The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='fmzip' timestamp='1435636545' post='11860138']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1435636275' post='11860120']
Or - just purchase the ASI video which will be available shortly. That video lays out the total concept in real depth, and explores all of it's ramifications on all of the other swing parts, especially how the upper arms, wrists and right arm angle work in a good swing.
[/quote]

I am so looking forward to this video Jim. Do you think it will be up before the holiday weekend?
[/quote]

No, looking more like mid-July, maybe a bit sooner. Adding some new drills and info made a mess of the final editing process. It is worth the wait - the finished product will be so much better. I will know more by end of this week.

[starsail85]

Looking forward to the video Jim will be good to see things in a visual way

[ofortuna]

I've been spending a lot of time bringing the club up in front of me in that V shape and back down, then blending it with my pivot back and then forward.. occasionally checking it with my half plane board to see if the blending correct and on plane with the mental note of keeping my right wrist set backwards.. especially during the uncocking of the wrists. I hope that sentence doesn't seem too convoluted but it's difficult to describe precisely. I can imagine that Mr. Waldron must have spent an enormous amount of time editing his ebook.

The concept of the club basically going straight up and down with the body pivot supplying the "around" is really starting to sink in. It's definitely something completely new to me. Even from the Get Set position, I never knew how to get to the ball. I always thought that you were supposed to try to hold your angles and turn your body rapidly but I never got solid contact and often ended up with an out-to-in path. Knowing now that from Get Set, the wrists will uncock straight down (right wrist bent back) as the body turns, I can see how that action keeps the club on plane. Why hasn't anyone been able to explain this to me before?

[Half Flush]

[quote name='chigolfer1' timestamp='1435605906' post='11856582']
Hi,I have a pair of interrelated questions somewhat similar to the directly above. Because Jim seems to talk about this more than I've seen elsewhere, I thought it was appropriate for this thread. Also, before I begin, I just want to make clear this isn't about returning the shaft to the same plane as it was at setup. I fully understand that that isn't a necessary requirement. Nevertheless, there is a point where your shaft is obviously much too vertical at impact.

So, for some background, before I started taking some lessons I was one of the worst, steepest OTT swingers you've ever seen and would immediately lose all wrist angles after transition. My club would come from the outside and at impact my right forearm would be almost parallel to the ground with my wrists downc*cked at an almost 90 degree angle to reach the ball.

My questions are these. Now that I have a correct BS pivot and start down correctly I'm having a hard time understanding how to get my hands closer to my body near impact/when and how to straighten the right arm. Even in slow motion in a mirror this somewhat confuses me. When I tuck the right elbow in and get to when the forearm is parallel to the target line it makes sense. However, because I'm so used to having the right arm almost bent 90 degrees at impact, I'm not sure how to get from that position half way down to having the forearm pointing at (or near) the ball at impact instead of way out above the target line? Maybe I'm over thinking it but my (incorrect) swing DNA is so ingrained, nothing correct comes "naturally." My second question is regarding the downcoxking of the wrists. Because I used to do this so severely, I'm not sure if I need to consciously keep the upc*ck longer or if this should be a byproduct of other conditions being met? To give you an understanding of how this feels, I feel like my hands are incredibly far away from the ball (in the dimension from the target line to toe line along the ground) because I'm so used to practically having my hands above the ball at impact.

Hopefully this description and my questions can be deciphered as I realize its a bit confusing. One thought is that my shaft is still too steep and my body intuitively still reacts this way so that i don't miss the ball and if it was shallower I wouldn't have to consciously think of the above?
[/quote]

I believe the answer to both your questions lies in learning to use/ROTATE YOUR FOREARMS into impact. Sounds like you might be trying to use your pivot 100% to square the clubface and subsequently get steep in doing so. You then throw your wrists at the ball late so not to wiff it.

The club moves out towards target line and forward towards target via pivot AND forearm rotation - am I right Jim?

Also, swaying off the ball in BS can exacerbate this problem because it can cause an upper body dump on DS.

[Half Flush]

[quote name='Half Flush' timestamp='1435661311' post='11860884']
[quote name='chigolfer1' timestamp='1435605906' post='11856582']
Hi,I have a pair of interrelated questions somewhat similar to the directly above. Because Jim seems to talk about this more than I've seen elsewhere, I thought it was appropriate for this thread. Also, before I begin, I just want to make clear this isn't about returning the shaft to the same plane as it was at setup. I fully understand that that isn't a necessary requirement. Nevertheless, there is a point where your shaft is obviously much too vertical at impact.

So, for some background, before I started taking some lessons I was one of the worst, steepest OTT swingers you've ever seen and would immediately lose all wrist angles after transition. My club would come from the outside and at impact my right forearm would be almost parallel to the ground with my wrists downc*cked at an almost 90 degree angle to reach the ball.

My questions are these. Now that I have a correct BS pivot and start down correctly I'm having a hard time understanding how to get my hands closer to my body near impact/when and how to straighten the right arm. Even in slow motion in a mirror this somewhat confuses me. When I tuck the right elbow in and get to when the forearm is parallel to the target line it makes sense. However, because I'm so used to having the right arm almost bent 90 degrees at impact, I'm not sure how to get from that position half way down to having the forearm pointing at (or near) the ball at impact instead of way out above the target line? Maybe I'm over thinking it but my (incorrect) swing DNA is so ingrained, nothing correct comes "naturally." My second question is regarding the downcoxking of the wrists. Because I used to do this so severely, I'm not sure if I need to consciously keep the upc*ck longer or if this should be a byproduct of other conditions being met? To give you an understanding of how this feels, I feel like my hands are incredibly far away from the ball (in the dimension from the target line to toe line along the ground) because I'm so used to practically having my hands above the ball at impact.

Hopefully this description and my questions can be deciphered as I realize its a bit confusing. One thought is that my shaft is still too steep and my body intuitively still reacts this way so that i don't miss the ball and if it was shallower I wouldn't have to consciously think of the above?
[/quote]

I believe the answer to both your questions lies in learning to use/ROTATE YOUR FOREARMS into impact. Sounds like you might be trying to use your pivot 100% to square the clubface and subsequently get steep in doing so. You then throw your wrists at the ball late so no to wiff it.

The club moves out towards target line and forward towards target via pivot AND forearm rotation - am I right Jim?

Also, swaying off the ball in BS can exacerbate this problem because it can cause an upper body dump on DS.

[/quote]

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1435638534' post='11860298']
Looking forward to the video Jim will be good to see things in a visual way
[/quote]

Yes - and watching the ASI video, preferably more than once, will very likely uproot at least 95% of the Illusion - if not 100% - from your subconscious mind.

It really is the final answer for folks who either suck their arms inside on the backswing or who disconnect and swing their arms across mid-line on the forward swing, or both.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='ofortuna' timestamp='1435639550' post='11860376']
I've been spending a lot of time bringing the club up in front of me in that V shape and back down, then blending it with my pivot back and then forward.. occasionally checking it with my half plane board to see if the blending correct and on plane with the mental note of keeping my right wrist set backwards.. especially during the uncocking of the wrists. I hope that sentence doesn't seem too convoluted but it's difficult to describe precisely. I can imagine that Mr. Waldron must have spent an enormous amount of time editing his ebook.

The concept of the club basically going straight up and down with the body pivot supplying the "around" is really starting to sink in. It's definitely something completely new to me. Even from the Get Set position, I never knew how to get to the ball. I always thought that you were supposed to try to hold your angles and turn your body rapidly but I never got solid contact and often ended up with an out-to-in path. Knowing now that from Get Set, the wrists will uncock straight down (right wrist bent back) as the body turns, I can see how that action keeps the club on plane. Why hasn't anyone been able to explain this to me before?
[/quote]

Probably because most golf teachers still do not understand the golf swing from a true 3D perspective, and most certainly do not understand the ASI!

What squares the face is a blend of wrists un-c0cking, forearms rotating and hips, core and especially chest/shoulder girdle rotating, along with rightward tilting of the spine.

[ofortuna]

I'm hitting the ball way better but I think I still have some arm throw, especially with the woods and driver. Otherwise, it feels so cramped at impact. I remember in the ebook you say something to the effect of from Get Set, your hands stays connected to your right knee to impact. This makes sense logically that if your hands are flying past your knee, you are probably throwing your arms but it is very difficult to do for me. When I try connecting my hands to lower body I end up with punch shots with my irons and it seems impossible with woods.

[mc3jack]

[quote name='ofortuna' timestamp='1435772150' post='11870114']
I'm hitting the ball way better but I think I still have some arm throw, especially with the woods and driver. Otherwise, it feels so cramped at impact. I remember in the ebook you say something to the effect of from Get Set, your hands stays connected to your right knee to impact. This makes sense logically that if your hands are flying past your knee, you are probably throwing your arms but it is very difficult to do for me. When I try connecting my hands to lower body I end up with punch shots with my irons and it seems impossible with woods.
[/quote]

Remember . . . you're using a pivot-driven swing now. The quality of your swings from now on will come from how well you set-up, transition and pivot. Go to the pivot section of the ebook and pay close attention to what Jim teaches. The better you get at it (tilting and pivoting) the easier your arms come along for the ride.

[mc3jack]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1435676486' post='11862098']
[quote name='ofortuna' timestamp='1435639550' post='11860376']
I've been spending a lot of time bringing the club up in front of me in that V shape and back down, then blending it with my pivot back and then forward.. occasionally checking it with my half plane board to see if the blending correct and on plane with the mental note of keeping my right wrist set backwards.. especially during the uncocking of the wrists. I hope that sentence doesn't seem too convoluted but it's difficult to describe precisely. I can imagine that Mr. Waldron must have spent an enormous amount of time editing his ebook.

The concept of the club basically going straight up and down with the body pivot supplying the "around" is really starting to sink in. It's definitely something completely new to me. Even from the Get Set position, I never knew how to get to the ball. I always thought that you were supposed to try to hold your angles and turn your body rapidly but I never got solid contact and often ended up with an out-to-in path. Knowing now that from Get Set, the wrists will uncock straight down (right wrist bent back) as the body turns, I can see how that action keeps the club on plane. Why hasn't anyone been able to explain this to me before?
[/quote]

Probably because most golf teachers still do not understand the golf swing from a true 3D perspective, and most certainly do not understand the ASI!

What squares the face is a blend of wrists un-c0cking, forearms rotating and hips, core and especially chest/shoulder girdle rotating, along with rightward tilting of the spine.
[/quote]

Physics guys have spent a lot of time around the hookah philosophizing about perceiving multiple dimensions, and one of the main schools of thought is that we humans 'see' the world in 2D and rely on heuristics to comprehend 3D. Our minds (which already get images upside down from the lenses in our eyes and then 'flip' them) perceive 3D only in objects and scenes we already know are 3D or are similar. A good example are 3D street drawing illusions. They are really cool, but they only work when depicting scenes similar to what people have already seen. Babies don't comprehend 3D until they are old enough to grasp objects and look behind them (where the third dimension is obscured).

This dovetails with some tenets of the ASI for me . . . Jim teaches that if you involve your CM in the swing, it invariably induces a flinch. Could this be reverting to 2D perception, and then grabbing onto one of the dimensions, to the detriment of the other two?

While unlearning the ASI, early on I succumbed to just changing horizontal motion with the arms into vertical motion. Still thinking 2D, just changing the single dimension error from horizontal to vertical. Just one example of how 2D creates swing failure. There are many, many others.

And what about all those guys drawing lines on video? People love it. Because it's 2D, of course. The truth is, there are NO straight lines in a golf swing. Staring at the ball? That white dot is one-dimensional perception. Stare at it long enough and our bodies can't even attempt a reliable motion in 3D.

Understanding the golf swing from a 3D perspective, as Jim puts it, isn't really possible as a technical swing function. That's why he teaches mind-focus on anything BUT how we're swinging during execution. And especially not on the one-dimensional ball.

3D golf is a belief function, like picking up dice for the first time and discovering there are more numbers we can't see. Once our brains know they are cubes, we know we can toss the dice and play the game. Once we accept and understand 1 and 2D concepts are what cause most golf fails, golf becomes a fly your ball game, not a 'how do it hit it?' game. Remember, our ball flight is in 3D, too.

Getting our brains to get it requires mental work that's a huge part of Jim's teaching, and why most aren't going to 'get it' without instruction or at minimum, careful study of Jim's ebook, Great Shot. Just sayin', guys. Teaching ourselves is a fail mostly not because we suck. It's because we humans just see the world in 2D and use beliefs to create our reality. For golfers, 1 and 2D plus a ton of illusions are most people's reality.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='ofortuna' timestamp='1435772150' post='11870114']
I'm hitting the ball way better but I think I still have some arm throw, especially with the woods and driver. Otherwise, it feels so cramped at impact. I remember in the ebook you say something to the effect of from Get Set, your hands stays connected to your right knee to impact. This makes sense logically that if your hands are flying past your knee, you are probably throwing your arms but it is very difficult to do for me. When I try connecting my hands to lower body I end up with punch shots with my irons and it seems impossible with woods.
[/quote]

The idea behind that piece of swing "model" theory is to link up your lower body pivot with your upper body pivot/ arms/hands Triangle. I first heard about that concept from Tom Weiskopf, who told me about a lesson he had from Ben Hogan, who advocated that mental image of a rod connecting the right hand and the right knee from P6 to impact. But remember - it is a piece of swing theory, NOT the same thing as your body actually doing it at full speed swings. I think the common mistake that many golfers make - especially those who are totally self-directed (not using professional lesson feedback) - is to conflate swing theory with swing fact. I am going to start a thread on the mental game next week on precisely this and other related issues since I believe it is a toxic to good golf and very widespread mis-perception.

I mean simply this: there is - at first - a large gap between intellectually knowing what your body and club "should" be doing, and actually achieving that better body and club motion. I call it the Execution Gap and it is a really big deal in golf instruction. That gap needs to be filled - and it is filled with many different approaches, drills, exercises, training aids, professional feedback, video, etc all for one primary purpose - for you to have a "light bulb" moment of Deep Insight about that swing change. As soon as that light bulb goes off, that merely intellectual theory has been translated into your subconscious mind Swing Map, which is the really essential step toward forming a dominant habit.

What you are describing in general terms is fairly common when first learning to use your pivot more. Sounds like maybe you are not releasing the club, perhaps? Might want to put some Feel Channel awareness on your grip pressure, and forearms. You want a "free-wheeling" release of wrists un-c0cking and forearms rotating, blended into your Pivot Thrust. One way to actually deliberately hit a punch shot is to simply tighten your grip pressure, only do a half a wrist c0ck, and tighten your arm pressures, and then Pivot Thrust about 10% faster than normal speed, and you will hit it super low.

Meaning don't conflate connected upper arms with tension in your wrists and forearms. Super-connected arms from P6 to impact is an effect - not something you "do". It will happen if your pivot and tilt correctly and simply do nothing to throw your arms across mid-line with arm muscle power.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='mc3jack' timestamp='1435775614' post='11870512']
[quote name='ofortuna' timestamp='1435772150' post='11870114']
I'm hitting the ball way better but I think I still have some arm throw, especially with the woods and driver. Otherwise, it feels so cramped at impact. I remember in the ebook you say something to the effect of from Get Set, your hands stays connected to your right knee to impact. This makes sense logically that if your hands are flying past your knee, you are probably throwing your arms but it is very difficult to do for me. When I try connecting my hands to lower body I end up with punch shots with my irons and it seems impossible with woods.
[/quote]

Remember . . . you're using a pivot-driven swing now. The quality of your swings from now on will come from how well you set-up, transition and pivot. Go to the pivot section of the ebook and pay close attention to what Jim teaches. The better you get at it (tilting and pivoting) the easier your arms come along for the ride.
[/quote]

Correct. But remember -"arms coming along for the ride" does not mean slow arms. It means the upper arms NOT moving themselves across mid-line from P6 until just after impact, and it means when they do cross mid-line, it is 100% due to pivot momentum, not arm muscles moving the arms independently of the pivot. You want arms moving really fast - as long as you can stay in good Balance and with good wrist c0ck release timing - but moving fast because they are connected to your pivot via upper arms/shoulder girdle sockets.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='mc3jack' timestamp='1435779433' post='11870956']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1435676486' post='11862098']
[quote name='ofortuna' timestamp='1435639550' post='11860376']
I've been spending a lot of time bringing the club up in front of me in that V shape and back down, then blending it with my pivot back and then forward.. occasionally checking it with my half plane board to see if the blending correct and on plane with the mental note of keeping my right wrist set backwards.. especially during the uncocking of the wrists. I hope that sentence doesn't seem too convoluted but it's difficult to describe precisely. I can imagine that Mr. Waldron must have spent an enormous amount of time editing his ebook.

The concept of the club basically going straight up and down with the body pivot supplying the "around" is really starting to sink in. It's definitely something completely new to me. Even from the Get Set position, I never knew how to get to the ball. I always thought that you were supposed to try to hold your angles and turn your body rapidly but I never got solid contact and often ended up with an out-to-in path. Knowing now that from Get Set, the wrists will uncock straight down (right wrist bent back) as the body turns, I can see how that action keeps the club on plane. Why hasn't anyone been able to explain this to me before?
[/quote]

Probably because most golf teachers still do not understand the golf swing from a true 3D perspective, and most certainly do not understand the ASI!

What squares the face is a blend of wrists un-c0cking, forearms rotating and hips, core and especially chest/shoulder girdle rotating, along with rightward tilting of the spine.
[/quote]

Physics guys have spent a lot of time around the hookah philosophizing about perceiving multiple dimensions, and one of the main schools of thought is that we humans 'see' the world in 2D and rely on heuristics to comprehend 3D. Our minds (which already get images upside down from the lenses in our eyes and then 'flip' them) perceive 3D only in objects and scenes we already know are 3D or are similar. A good example are 3D street drawing illusions. They are really cool, but they only work when depicting scenes similar to what people have already seen. Babies don't comprehend 3D until they are old enough to grasp objects and look behind them (where the third dimension is obscured).

This dovetails with some tenets of the ASI for me . . . Jim teaches that if you involve your CM in the swing, it invariably induces a flinch. Could this be reverting to 2D perception, and then grabbing onto one of the dimensions, to the detriment of the other two?

While unlearning the ASI, early on I succumbed to just changing horizontal motion with the arms into vertical motion. Still thinking 2D, just changing the single dimension error from horizontal to vertical. Just one example of how 2D creates swing failure. There are many, many others.

And what about all those guys drawing lines on video? People love it. Because it's 2D, of course. The truth is, there are NO straight lines in a golf swing. Staring at the ball? That white dot is one-dimensional perception. Stare at it long enough and our bodies can't even attempt a reliable motion in 3D.

Understanding the golf swing from a 3D perspective, as Jim puts it, isn't really possible as a technical swing function. That's why he teaches mind-focus on anything BUT how we're swinging during execution. And especially not on the one-dimensional ball.

3D golf is a belief function, like picking up dice for the first time and discovering there are more numbers we can't see. Once our brains know they are cubes, we know we can toss the dice and play the game. Once we accept and understand 1 and 2D concepts are what cause most golf fails, golf becomes a fly your ball game, not a 'how do it hit it?' game. Remember, our ball flight is in 3D, too.

Getting our brains to get it requires mental work that's a huge part of Jim's teaching, and why most aren't going to 'get it' without instruction or at minimum, careful study of Jim's ebook, Great Shot. Just sayin', guys. Teaching ourselves is a fail mostly not because we suck. It's because we humans just see the world in 2D and use beliefs to create our reality. For golfers, 1 and 2D plus a ton of illusions are most people's reality.
[/quote]

Very well said. Even more importantly - most humans - (except apparently a few super geniuses) - "think" or "visualize" in two dimensions. Which is why I am constantly advising against trying to get better at ballstriking by using 2D thinking. It is almost always a very frustrating experience.

The ball-bound issue is a big one, as you said. One of the really deeply rooted causes of OTT, in my opinion, is that we don't "see" the ball as "down there" 5-6 feet lower than our eyes in the vertical dimension. We only see the "out" and so that is why many golfers struggle with an OTT move of right shoulder moving parallel to the ground, ie no rightward spine tilt blended in, and why they move the clubhead "out" immediately, but with little to no "down".

Yes - as soon as ANY straight line images enter your head, bad things will happen to your body and club motion. Focusing on the target line more than a little bit will trigger the Steering Impulse, which almost always causes a slice, push or push-slice for mid to high handicaps, ie a blocked release.

There is an ancient Tibetan Buddhist meditation technique that is all about seeing objects in the real world in 3D, ie with acute depth perception. It is an amazing practice for waking up the mind! After you get the hang of it, you will be surprised how often in your daily life you are only seeing the world in 2D.

[mc3jack]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1435782198' post='11871270']
[quote name='mc3jack' timestamp='1435775614' post='11870512']
[quote name='ofortuna' timestamp='1435772150' post='11870114']
I'm hitting the ball way better but I think I still have some arm throw, especially with the woods and driver. Otherwise, it feels so cramped at impact. I remember in the ebook you say something to the effect of from Get Set, your hands stays connected to your right knee to impact. This makes sense logically that if your hands are flying past your knee, you are probably throwing your arms but it is very difficult to do for me. When I try connecting my hands to lower body I end up with punch shots with my irons and it seems impossible with woods.
[/quote]

Remember . . . you're using a pivot-driven swing now. The quality of your swings from now on will come from how well you set-up, transition and pivot. Go to the pivot section of the ebook and pay close attention to what Jim teaches. The better you get at it (tilting and pivoting) the easier your arms come along for the ride.
[/quote]

Correct. But remember -"arms coming along for the ride" does not mean slow arms. It means the upper arms NOT moving themselves across mid-line from P6 until just after impact, and it means when they do cross mid-line, it is 100% due to pivot momentum, not arm muscles moving the arms independently of the pivot. You want arms moving really fast - as long as you can stay in good Balance and with good wrist c0ck release timing - but moving fast because they are connected to your pivot via upper arms/shoulder girdle sockets.
[/quote]

Excellent clarification, Jim. You also teach that there is a blending of the lower and upper torso sequence and speeds that have to be intuitively learned. In my case, if my upper torso turns faster than my lower, it *feels* like a throw even if my arm triangle hasn't moved toward my midline. As you know, Hogan taught Weiskopf the hands & right knee concept, and he also taught the harder he wanted to hit it, the faster he moved his right knee (using Hogan's awesome body connection). The idea being, as you also teach....if you can lower-pivot fast, you must help the upper pivot keep up the pace. I agree that the Weiskopf lesson was a probably a blending drill.

And by the way, where can a guy lay hands on your book, The Many Secrets of Ben Hogan?

[chigolfer1]

As a still trying to reform OTT'r, I love what you just described below as far as only perceiving the out but not down.


[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1435782793' post='11871362']
[quote name='mc3jack' timestamp='1435779433' post='11870956']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1435676486' post='11862098']
[quote name='ofortuna' timestamp='1435639550' post='11860376']
I've been spending a lot of time bringing the club up in front of me in that V shape and back down, then blending it with my pivot back and then forward.. occasionally checking it with my half plane board to see if the blending correct and on plane with the mental note of keeping my right wrist set backwards.. especially during the uncocking of the wrists. I hope that sentence doesn't seem too convoluted but it's difficult to describe precisely. I can imagine that Mr. Waldron must have spent an enormous amount of time editing his ebook.

The concept of the club basically going straight up and down with the body pivot supplying the "around" is really starting to sink in. It's definitely something completely new to me. Even from the Get Set position, I never knew how to get to the ball. I always thought that you were supposed to try to hold your angles and turn your body rapidly but I never got solid contact and often ended up with an out-to-in path. Knowing now that from Get Set, the wrists will uncock straight down (right wrist bent back) as the body turns, I can see how that action keeps the club on plane. Why hasn't anyone been able to explain this to me before?
[/quote]

Probably because most golf teachers still do not understand the golf swing from a true 3D perspective, and most certainly do not understand the ASI!

What squares the face is a blend of wrists un-c0cking, forearms rotating and hips, core and especially chest/shoulder girdle rotating, along with rightward tilting of the spine.
[/quote]

Physics guys have spent a lot of time around the hookah philosophizing about perceiving multiple dimensions, and one of the main schools of thought is that we humans 'see' the world in 2D and rely on heuristics to comprehend 3D. Our minds (which already get images upside down from the lenses in our eyes and then 'flip' them) perceive 3D only in objects and scenes we already know are 3D or are similar. A good example are 3D street drawing illusions. They are really cool, but they only work when depicting scenes similar to what people have already seen. Babies don't comprehend 3D until they are old enough to grasp objects and look behind them (where the third dimension is obscured).

This dovetails with some tenets of the ASI for me . . . Jim teaches that if you involve your CM in the swing, it invariably induces a flinch. Could this be reverting to 2D perception, and then grabbing onto one of the dimensions, to the detriment of the other two?

While unlearning the ASI, early on I succumbed to just changing horizontal motion with the arms into vertical motion. Still thinking 2D, just changing the single dimension error from horizontal to vertical. Just one example of how 2D creates swing failure. There are many, many others.

And what about all those guys drawing lines on video? People love it. Because it's 2D, of course. The truth is, there are NO straight lines in a golf swing. Staring at the ball? That white dot is one-dimensional perception. Stare at it long enough and our bodies can't even attempt a reliable motion in 3D.

Understanding the golf swing from a 3D perspective, as Jim puts it, isn't really possible as a technical swing function. That's why he teaches mind-focus on anything BUT how we're swinging during execution. And especially not on the one-dimensional ball.

3D golf is a belief function, like picking up dice for the first time and discovering there are more numbers we can't see. Once our brains know they are cubes, we know we can toss the dice and play the game. Once we accept and understand 1 and 2D concepts are what cause most golf fails, golf becomes a fly your ball game, not a 'how do it hit it?' game. Remember, our ball flight is in 3D, too.

Getting our brains to get it requires mental work that's a huge part of Jim's teaching, and why most aren't going to 'get it' without instruction or at minimum, careful study of Jim's ebook, Great Shot. Just sayin', guys. Teaching ourselves is a fail mostly not because we suck. It's because we humans just see the world in 2D and use beliefs to create our reality. For golfers, 1 and 2D plus a ton of illusions are most people's reality.
[/quote]

Very well said. Even more importantly - most humans - (except apparently a few super geniuses) - "think" or "visualize" in two dimensions. Which is why I am constantly advising against trying to get better at ballstriking by using 2D thinking. It is almost always a very frustrating experience.

The ball-bound issue is a big one, as you said. One of the really deeply rooted causes of OTT, in my opinion, is that we don't "see" the ball as "down there" 5-6 feet lower than our eyes in the vertical dimension. We only see the "out" and so that is why many golfers struggle with an OTT move of right shoulder moving parallel to the ground, ie no rightward spine tilt blended in, and why they move the clubhead "out" immediately, but with little to no "down".

Yes - as soon as ANY straight line images enter your head, bad things will happen to your body and club motion. Focusing on the target line more than a little bit will trigger the Steering Impulse, which almost always causes a slice, push or push-slice for mid to high handicaps, ie a blocked release.

There is an ancient Tibetan Buddhist meditation technique that is all about seeing objects in the real world in 3D, ie with acute depth perception. It is an amazing practice for waking up the mind! After you get the hang of it, you will be surprised how often in your daily life you are only seeing the world in 2D.
[/quote]

[ofortuna]

Thanks Mc3jack and Mr. Waldron for your insights!

Indeed I need to improve my pivot. I'm finding out that I have a tendency to lockup my knees/lower body and hit with my upper body at times. I'm not sure if this is a subconscious attempt to stay stable, balanced, or just happens when I get tired. Then I wonder why I'm getting locked up right after impact and not making a good extended follow through. Thinking of connecting my right knee with my hands makes me move the lower body.

As suggested, I'm reviewing the pivot portions of the Great Shot ebook.

[mc3jack]

___

There is an ancient Tibetan Buddhist meditation technique that is all about seeing objects in the real world in 3D, ie with acute depth perception. It is an amazing practice for waking up the mind! After you get the hang of it, you will be surprised how often in your daily life you are only seeing the world in 2D.
__


I think perhaps when athletes are 'in the zone' their minds have left the confines of 2D temporarily. And I think certain elite athletes function 'in 3D' . . . otherworldly 'court sense' in basketball players, Nicklaus 'going to the movies,' etc. The grousing about the greens at Chambers Bay . . . putting 'mechanics' looking for straight lines were lost. "The ball won't go straight!" Spieth didn't even look at the ball on short, straight putts. Why? Because thinking in straight lines introduces 1 and 2D to the consciousness, and out goes being in the 3D Zone.

I guess what I'm saying is though I've improved technically with Waldronology, *mentally* I've gone from hitting one 'freak shot' a round to two or three. And I've seen golfers with iffy swing mechanics suddenly hit a beauty, just by telling them to stare at a cloud in the sky and "make the ball fly at that cloud."

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='mc3jack' timestamp='1435784239' post='11871548']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1435782198' post='11871270']
[quote name='mc3jack' timestamp='1435775614' post='11870512']
[quote name='ofortuna' timestamp='1435772150' post='11870114']
I'm hitting the ball way better but I think I still have some arm throw, especially with the woods and driver. Otherwise, it feels so cramped at impact. I remember in the ebook you say something to the effect of from Get Set, your hands stays connected to your right knee to impact. This makes sense logically that if your hands are flying past your knee, you are probably throwing your arms but it is very difficult to do for me. When I try connecting my hands to lower body I end up with punch shots with my irons and it seems impossible with woods.
[/quote]

Remember . . . you're using a pivot-driven swing now. The quality of your swings from now on will come from how well you set-up, transition and pivot. Go to the pivot section of the ebook and pay close attention to what Jim teaches. The better you get at it (tilting and pivoting) the easier your arms come along for the ride.
[/quote]

Correct. But remember -"arms coming along for the ride" does not mean slow arms. It means the upper arms NOT moving themselves across mid-line from P6 until just after impact, and it means when they do cross mid-line, it is 100% due to pivot momentum, not arm muscles moving the arms independently of the pivot. You want arms moving really fast - as long as you can stay in good Balance and with good wrist c0ck release timing - but moving fast because they are connected to your pivot via upper arms/shoulder girdle sockets.
[/quote]

Excellent clarification, Jim. You also teach that there is a blending of the lower and upper torso sequence and speeds that have to be intuitively learned. In my case, if my upper torso turns faster than my lower, it *feels* like a throw even if my arm triangle hasn't moved toward my midline. As you know, Hogan taught Weiskopf the hands & right knee concept, and he also taught the harder he wanted to hit it, the faster he moved his right knee (using Hogan's awesome body connection). The idea being, as you also teach....if you can lower-pivot fast, you must help the upper pivot keep up the pace. I agree that the Weiskopf lesson was a probably a blending drill.

And by the way, where can a guy lay hands on your book, The Many Secrets of Ben Hogan?
[/quote]

Yes, I take it by "lower torso" you mean your Core? It is super important in the golf swing! It links up your lower body pivot (hips, knees, legs) with your upper torso/shoulder girdle, and also a source of stability and balance.

Yes - quite common to feel like the arms are crossing mid-line with a fast un-coiling of the pivot, which is why you need a close look at video to see what is objectively happening.

That book is on the back burner, too many other projects are ahead of it in line!

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='golfpros1' timestamp='1436071214' post='11889730']
wrist roller... guilty as charged. This is an interesting way of breaking apart the golf swing and will give it a try.
[/quote]

If by "wrist roller" you mean on takeaway - then yes, it s a flaw. You want some upper arm (and thus dependently forearm and
wrist rotation) during the backswing, but it should not occur until second half of backswing after most or even all of your
wrist c0ck has completed. Rolling during takeaway just radically opens the clubface and does nothing to shallow the shaft
plane.

[mc3jack]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1436121270' post='11891574']
[quote name='golfpros1' timestamp='1436071214' post='11889730']
wrist roller... guilty as charged. This is an interesting way of breaking apart the golf swing and will give it a try.
[/quote]

If by "wrist roller" you mean on takeaway - then yes, it s a flaw. You want some upper arm (and thus dependently forearm and
wrist rotation) during the backswing, but it should not occur until second half of backswing after most or even all of your
wrist c0ck has completed. Rolling during takeaway just radically opens the clubface and does nothing to shallow the shaft
plane.
[/quote]

Jim a while back you were advocating using the reverse overlap grip. Years of being a HoganClone occasionally gave me problems with the wrist-roller club-fanning move in the takeaway. Still does. Switching to reverse overlap really helps me get back on track, and seems to help groove the Joe Dante wrist break, too.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='mc3jack' timestamp='1436163786' post='11894554']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1436121270' post='11891574']
[quote name='golfpros1' timestamp='1436071214' post='11889730']
wrist roller... guilty as charged. This is an interesting way of breaking apart the golf swing and will give it a try.
[/quote]

If by "wrist roller" you mean on takeaway - then yes, it s a flaw. You want some upper arm (and thus dependently forearm and
wrist rotation) during the backswing, but it should not occur until second half of backswing after most or even all of your
wrist c0ck has completed. Rolling during takeaway just radically opens the clubface and does nothing to shallow the shaft
plane.
[/quote]

Jim a while back you were advocating using the reverse overlap grip. Years of being a HoganClone occasionally gave me problems with the wrist-roller club-fanning move in the takeaway. Still does. Switching to reverse overlap really helps me get back on track, and seems to help groove the Joe Dante wrist break, too.
[/quote]

Yes, I still teach the reverse overlap option for those students who choose to use the conventional tour pro grip. Most
though do better with the Power Grip, and part of that unique grip is using all ten fingers on the handle.


I don't recommend the Dante wrist setting method though - just the basic idea in that book of the importance of starting to set the wrists immediately during takeaway. I teach a blend of slight right wrist hinging with upward c0cking of both wrists

When blended into a proper pivot and arm pushaway, the clubshaft will track back on plane.

[Jasonic]

Hi Jim.

New to the thread, I actually read all weekend after hitting rock bottom at a range session. Just lost. Shank after shank. Chips, pitches if the driver had a hosel I would've hit it. So continued reading today probably half of the thread and it's really quite eye opening. I'm currently a playing to a 7 but my instructor is telling me my chipping and putting is a scratch to +1, driving is a 7 and irons, approach a 25!! Haha he get's so frustrated with me haha because he knows I should be hitting better than a 7 but my sequencing is awful. anyway, I'm a chronic fast hips, overrun, stuck OTT with decent timing half the time. So I'll post a 74 one day with good timing and an 82 the next because I'm all over the place with my irons mostly. he harps on me over and over and I just couldn't grasp the concept of dropping the hands down to halfway and then pivoting. Exactly what this thread is saying is what he's trying to teach me. Exactly saying the same things. Get arms in front etc...I know WHAT I WANT TO DO BUT JUST CANT SEE IT. The image you said of throwing the hands east and the hands/arms come DOWN first like chopping wood vertically (blending with pivot)...something about that just clicked. Went to the basement and hit a few 9/3 into a net with a PW pushing the 45 away and then VERTICALLY DROPPING IN FRONT and boom! There it was.....so basically just went to range for some real full shot practice and was just burning them off the center of every face with speed but no effort and completely in balance. It's a start and feels super weird but easy (yes!!!) but holy crap amazing. Thank you I cannot wait to show my pro tomorrow....do you have a link to the ebook as I cannot seem to find it. THANK YOU again and all the people chiming in here...I will update my progress....

[mc3jack]

Here's the link to Jim's incredible Great Shot manual. Look in the "Pro Shop" on the menu banner for his new video, also.

[url="http://www.balancepointgolf.com/index.php/pro-shop/e-books"]http://www.balancepo...ro-shop/e-books[/url]

[quote name='Jasonic' timestamp='1436324183' post='11907786']
Hi Jim.

New to the thread, I actually read all weekend after hitting rock bottom at a range session. Just lost. Shank after shank. Chips, pitches if the driver had a hosel I would've hit it. So continued reading today probably half of the thread and it's really quite eye opening. I'm currently a playing to a 7 but my instructor is telling me my chipping and putting is a scratch to +1, driving is a 7 and irons, approach a 25!! Haha he get's so frustrated with me haha because he knows I should be hitting better than a 7 but my sequencing is awful. anyway, I'm a chronic fast hips, overrun, stuck OTT with decent timing half the time. So I'll post a 74 one day with good timing and an 82 the next because I'm all over the place with my irons mostly. he harps on me over and over and I just couldn't grasp the concept of dropping the hands down to halfway and then pivoting. Exactly what this thread is saying is what he's trying to teach me. Exactly saying the same things. Get arms in front etc...I know WHAT I WANT TO DO BUT JUST CANT SEE IT. The image you said of throwing the hands east and the hands/arms come DOWN first like chopping wood vertically (blending with pivot)...something about that just clicked. Went to the basement and hit a few 9/3 into a net with a PW pushing the 45 away and then VERTICALLY DROPPING IN FRONT and boom! There it was.....so basically just went to range for some real full shot practice and was just burning them off the center of every face with speed but no effort and completely in balance. It's a start and feels super weird but easy (yes!!!) but holy crap amazing. Thank you I cannot wait to show my pro tomorrow....do you have a link to the ebook as I cannot seem to find it. THANK YOU again and all the people chiming in here...I will update my progress....
[/quote]

[Kiwi2]

Here is a trailer for Jim's video the Six Laws of Club Motion

http://youtu.be/eHjApKRTVJI

[fmzip]

Do we have a definitive date for the release of the video?? Eagerly awaiting

[Reasonability]

Jim - inside the ASI thread may be the worst place to ask this...especially right now given the pending release of videos (nice clip btw Kiwi!)....
If so please feel free to pass right on by this post - no hard feelings if so.

At some point if you could... I wonder what if any illusions and misconceptions you've uncovered by way of the short game - be it wedge play, perhaps even pitching, chipping, even putting.

I ask this because I have - and hear from others as well - who tend to suffer the shanks (for example) more often when swinging the shorter clubs. Have always wondered if in fact a missing ASI-related element is at least behind some of this by way of cause and effect.

Thanks for tolerating my rather broad and rambling questions about how your findings and teachings might also relate to less than fuller swings and/or shanking those wedges. Again if this is NOT the time and place for such a question.... please ignore this one. I'm clearly a little out of bounds with this question at this time and place.

[Kiwi2]

[quote name='fmzip' timestamp='1436358375' post='11908922']
Do we have a definitive date for the release of the video?? Eagerly awaiting
[/quote]
The Six Laws Video has been released.

The Arm Swing Illusion Video has been completed and is awaiting uploading by Jim's webmaster.
No definite date can be given as it is out of Jim's control but hopefully it will be a matter of days.

[fmzip]

[quote name='Kiwi2' timestamp='1436377469' post='11910890']
[quote name='fmzip' timestamp='1436358375' post='11908922']
Do we have a definitive date for the release of the video?? Eagerly awaiting
[/quote]
The Six Laws Video has been released.

The Arm Swing Illusion Video has been completed and is awaiting uploading by Jim's webmaster.
No definite date can be given as it is out of Jim's control but hopefully it will be a matter of days.
[/quote]

Mr Webmaster......Where are you? First sale, ready and waiting for the arm swing illusion

Thanks for the update, very excited to get this

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Jasonic' timestamp='1436324183' post='11907786']
Hi Jim.

New to the thread, I actually read all weekend after hitting rock bottom at a range session. Just lost. Shank after shank. Chips, pitches if the driver had a hosel I would've hit it. So continued reading today probably half of the thread and it's really quite eye opening. I'm currently a playing to a 7 but my instructor is telling me my chipping and putting is a scratch to +1, driving is a 7 and irons, approach a 25!! Haha he get's so frustrated with me haha because he knows I should be hitting better than a 7 but my sequencing is awful. anyway, I'm a chronic fast hips, overrun, stuck OTT with decent timing half the time. So I'll post a 74 one day with good timing and an 82 the next because I'm all over the place with my irons mostly. he harps on me over and over and I just couldn't grasp the concept of dropping the hands down to halfway and then pivoting. Exactly what this thread is saying is what he's trying to teach me. Exactly saying the same things. Get arms in front etc...I know WHAT I WANT TO DO BUT JUST CANT SEE IT. The image you said of throwing the hands east and the hands/arms come DOWN first like chopping wood vertically (blending with pivot)...something about that just clicked. Went to the basement and hit a few 9/3 into a net with a PW pushing the 45 away and then VERTICALLY DROPPING IN FRONT and boom! There it was.....so basically just went to range for some real full shot practice and was just burning them off the center of every face with speed but no effort and completely in balance. It's a start and feels super weird but easy (yes!!!) but holy crap amazing. Thank you I cannot wait to show my pro tomorrow....do you have a link to the ebook as I cannot seem to find it. THANK YOU again and all the people chiming in here...I will update my progress....
[/quote]

Hi J - nice to hear about your quick improvement! Pretty cool....

Sounds to me like a perfect explanation of a golfer who shifted from 2D thinking about the swing to a 3D perspective!

Which is really what the ASI and related illusions is all about. It is indeed one of the fastest ways to significantly
improve your ballstriking. OTT is one of most common Fatal Flaws caused by the ASI>

Please come us posted about any future insights and breakthroughs.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Reasonability' timestamp='1436367908' post='11909848']
Jim - inside the ASI thread may be the worst place to ask this...especially right now given the pending release of videos (nice clip btw Kiwi!)....
If so please feel free to pass right on by this post - no hard feelings if so.

At some point if you could... I wonder what if any illusions and misconceptions you've uncovered by way of the short game - be it wedge play, perhaps even pitching, chipping, even putting.

I ask this because I have - and hear from others as well - who tend to suffer the shanks (for example) more often when swinging the shorter clubs. Have always wondered if in fact a missing ASI-related element is at least behind some of this by way of cause and effect.

Thanks for tolerating my rather broad and rambling questions about how your findings and teachings might also relate to less than fuller swings and/or shanking those wedges. Again if this is NOT the time and place for such a question.... please ignore this one. I'm clearly a little out of bounds with this question at this time and place.
[/quote]

OTT move is one of the leading causes of the shanks. So the ASI as I posted above will certainly be a factor.

Another common cause of shanking with the wedges especially is that you have a lot of forward Spine Angle with the wedges.
If you lack a strong core/back - you can go into early extension much more easily to save your back - and shank city is the result.

There are no illusions that are unique to short game that I am aware of. Plenty of mis-perceptions and myths though!

Some having to do with tempo and rhythm differences compared to long game, for example.