hands at address..discussion

[iteachgolf]

Again Hogan and Tiger are different, never said other wise but both are acceptable. The original discussion was about a player who has arms hanging well inside their shoulders at address and how that would affect things. In my first post I stated how it affected handle height and plane angle and how more inside shoulders increases PA3 and would make you steeper AOA wise all else being equal


I didn't draw any lines on those photos. I just found it on google images. They were in response to Tyler about how Hogan's PA3 angle varied drastically throughout the bag to get the desired angle of attack and angle of approach. Not only in relation to the ground but also his spine angle (short irons are nearly 90* to his spine at impact while Driver is closer to 120*. I still don't think his lumbar spine angle changed much if any between those two photos, and even if the lines did intersect at the same point, two lines can intersect at the same point while not being on the same angle. If his lumbar spine in those two photos is basically the same yet the handle is further and higher off the ground and pointing higher on his torso I don't see how you can believe the angle is the same. [b] To see the angle take a look at the angle between where the line intersects his lumbar spine to where it intersects his belt, angle isn't even close to the same.[/b]

The photos I posted that you quoted were originally to show his wrist weren't fully uncocked at setup. You have to keep the context I posted the photos with the photos.

[tembolo1284]

this is becoming quite the juicy thread. Love it.

[tembolo1284]

iTeach what are the dangers if you get your hands too far outside the shoulders....reaching for it a bit too much?

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1368452156' post='7023844']
iTeach what are the dangers if you get your hands too far outside the shoulders....reaching for it a bit too much?
[/quote]

Thin shots. Very shallow AOA. No divots. To hit it solid path will have to be more in to out.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1368452622' post='7023874']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1368452156' post='7023844']
iTeach what are the dangers if you get your hands too far outside the shoulders....reaching for it a bit too much?
[/quote]

Thin shots. Very shallow AOA. No divots. To hit it solid path will have to be more in to out.
[/quote]

Ok. I must have overdone it then. Ugh.

[reflection]

This is a very interesting topic to me as I've been experimenting with my stance/address. One question that comes to mind is the manufacturer's lie angle. When addressing the ball, the position of the hands relative to your body as well as the cockiness of the left hand affect whether your club face lie angle is flat to the ground.

I'm wondering if anyone uses the lie angle as their gauge for how cocked their left wrist should be? As well as how upright or bent over they should be? Is this a valid test for someone is average height with average arm length using standard length/lie clubs? How do manufacturer's determine what is standard?

I'm 5'10" with a square proportion (in other words my wing span is also 5'10").

[iteachgolf]

Toe of the club will be slightly off the ground at setup in order to have correct lie angle at impact. Lie angle should be dynamically fitted but also keeping unmindful how you setup and what you're trying to do swing wise Many modern clubs are 3+* upright of clubs made in the 90s. Left wrist should be pretty level at setup

[Lefthook]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1368451360' post='7023780']
If his lumbar spine in those two photos is basically the same yet the handle is further and higher off the ground and pointing higher on his torso I don't see how you can believe the angle is the same. [b] To see the angle take a look at the angle between where the line intersects his lumbar spine to where it intersects his belt, angle isn't even close to the same.[/b]
[size=4][/quote][/size]

[size=4]The lumbar spine angle isn't the same, but that was not what I was asking about either. I was addressing the angle between his lumbar spine and the shaft. When I compare them using pen and paper I am not able to separate them. [/size]

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='Lefthook' timestamp='1368455840' post='7024232']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1368451360' post='7023780']
If his lumbar spine in those two photos is basically the same yet the handle is further and higher off the ground and pointing higher on his torso I don't see how you can believe the angle is the same. [b] To see the angle take a look at the angle between where the line intersects his lumbar spine to where it intersects his belt, angle isn't even close to the same.[/b]
[/quote]

The lumbar spine angle isn't the same, but that was not what I was asking about either. I was addressing the angle between his lumbar spine and the shaft. When I compare them using pen and paper I am not able to separate them.
[/quote]

You're missing the point of what I wrote. If the extension of the shaft plane bisects the same part of the spine but a different part of the hip then the angle is different. Look at the wedge formed by where the shaft bisects the spine and where it bisects his belt, its obviously different. If the angle between his shaft and lumbar spine were the same then the wedge there would be the same (just tilted) since only change would be amount of hip bend between driver and iron. If the angle were the same it would bisect at both points and not just one. If I place a card on the red line drawn on his spine on his driver and leave it in place and simply scroll down it pretty much perfectly matches his spine on the iron.

[jblacoustics]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1368446615' post='7023402']
[quote name='jblacoustics' timestamp='1368420306' post='7022524']
From page 31 of the book Maximum Golf by John Schlee:

[attachment=1679466:bookschleegrip2.jpg]
[/quote]

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3J7set9EW8&feature=youtu.be[/media]

Here is the grip exactly as shown going from fully cocked to fully uncocked. No big angle
[/quote]

I think we may have a different flexibility of the L wrist. So, either (1) your L wrist is super flexible, (2) you are relaxing your index and middle fingers when you fully uncock, (3) the butt of the grip slips up thru the palm pad, or combination of two or all of the above.

When I grip the club exactly as Schlee suggests, and then fully uncock my L wrist, there is still a big angle left. To make sure this happens especially during the swing, I make sure nos. (2) and (3) above don't happen.

And btw, your L elbow is not kinked...

[iteachgolf]

And it wouldn't be kinked at impact. Whether my left arm is bent or not wouldn't change that when I uncock my wrist fully shaft is virtually inline with my left forearm. Certainly not even close to a big angle. Everyone at home can try the exact same thing and see their results. I'm not some freak with super wrist.

Club doesn't move in my hand. Which is why is gripped it uncocked my wrist, recocked my wrist, and then opened my hand. To prove its gripped the same way the entire time, my hand is facing camera and you can see grip didn't slide up palm and I did relax my grip. Then I did it all over again to prove it. There is no trick there.

[jblacoustics]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1368459824' post='7024634']
And it wouldn't be kinked at impact. Whether my left arm is bent or not wouldn't change that when I uncock my wrist fully shaft is virtually inline with my left arm. Certainly not even close to a big angle. Everyone at home can try the exact same thing and see their results. I'm not some freak with super wrist.

Club doesn't move in my hand. Which is why is gripped it uncocked my wrist, recocked my wrist, and then opened my hand. To prove its gripped the same way the entire time, my hand is facing camera and you can see grip didn't slide up palm and I did relax my grip. Then I did it all over again to prove it. There is no trick there.
[/quote]

Will try to do my own video. When I fully uncock it, angle between my L arm and shaft is around 140degrees. Since that's what I want to happen at impact, I also do it at address. Nice way for me to get back to or near shaft plane.

[jblacoustics]

Haha, got it...I think you have a different hand dimensions than mine. If your fingers are exactly parallel/straight line/180deg to your L arm, your knuckles are diagonal instead of perpendicular to L arm...mine is not exactly perp but almost perp.

[iteachgolf]

 

 

to show no tricks and my normal hand

[tylerdurden]

lol nice normal hand

if you decide to stop teaching...

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZxX3-rJoNI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZxX3-rJoNI[/url]

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='jblacoustics' timestamp='1368460849' post='7024770']
Haha, got it...I think you have a different hand dimensions than mine. If your fingers are exactly parallel/straight line/180deg to your L arm, your knuckles are diagonal instead of perpendicular to L arm...mine is not exactly perp but almost perp.
[/quote]

jb now you calling iTeach a mutant? Come ooooooooon!

[iteachgolf]

To have the club 90* to your left arm your left wrist would have to be cocked. In the photos you posted from Schlee's book his left wrist is cocked fully, not level.

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1368462094' post='7025000']
lol nice normal hand

if you decide to stop teaching...

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZxX3-rJoNI[/media]
[/quote]

haha well I'm being accused of doing tricks or having a mutant hand.

[JPGolf FL]

Much more likely that you have a mutated hand than jbl not understanding the concept of pa3 angle. Has to be.

[CSagan]

Need to work on your deadlift grip Daniel.

[joeunc]

[media=]

[/media]

 

 

to show no tricks and my normal hand

 

 

Quick aside Dan , it looks like you hold the club in your left parallel across the base of the fingers and then wrap the hand over and not angled from base of pinky up to first joint of first finger like Geoff is saying he teaches. Is that correct, or was this just demonstration purpose?

 

thanks

Joe

[iteachgolf]

That's not how I grip it. It's how JBL claims you can grip it, fully uncock your left wrist, and still have a large angle between the shaft and your forearm.

[tembolo1284]

iTeach I find I can uncock my wrist (pinky more toward arm) much much more than c0ck it (thumb toward arm)

What's up with that. To get any real cocking I almost feel like I have to also cup my wrist.

Maybe i'm the one with the mutation.

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1368476610' post='7026930']
iTeach I find I can uncock my wrist (pinky more toward arm) much much more than c0ck it (thumb toward arm)

What's up with that. To get any real cocking I almost feel like I have to also cup my wrist.

Maybe i'm the one with the mutation.
[/quote]

can c0ck get to 90*? Most can uncock more than they can c0ck their wrist. ROM is greater that direction

[Lefthook]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1368457011' post='7024366']
[size=4]You're missing the point of what I wrote. If the extension of the shaft plane bisects the same part of the spine but a different part of the hip then the angle is different. Look at the wedge formed by where the shaft bisects the spine and where it bisects his belt, its obviously different. If the angle between his shaft and lumbar spine were the same then the wedge there would be the same (just tilted) since only change would be amount of hip bend between driver and iron. If the angle were the same it would bisect at both points and not just one. If I place a card on the red line drawn on his spine on his driver and leave it in place and simply scroll down it pretty much perfectly matches his spine on the iron.[/size]
[/quote]

Why do you prefer to look at the belt line when you can measure the angle between shaft and spine directly? The flexibility in the lumbar region is huge and it is easy to see that Hogan's belt has a very similar forward lean with both clubs even though the spine angle is very different.

I guess I'll just file my questions in the "not answered" section and move on...

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1368477370' post='7027042']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1368476610' post='7026930']
iTeach I find I can uncock my wrist (pinky more toward arm) much much more than c0ck it (thumb toward arm)

What's up with that. To get any real cocking I almost feel like I have to also cup my wrist.

Maybe i'm the one with the mutation.
[/quote]

can c0ck get to 90*? Most can uncock more than they can c0ck their wrist. ROM is greater that direction
[/quote]

it's laughable. Uncocking is WAY more. When I c0ck you can see my veins popping and knuckles coming up i'm tryyyyyyying to get all I can out of it.

Lord savior. I need to work on my wrist flexibility.

Should I just stick to tennis?

[attachment=1680190:uncocked.jpg]

[attachment=1680192:cocked.jpg]

[tembolo1284]

yikes...my glove tan is starting to look ridiculous too.

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='Lefthook' timestamp='1368477662' post='7027082']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1368457011' post='7024366']
[size=4]You're missing the point of what I wrote. If the extension of the shaft plane bisects the same part of the spine but a different part of the hip then the angle is different. Look at the wedge formed by where the shaft bisects the spine and where it bisects his belt, its obviously different. If the angle between his shaft and lumbar spine were the same then the wedge there would be the same (just tilted) since only change would be amount of hip bend between driver and iron. If the angle were the same it would bisect at both points and not just one. If I place a card on the red line drawn on his spine on his driver and leave it in place and simply scroll down it pretty much perfectly matches his spine on the iron.[/size]
[/quote]

Why do you prefer to look at the belt line when you can measure the angle between shaft and spine directly? The flexibility in the lumbar region is huge and it is easy to see that Hogan's belt has a very similar forward lean with both clubs even though the spine angle is very different.

I guess I'll just file my questions in the "not answered" section and move on...
[/quote]

Again if I put a straightedge on the driver photo and scroll down it matches the other photo almost exactly. You say lumbar spine is drastically different. I disagree. l measured 60* on the iron and 61* on the driver (which matches the 29* whoever made the photo found). I don't draw lines on 2d images normally but you insisted. I'd call a 1* difference not very different. So his spine angle is roughly the same yet handle is higher and arms are further out. Explain how that angle is the same? The whole point is his PA3 angle varied greatly throughout the bag to facilitate different angle of approaches and angle of attacks.

[iteachgolf]

I got nearly a 10* difference in shaft angle in relation to spine when measured though

[iteachgolf]

 

Since people like to call me a liar