The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='JasonFL' timestamp='1418093140' post='10565309']
Jim,

Whats your thoughts on holding the triangle that you setup with at address all the way until your shoulders force you to stop turning? This also includes the angle your hands and shaft make while at address. As your shoulders move, the entire triangle moves, and you effectively never lift your arms.

Ive been experimenting with this for the past few weeks. Ive notice a few things.

-The club head will stay outside of your hands until it reaches parallel to the ground or a little after.
-Your right arm will eventually bend but not a whole lot.
-Your hands stay in front of you the whole time (Pivot stops, arms stop, hands stop)
-Your left shoulder works down/under your chin (cant really do anything other than that).
-Your right wrist will set at the top without thinking about it.
-The absolute deal killer is if you let anything other than your left side move first. Everything else pretty much does nothing, You just uncoil.

I've never been hitting the ball better. From driver all the way to my 60. Infact my short clubs are going a little too far due to the lower ball flight (Prior I hit the ball as high as I did far).

Is this similar to your swing theory? Or just bits and pieces of it?
[/quote]

Sounds mostly the same as my model. The basic idea is to limit as much as possible independent arm motion, ie upper arm joint (not forearm or wrists obviously) and to use the Pivot much more than mid to high handicap golfers tend to do. But you need a little bit of independent arm motion during the backswing to slot the arms and clubshaft in the proper position to the torso. This is the slight "pushaway" move I talked about in the thread.

But you know that the most important thing is that you actually achieved a breakthrough in how you are striking it, which is way more important than whether it matches my swing model exactly or not. The model is just a template, in any case, to get my students moving in a better direction. Since you have experienced such dramatic improvement, I strongly recommend taping several different club swings, from several different angles, and keep a record of this so that you can always come back to this setup and swing pattern in the future if you get off track.

I love the "doing nothing" except un-coiling part - could not agree more! Too bad you can't bottle that feeling!

Pretty cool that you are hitting it that much better!!

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Mob' timestamp='1418085645' post='10564709']
Jim,
I just want to thank you for spending so much time sharing your views of the golf swing with us. I just came across this thread yesterday, spent a few hours only getting through the first 10 pages, then went into my garage to hit some balls. I was able to apply this process to my swing, although it is unclear to me if I am doing it correctly, but I did feel like I started making solid contact after about 20 shots. In general, I take shallow to no divots with my irons, and I started noticing that this swing change felt like I was hitting down on the ball more and compressing it more. Unfortunately, I have no idea from hitting into a net what the ball flight looks like, so I am hesitant to ingrain this swing change, without knowing what the ball flight is, in case I am doing it all completely wrong. I have a club fitter here who has a flightscope, and I may try and get on it, to confirm that the ball flight is appropriate, before I start getting used to it.

Thanks again for spending so much time on this with us.
[/quote]

Thank you for your positive feedback!

In general, most of my students do not get the ASI 100% correct when first exposed to it, and therefore any body motion they are working on is usually not 100% correct either, although most do see some level of ballstriking improvement right away, as you have, simply because they are much "closer" to swinging like a tour pro than with their old pattern, ie they are doing some of the swing model moves to some degree now.

I think the important thing is to simply understand how toxic "swinging the arms" behind you to more than a small degree is in the backswing, and then swinging across torso mid-line through impact is as well. If you grasp those two concepts, you will understand why "keeping the arms/club in front of you" is a really good concept. Achieving that understanding is much more important - especially in the long term, which every golfer says they really want - than any immediate or short term ball flight improvement. The understanding creates the possibility of improved ball flight, because once you have that Insight, then you can train your body to do the proper moves.

Yes - most golfers who have an "armsy" swing with a poor Pivot, will tend not to compress the ball very well, and so it is not a surprise that you are feeling and hearing more solid contact.

I do enjoy keeping this thread going, still amazed at how much buzz it continues to generate, and how often I hear from golfers and forum members who have benefited from the ASI and now some other Balance Point concepts.

[JasonFL]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1418102044' post='10565929']

I love the "doing nothing" except un-coiling part - could not agree more! Too bad you can't bottle that feeling!

Pretty cool that you are hitting it that much better!!
[/quote]

This is the hard part for sure. Keeping things quiet in transition (losing the hit mentality). Once the transition is initiated everything falls in place.

[size=4]Keeping them and my arms from doing anything at all at the initial part of the down swing is taking some getting used to though. But I have hit enough balls now that I can feel when my hands try to control the swing. A wipey fade if I hold them from releasing and a high draw if I flip them. Both tend to happen if I initiate the down swing incorrectly. [/size]

[size=4]I do know that some use of the hands/forearms in the back swing would help. Just trying to take baby steps with what I add to this new feel.[/size]

Gonna take your advice and video myself. Been avoiding it just in case I don't like what I see.

Thanks again

[Atrayn]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1418102604' post='10565955']
[quote name='Mob' timestamp='1418085645' post='10564709']
Jim,
I just want to thank you for spending so much time sharing your views of the golf swing with us. I just came across this thread yesterday, spent a few hours only getting through the first 10 pages, then went into my garage to hit some balls. I was able to apply this process to my swing, although it is unclear to me if I am doing it correctly, but I did feel like I started making solid contact after about 20 shots. In general, I take shallow to no divots with my irons, and I started noticing that this swing change felt like I was hitting down on the ball more and compressing it more. Unfortunately, I have no idea from hitting into a net what the ball flight looks like, so I am hesitant to ingrain this swing change, without knowing what the ball flight is, in case I am doing it all completely wrong. I have a club fitter here who has a flightscope, and I may try and get on it, to confirm that the ball flight is appropriate, before I start getting used to it.

Thanks again for spending so much time on this with us.
[/quote]

Thank you for your positive feedback!

In general, most of my students do not get the ASI 100% correct when first exposed to it, and therefore any body motion they are working on is usually not 100% correct either, although most do see some level of ballstriking improvement right away, as you have, simply because they are much "closer" to swinging like a tour pro than with their old pattern, ie they are doing some of the swing model moves to some degree now.

I think the important thing is to simply understand how toxic "swinging the arms" behind you to more than a small degree is in the backswing, and then swinging across torso mid-line through impact is as well. If you grasp those two concepts, you will understand why "keeping the arms/club in front of you" is a really good concept. Achieving that understanding is much more important - especially in the long term, which every golfer says they really want - than any immediate or short term ball flight improvement. The understanding creates the possibility of improved ball flight, because once you have that Insight, then you can train your body to do the proper moves.

Yes - most golfers who have an "armsy" swing with a poor Pivot, will tend not to compress the ball very well, and so it is not a surprise that you are feeling and hearing more solid contact.

I do enjoy keeping this thread going, still amazed at how much buzz it continues to generate, and how often I hear from golfers and forum members who have benefited from the ASI and now some other Balance Point concepts.
[/quote]

I think many people don't stick with it because the new "feel" tends to be "wrong" in their mind's eye. If you've been sucking the club too far inside, then it "feels" like you are exaggerating an "outside" takeaway feel. From there, if you were are a hooker with a pivot stall, your tendency is to drop the right shoulder and come too much from the inside. With that, the feel to fix it is more of an "over the top" move to keep that from happening. If you suck it inside and you are an over the top slicer, then many times, once you fix the "illusion" it's just a matter of decreasing the amount of "over the top" you feel in the shoulder plane.

That's why video is so crucial. you need that visual feedback to associate with "feel". I was the pivot stall hooker and it took a while before the correct sync felt comfortable. I had to combine two feels.

One was the lower body feel with the hips and as Monte describes as the zipper away drill. I had to get that lower spine in the right position and the feel for me is just driving the left hip to establish that left pivot point. However, I also needed to feel that slight right shoulder "over the top" feel to ensure that my shoulders were always rotating perpendicular to the spine. Initially, I overdid it and the path was too far outside in the downswing, but after correcting the hip issue, this really got my path on track because I had the proper baseline shift.

Finally after much practice, and trusting it and it all clicked. My only issue now is that I tend to rush the transition. If I do, then it's compensation time. I don't need to check video anymore because my divot patterns tell the story and usually I can feel where the problem lies...

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Atrayn' timestamp='1418135245' post='10566749']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1418102604' post='10565955']
[quote name='Mob' timestamp='1418085645' post='10564709']
Jim,
I just want to thank you for spending so much time sharing your views of the golf swing with us. I just came across this thread yesterday, spent a few hours only getting through the first 10 pages, then went into my garage to hit some balls. I was able to apply this process to my swing, although it is unclear to me if I am doing it correctly, but I did feel like I started making solid contact after about 20 shots. In general, I take shallow to no divots with my irons, and I started noticing that this swing change felt like I was hitting down on the ball more and compressing it more. Unfortunately, I have no idea from hitting into a net what the ball flight looks like, so I am hesitant to ingrain this swing change, without knowing what the ball flight is, in case I am doing it all completely wrong. I have a club fitter here who has a flightscope, and I may try and get on it, to confirm that the ball flight is appropriate, before I start getting used to it.

Thanks again for spending so much time on this with us.
[/quote]

Thank you for your positive feedback!

In general, most of my students do not get the ASI 100% correct when first exposed to it, and therefore any body motion they are working on is usually not 100% correct either, although most do see some level of ballstriking improvement right away, as you have, simply because they are much "closer" to swinging like a tour pro than with their old pattern, ie they are doing some of the swing model moves to some degree now.

I think the important thing is to simply understand how toxic "swinging the arms" behind you to more than a small degree is in the backswing, and then swinging across torso mid-line through impact is as well. If you grasp those two concepts, you will understand why "keeping the arms/club in front of you" is a really good concept. Achieving that understanding is much more important - especially in the long term, which every golfer says they really want - than any immediate or short term ball flight improvement. The understanding creates the possibility of improved ball flight, because once you have that Insight, then you can train your body to do the proper moves.

Yes - most golfers who have an "armsy" swing with a poor Pivot, will tend not to compress the ball very well, and so it is not a surprise that you are feeling and hearing more solid contact.

I do enjoy keeping this thread going, still amazed at how much buzz it continues to generate, and how often I hear from golfers and forum members who have benefited from the ASI and now some other Balance Point concepts.
[/quote]

I think many people don't stick with it because the new "feel" tends to be "wrong" in their mind's eye. If you've been sucking the club too far inside, then it "feels" like you are exaggerating an "outside" takeaway feel. From there, if you were are a hooker with a pivot stall, your tendency is to drop the right shoulder and come too much from the inside. With that, the feel to fix it is more of an "over the top" move to keep that from happening. If you suck it inside and you are an over the top slicer, then many times, once you fix the "illusion" it's just a matter of decreasing the amount of "over the top" you feel in the shoulder plane.

That's why video is so crucial. you need that visual feedback to associate with "feel". I was the pivot stall hooker and it took a while before the correct sync felt comfortable. I had to combine two feels.

One was the lower body feel with the hips and as Monte describes as the zipper away drill. I had to get that lower spine in the right position and the feel for me is just driving the left hip to establish that left pivot point. However, I also needed to feel that slight right shoulder "over the top" feel to ensure that my shoulders were always rotating perpendicular to the spine. Initially, I overdid it and the path was too far outside in the downswing, but after correcting the hip issue, this really got my path on track because I had the proper baseline shift.

Finally after much practice, and trusting it and it all clicked. My only issue now is that I tend to rush the transition. If I do, then it's compensation time. I don't need to check video anymore because my divot patterns tell the story and usually I can feel where the problem lies...
[/quote]

Great report on your swing changes, Atrayn. I totally agree on the requirement for frequent use of video when undergoing a radical swing change. You use feel subjectively to gain some measure of control over your body (thought has no positive influence as discussed earlier in the thread), and then you need to see on tape if you are actually doing what you are feeling. That process takes some time, ie the Feel Channel needs to be trained and only after a period of training can you rely on it to a large degree to give you accurate feedback.

Yes - the hip move is really an important part of the swing. I call it "going southwest" with the left hip - a blend of lateral shift to the west and a tiny bit to the southwest, with hip rotation to the south, the blend of those two moves is in the direction of "southwest", the ball is "north".

[Atrayn]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1418195351' post='10571247']
[quote name='Atrayn' timestamp='1418135245' post='10566749']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1418102604' post='10565955']
[quote name='Mob' timestamp='1418085645' post='10564709']
Jim,
I just want to thank you for spending so much time sharing your views of the golf swing with us. I just came across this thread yesterday, spent a few hours only getting through the first 10 pages, then went into my garage to hit some balls. I was able to apply this process to my swing, although it is unclear to me if I am doing it correctly, but I did feel like I started making solid contact after about 20 shots. In general, I take shallow to no divots with my irons, and I started noticing that this swing change felt like I was hitting down on the ball more and compressing it more. Unfortunately, I have no idea from hitting into a net what the ball flight looks like, so I am hesitant to ingrain this swing change, without knowing what the ball flight is, in case I am doing it all completely wrong. I have a club fitter here who has a flightscope, and I may try and get on it, to confirm that the ball flight is appropriate, before I start getting used to it.

Thanks again for spending so much time on this with us.
[/quote]

Thank you for your positive feedback!

In general, most of my students do not get the ASI 100% correct when first exposed to it, and therefore any body motion they are working on is usually not 100% correct either, although most do see some level of ballstriking improvement right away, as you have, simply because they are much "closer" to swinging like a tour pro than with their old pattern, ie they are doing some of the swing model moves to some degree now.

I think the important thing is to simply understand how toxic "swinging the arms" behind you to more than a small degree is in the backswing, and then swinging across torso mid-line through impact is as well. If you grasp those two concepts, you will understand why "keeping the arms/club in front of you" is a really good concept. Achieving that understanding is much more important - especially in the long term, which every golfer says they really want - than any immediate or short term ball flight improvement. The understanding creates the possibility of improved ball flight, because once you have that Insight, then you can train your body to do the proper moves.

Yes - most golfers who have an "armsy" swing with a poor Pivot, will tend not to compress the ball very well, and so it is not a surprise that you are feeling and hearing more solid contact.

I do enjoy keeping this thread going, still amazed at how much buzz it continues to generate, and how often I hear from golfers and forum members who have benefited from the ASI and now some other Balance Point concepts.
[/quote]

I think many people don't stick with it because the new "feel" tends to be "wrong" in their mind's eye. If you've been sucking the club too far inside, then it "feels" like you are exaggerating an "outside" takeaway feel. From there, if you were are a hooker with a pivot stall, your tendency is to drop the right shoulder and come too much from the inside. With that, the feel to fix it is more of an "over the top" move to keep that from happening. If you suck it inside and you are an over the top slicer, then many times, once you fix the "illusion" it's just a matter of decreasing the amount of "over the top" you feel in the shoulder plane.

That's why video is so crucial. you need that visual feedback to associate with "feel". I was the pivot stall hooker and it took a while before the correct sync felt comfortable. I had to combine two feels.

One was the lower body feel with the hips and as Monte describes as the zipper away drill. I had to get that lower spine in the right position and the feel for me is just driving the left hip to establish that left pivot point. However, I also needed to feel that slight right shoulder "over the top" feel to ensure that my shoulders were always rotating perpendicular to the spine. Initially, I overdid it and the path was too far outside in the downswing, but after correcting the hip issue, this really got my path on track because I had the proper baseline shift.

Finally after much practice, and trusting it and it all clicked. My only issue now is that I tend to rush the transition. If I do, then it's compensation time. I don't need to check video anymore because my divot patterns tell the story and usually I can feel where the problem lies...
[/quote]

Great report on your swing changes, Atrayn. I totally agree on the requirement for frequent use of video when undergoing a radical swing change. You use feel subjectively to gain some measure of control over your body (thought has no positive influence as discussed earlier in the thread), and then you need to see on tape if you are actually doing what you are feeling. That process takes some time, ie the Feel Channel needs to be trained and only after a period of training can you rely on it to a large degree to give you accurate feedback.

Yes - the hip move is really an important part of the swing. I call it "going southwest" with the left hip - a blend of lateral shift to the west and a tiny bit to the southwest, with hip rotation to the south, the blend of those two moves is in the direction of "southwest", the ball is "north".
[/quote]

Quite amazing how hard that move is to ingrain, especially if you used to pivot stall/goat hump. Additionally, how important it is as it allows other very good things to happen unconsciously that someone may be trying to consciously implement without success.

[Atrayn]

Back in '09 when I first stumbled upon the Slicefixer thread, this was a missing piece for me when I was doing all the 9-3's. It's easy to miss when you are working on such a small swing, however, that move, and I will also add, the ground pressures felt in the feet associated with it are critical to success.
The Slicefixer thread/book had you concentrating on the "connection" and takeaway (ie club straight back 8-10") which if, done with the pivot is essentially helping to eliminate the "illusion", however didn't really touch on the "southwest" "zipper move".

I do realize that the 9-3 drill is focused more on leveraged impact, but the impact zone has so much more to it than club position and having your hands in the right place.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Atrayn' timestamp='1418225211' post='10572079']
Back in '09 when I first stumbled upon the Slicefixer thread, this was a missing piece for me when I was doing all the 9-3's. It's easy to miss when you are working on such a small swing, however, that move, and I will also add, the ground pressures felt in the feet associated with it are critical to success.
The Slicefixer thread/book had you concentrating on the "connection" and takeaway (ie club straight back 8-10") which if, done with the pivot is essentially helping to eliminate the "illusion", however didn't really touch on the "southwest" "zipper move".

I do realize that the 9-3 drill is focused more on leveraged impact, but the impact zone has so much more to it than club position and having your hands in the right place.
[/quote]

Yes, the straight back part would help somewhat with the illusion-caused sucking the arms and club inside the plane, but only to a limited extent, in my experience. If the Illusion is still holding sway in the mind of the golfer, they can very easily start a really dramatic sucking inside move right after that first part of takeaway.

[Atrayn]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1418331178' post='10579837']
[quote name='Atrayn' timestamp='1418225211' post='10572079']
Back in '09 when I first stumbled upon the Slicefixer thread, this was a missing piece for me when I was doing all the 9-3's. It's easy to miss when you are working on such a small swing, however, that move, and I will also add, the ground pressures felt in the feet associated with it are critical to success.
The Slicefixer thread/book had you concentrating on the "connection" and takeaway (ie club straight back 8-10") which if, done with the pivot is essentially helping to eliminate the "illusion", however didn't really touch on the "southwest" "zipper move".

I do realize that the 9-3 drill is focused more on leveraged impact, but the impact zone has so much more to it than club position and having your hands in the right place.
[/quote]

Yes, the straight back part would help somewhat with the illusion-caused sucking the arms and club inside the plane, but only to a limited extent, in my experience. If the Illusion is still holding sway in the mind of the golfer, they can very easily start a really dramatic sucking inside move right after that first part of takeaway.
[/quote]

No doubt about that. I meant it as an "akin" statement of course. It's a cautionary tale I try to convey for those that discover Geoff's great thread. They have to take it with a grain of salt. It was only a compilation of posts. Internet info will only take the majority of people down a path. One needs to really decide how far they want to go. For most, they need to go see a competent instructor in person before they take the long road to an efficient, repeatable swing. If that is even achieved, it takes maintenance to keep it. Unfortunately, there is no end to the path either....sometimes you're broke down along it, other times you're purring along nicely. It's how you manage it that counts!

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Atrayn' timestamp='1418334575' post='10580073']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1418331178' post='10579837']
[quote name='Atrayn' timestamp='1418225211' post='10572079']
Back in '09 when I first stumbled upon the Slicefixer thread, this was a missing piece for me when I was doing all the 9-3's. It's easy to miss when you are working on such a small swing, however, that move, and I will also add, the ground pressures felt in the feet associated with it are critical to success.
The Slicefixer thread/book had you concentrating on the "connection" and takeaway (ie club straight back 8-10") which if, done with the pivot is essentially helping to eliminate the "illusion", however didn't really touch on the "southwest" "zipper move".

I do realize that the 9-3 drill is focused more on leveraged impact, but the impact zone has so much more to it than club position and having your hands in the right place.
[/quote]

Yes, the straight back part would help somewhat with the illusion-caused sucking the arms and club inside the plane, but only to a limited extent, in my experience. If the Illusion is still holding sway in the mind of the golfer, they can very easily start a really dramatic sucking inside move right after that first part of takeaway.
[/quote]

No doubt about that. I meant it as an "akin" statement of course. It's a cautionary tale I try to convey for those that discover Geoff's great thread. They have to take it with a grain of salt. It was only a compilation of posts. Internet info will only take the majority of people down a path. One needs to really decide how far they want to go. For most, they need to go see a competent instructor in person before they take the long road to an efficient, repeatable swing. If that is even achieved, it takes maintenance to keep it. Unfortunately, there is no end to the path either....sometimes you're broke down along it, other times you're purring along nicely. It's how you manage it that counts!
[/quote]

I could not agree more on how important working with a competent instructor is. So many golfers who frequent the golf forums seem to believe that they can substantially improve without a professional providing feedback. That premise is the "golf swing as engineering puzzle" fallacy that I have written about before. The idea that ONLY conscious, intellectual, swing-theory type knowledge is needed to get better. The process of learning the craft of ballstriking is so much more than mere theory!

[Michael C.]

Jim,

I'm self-taught and solid contact and ball flight have always been my concern. I never really worried what my swing looked like. Whenever I've chased positions in the swing it seemed counter-intuitive. I do have a few swing flaws/tendencies that keep me from being as consistent as I like. I became aware of them trying a new app on my smartphone. I had never recorded my swing before. That is why you piqued my interest with the SM and CM and the way we learn and train our mind and body to move in ways without conscious thought. Fortunately, I believe I can correct my backswing and transition to achieve what I'm trying to achieve. The ASI has also been helpful in giving me an understanding on how to get to where I want to be in the backswing.

I know a good instructor would probably help me along a little faster but, I enjoy the journey of trying to figure this stuff out. I don't play competitively and i only keep score when I'm with people who want to keep score.( I usually know where I am in relation to par, though, so I guess I do keep score. LOL).

Thanks again for your insights in this forum.

[mikah]

I'm self-taught and solid contact and ball flight have always been my concern. I never really worried what my swing looked like. Whenever I've chased positions in the swing it seemed counter-intuitive. I do have a few swing flaws/tendencies that keep me from being as consistent as I like. I became aware of them trying a new app on my smartphone. I had never recorded my swing before. That is why you piqued my interest with the SM and CM and the way we learn and train our mind and body to move in ways without conscious thought. Fortunately, I believe I can correct my backswing and transition to achieve what I'm trying to achieve. The ASI has also been helpful in giving me an understanding on how to get to where I want to be in the backswing.

I know a good instructor would probably help me along a little faster but, I enjoy the journey of trying to figure this stuff out. I don't play competitively and i only keep score when I'm with people who want to keep score.( I usually know where I am in relation to par, though, so I guess I do keep score. LOL).

Thanks again for your insights in this forum.


Michael C,
I think that science supports your learning path.

‘Solid contact and ball flight’ are EXTERNAL, opposed to internal cues, that concentrate on the specific motor co ordination.(Gabrielle Wulf)

Understanding ‘mirror neurons’ and how humans developed skills and culture, is one way to understand, what you stated:

“the way we learn and train our mind and body to move without conscious thought”


neuroscientist VS Rachmachandran’s TED talk

[url="http://www.axonpotential.com/mirror-neurons-and-athletes/"]http://www.axonpoten...s-and-athletes/[/url]

when we understand how 'mirror neurons' work, can anyone say that they are self taught? LOL

Apparently Sam Snead understood watching the wrong swings would hurt his own swing.
We will mirror every swing we watch. Maybe we should only watch those swings we want to mirror?


http://www.golflink.com/tipsvideos/video.aspx?v=105845

[AndyC]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1418417029' post='10584745']I could not agree more on how important working with a competent instructor is. So many golfers who frequent the golf forums seem to believe that they can substantially improve without a professional providing feedback. That premise is the "golf swing as engineering puzzle" fallacy that I have written about before. The idea that ONLY conscious, intellectual, swing-theory type knowledge is needed to get better. The process of learning the craft of ballstriking is so much more than mere theory!
[/quote]

You have identified the Catch 22. Since we amateurs are not smart enough to improve on our own how would we be smart enough to identify a competent instructor? What would the competent instructor be teaching if not applied theory? Do a couple of timely atta-boys make a difference? What do you teach that isn't applied theory?

[Michael C.]

[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1418573216' post='10591783']
I'm self-taught and solid contact and ball flight have always been my concern. I never really worried what my swing looked like. Whenever I've chased positions in the swing it seemed counter-intuitive. I do have a few swing flaws/tendencies that keep me from being as consistent as I like. I became aware of them trying a new app on my smartphone. I had never recorded my swing before. That is why you piqued my interest with the SM and CM and the way we learn and train our mind and body to move in ways without conscious thought. Fortunately, I believe I can correct my backswing and transition to achieve what I'm trying to achieve. The ASI has also been helpful in giving me an understanding on how to get to where I want to be in the backswing.

I know a good instructor would probably help me along a little faster but, I enjoy the journey of trying to figure this stuff out. I don't play competitively and i only keep score when I'm with people who want to keep score.( I usually know where I am in relation to par, though, so I guess I do keep score. LOL).

Thanks again for your insights in this forum.


Michael C,
I think that science supports your learning path.

‘Solid contact and ball flight’ are EXTERNAL, opposed to internal cues, that concentrate on the specific motor co ordination.(Gabrielle Wulf)

Understanding ‘mirror neurons’ and how humans developed skills and culture, is one way to understand, what you stated:

“the way we learn and train our mind and body to move without conscious thought”


neuroscientist VS Rachmachandran’s TED talk

[url="http://www.axonpotential.com/mirror-neurons-and-athletes/"]http://www.axonpoten...s-and-athletes/[/url]

when we understand how 'mirror neurons' work, can anyone say that they are self taught? LOL

Apparently Sam Snead understood watching the wrong swings would hurt his own swing.
We will mirror every swing we watch. Maybe we should only watch those swings we want to mirror?


[url="http://www.golflink.com/tipsvideos/video.aspx?v=105845"]http://www.golflink....o.aspx?v=105845[/url]
[/quote]


Interesting points.

I believe that is why playing with people who are better than ourselves helps us improve our own play. When I was in my 20's I played with people who would often beat me by 10 strokes and often more. (I started playing at 22). I noticed that these people didn't hit shots that I couldn't hit. They were just more consistent and their short games were better. Also, the better the player, the better the balance and rhythm, in most cases. Now, I rarely watch other people swings while playing. I will sit in my car at the range when I'm done practicing or sit on the patio of the clubhouse and watch groups tee off. I'm amazed at all the different ways people swing a club and put the ball in play.

This summer I was on the practice putting green when I stopped to watch a guy hit putts. His putting stroke was slower in tempo than mine. It reminded me that when I struggle with short putts it is often related to my tempo. I adjusted and began making more putts. I guess my CM made adjustments so my SM could be more proficient. LOL. I like this thread. It confirmed a lot of things that I had been thinking. I'm beginning to learn the terminology that goes with it.......Mirror neurons....Noted.

[starsail85]

Can anybody tell me at what point in the backswing the push away move should take place, is it once the body has turned to 8 o'clock?

[mikah]

[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1418658748' post='10595771']
Can anybody tell me at what point in the backswing the push away move should take place, is it once the body has turned to 8 o'clock?
[/quote]

MS,

Here is an explanation why what you ask is unknowable, IMO:
at the end there is an explanation of how WE turn to our right.


"The human system of locomotion is purely lever/ leverage based.

We have, on average, 206 bones in the developed skeletal system and the vast majority of those bones are involved in the golf swing, in one way or another. And that relates to both the upswing and the downswing.

The muscles that pull on the bones to move them, in compliance with the Laws of Leverage and also Newtons Laws of Motion, are all controlled by the deep subconscious areas of the human brain. That region in the brain has utterly NO knowledge of even the existence of GOLF, as we understand it to be on the conscious levels. It is critical to understand that.

The mechanical golf swing that you experience and see is actually a chain of sequential bone movements, acting in the lever format, and pre-programmed as an entire sequence of inter-related but individual mechanical events by the deep subconscious. In essence it is a REACTION CHAIN resulting from a conscious intention.

We form a conscious intention that passes to the subconscious for execution. The subconscious refers to memory of all similar past performances and draws up a program that creates the stimulation of all the required muscles and muscle groups. The muscles are stimulated into contraction in a most specific SEQUENCE of events and this results in the SEQUENTIAL movement of bones (as levers), usually through radial arcs and usually involves rotations about joints as well.

Every bone that moves is completely dependent upon the movements and positions of the bones that preceded it, within the sequence of mechanical events. If any bone (lever) is, in any way, out of ideal location then the movement of the bone immediately following in the sequence, and attached to the problem bone/ lever, must alter the entire sequence of motion.

Where and how you place your feet is FUNDAMENTAL to the stability of the entire sequence of motion. If your balance is guaranteed then I would agree with your suggestion that it then comes down physics and bio-mechanics to get the rest of the job done.
However there are provisos;

1.... the position of this ideal balance MUST be ideally situated to accommodate the needs of the line or direction of the intended sequences of motion, both upswing and downswing.
2....Anything that is required to be moved by the subconscious brain in it's needs to pre-program the entire sequences of motions MUST BE FREE TO MOVE.
Example...the head and hip masses are geared to act in INVOLUNTARY counter balance to maintain upright balance, and that is as old as upright man himself. If (say) you intend that the hips should slide to the left in the upswing ( as in Ben Hogan's swing) you MUST allow freedom of the head to move in exactly the opposite direction.

Additional to that; if you are walking in a direction and then intend to turn to the right, what steers you to the right, what controls the turning? You head turns and faces the direction you intend to move in and your right elbow pulls back in an arc while your left elbow moves in a corresponding arc around you. If this is so automatic, so powerfully ingrained, so genetically based and so old in Upright Man, why the hell wouldn't the golfer incorporate it all into his/ her golf swing? Can anyone give me one valid reason why not?

If this freedom of head, arm, hip coordinated motion is [i][u]genetically embedded into Human Locomotion who are you to tell the deep subconscious that, no, head stays where it is, hips stay where they are[/u][/i].

Food for thought

Gerry Hogan
Copyright (c) All rights reserved 2011.

[Millbrook]

I believe it is simultaneous with the start of the backswing, you push away as you pivot.
I'm guessing a bit here because it would seem to me that you mention 8 o'clock because the arms will start to begin to lift here.
At this point the pushaway is complete but it has happened before then not as an action at that point.

My understanding or feel is that because it is about the hands relative to the torso as the torso turns the hands travel in a straight line rather than following the arc created by the torso. So this is a pushaway from the arc the hands would follow if they followed the turning torso but it begins immediately the torso begins to turn.

Open to correction as always.

[Millbrook]

deleted duplicate post

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1418658748' post='10595771']
Can anybody tell me at what point in the backswing the push away move should take place, is it once the body has turned to 8 o'clock?
[/quote]


There is no one single correct answer to how I deal with that very common question. It depends - as is almost always the case - on the individual human golfer. For most golfers, when the body has completed about one quarter to one third of the takeaway, or about 15 degrees of torso rotation, is when the arm pushaway will start. But starting simultaneously can also work very well. Remember I am talking about actual objective fact here - NOT conscious mind intention. If you tend to suck the arms inside very quickly, then simultaneous is best. If you tend to go outside with the arms first, then pivot first of 15 degrees and then pushaway is best. And it is not a question only of WHEN to start the pushaway - it is also the speed at which you do both movements. You want to blend them so that the shaft tracks back on plane. Going too fast or too slowly with one or the other will cause you to be out of synch.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Millbrook' timestamp='1418659991' post='10595879']
I believe it is simultaneous with the start of the backswing, you push away as you pivot.
I'm guessing a bit here because it would seem to me that you mention 8 o'clock because the arms will start to begin to lift here.
At this point the pushaway is complete but it has happened before then not as an action at that point.

My understanding or feel is that because it is about the hands relative to the torso as the torso turns the hands travel in a straight line rather than following the arc created by the torso. So this is a pushaway from the arc the hands would follow if they followed the turning torso but it begins immediately the torso begins to turn.

Open to correction as always.
[/quote]

Sorry, not correct. The hands move in an arc with the torso, never in a straight line. But they are moving away from the torso slightly as the torso turns. The arms/hands are being moved in an arc by the pivot, since they are connected to each other by the arms/shoulder joint AND the hands/arms are moving themselves slightly away from the torso. Our minds are programmed to think in 2D which is why folks struggle with this concept.

[Kiwi2]

Mizunostaffer.

For a bit more on what Jim said refer to his answer in post #1327 on page 45 of this thread:

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/832733-the-arm-swing-illusion-jim-waldrons-swing-philosophy/page__st__1320__p__7831831#entry7831831"]http://www.golfwrx.c...31#entry7831831[/url]

And to the video below:

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pvznntaeulk[/media]

[Millbrook]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1418664583' post='10596239']
[quote name='Millbrook' timestamp='1418659991' post='10595879']
I believe it is simultaneous with the start of the backswing, you push away as you pivot.
I'm guessing a bit here because it would seem to me that you mention 8 o'clock because the arms will start to begin to lift here.
At this point the pushaway is complete but it has happened before then not as an action at that point.

My understanding or feel is that because it is about the hands relative to the torso as the torso turns the hands travel in a straight line rather than following the arc created by the torso. So this is a pushaway from the arc the hands would follow if they followed the turning torso but it begins immediately the torso begins to turn.

Open to correction as always.
[/quote]

Sorry, not correct. The hands move in an arc with the torso, never in a straight line. But they are moving away from the torso slightly as the torso turns. The arms/hands are being moved in an arc by the pivot, since they are connected to each other by the arms/shoulder joint AND the hands/arms are moving themselves slightly away from the torso. Our minds are programmed to think in 2D which is why folks struggle with this concept.
[/quote]

Thanks Jim, happy to be corrected. Always happy to be the daft laddie on the basis I'm probably not the only one with the misconception.

[starsail85]

[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1418659700' post='10595849']
[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1418658748' post='10595771']
Can anybody tell me at what point in the backswing the push away move should take place, is it once the body has turned to 8 o'clock?
[/quote]

MS,

Here is an explanation why what you ask is unknowable, IMO:
at the end there is an explanation of how WE turn to our right.


"The human system of locomotion is purely lever/ leverage based.

We have, on average, 206 bones in the developed skeletal system and the vast majority of those bones are involved in the golf swing, in one way or another. And that relates to both the upswing and the downswing.

The muscles that pull on the bones to move them, in compliance with the Laws of Leverage and also Newtons Laws of Motion, are all controlled by the deep subconscious areas of the human brain. That region in the brain has utterly NO knowledge of even the existence of GOLF, as we understand it to be on the conscious levels. It is critical to understand that.

The mechanical golf swing that you experience and see is actually a chain of sequential bone movements, acting in the lever format, and pre-programmed as an entire sequence of inter-related but individual mechanical events by the deep subconscious. In essence it is a REACTION CHAIN resulting from a conscious intention.

We form a conscious intention that passes to the subconscious for execution. The subconscious refers to memory of all similar past performances and draws up a program that creates the stimulation of all the required muscles and muscle groups. The muscles are stimulated into contraction in a most specific SEQUENCE of events and this results in the SEQUENTIAL movement of bones (as levers), usually through radial arcs and usually involves rotations about joints as well.

Every bone that moves is completely dependent upon the movements and positions of the bones that preceded it, within the sequence of mechanical events. If any bone (lever) is, in any way, out of ideal location then the movement of the bone immediately following in the sequence, and attached to the problem bone/ lever, must alter the entire sequence of motion.

Where and how you place your feet is FUNDAMENTAL to the stability of the entire sequence of motion. If your balance is guaranteed then I would agree with your suggestion that it then comes down physics and bio-mechanics to get the rest of the job done.
However there are provisos;

1.... the position of this ideal balance MUST be ideally situated to accommodate the needs of the line or direction of the intended sequences of motion, both upswing and downswing.
2....Anything that is required to be moved by the subconscious brain in it's needs to pre-program the entire sequences of motions MUST BE FREE TO MOVE.
Example...the head and hip masses are geared to act in INVOLUNTARY counter balance to maintain upright balance, and that is as old as upright man himself. If (say) you intend that the hips should slide to the left in the upswing ( as in Ben Hogan's swing) you MUST allow freedom of the head to move in exactly the opposite direction.

Additional to that; if you are walking in a direction and then intend to turn to the right, what steers you to the right, what controls the turning? You head turns and faces the direction you intend to move in and your right elbow pulls back in an arc while your left elbow moves in a corresponding arc around you. If this is so automatic, so powerfully ingrained, so genetically based and so old in Upright Man, why the hell wouldn't the golfer incorporate it all into his/ her golf swing? Can anyone give me one valid reason why not?

If this freedom of head, arm, hip coordinated motion is [i][u]genetically embedded into Human Locomotion who are you to tell the deep subconscious that, no, head stays where it is, hips stay where they are[/u][/i].

Food for thought

Gerry Hogan
Copyright (c) All rights reserved 2011.
[/quote]

Wow

Some concepts I havnt thought about here

Could this give me an answer to how I can stop moving my knees and hips slightly when I putt?

[starsail85]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1418664390' post='10596221']
[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1418658748' post='10595771']
Can anybody tell me at what point in the backswing the push away move should take place, is it once the body has turned to 8 o'clock?
[/quote]


There is no one single correct answer to how I deal with that very common question. It depends - as is almost always the case - on the individual human golfer. For most golfers, when the body has completed about one quarter to one third of the takeaway, or about 15 degrees of torso rotation, is when the arm pushaway will start. But starting simultaneously can also work very well. Remember I am talking about actual objective fact here - NOT conscious mind intention. If you tend to suck the arms inside very quickly, then simultaneous is best. If you tend to go outside with the arms first, then pivot first of 15 degrees and then pushaway is best. And it is not a question only of WHEN to start the pushaway - it is also the speed at which you do both movements. You want to blend them so that the shaft tracks back on plane. Going too fast or too slowly with one or the other will cause you to be out of synch.
[/quote]

Jim

This correlates with what I feel and see on camera. I'm definitely a hands can move out too fast takeaway. What you say about the speed of the movements makes perfect sense to me

What do you define as an on plane shaft? Extension line from club head or grip end always pointing at the extended incline plane line/ball target line?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1418671609' post='10596857']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1418664390' post='10596221']
[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1418658748' post='10595771']
Can anybody tell me at what point in the backswing the push away move should take place, is it once the body has turned to 8 o'clock?
[/quote]


There is no one single correct answer to how I deal with that very common question. It depends - as is almost always the case - on the individual human golfer. For most golfers, when the body has completed about one quarter to one third of the takeaway, or about 15 degrees of torso rotation, is when the arm pushaway will start. But starting simultaneously can also work very well. Remember I am talking about actual objective fact here - NOT conscious mind intention. If you tend to suck the arms inside very quickly, then simultaneous is best. If you tend to go outside with the arms first, then pivot first of 15 degrees and then pushaway is best. And it is not a question only of WHEN to start the pushaway - it is also the speed at which you do both movements. You want to blend them so that the shaft tracks back on plane. Going too fast or too slowly with one or the other will cause you to be out of synch.
[/quote]

Jim

This correlates with what I feel and see on camera. I'm definitely a hands can move out too fast takeaway. What you say about the speed of the movements makes perfect sense to me

What do you define as an on plane shaft? Extension line from club head or grip end always pointing at the extended incline plane line/ball target line?
[/quote]

I think you really need in person explanation on a plane board to truly explain the plane concept - no way the written word on a forum will do.

But since we are taking takeaway swing segment - to hands at around waist height, on plane shaft means shaft angle at Address is maintained (angle to ground), and the "slot" or location in space the shaft is on, is also maintained, or at least close to those two elements. Again - a few minutes on a plane board clears up a lot of the confusion.

[Pinsplitter59]

Quote
"Our minds are programmed to think in 2D.."
endquote.
Nonsense.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Millbrook' timestamp='1418666762' post='10596403']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1418664583' post='10596239']
[quote name='Millbrook' timestamp='1418659991' post='10595879']
I believe it is simultaneous with the start of the backswing, you push away as you pivot.
I'm guessing a bit here because it would seem to me that you mention 8 o'clock because the arms will start to begin to lift here.
At this point the pushaway is complete but it has happened before then not as an action at that point.

My understanding or feel is that because it is about the hands relative to the torso as the torso turns the hands travel in a straight line rather than following the arc created by the torso. So this is a pushaway from the arc the hands would follow if they followed the turning torso but it begins immediately the torso begins to turn.

Open to correction as always.
[/quote]

Sorry, not correct. The hands move in an arc with the torso, never in a straight line. But they are moving away from the torso slightly as the torso turns. The arms/hands are being moved in an arc by the pivot, since they are connected to each other by the arms/shoulder joint AND the hands/arms are moving themselves slightly away from the torso. Our minds are programmed to think in 2D which is why folks struggle with this concept.
[/quote]

Thanks Jim, happy to be corrected. Always happy to be the daft laddie on the basis I'm probably not the only one with the misconception.
[/quote]

Yes - as I have said several times, the Illusion is hard to grasp, especially from the written word alone. I have worked with several forum members on this issue in person at my golf schools, and every single one of them told me at the start of the school that they believed they "got it" regarding the ASI, and after the three hour segment in the school that we do on the ASI, every single one of them told me that his original understanding of the Illusion was "not even close". A lot of golf swing theory is based on a 2D understanding, which is at best a slightly distorted view of what is actually happening, and at worse a completely false view. We have a whole Module devoted to the ASI in our new video program, that is almost two hours in length, and covers the issue in depth.

[mikah]

Sorry, not correct. The hands move in an arc with the torso, never in a straight line. But they are moving away from the torso slightly as the torso turns. The arms/hands are being moved in an arc by the pivot, since they are connected to each other by the arms/shoulder joint AND the hands/arms are moving themselves slightly away from the torso. Our minds are programmed to think in 2D which is why folks struggle with this concept.
Wow

Some concepts I havent thought about here

Could this give me an answer to how I can stop moving my knees and hips slightly when I putt?

MS,
Our feet, knees and hips (The Pivot), move in response to where we intend to move our hands.
Eg when we touch our toes, or when we eat.
Isnt that basic understanding? Why do we struggle with that?

If the hands/arms moved by the torso, ‘tail wagging the dog’, and our species wouldn’t have survived.

“If this freedom of head, arm, hip coordinated motion is [i]genetically embedded into Human Locomotion who are you to tell the deep subconscious that, no, head stays where it is, hips stay where they are[/i].”

[starsail85]

[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1418741878' post='10600485']
Sorry, not correct. The hands move in an arc with the torso, never in a straight line. But they are moving away from the torso slightly as the torso turns. The arms/hands are being moved in an arc by the pivot, since they are connected to each other by the arms/shoulder joint AND the hands/arms are moving themselves slightly away from the torso. Our minds are programmed to think in 2D which is why folks struggle with this concept.
Wow

Some concepts I havent thought about here

Could this give me an answer to how I can stop moving my knees and hips slightly when I putt?

MS,
Our feet, knees and hips (The Pivot), move in response to where we intend to move our hands.
Eg when we touch our toes, or when we eat.
Isnt that basic understanding? Why do we struggle with that?

If the hands/arms moved by the torso, ‘tail wagging the dog’, and our species wouldn’t have survived.

“If this freedom of head, arm, hip coordinated motion is [i]genetically embedded into Human Locomotion who are you to tell the deep subconscious that, no, head stays where it is, hips stay where they are[/i].”
[/quote]

Makes sense to me, I'm trying to eliminate any excess lower body movement with putting. Best thing that works for me so far is to feel like my feet are pressing into the green, especially the inside of my feel, then I try to bring the inside of my thighs closer together. Seems to hold things in place and I'm rolling it well

[starsail85]

Jim

What are your thoughts on grip pressure. I know it naturally increases so hold onto the club as it speeds in the downswing, but in the backswing should I be trying to maintain the same pressure to the top? The temptation I feel is to grab it and speed up to the top of the swing , and over run the pushaway move, i.e. over bend right arm


Seems to me another great thing about the pushaway move is that it makes the upward setting of the wrists that is often preached occur naturally as a reaction to the momentum of the hands. If you swing your arms so to speak then the upward setting is a forced move, at least in my present thinking