At what age are JGS rankings accurate/relevant?

CTgolfCTgolf Members Posts: 440 ✭✭
Was chatting with a parent of a well-ranked (top 100 JGS) boy in class of 2023. He thinks the rankings aren’t really reflective of the talent out there for another 2 years, when he would be a sophomore in high school.



Does this make sense? I would have thought college coaches would be eyeing the rankings of 8th graders and freshmen already to track progress over time?
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Comments

  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,115 ✭✭
    12-13 is when the top players become relevant to college coaches. The college coaches will start tracking as 7th graders with the higher ranked kids. It gets tricky with that age group because each one of the boy's physically develop at different rates. I don't think a lot of coaches have much contact with many of the players. There are a handful of top ranked kids that are more mature and physically developed than others. Right now you have 8th graders that are 5'10"+ and have full beards. You have others that are 5'2" and have high pitched voices still. Coaches have an easier time making decisions on the kids that are already physically mature. They definitely start charting them and paying attention.



    As for the Bulk of the recruiting I would say it is in between the kids 9th and 10th grade years. Most of the kids have filled out, haired up, and have a deeper voice at this time. Easier to narrow the list down more and make better decisions.



    Tracking and making a decision on a kid are two different things.
  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,069 ✭✭
    edited Oct 19, 2018 #3
    I agree with Heavy on this one there is no way they know who the best recruits are going to be in 2023 . Kids grow at different rates and this causes problem for sure. They are well aware as most people probably are that the top ranked kids in 2023 class today will most likely not be the top ranked kid in 4- 5 years.



    A lot people have told me rankings do not matter. We all know they do if we like or not and the way they rank is not always fair. I had a neighbor of a high ranked boy who went on to play D1. Great kid but the dad told me that what ever you do don't push for a high ranking early. The reason is there is a lot pressure to stay at the top and it is not easy to do. He had the unfortunate of being a top ranked kid (top 100 JGS) that slipped later on and it made harder to get recruited. Still got recruited and is playing on a D1 team.
  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,115 ✭✭
    tiger1873 wrote:
    I agree with Heavy on this one there is no way they know who the best recruits are going to be in 2023 . Kids grow at different rates and this causes problem for sure. They are well aware as most people probably are that the top ranked kids in 2023 class today will most likely not be the top ranked kid in 4- 5 years.



    A lot people have told me rankings do not matter. We all know they do if we like or not and the way they rank is not always fair. I had a neighbor of a high ranked boy who went on to play D1. Great kid but the dad told me that what ever you do don't push for a high ranking early. The reason is there is a lot pressure to stay at the top and it is not easy to do. He had the unfortunate of being a top ranked kid (top 100 JGS) that slipped later on and it made harder to get recruited. Still got recruited and is playing on a D1 team.




    If you are number 1 there is only one way to go. Down.
  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,069 ✭✭
    was looking around at the JGS rankings and noticed that in the TOP 50 there are very few kids younger then 2022



    For the Girls there was only 1 and that is Alexo Pano who had a lot success but still is only ranked 19 ( I think this should be higher)



    For the boys I think I counted 2 on the first page.



    The second page didn't look like there was that many more either. From the looks of it it seems that on average kids improve as a group the older they get and ranking seems to peak out in their senior year. From what I can tell from this is it's in the sophomore year when things really starts to shake things up. The other thing that probably plays into this the length of the courses that keep getting longer.



    I would bet any kid who gets on the first page of these rankings in their junior year will have no problem with a scholarship.
  • iteachgolfiteachgolf Members Posts: 16,808 ✭✭
    tiger1873 wrote:


    I agree with Heavy on this one there is no way they know who the best recruits are going to be in 2023 . Kids grow at different rates and this causes problem for sure. They are well aware as most people probably are that the top ranked kids in 2023 class today will most likely not be the top ranked kid in 4- 5 years.



    A lot people have told me rankings do not matter. We all know they do if we like or not and the way they rank is not always fair. I had a neighbor of a high ranked boy who went on to play D1. Great kid but the dad told me that what ever you do don't push for a high ranking early. The reason is there is a lot pressure to stay at the top and it is not easy to do. He had the unfortunate of being a top ranked kid (top 100 JGS) that slipped later on and it made harder to get recruited. Still got recruited and is playing on a D1 team.




    The top schools are almost done recruiting 2021 and absolutely are recruiting 2022 and 2023. The top kids in 2023 are already shooting under par from 6500+ yards. Pretty easy to tell that they will be good.
  • JDee1935JDee1935 Members Posts: 16 ✭✭
    CTgolf wrote:


    Was chatting with a parent of a well-ranked (top 100 JGS) boy in class of 2023. He thinks the rankings aren't really reflective of the talent out there for another 2 years, when he would be a sophomore in high school.



    Does this make sense? I would have thought college coaches would be eyeing the rankings of 8th graders and freshmen already to track progress over time?




    JGS is not really accurate, nor looked @ by colleges. WAGR, Golfweek, AJGA, are the top ranking systems.
  • DGord10DGord10 ClubWRX Posts: 38 ClubWRX
    edited Dec 10, 2018 #8
    I have a 13yr old in 2023 and this year is the first year that we paid any attention to JGS. Once I figured out how it worked, a couple issues jumped out at me - if a 13yr old plays in age appropriate tournaments from age appropriate yardages, it is almost impossible to move all that far into the top 100 (for 2023), even if they are shooting low 70s/mid-70s and winning the tournament. JGS gives almost no weight to winning and most of the weight to scoring differential and so at young ages, the age appropriate distances produce "ratings" of 67.5-69 and so it is hard to drop lower in the rankings or make up for the inevitable bad rounds unless the kid is shooting -2/-3 consistently. For instance for my son, in one tournament he shot +6/-1 for +5 overall and won the tournament but it hurt his scoring differential because the rating was 67.4 (par 72) from 5800. He was more helped by shooting +15 from 6700 and coming in 81st in a tournament primarily for 16-18yr olds because the rating was lower and the strength of field much better.



    Since my son is a pretty small kid (on average 4-5 inches shorter than the bigger kids in 2023 let alone 2022, 2021, etc.) we decided that it was best to focus on appropriate distances and learning how to win and shoot under par rather than too many tournaments at longer distances with the much older kids. As a result, my son made the top 100 (maybe got as low as 90)(for class of 2023) but kept bouncing above and then back below and now out and will drop during the winter probably a good bit since he won't be playing in tournaments. We could have tried to game it much more and find more tournaments at say 6300 or so, but it just didn't seem worth it at 13 to screw around. Next year though we will be more selective, play in a few AJGAs and look at factors that will be more beneficial for JGS, particularly if my son gets a bit of a grow spurt.



    So....based on what I've seen, I think at 13, JGS tells part of the story - perhaps an early part that gets skewed towards to bigger kids or the kids that are 6-8 months older but still in the same class - clearly the kids up top are great golfers but there are plenty in the 75-125 grouping that are pretty close in ability....when I've seen some of the higher ranked ones play I'd say they were each 4-6 inches taller than my son (some surprisingly big kids - a few even make my son look 2+/-yrs younger based on relative physical development) and so a decent bit of the difference I've seen relative to my son comes from their ability to hit the ball further and have shorter irons for their approach shots when playing from 6600-6900 yards - for instance my son's best friend is 7 months older and 4-5 inches taller but is a 2023 and got into the top 25 for part of the summer but head to head on any given day isn't really a better golfer than my son but he is at least 1 and perhaps 2 clubs longer than my son from the fairway and so has an easier time playing from full distances. For instance, his friend has a JGS differential of over 1 better than my son but my son's USGA index (only from tournament rounds) is .4 better than his friend's.



    I've also heard that college coaches start to pay attention at this age but probably only to kids in the top 10-15 (for their class), if that, at this point. I suspect that things will get shuffled around quite a bit particularly in the 20-100 next summer once kids are paying more attention generally at this age to what helps for JGS and many have gotten bigger and will be playing more of the longer tournaments with the older kids where they can more easily bring down their scoring differentials and improve their strength of field. By age 15-16 I think far less of playing differences among kids will be attributable to size and far more to quality of play.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • DGord10DGord10 ClubWRX Posts: 38 ClubWRX
    edited Dec 10, 2018 #9
    LOL - purely for 2023 - I suspect my son is 3000+ overall. I'm not sure I recall exactly but I don't think anyone in 2023 has cracked the top 300 or maybe 400 last time I looked. One of my son's friends who is 2021 and an amazing player I think cracked the top 600 overall so I can only imagine how crazy good any kid needs to be to crack the top 500 let alone the top 100 - just shows how fiercely competitive it is. As I recall, it was really the class of 2021 (sophomore year) where there started to be decent representation in the top 100.
  • DGord10DGord10 ClubWRX Posts: 38 ClubWRX
    leezer99 wrote:

    DGord10 wrote:


    LOL - purely for 2023 - I suspect my son is 3000+ overall. I'm not sure I recall exactly but I don't think anyone in 2023 has cracked the top 300 or maybe 400 last time I looked. One of my son's friends who is 2021 and an amazing player I think cracked the top 600 overall so I can only imagine how crazy good any kid needs to be to crack the top 500 let alone the top 100 - just shows how fiercely competitive it is. As I recall, it was really the class of 2021 (sophomore year) where there started to be decent representation in the top 100.




    Top 2023 I could find was Gaven Lane at 328. Already committed to OSU.




    Wow - pretty remarkable to say the least on both counts!!
  • NolesNoles Members Posts: 1,434 ✭✭
    iteachgolf wrote:

    tiger1873 wrote:


    I agree with Heavy on this one there is no way they know who the best recruits are going to be in 2023 . Kids grow at different rates and this causes problem for sure. They are well aware as most people probably are that the top ranked kids in 2023 class today will most likely not be the top ranked kid in 4- 5 years.



    A lot people have told me rankings do not matter. We all know they do if we like or not and the way they rank is not always fair. I had a neighbor of a high ranked boy who went on to play D1. Great kid but the dad told me that what ever you do don't push for a high ranking early. The reason is there is a lot pressure to stay at the top and it is not easy to do. He had the unfortunate of being a top ranked kid (top 100 JGS) that slipped later on and it made harder to get recruited. Still got recruited and is playing on a D1 team.




    The top schools are almost done recruiting 2021 and absolutely are recruiting 2022 and 2023. The top kids in 2023 are already shooting under par from 6500+ yards. Pretty easy to tell that they will be good.
    Can you define "top schools" and how many are you talking about. Thanks.
  • Pinewood GolferPinewood Golfer Members Posts: 134 ✭✭
    edited Dec 10, 2018 #12
    JDee1935 wrote:

    CTgolf wrote:


    Was chatting with a parent of a well-ranked (top 100 JGS) boy in class of 2023. He thinks the rankings aren't really reflective of the talent out there for another 2 years, when he would be a sophomore in high school.



    Does this make sense? I would have thought college coaches would be eyeing the rankings of 8th graders and freshmen already to track progress over time?




    JGS is not really accurate, nor looked @ by colleges. WAGR, Golfweek, AJGA, are the top ranking systems.




    This is a foolish comment. The MOST inaccurate ranking system is AJGA. WAGR is also the worst amateur ranking system—SPWAR is FAR better. JGS’s system is absolutely looked at by coaches when determining who to “put on the radar”. Golfweek has the best system for ranking but should include more tournaments. Historically, Golfweek’s rankings are a much greater indicator for success than JGS or AJGA. AJGA’s ranking are the poorest indicator for success.
  • wlmwlm Members Posts: 95 ✭✭
    JDee1935 wrote:

    CTgolf wrote:


    Was chatting with a parent of a well-ranked (top 100 JGS) boy in class of 2023. He thinks the rankings aren't really reflective of the talent out there for another 2 years, when he would be a sophomore in high school.



    Does this make sense? I would have thought college coaches would be eyeing the rankings of 8th graders and freshmen already to track progress over time?




    JGS is not really accurate, nor looked @ by colleges. WAGR, Golfweek, AJGA, are the top ranking systems.


    I have a different view / experience. While some coaches may favor one ranking over another, JGS is definitely looked at by coaches. I think they look at JGS, Golfweek and Rolex, and to a lesser extent WAGR. So many junior golfers aren’t even ranked players on WAGR, that it is only useful for players as they get a little older and more successful. I think 21 is definitely in play and still being recruited. In fact a few 20’s have committed as recently as the last 6 months or so. Most of those guys had narrowed it down to a few schools and were weighing options though. I’m wondering how the new visit rules will impact early commitments.
  • iteachgolfiteachgolf Members Posts: 16,808 ✭✭
    Noles wrote:

    iteachgolf wrote:

    tiger1873 wrote:


    I agree with Heavy on this one there is no way they know who the best recruits are going to be in 2023 . Kids grow at different rates and this causes problem for sure. They are well aware as most people probably are that the top ranked kids in 2023 class today will most likely not be the top ranked kid in 4- 5 years.



    A lot people have told me rankings do not matter. We all know they do if we like or not and the way they rank is not always fair. I had a neighbor of a high ranked boy who went on to play D1. Great kid but the dad told me that what ever you do don't push for a high ranking early. The reason is there is a lot pressure to stay at the top and it is not easy to do. He had the unfortunate of being a top ranked kid (top 100 JGS) that slipped later on and it made harder to get recruited. Still got recruited and is playing on a D1 team.




    The top schools are almost done recruiting 2021 and absolutely are recruiting 2022 and 2023. The top kids in 2023 are already shooting under par from 6500+ yards. Pretty easy to tell that they will be good.
    Can you define "top schools" and how many are you talking about. Thanks.




    I’d say top 50. And I said almost done. As in they know who they are targeting and are recruiting them. Now commitments change and nothing is official until signing day so there will be some changes.
  • iteachgolfiteachgolf Members Posts: 16,808 ✭✭
    JDee1935 wrote:

    CTgolf wrote:


    Was chatting with a parent of a well-ranked (top 100 JGS) boy in class of 2023. He thinks the rankings aren't really reflective of the talent out there for another 2 years, when he would be a sophomore in high school.



    Does this make sense? I would have thought college coaches would be eyeing the rankings of 8th graders and freshmen already to track progress over time?




    JGS is not really accurate, nor looked @ by colleges. WAGR, Golfweek, AJGA, are the top ranking systems.




    Not accurate at all. JGS is absolutely what most coaches look at and the first place they look.
  • NolesNoles Members Posts: 1,434 ✭✭
    iteachgolf wrote:

    Noles wrote:

    iteachgolf wrote:

    tiger1873 wrote:


    I agree with Heavy on this one there is no way they know who the best recruits are going to be in 2023 . Kids grow at different rates and this causes problem for sure. They are well aware as most people probably are that the top ranked kids in 2023 class today will most likely not be the top ranked kid in 4- 5 years.



    A lot people have told me rankings do not matter. We all know they do if we like or not and the way they rank is not always fair. I had a neighbor of a high ranked boy who went on to play D1. Great kid but the dad told me that what ever you do don't push for a high ranking early. The reason is there is a lot pressure to stay at the top and it is not easy to do. He had the unfortunate of being a top ranked kid (top 100 JGS) that slipped later on and it made harder to get recruited. Still got recruited and is playing on a D1 team.




    The top schools are almost done recruiting 2021 and absolutely are recruiting 2022 and 2023. The top kids in 2023 are already shooting under par from 6500+ yards. Pretty easy to tell that they will be good.
    Can you define "top schools" and how many are you talking about. Thanks.




    I'd say top 50. And I said almost done. As in they know who they are targeting and are recruiting them. Now commitments change and nothing is official until signing day so there will be some changes.
    Thanks
  • Pinewood GolferPinewood Golfer Members Posts: 134 ✭✭
    edited Dec 10, 2018 #17
    leezer99 wrote:

    JDee1935 wrote:

    CTgolf wrote:


    Was chatting with a parent of a well-ranked (top 100 JGS) boy in class of 2023. He thinks the rankings aren't really reflective of the talent out there for another 2 years, when he would be a sophomore in high school.



    Does this make sense? I would have thought college coaches would be eyeing the rankings of 8th graders and freshmen already to track progress over time?




    JGS is not really accurate, nor looked @ by colleges. WAGR, Golfweek, AJGA, are the top ranking systems.




    This is a foolish comment. The MOST inaccurate ranking system is AJGA. WAGR is also the worst amateur ranking system—SEPAR is FAR better. JGS’s system is absolutely looked at by coaches when determining who to “put on the radar”. Golfweek has the best system for ranking but should include more tournaments. Historically, Golfweek’s rankings are a much greater indicator for success than JGS or AJGA.


    Let's not start a fight and get this thread locked as well people.



    Pinewood, I'd like to hear more about why this is the case.




    AJGA uses only finishing position and somewhat arbitrarily assigns points levels to The counted event. Not to mention there are only 10ish non-AJGA events counted in their ranking.



    I’ll give you an example of the stupidity of the way they rank. Buddy of mine’s son is ranked 79 AJGA, gets an invite a few weeks ago to the Rolex Tournament of Champions—an invitational that takes only the top 72 players (and move down lost when people say no).



    If he had played in the event, against virtually an entire field of players ranked higher than him, he could have finished 25th in the event and moved DOWN in the rankings. He could have played the 70 best players in the world—according to AJGA—and gone 45-24 against them and moved DOWN. It’s laughable.



    Those examples repeat themselves throughout the spectrum of their events and rankings.



    Golfweek looks exclusively at “who you beat” and use the average scoring in an event to create a basis on which to judge an individual’s score. So, they create a “record” for each player and then they judge their score in an event versus the other scores, adjust for strength of field and produce rankings. Problem is they only have 250 events in their system. Not near enough.



    JGS compiles the largest database of tournament result of any junior system. They rely largely on scoring relative to course rating—which is flawed in and of itself. For example, courses can play much harder/easier depending upon conditions and this is not accounted for. However, the volume of events reported helps wash that out over time. JGS’s methodology isn’t perfect but their rankings are a very good universal look at the junior landscape.



    If you could combine Golfweek’s methodology with JGS’s database then you’d have something.



    On the amateur rankings, WAGR has several problems. First, you have to “qualify” for a ranking by finishing at an arbitrarily determined position in an arbitrarily determined strength of event. So, you could finish 2nd in 6 consecutive AJGA Open events and not qualify for a ranking while a player that wins once and has 5 middle of the pack finishes is rated.



    Second, WAGR’s strength of event is a joke. AJGA invitationals are B rated events-equal to the majority of major college college golf events. If you think the top 75 juniors can step on the course today with a field consisting of 50 of the top 500 college players and hold their own then your crazy. Those college players were ranked as high or higher 1-4 years prior and have been being paid (tuition+) to play golf ever since.



    SPWAR uses FAR FAR more events-5,000+ world wide, doesn’t arbitrarily assign strength ratings and determines rankings, much like Golfweek junior, based purely upon who you play against and who you beat. SPWAR has over 12,000 ranked players derived from more than 5,000 events including more junior players and junior events than any other ranking system.
  • wlmwlm Members Posts: 95 ✭✭
    Interestingly, while the methodology is different among the 3 main junior rankings, there does seem to be some consistency among them. Just a quick look at the top 10, 7 players are top 10 in all 3.
  • Pinewood GolferPinewood Golfer Members Posts: 134 ✭✭
    wlm wrote:


    Interestingly, while the methodology is different among the 3 main junior rankings, there does seem to be some consistency among them. Just a quick look at the top 10, 7 players are top 10 in all 3.




    Pretty much anyone could create a ranking system to identify the BEST players. Good methodology will generate good results throughout the ranking system. That’s where AJGA fails miserably
  • wlmwlm Members Posts: 95 ✭✭

    wlm wrote:


    Interestingly, while the methodology is different among the 3 main junior rankings, there does seem to be some consistency among them. Just a quick look at the top 10, 7 players are top 10 in all 3.




    Pretty much anyone could create a ranking system to identify the BEST players. Good methodology will generate good results throughout the ranking system. That’s where AJGA fails miserably


    That is a good point. I think the AJGA states that their ranking system is for the purpose of identifying Jr All-Americans and Invitational fields. It does a pretty good job of doing that, but not as good the further down it goes.
  • DGord10DGord10 ClubWRX Posts: 38 ClubWRX
    edited Dec 10, 2018 #21


    They rely largely on scoring relative to course rating—which is flawed in and of itself. For example, courses can play much harder/easier depending upon conditions and this is not accounted for. However, the volume of events reported helps wash that out over time. JGS's methodology isn't perfect but their rankings are a very good universal look at the junior landscape.






    Very good point about conditions - particularly an issue with tournaments in April/May around here in Chicago! Not sure anyone is doing much scoring when its 50 degrees, wet and windy like so much of last spring.... talked to a number of parents of high school kids trying to figure out what to do in the spring - just avoid 2-day tournaments altogether or potentially risk some bad rounds and aberrational scores caused by awful weather which could jeopardize rankings. I guess I'm going to have to figure that out for next spring.
  • Pinewood GolferPinewood Golfer Members Posts: 134 ✭✭
    wlm wrote:


    wlm wrote:


    Interestingly, while the methodology is different among the 3 main junior rankings, there does seem to be some consistency among them. Just a quick look at the top 10, 7 players are top 10 in all 3.




    Pretty much anyone could create a ranking system to identify the BEST players. Good methodology will generate good results throughout the ranking system. That’s where AJGA fails miserably


    That is a good point. I think the AJGA states that their ranking system is for the purpose of identifying Jr All-Americans and Invitational fields. It does a pretty good job of doing that, but not as good the further down it goes.




    You know, I’ve never noticed that they actually do state that to be their purpose. Interesting. They freely admit they aren’t trying to generate a ranking system that is accurate beyond the best of the best. With that being the case, it should be (a) better communicated and (b) presented as a type of “points race” as opposed to ranking system.



    They also state The Rolex AJGA Rankings is the proprietary system created by the AJGA to identify and rank the top junior players who have competed in the premier junior golf tournaments in the U.S.



    That is wholly inaccurate and disingenuous. There are dozens of events stronger than dozens of the AJGA events used in the rankings. Many TJGT, California junior tours, FJT, etc.
  • wlmwlm Members Posts: 95 ✭✭
    I agree the regular Open AJGA tournaments have become more diluted over the last few years. The Invitationals, however, are consistently the strongest fields behind Sage.
  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,069 ✭✭
    edited Dec 11, 2018 #24
    All ranking's have flaws in them and I think people worry too much about them in general especially under 13. I think like everyone I care about rankings too much at least I have come to this conclusion lately. My conclusions are based on girls because that what I care about as I only have girls and it may be different for boys.



    Kids under 13 are buying themselves rankings by playing lots and lots of tournaments. I see some kids play 20 plus tournaments and the ones that cost money seem to help rank better. Yes you have to perform but at the same time kids playing less tournaments are losing out on rank. This is what I believe causes the most problems people have with rankings.



    If you play tournaments against kids that are 18 years old which also has the longest yardage your ranking be higher if you can actually compete with the older kids. It will always be lower if you play and win a tournament with kids 13 and under.



    I have come to the conclusion that under 13 your better off focusing on development of their game then tournaments.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,115 ✭✭
    JDee1935 wrote:

    CTgolf wrote:


    Was chatting with a parent of a well-ranked (top 100 JGS) boy in class of 2023. He thinks the rankings aren't really reflective of the talent out there for another 2 years, when he would be a sophomore in high school.



    Does this make sense? I would have thought college coaches would be eyeing the rankings of 8th graders and freshmen already to track progress over time?




    JGS is not really accurate, nor looked @ by colleges. WAGR, Golfweek, AJGA, are the top ranking systems.




    Couldn't be further from the truth.
  • NevergolfparNevergolfpar Members Posts: 56
    DGord10 wrote:



    They rely largely on scoring relative to course rating—which is flawed in and of itself. For example, courses can play much harder/easier depending upon conditions and this is not accounted for. However, the volume of events reported helps wash that out over time. JGS's methodology isn't perfect but their rankings are a very good universal look at the junior landscape.






    Very good point about conditions - particularly an issue with tournaments in April/May around here in Chicago! Not sure anyone is doing much scoring when its 50 degrees, wet and windy like so much of last spring.... talked to a number of parents of high school kids trying to figure out what to do in the spring - just avoid 2-day tournaments altogether or potentially risk some bad rounds and aberrational scores caused by awful weather which could jeopardize rankings. I guess I'm going to have to figure that out for next spring.




    Don't worry about conditions nor 'rankings' when it comes to putting together your child's schedule this spring. My son (if you follow amateur golf in Illinois, you know of my son), a product of Chicagoland golf will finish his D1 eligibility this spring. When it is all said and done, he will have had 80% of his college paid for, through an athletic golf scholarship. He was given this opportunity by learning how to compete in the April/May MAGJT (play the IJGA event at Medinah as well) events you are considering bypassing. Don't do it, play those events!



    While it is correct that your child's scoring differential will be hindered by these events (thus your bogus ranking), you are being short-sighted. Consider the invaluable lessons your child will learn as they struggle to win in the wind, rain and colder conditions you will likely face. This adversity will build strength in the long run.



    My advice is, unless your son/daughter is a top 10 player for his class, there is no reason at all to chase a 'ranking'. The only event my son has struggled to get into (when he should have been accepted) is the Western Amateur, which does indeed reward those chasing/buying a ranking or of a certain financial 'pedigree'.



    I would also recommend you read a previous thread by me, concerning my son's journey through college golf. It could help you and your child as you continue through your journey in competitive golf and future collegiate success.
  • DGord10DGord10 ClubWRX Posts: 38 ClubWRX
    edited Dec 13, 2018 #27

    DGord10 wrote:


    Very good point about conditions - particularly an issue with tournaments in April/May around here in Chicago! Not sure anyone is doing much scoring when its 50 degrees, wet and windy like so much of last spring.... talked to a number of parents of high school kids trying to figure out what to do in the spring - just avoid 2-day tournaments altogether or potentially risk some bad rounds and aberrational scores caused by awful weather which could jeopardize rankings. I guess I'm going to have to figure that out for next spring.




    Don't worry about conditions nor 'rankings' when it comes to putting together your child's schedule this spring. My son (if you follow amateur golf in Illinois, you know of my son), a product of Chicagoland golf will finish his D1 eligibility this spring. When it is all said and done, he will have had 80% of his college paid for, through an athletic golf scholarship. He was given this opportunity by learning how to compete in the April/May MAGJT (play the IJGA event at Medinah as well) events you are considering bypassing. Don't do it, play those events!



    While it is correct that your child's scoring differential will be hindered by these events (thus your bogus ranking), you are being short-sighted. Consider the invaluable lessons your child will learn as they struggle to win in the wind, rain and colder conditions you will likely face. This adversity will build strength in the long run.



    My advice is, unless your son/daughter is a top 10 player for his class, there is no reason at all to chase a 'ranking'. The only event my son has struggled to get into (when he should have been accepted) is the Western Amateur, which does indeed reward those chasing/buying a ranking or of a certain financial 'pedigree'.



    I would also recommend you read a previous thread by me, concerning my son's journey through college golf. It could help you and your child as you continue through your journey in competitive golf and future collegiate success.




    Good thoughts - thanks for posting. I will definitely go back to find your previous thread - thanks for mentioning it as it sounds like it will be very helpful.



    To be clear, I wasn't suggesting that my son not play in any tournaments during April/May but was trying to think through whether to be more select about it and, though I suspect he won't play in any 1-day tournaments other than qualifiers next summer otherwise, consider whether some early spring tournaments should be 1-day tournaments that will not count in the ratings but still serve to help him start getting into tournament shape as well as continue to learn how to play in the elements.



    Part of the issue is also that if a kid plays in a few early tournaments where the weather is bad and scoring is much higher, even if he perseveres and even if he wins the tournament by struggling better than everyone else, those 4 or 6 higher scores early in the season might make it very, very hard for him to have a chance to get into the top 50 or 25 or 10 in their age group during the course of the summer. It seems like even 6 or 8 or 12 strokes averaged across many rounds can mean the difference of 20-30 spots or more - very uphill battle to come back from scores in the high 70s (or worse) when you are trying to get your differential down to around 0-2 (even with 25% of the scores culled from the calculation). Not sure feeling like he is starting the season in a "hole" that he has to dig out of is good for learning, etc. either....



    The other part of the issue is that it is very hard to know when the conditions are a helpful learning experience and when they are just plain stupid - fine line I think. A couple years ago my son was signed up for a tournament at the end of April - it was windy, raining and mid 40s - we pulled our son (I actually think they called the tournament after about 2-3 hours because it got worse). Should we have let him go out there? Seemed very wrong at the time. He's played many tournaments in the rain and wind - even "cooler" but just not sure brutal conditions are worth being out there.



    At any rate, I really don't know yet how important ratings ultimate become - and it could be different for different kids at different ages and different ability levels - do you forego a couple of speculative "harsh condition" learning experiences in early spring potentially for an extra 20 or 40 spots all other things equal? I don't know..... I do think that there will be certain tournaments that will be musts - such as any of the Medinah invitationals that he can play in (though as I recall it was actually cancelled this year due to bad weather).
  • DGord10DGord10 ClubWRX Posts: 38 ClubWRX


    I would also recommend you read a previous thread by me, concerning my son's journey through college golf. It could help you and your child as you continue through your journey in competitive golf and future collegiate success.




    I was just trying to find this thread but wasn't able to find it. Any chance you can link to it? Thanks!
  • TigerMomTigerMom Members Posts: 214 ✭✭

    DGord10 wrote:



    They rely largely on scoring relative to course rating—which is flawed in and of itself. For example, courses can play much harder/easier depending upon conditions and this is not accounted for. However, the volume of events reported helps wash that out over time. JGS's methodology isn't perfect but their rankings are a very good universal look at the junior landscape.






    Very good point about conditions - particularly an issue with tournaments in April/May around here in Chicago! Not sure anyone is doing much scoring when its 50 degrees, wet and windy like so much of last spring.... talked to a number of parents of high school kids trying to figure out what to do in the spring - just avoid 2-day tournaments altogether or potentially risk some bad rounds and aberrational scores caused by awful weather which could jeopardize rankings. I guess I'm going to have to figure that out for next spring.




    Don't worry about conditions nor 'rankings' when it comes to putting together your child's schedule this spring. My son (if you follow amateur golf in Illinois, you know of my son), a product of Chicagoland golf will finish his D1 eligibility this spring. When it is all said and done, he will have had 80% of his college paid for, through an athletic golf scholarship. He was given this opportunity by learning how to compete in the April/May MAGJT (play the IJGA event at Medinah as well) events you are considering bypassing. Don't do it, play those events!



    While it is correct that your child's scoring differential will be hindered by these events (thus your bogus ranking), you are being short-sighted. Consider the invaluable lessons your child will learn as they struggle to win in the wind, rain and colder conditions you will likely face. This adversity will build strength in the long run.



    My advice is, unless your son/daughter is a top 10 player for his class, there is no reason at all to chase a 'ranking'. The only event my son has struggled to get into (when he should have been accepted) is the Western Amateur, which does indeed reward those chasing/buying a ranking or of a certain financial 'pedigree'.



    I would also recommend you read a previous thread by me, concerning my son's journey through college golf. It could help you and your child as you continue through your journey in competitive golf and future collegiate success.




    this is excellent advices



    I am not an expert in junior golf, since only my youngest started playing just a couple years ago



    but I have older kids who have played tennis very competitively - one even at an elite level



    parents can get very consumed with rankings and sometimes lose sight of what is ultimately important



    this is normal and even understandable since in order to qualify for certain tournaments it is based on ranking



    also ranking becomes important once the age window for recruiting opens



    college coaches are busy and have so much information to process, so they have to narrow the target group



    ranking is a very easy way to do it - otherwise determined by 'luck' of coming across someone you didn't notice or relying on personal recommendations and network



    but unless they have a chance to become a professional athlete the ranking is not that important for kids I think
  • JDee1935JDee1935 Members Posts: 16 ✭✭
    leezer99 wrote:

    JDee1935 wrote:

    CTgolf wrote:


    Was chatting with a parent of a well-ranked (top 100 JGS) boy in class of 2023. He thinks the rankings aren't really reflective of the talent out there for another 2 years, when he would be a sophomore in high school.



    Does this make sense? I would have thought college coaches would be eyeing the rankings of 8th graders and freshmen already to track progress over time?




    JGS is not really accurate, nor looked @ by colleges. WAGR, Golfweek, AJGA, are the top ranking systems.




    I've seen you mention this a few times. What makes JGS less accurate than the others?
    In JGS, there is very little emphasis put on strength of field, course difficulty etc. They tend to lump tournaments by yardages more than anything. AND they do not report anything USGA, nor anything combining women or men/college players/juniors
  • iteachgolfiteachgolf Members Posts: 16,808 ✭✭
    JDee1935 wrote:

    leezer99 wrote:

    JDee1935 wrote:

    CTgolf wrote:


    Was chatting with a parent of a well-ranked (top 100 JGS) boy in class of 2023. He thinks the rankings aren't really reflective of the talent out there for another 2 years, when he would be a sophomore in high school.



    Does this make sense? I would have thought college coaches would be eyeing the rankings of 8th graders and freshmen already to track progress over time?




    JGS is not really accurate, nor looked @ by colleges. WAGR, Golfweek, AJGA, are the top ranking systems.




    I've seen you mention this a few times. What makes JGS less accurate than the others?
    In JGS, there is very little emphasis put on strength of field, course difficulty etc. They tend to lump tournaments by yardages more than anything. AND they do not report anything USGA, nor anything combining women or men/college players/juniors




    Strength of field is 25% of the ranking and the course rating is factoring in course difficulty. WAGR is a WAY worse system.
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