destination wonder where the time went, and what happened during all that time?
Isn’t that similar to what Sally Gunnell said after she crossed the finish line. ‘as if her life started again’
[/quote]

You're comparing a unique and complex motion involving the human body/mind to the act of driving a car? FYI, the car was designed intuitively and refined throughout the years, considering human factors, anthropometrics, ergonomics. etc. in other words. . .designed so that any able bodied person could drive it.


You seem to be believe that the golf swing is a 'natural' ability of humans, that it is uniquely innate?

[mikah]

[quote name='divot tool' timestamp='1417665524' post='10540383']
[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1417628834' post='10536865']
Of course you are right that there are no how to's to get into the zone. There are however some tips on how not to, the Inner Game books provide usefull insight in keeping the ego ( really anything other than the subconscious) engaged and none interfering.




Engaging/distracting the ego isn’t going to engage the subconscious.

We engage the subconscious directly.
Since we can only have one thought at any one time.
If we engage the subconscious there is no concern about other conscious thoughts, emotions.

We drive our cars with our subconscious, autonominously. We can engage in conversation, feel emotions, relive events while driving without it distracting driving.

Ever wonder why back seat drivers bug you so much?
Back seat drivers are causing you to consciously think about what and how you are driving. Cant drive that way.

Cant swing a golf club successfully that way either.
How many, how to books do we need to learn to drive subconsciously?

Ever drive on a long trip and when you reach your destination wonder where the time went, and what happened during all that time?
Isn’t that similar to what Sally Gunnell said after she crossed the finish line. ‘as if her life started again’
[/quote]

You're comparing a unique and complex motion involving the human body/mind to the act of driving a car? FYI, the car was designed intuitively and refined throughout the years, considering human factors, anthropometrics, ergonomics. etc. in other words. . .designed so that any able bodied person could drive it.


You seem to be believe that the golf swing is a 'natural' ability of humans, that it is uniquely innate?
[/quote]


tool,

you seem to have a unique ability to add 1 +1=0?

Humans have a natural innate ability to learn and perform complex movements subconsciously.
One of the most dangerous of those skills, performed subconsciously, is driving a vehicle..


FYI,golf clubs are designed intuitively and refined throughout the years, considering human factors, anthropometrics, ergonomics. etc. in other words. . .designed so that any able bodied person could swing them.

"When the traffic light turns red, conscious goal-directed control circuits will be aware that failure to stop could lead to unfortunate consequences, and that applying the brakes will achieve the desired outcome. Alternatively, habits are characterised in the case of a practiced driver, deeply engaged in conversation with a passenger, where the red stop-light somehow causes the brakes to be applied, while the green go-light sets the car in motion again. If, the driver is asked a few minutes later whether they stopped at the junction, he/she may have no memory of the event. "

[Jim Waldron]

I am going to devote some time on this thread in the coming months to discussing some of the foundational principles of the Balance Point approach to golf improvement. These are very basic Big Picture concepts that have guided my teaching this past 25 years or so. Some of them will be familiar to those members who have had exposure to the Asian martial arts tradition, or to Western psychotherapy, on the "how to learn it" side of things.

Here are a few to chew on.

1. the golf swing is not "natural" or "innate" but instead is a learned behavior, one that happens because the golfer takes in information from an external source (teacher, book, video) and then over time - through effective practice - forms a dominant habit.

2. the ability of the brain-mind to learn complex motor skills is indeed "natural" and "innate".

3. many golfers and some golf teachers conflate #1 and #2.

4. functionally, humans have at least two different modes - conscious behavior and unconcsious behavior (something known for centuries in the East and "discovered" by Sigmund Freud in the West in the early 20th century). A useful analogy for better understanding the golf skills learning process is that you have a "computer" (brain) that has the ability to operate software operating systems (basic belief systems, perceptual "filters" whose job is to judge any new data as either true or false, ally or threat), a "printer" ( your body), a "print out" (your golf swing and thus shot outcome)), application software (beliefs, mental pictures, basic concepts about body and club motion at the subconscious mind level, ie your Swing Map) and a "user" ( your conscious mind).

The question is - does the "user" create the "print out"? Or does the computer hardware (brain) and software (swing map) create that golf swing and shot outcome.

It really boils down to this - how much actual precision control does the conscious mind, especially the cognitive aspect of the conscious mind, ie the part that "thinks" in internal visual images and auditory images (words) have over your body when swinging a golf club?

My premise is that - at normal swing speeds - almost none.

This premise is in total conflict with what is still today the dominant premise of traditional instruction - which is that the golfer does indeed have conscious, precision control over the body motion at normal swing speeds. Hence the many threads here with "advice" about what to do or not to do through effort/intention/thinking while hitting a golf ball.

You can actually look this stuff up now, thanks to Google. One might start with 'reaction time studies".

Part of the reason why that flawed premise is so strong is that a human can indeed consciously hold an "image" in consciousness ( a swing thought, for example) and if that golfer's mind/body connection is strong, ie if they have the ability to program from conscious to subconscious, then the body will respond in a positive way. But - in my experience on the lesson tee, many - probably most - golfers DO NOT have that skill. They have to be coached in how to acquire it. And some golfers - if less than average athletic ability and a weak mind/body connection, will always struggle with learning new body movement patterns.

Which is why I have made many comments on this and other golf forums and in several podcasts that there is a huge "missing link" in modern instruction. Why science-based instruction - the kind we have seen more and more the past decade - is doomed to failure, in spite of the the "correctness" of the information - if they don't include Neuroscience in the mix, the "how to learn it part' which after all is really the most important part in today's world.

More later...

[Reasonability]

Good heavens. This is some deep (and very good) stuff.

Rare - we are hearing about physical motions/mechanics AND the internal mechanisms in the same thread. Wow.

[divot tool]

[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1417698864' post='10541331']
[quote name='divot tool' timestamp='1417665524' post='10540383']
[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1417628834' post='10536865']
Of course you are right that there are no how to's to get into the zone. There are however some tips on how not to, the Inner Game books provide usefull insight in keeping the ego ( really anything other than the subconscious) engaged and none interfering.




Engaging/distracting the ego isn’t going to engage the subconscious.

We engage the subconscious directly.
Since we can only have one thought at any one time.
If we engage the subconscious there is no concern about other conscious thoughts, emotions.

We drive our cars with our subconscious, autonominously. We can engage in conversation, feel emotions, relive events while driving without it distracting driving.

Ever wonder why back seat drivers bug you so much?
Back seat drivers are causing you to consciously think about what and how you are driving. Cant drive that way.

Cant swing a golf club successfully that way either.
How many, how to books do we need to learn to drive subconsciously?

Ever drive on a long trip and when you reach your destination wonder where the time went, and what happened during all that time?
Isn’t that similar to what Sally Gunnell said after she crossed the finish line. ‘as if her life started again’
[/quote]

You're comparing a unique and complex motion involving the human body/mind to the act of driving a car? FYI, the car was designed intuitively and refined throughout the years, considering human factors, anthropometrics, ergonomics. etc. in other words. . .designed so that any able bodied person could drive it.


You seem to be believe that the golf swing is a 'natural' ability of humans, that it is uniquely innate?
[/quote]


tool,

you seem to have a unique ability to add 1 +1=0?

Humans have a natural innate ability to learn and perform complex movements subconsciously.
One of the most dangerous of those skills, performed subconsciously, is driving a vehicle..


FYI,golf clubs are designed intuitively and refined throughout the years, considering human factors, anthropometrics, ergonomics. etc. in other words. . .designed so that any able bodied person could swing them.

"When the traffic light turns red, conscious goal-directed control circuits will be aware that failure to stop could lead to unfortunate consequences, and that applying the brakes will achieve the desired outcome. Alternatively, habits are characterised in the case of a practiced driver, deeply engaged in conversation with a passenger, where the red stop-light somehow causes the brakes to be applied, while the green go-light sets the car in motion again. If, the driver is asked a few minutes later whether they stopped at the junction, he/she may have no memory of the event. "
[/quote]


[color=#282828][size=4]How insightful. . . . .and yet the majority of the golfing public would struggle to legitimately break 100 with [/size][/color][i][b]golf clubs[/b][/i][color=#282828][size=4]. I suppose that speaks volumes about the "intuitiveness" of its design? Again, you may want to rethink that analogy considering their respective complexities or lack thereof. [/size][/color]

[color=#282828][size=4]If the vast majority of the golfing public doesn't understand how to properly strike a golf ball with a [/size][/color][b][i]golf club[/i][/b][color=#282828][size=4] . . .how are they even going to begin to consistently hit quality golf shots, let alone play '[i]subconsciously[/i]' at a high level? [/size][/color]

[color=#282828][size=4]I think Jim and Kiwi have done their best to present the "Arm Swing Illusion" concept as a potential mental map, in which the conscious mind must wholly grasp in order for the subconscious mind to perform.[/size][/color]

[Kiwi2]

[quote name='divot tool' timestamp='1417726762' post='10543895']
[color=#282828][size=4]I think Jim and Kiwi have done their best to present the "Arm Swing Illusion" concept as a potential mental map, in which the conscious mind must wholly grasp in order for the subconscious mind to perform.[/size][/color]
[/quote]

Thanks Divot tool.

Its not easy for people to accept when what they see, two dimensionally, tells them differently.

A lot of people, including a few of those think they already understand the illusion, but unfortunately don't, will finally get it if they see the soon to be released Great Shot! Golf Swing Series, Module 2 Arm Swing Illusion DVD. It is just short of two hours in duration and needed to be that long to be dealt with fully. In it Jim, proves his observation and provides numerous drills to help. A one hour audio will accompany the video to help people understand how to learn and get the subconscious to accept and make habitual something that their conscious mind fights with.

[Michael C.]

Jim,

I hope I can word this correctly so you can understand my premise/question.

I see people try to consciously control their downswing and bad things obviously happen. I understand that is directly getting in the way of the subconscious compensating for swing flaws. However, how does this apply to players who need to control their trajectory for conditions or escape trouble? I know set up and backswing are factors but isn't there conscious thought in the downswing to complete the desired ball flight? I'm not trying to be obtuse. I'm just curious if this is an exception and you're speaking in general terms. Is this the ALMOST NONE in your statement, if you will?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Michael C.' timestamp='1417729544' post='10544221']
Jim,

I hope I can word this correctly so you can understand my premise/question.

I see people try to consciously control their downswing and bad things obviously happen. I understand that is directly getting in the way of the subconscious compensating for swing flaws. However, how does this apply to players who need to control their trajectory for conditions or escape trouble? I know set up and backswing are factors but isn't there conscious thought in the downswing to complete the desired ball flight? I'm not trying to be obtuse. I'm just curious if this is an exception and you're speaking in general terms. Is this the ALMOST NONE in your statement, if you will?
[/quote]

Conscious mind - especially cognitve aspect - operates at too slow a speed to keep up with the body. I was referring to a little bit of conscious control at the very start of the backswing. If you are swinging at the proper tempo, after that point there is no PRECISION conscious control of the body through thinking or effort. There is another kind of control that better players exert, that is from Feel Channel, with a strong mind/body connection. it creates the "illusion" of conscious mind control. Again - just look at the reaction time studies and you will understand. There is a critical difference between a pre-programmed intent to change the downswing, ie intent that is accessed much earlier than the start of the downswing, likely even before the start of backswing, and in the moment "I am going to make my right elbow do X right NOW" kind of intention, which unfortunately is precisely the kind of effort/intention that most mid to high handicap golfers employ.

Everyday I work with new students who during the first part of the lesson, cannot stop doing their Fatal Flaw - no matter how much they intellectually understand how "bad" it is, when it comes to full speed swings, the Flaw continues to manifest. It is only after they more deeply understand the Flaw, and they begin to feel their body motion, that the Flaw starts to go away. That moment of Deep Insight where they truly "get it" - the light bulb moment, is the acceptance by the subconscious mind (SM from here on, CM for conscious mind) of that new understanding. Then training the body directly is much more effective.

[Michael C.]

So, as I said a few pages back, that I once read the SM can make a decision up 6 second before the CM is aware of it. Would you agree then, that preshot routine and visualizing the shot are critical?

[Kiwi2]

[quote name='Michael C.' timestamp='1417729544' post='10544221']
Jim,

I hope I can word this correctly so you can understand my premise/question.

I see people try to consciously control their downswing and bad things obviously happen. I understand that is directly getting in the way of the subconscious compensating for swing flaws. However, how does this apply to players who need to control their trajectory for conditions or escape trouble? I know set up and backswing are factors but isn't there conscious thought in the downswing to complete the desired ball flight? I'm not trying to be obtuse. I'm just curious if this is an exception and you're speaking in general terms. Is this the ALMOST NONE in your statement, if you will?
[/quote]

I am going to answer this to give the perspective from someone who has learned the how from Jim.

However, what I do differs in one respect from what Jim expounds. Once I am ready to pull the trigger I say a non golf related Clearkey to give myself additional insurance that the concious mind has no chance of interfering. Aside from that everything is as per Jim's teaching.

A couple of days ago, he asked me to relate to the forum some real life examples, he is aware of, as to how this happens from my own experience. I reluctantly declined, because I did not want to be subject to attack from the disbelieving naysayers and trolls. And, I am still not going to do it here because, I don't need people saying bs to something that happens on a daily basis, for me, on the golf course.

There is no conscious thought whatsoever during the swing. But the motion doesn't just happen. The subconsious mind takes control and the body performs . But it is not that easy. It has to be trained to happen. Jim teaches how to train it with a combination of swing map drills, slow motion training and utilisation of what he calls the feel channel. This is undertaken with with both the eyes open and closed.

In short, as was alluded to earlier, you see it, feel it then do it. But the doing it part requires no conscious direction from you. It just happens. But, it happens because the mechanics have been trained to provide the feel and when the feel is replicated the desired outcome often occurs. No, not 100% of the time, but, for me, a lot more than a lot of the time.

So if you want a particular trajectory, and ball shape you see it, vividly in your eyes mind. You see the target, and become very much target focussed.

Yes, there are certain set up adjustments you may need to make, but that is part of pre shot routine and once set, you forget about them. But, even then, once you have attained a skill level, these become automatic after you simply see the shot you want.

So, when you have reached that level, and it takes a long time to get there on a consistent basis, all you need to do is see the desired trajectory and ball shape and let go.

Those that try and think their way throughout the swing fight a never ending and unwinnable battle. The conscious mind works too slow to issue effective instructions, particularly during the downswing.

[Michael C.]

"The conscious mind works too slow to issue effective instructions, particularly during the downswing. "

Thank you, Kiwi. This sentence is key for me, at least at this point in my journey of understanding. I may be being stubborn and/or in denial but, I have a few swing flaws or tendencies that I can correct during a round when they creep in. It may be because I've trained my SM to recognize and compensate after my CM identifies the miss. Maybe, I've yet to put the time in to train my brain to execute the correct movements. Some days things just don't sequence right. No one's swing is perfect, or if it is, it's not perfect every day.

This brings me to my next question. Is swing tempo on a full swing controlled by the SM or the CM? Some days I can swing as hard as I want. Other days, I need to slow my tempo down to get my sequencing correct. It seems to me that I consciously do this.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Michael C.' timestamp='1417735464' post='10544739']
"The conscious mind works too slow to issue effective instructions, particularly during the downswing. "

Thank you, Kiwi. This sentence is key for me, at least at this point in my journey of understanding. I may be being stubborn and/or in denial but, I have a few swing flaws or tendencies that I can correct during a round when they creep in. It may be because I've trained my SM to recognize and compensate after my CM identifies the miss. Maybe, I've yet to put the time in to train my brain to execute the correct movements. Some days things just don't sequence right. No one's swing is perfect, or if it is, it's not perfect every day.

This brings me to my next question. Is swing tempo on a full swing controlled by the SM or the CM? Some days I can swing as hard as I want. Other days, I need to slow my tempo down to get my sequencing correct. It seems to me that I consciously do this.
[/quote]

Great explanation by Kiwi!

Tempo is something one can control, again - but from Feel, and again - usually something that more advanced players can do more easily than high handicaps. But also another example of programming in and then getting out of the way and letting the SM/body perform. The more precision control required, and the faster the body parts are moving, the less voluntary control one has.

Some days your mind/body connection is strong, and your SM "gets the message" and other days it is weak, and never does get it. It is one of the main reasons why all golfers - of every skill level - can be so inconsistent from day to day.

[Michael C.]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1417736981' post='10544859']
[quote name='Michael C.' timestamp='1417735464' post='10544739']
"The conscious mind works too slow to issue effective instructions, particularly during the downswing. "

Thank you, Kiwi. This sentence is key for me, at least at this point in my journey of understanding. I may be being stubborn and/or in denial but, I have a few swing flaws or tendencies that I can correct during a round when they creep in. It may be because I've trained my SM to recognize and compensate after my CM identifies the miss. Maybe, I've yet to put the time in to train my brain to execute the correct movements. Some days things just don't sequence right. No one's swing is perfect, or if it is, it's not perfect every day.

This brings me to my next question. Is swing tempo on a full swing controlled by the SM or the CM? Some days I can swing as hard as I want. Other days, I need to slow my tempo down to get my sequencing correct. It seems to me that I consciously do this.
[/quote]

Great explanation by Kiwi!

Tempo is something one can control, again - but from Feel, and again - usually something that more advanced players can do more easily than high handicaps. But also another example of programming in and then getting out of the way and letting the SM/body perform. The more precision control required, and the faster the body parts are moving, the less voluntary control one has.

Some days your mind/body connection is strong, and your SM "gets the message" and other days it is weak, and never does get it. It is one of the main reasons why all golfers - of every skill level - can be so inconsistent from day to day.
[/quote]

Thank you for your explanations Jim and Kiwi.

I apologize if I'm getting redundant.

[Reasonability]

Don't know if its universally true, but I have been asked to "slow down" during a lesson which was video taped. Felt to me like I cut almost it in half - yet the instructor asked me again to dial it back -- suggesting I hadn't done so. It sure felt to me as though I had complied. Looking at the tape later on - he was right.

My "theory" is we are creatures of very deep habit. I "may" have slowed things down by the smallest fraction when asked the first time... but to me it "felt" like a lot more. This "timer" or "internal clock" thing between the SM and CM is a biggie. And to go one step deeper - much of it seems to center "mechanically" in the takeaway and transition. But the broader picture goes to this whole "letting go". I like the term used earlier - swing feels. This is a VERY different concept than swing thoughts. I appreciated Kiwi's comment along these lines.

Having had a good number of lessons over the years... my best instructors asked me numerous times to verbalize how a better swing felt.

My last little tidbit on all this... I've invested more than my share of practice sessions working on where and when TENSION occurs while tuning into this notion of swing "feels"... even kept a journal about it. Personally, I'm no bio-mechanic. I prefer (personally) not getting too wrapped up in which vertebrae specifically or which bone in my left foot does what at P-whatever. BUT, what I AM comfortable with is paying careful attention to when and where tension creeps into my address or swing motion. When I sort of "clear the slate" tension-wise, then the swing "feels" part seems to shine through. Do I pause here and there - check the mirror and look at a mechanical position or check my posture and such? YES. But the goal (to me) is to manage to hit such "marks" via tension-free and relaxed "flow".

BTW - the Zone book Jim... its on my list. Haven't read it... YET. Definitely will.