Hogan´s Bowed Wrist

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  • hanonhanon Members  54WRX Points: 0Posts: 54
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    Here is a video with Johnny Miller talking clearly about Hogan´s supination move (see from 1:25):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPoVTn7lrS0



    And a Hogan´s interview where he talks about pronation and supination: http://www.golf.com/golf/advertisers/dow/h...les/b_hogan.htm
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  • JD3JD3 Members  5055WRX Points: 401Posts: 5,055 Titanium Tees
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    At the 4:45 mark a TGM instructor discusses this move:

    http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/index.php/Vie...f-Barclays.html
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  • hanonhanon Members  54WRX Points: 0Posts: 54
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    jduncanm3 wrote on Jun 10 2009, 08:02 AM:
    At the 4:45 mark a TGM instructor discusses this move:

    http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/index.php/Vie...f-Barclays.html




    This is not exactly bowing the left wrist. He is talking about rolling the wrists which is also quite important in a crossover release if you are a swinger (TGM terminology). For rolling the wrists these are quite good videos:



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVx6DPCIhd8

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqNlEy0pNBc



    Althought I am not a complete expert rolling the wrists is not the exactly same as Hogan´s type of release by bowing the wrists. If you get a bowed wrist you don´t need to rotate as much the wrist prior to impact.



    Another video about this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODCzUcP6GLk
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  • drumondrumon Members  88WRX Points: 0Posts: 88
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    hanon wrote on 25 May 2009 - 07:43 PM:

    hanon wrote on Apr 20 2009, 01:48 PM:
    It (the Secret?) had to do with the face of the club. ... I rolled the face of the club open away from the ball. That cupped my left wrist. Coming down, the face was moving so fast I couldn't turn it over and hook. I was rotating the club like a baseball bat, and the faster I could rotate it, the more distance I got. Training myself, I would roll the face open as fast and as far as I could. With this technique, I could hit the ball straight and farther."




    Look to this sevam1´s video about the rotation of the shaft: [url="



    Could it be the missing piece?








    I find the above quoted video quite revealing/helpful.



    I am relatively new to golf, haven't played much in the past, and haven't played for several years now and only just started taking lessons so that as I start to play regularly I actually learn properly.



    Bought Hogan's 5 Lessons as it echoed what my teacher is telling me.. I like the principles, maybe I like that kind of method as I am a musician and study technique of movement as a matter of course to make the correct sound on my instrument..... Anyway......



    This video seems to sum up for me (so far) the left wrist thing of supinating at impact after having a really wide open clubface at the top of swing, (cupped wrist), but only by keeping weight on the right leg and not sliding it all to the left by impact time.



    I really didnt understand the supinating wrist, but this video helps by explaining some of the movement of the grip leading to the impact, along with the weight on right leg.



    Cant explain much more than that, as I'm not an expert, and may contradict myself simply by not fully understanding my swing movements, BUT as I have no preconceptions about the golf swing I do think this video says a lot, the right way, about the supinating wrist.
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  • golfbulldoggolfbulldog Members  163WRX Points: 0Posts: 163
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    hanon wrote on 25 May 2009 - 07:43 PM:

    hanon wrote on Apr 20 2009, 01:48 PM:
    It (the Secret?) had to do with the face of the club. ... I rolled the face of the club open away from the ball. That cupped my left wrist. Coming down, the face was moving so fast I couldn't turn it over and hook. I was rotating the club like a baseball bat, and the faster I could rotate it, the more distance I got. Training myself, I would roll the face open as fast and as far as I could. With this technique, I could hit the ball straight and farther."




    Look to this sevam1´s video about the rotation of the shaft: [url="



    Could it be the missing piece?



    <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/o8xO2nN0LT0"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/o8xO2nN0LT0&quot; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>


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  • Dariusz J.Dariusz J. BiokineticGolf Banned  3044WRX Points: 0Posts: 3,044
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    Great vid, GB. It surely was one of Hogan's secrets. Moreover, if this is a subconscious move - the man was even a bigger genius than we all think.



    Cheers
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  • AltusBelieverAltusBeliever Members  542WRX Points: 0Posts: 542
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    If you keep your left wrist bowed-thereby maintaining your lag- the ball won't hook. You might yank it but it won't snap. Been working on this for a couple of years with varying levels of success. Subconsciously you think it will go left hard but it won't. Hard to trust it that is for sure.

    Video my instructor shows me indicates that Hogan went from cupped at top to bowed almost immediately as his downswing started. Might be the result of the rapid change in direction he had, I don't know but makes some sense to me.
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  • Dariusz J.Dariusz J. BiokineticGolf Banned  3044WRX Points: 0Posts: 3,044
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    AltusBeliever wrote on 30 January 2010 - 03:41 PM:


    If you keep your left wrist bowed-thereby maintaining your lag- the ball won't hook. You might yank it but it won't snap. Been working on this for a couple of years with varying levels of success. Subconsciously you think it will go left hard but it won't. Hard to trust it that is for sure.

    Video my instructor shows me indicates that Hogan went from cupped at top to bowed almost immediately as his downswing started. Might be the result of the rapid change in direction he had, I don't know but makes some sense to me.




    Unfortunately for your instuctor he's plain wrong. The last thing Hogan's supposed to do is to release the LH cup too early.



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  • AltusBelieverAltusBeliever Members  542WRX Points: 0Posts: 542
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    I was speaking of the cupped left wrist going to bowed-not the right. In my looking at it the left bows and the right cups and stays that way thru impact, thereby maintaining the lag.

    In the video I have looked at you can see the face angle change from toe down (open/cupped) to square and the left wrist bowed, or at least it looks that way. I agree that the photo you post shows what appears to be a cupped left wrist well into the downswing which would mean he bows it (turns to knuckles under I guess) very quickly and in a short period of time. I would like to see the clubface and that would answer any debate.
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  • AltusBelieverAltusBeliever Members  542WRX Points: 0Posts: 542
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    Just saw a pic of Jaime Sadlowski the LD king and he has pretty much the same position as in the Hogan picture. I suspect with Jaime it is because of his strong grip but merely a supposition. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
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  • Dariusz J.Dariusz J. BiokineticGolf Banned  3044WRX Points: 0Posts: 3,044
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    AltusBeliever wrote on 30 January 2010 - 07:32 PM:


    I was speaking of the cupped left wrist going to bowed-not the right. In my looking at it the left bows and the right cups and stays that way thru impact, thereby maintaining the lag.

    In the video I have looked at you can see the face angle change from toe down (open/cupped) to square and the left wrist bowed, or at least it looks that way. I agree that the photo you post shows what appears to be a cupped left wrist well into the downswing which would mean he bows it (turns to knuckles under I guess) very quickly and in a short period of time. I would like to see the clubface and that would answer any debate.




    I apologize for my mistake - of course, I meant LH cup (already ammended my post). Talking about losing the cup of the RH would be somehow silly - at least, until impact.

    What is interesting - with post-secret Hogan's grip one can maintan cups in both hands...as you excellently noticed.



    Cheers
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  • martinezmartinez Members  1975WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,975
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    golfbulldog wrote on 30 January 2010 - 10:34 PM:




    [url=&quot;


    Nice video....surely the real secret is how to get to a point in the swing whereby that is the only way to strike the Golf ball.


    Dariusz J. wrote on 30 January 2010 - 11:14 PM:


    Great vid, GB. It surely was one of Hogan's secrets. Moreover, if this is a subconscious move - the man was even a bigger genius than we all think.



    Cheers


    I believe it's a subconscious one, absolutely. The result however of some serious intent to get into a position where that move is subconscious and automatic.
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  • Siteseer2Siteseer2 ClubWRX  1155WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,155
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    Here's the Sequence:



    Posted:
  • martinezmartinez Members  1975WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,975
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    Siteseer2 wrote on 31 January 2010 - 08:01 AM:


    One video frame difference (about 4 millisec frames)...







    So..........what? You saying that he bowed his wrist at the top of the swing? What's the point SS2?

    I would argue that it happens as a 'result of' the change in direction of the 'club'....in spite of what 'he' is doing, not as a 'result of'.
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  • golfbulldoggolfbulldog Members  163WRX Points: 0Posts: 163
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    Dariusz J. wrote on 30 January 2010 - 08:46 PM:

    AltusBeliever wrote on 30 January 2010 - 07:32 PM:


    I was speaking of the cupped left wrist going to bowed-not the right. In my looking at it the left bows and the right cups and stays that way thru impact, thereby maintaining the lag.

    In the video I have looked at you can see the face angle change from toe down (open/cupped) to square and the left wrist bowed, or at least it looks that way. I agree that the photo you post shows what appears to be a cupped left wrist well into the downswing which would mean he bows it (turns to knuckles under I guess) very quickly and in a short period of time. I would like to see the clubface and that would answer any debate.




    I apologize for my mistake - of course, I meant LH cup (already ammended my post). Talking about losing the cup of the RH would be somehow silly - at least, until impact.

    What is interesting - with post-secret Hogan's grip one can maintan cups in both hands...as you excellently noticed.



    Cheers





    Siteseer2 wrote on 30 January 2010 - 10:01 PM:


    One video frame difference (about 4 millisec frames)...









    In this video he lays the club off at the top of the backswing which in itself appears to change the clubface angle as siteseers images show...but you can do this by altering the plane of the left arm rather than going from cupped to bowed in transition.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/golfbulldog#p/u/31/dy4axvi_ZE4



    In my video clip the cup goes to bowed at the level of the hands approaching hip height. In 5 lessons (pg 93 my edition) Hogan says "what do the hands do? The answer is they only do nothing active until after the arms have moved on the downswing to a position just above the level of the hips...blah blah blah...free ride...etc"



    This level of hands just above hips is a key position/alignment for Hogan - look at 5 lessons - it is the second image in the series of downswing(second part of the swing) drawings.



    http://www.youtube.com/user/golfbulldog#p/u/3/ep-qidwgCII



    Look at Sadlowski in the close up slo mo...really cupped / strong grip...
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  • martinezmartinez Members  1975WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,975
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    In 5 Lessons he doesn't advocate doing anything from hip height to change the direction that got you to hip height.....one continuous thrust. You must be in a position from where you can do this and have the things happen, that happen from hip height, be a result of that thrust.
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  • Siteseer2Siteseer2 ClubWRX  1155WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,155
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    That clubface clearly goes from toe down to closed--in a milli--second...and, if you use the bleachers and person in the background as a point of reference, there is no change in left arm or plane angle...



    Hogan was a shotmaker... WHEN he took that cup out; when he PUT it in; when he released it; and HOW he released it; were all part of his shotmaking...that's the way I'm seeing it... and unless you knew his intention on THAT shot--too hard to extrapolate as to his action from any given photo or video...
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  • martinezmartinez Members  1975WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,975
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    I absolutely agree with your thoughts there, that's why I consider it pointless to pour over stills and focus on positions......I would add that there are other factors involved in shot-making other than the conscious manipulation of the hands that have a direct bearing on how cupped your wrist can be and how long that cup can be maintained/released....whether consciously or not.
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  • Siteseer2Siteseer2 ClubWRX  1155WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,155
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    martinez wrote on 30 January 2010 - 08:19 PM:


    I absolutely agree with your thoughts there, that's why I consider it pointless to pour over stills and focus on positions......I would add that there are other factors involved in shot-making other than the conscious manipulation of the hands that have a direct bearing on how cupped your wrist can be and how long that cup can be maintained/released....whether consciously or not.


    You know, M...that's the enigma...that darn cup of the left wrist...HE thought it was important to his shotmaking ability...which would infer that there was conscious manipulation going on at some level, and in some quantum...
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  • martinezmartinez Members  1975WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,975
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    I understand, I don't see it as an enigma anymore, I see it as he consciously cupped the crap out of it every time, then depending on what else was going on......whatever shot he was consciously intending to hit, how he used his body, it did what it did from transition onwards.
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  • Siteseer2Siteseer2 ClubWRX  1155WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,155
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    martinez wrote on 30 January 2010 - 09:15 PM:


    I understand, I don't see it as an enigma anymore, I see it as [size="2"]he consciously cupped the crap out of it every time[/size], then depending on what else was going on......whatever shot he was consciously intending to hit, how he used his body, it did what it did from transition onwards.


    Not what he said...in '55 Life Article, and others, he said he ONLY used it on certain shots...he estimated 80% of the time
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  • martinezmartinez Members  1975WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,975
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    Siteseer2 wrote on 31 January 2010 - 12:19 PM:

    martinez wrote on 30 January 2010 - 09:15 PM:


    I understand, I don't see it as an enigma anymore, I see it as [size="2"]he consciously cupped the crap out of it every time[/size], then depending on what else was going on......whatever shot he was consciously intending to hit, how he used his body, it did what it did from transition onwards.


    Not what he said...in '55 Life Article, and others, he said he ONLY used it on certain shots...he estimated 80% of the time


    Ok then. image/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
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  • Siteseer2Siteseer2 ClubWRX  1155WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,155
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    martinez wrote on 30 January 2010 - 11:03 PM:

    Siteseer2 wrote on 31 January 2010 - 12:19 PM:

    martinez wrote on 30 January 2010 - 09:15 PM:


    I understand, I don't see it as an enigma anymore, I see it as [size="2"]he consciously cupped the crap out of it every time[/size], then depending on what else was going on......whatever shot he was consciously intending to hit, how he used his body, it did what it did from transition onwards.


    Not what he said...in '55 Life Article, and others, he said he ONLY used it on certain shots...he estimated 80% of the time


    Ok then. image/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />


    LOL...see, the way I'm putting this together is that the guys back then THOUGHT the ball started on the path, and curved to the face...so there WAS emphasis on shaping shots with the hands....now, I never talked to Hogan...but I did talk to Snead, face-to-face on this very point...he believed you could control the ball with the face... true, he felt big muscles made it more consistent, but there DEFINITELY was hand action as part of the equation in shaping shots, even using the big muscles... In TGM parlance, the differences in face caused by angled hinging and horizontal hinging...

    So, with Hogan, I sort this out by believing the cup---when he put it in, and how he took it out played a significant role in his shotmaking. HOW, he made it work so seamlessly...well, I write that off to extreme talent and relentless practice...
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  • eightironeightiron Banned  3136WRX Points: 0Posts: 3,136
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    Dariusz J. wrote on 30 January 2010 - 03:46 PM:

    AltusBeliever wrote on 30 January 2010 - 07:32 PM:


    I was speaking of the cupped left wrist going to bowed-not the right. In my looking at it the left bows and the right cups and stays that way thru impact, thereby maintaining the lag.

    In the video I have looked at you can see the face angle change from toe down (open/cupped) to square and the left wrist bowed, or at least it looks that way. I agree that the photo you post shows what appears to be a cupped left wrist well into the downswing which would mean he bows it (turns to knuckles under I guess) very quickly and in a short period of time. I would like to see the clubface and that would answer any debate.




    I apologize for my mistake - of course, I meant LH cup (already ammended my post). Talking about losing the cup of the RH would be somehow silly - at least, until impact.

    What is interesting - with post-secret Hogan's grip one can maintan cups in both hands...as you excellently noticed.



    Cheers




    Dariusz I cant agree with this ...Hogans grip is not your biok grip nor does he have left wrist bent or cupped with the right wrist bent at the same time....how is it possible to have a bent left wrist ( cupped) halfway down and have the right wrist bent without your hands spreading off the grip like a butterfly...hang on thats the biok grip....joking...dont forget Hogan was pitch elbow.....pitch...get the pitchure

    Check out that 5 lessons pic on the other page...halfway down
    Posted:
  • dlygrissedlygrisse KansasMembers  13869WRX Points: 1,437Handicap: 8-ishPosts: 13,869 Titanium Tees
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    Correct me if I am wrong here, but to clarify a few points.....

    1. Hogan never talked about cuping the wirst in 5 lessons, although the drawings of him showed a cupped wrist at the top of the swing.

    2. Hogan only talked about the cup in the LIfe Mag article when discussing the secret

    3. He said in the Life article the secret would probably wreck the swing of a novice player, it was an anti hook move

    4. He stated in 5 Lessons that the hands do nothing but hold on, and that hand action is valuable only to accomplished players.





    So if you cup the wrist to effectivly open the face, you hold your angle coming down(or dont release it) till hip high you will probably hit the ball dead right. However if you hold your lag with a cupped wirst and then release your hands from hip high as hard as you can you will get the controlled anti hook shot Hogan was seeking with plenty of extra power. 3 right hands! Couple that with keeping the upper arms connected to the chest as he describes and rotate through....... everything else is just over analyzing.



    So the question is did Hogan consciencly fire his hands at the bottom?, or was it automated? My guess is that he consciencly cupped the wrist going back to hit the fade, and then either consciencly fired his hands at the bottom, or they were so educated through hours of practice he just did it with the knowledge of knowing that he would not snap hook it because of the cup.



    Cup =fade

    no cup, less of a cup =draw



    JMO.
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  • Dariusz J.Dariusz J. BiokineticGolf Banned  3044WRX Points: 0Posts: 3,044
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    eightiron wrote on 31 January 2010 - 02:47 PM:
    Dariusz I cant agree with this ...Hogans grip is not your biok grip nor does he have left wrist bent or cupped with the right wrist bent at the same time....how is it possible to have a bent left wrist ( cupped) halfway down and have the right wrist bent without your hands spreading off the grip like a butterfly...hang on thats the biok grip....joking...dont forget Hogan was pitch elbow.....pitch...get the pitchure

    Check out that 5 lessons pic on the other page...halfway down




    Eight, look at this first, please:



    Posted:
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  • Siteseer2Siteseer2 ClubWRX  1155WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,155
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    Dariusz J. wrote on 31 January 2010 - 02:01 PM:

    eightiron wrote on 31 January 2010 - 02:47 PM:
    Dariusz I cant agree with this ...Hogans grip is not your biok grip nor does he have left wrist bent or cupped with the right wrist bent at the same time....how is it possible to have a bent left wrist ( cupped) halfway down and have the right wrist bent without your hands spreading off the grip like a butterfly...hang on thats the biok grip....joking...dont forget Hogan was pitch elbow.....pitch...get the pitchure

    Check out that 5 lessons pic on the other page...halfway down




    Eight, look at this first, please:





    Hogan was in pitch elbow...the whole way...

    Punch elbow from the way he lays the shaft down (plane angle shift) at p4 (top of backswing) would create push draws and cf path...or, OTT with the shaft tipping out or face pulls

    Look at the way he maintains external rotation of right shoulder...this is pitch elbow...

    Left wrist looks pretty flat throughout...judging from the face
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  • superchargersupercharger Members  346WRX Points: 55Posts: 346 Greens
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    I would agree with Darius on the pitch to punch. The pitch is a result of the pivot and the punch is a result of the elbow leaving the hip and the left wrist supinating. There is only one way for hogans swing to work and take advantage of the pure rotation. His downswing must work off of the proper pivot, the supination must work off of the arms coming in on more rotation than gravity. When the snow gets off and I can combine my downswing theory that works off of the pivot maybe then I can have more answers.
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  • Dariusz J.Dariusz J. BiokineticGolf Banned  3044WRX Points: 0Posts: 3,044
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    Siteseer2 wrote on 31 January 2010 - 08:05 PM:
    Hogan was in pitch elbow...the whole way...

    Punch elbow from the way he lays the shaft down (plane angle shift) at p4 (top of backswing) would create push draws and cf path...or, OTT with the shaft tipping out or face pulls

    Look at the way he maintains external rotation of right shoulder...this is pitch elbow...

    Left wrist looks pretty flat throughout...judging from the face




    MAybe he was, maybe he wasn't...IMO, the most important thing is to create mechanical possibilities to start the downswing with the pitch elbow and to locate the joint as soon as possible onto the rear hip letting the humerus be parallel and the forearm perpendicular to the spine. If the rear elbow leaves the hip to go more forward in front of the body, the perfect scenario described above ruins. The "late" punch elbow lets to approach impact without ruining it. Observe, that Hogan's rear elbow does not move forward more than necessary and stays on the hip - that's why I said "pitch-to-punch".

    Lastly, the very change in the lead wrist from cup to bow occurs when "pitch becomes punch", since this very process somehow makes the rear elbow stop moving forward.



    I will not defend this theory over dead bodies though since pitch/punch elbow concepts belong rather to microscale that is not of my primary interest when digesting the nuances of the human swing motion. image/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />





    Cheers





    P.S. Supercharger, I will await with anxiety your theories on Hogan. Seems you know your stuff well.
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  • eightironeightiron Banned  3136WRX Points: 0Posts: 3,136
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    Dariusz J. wrote on 31 January 2010 - 02:01 PM:

    eightiron wrote on 31 January 2010 - 02:47 PM:
    Dariusz I cant agree with this ...Hogans grip is not your biok grip nor does he have left wrist bent or cupped with the right wrist bent at the same time....how is it possible to have a bent left wrist ( cupped) halfway down and have the right wrist bent without your hands spreading off the grip like a butterfly...hang on thats the biok grip....joking...dont forget Hogan was pitch elbow.....pitch...get the pitchure

    Check out that 5 lessons pic on the other page...halfway down




    Eight, look at this first, please:







    Look at what ? One still pic which shows a minimal bend of left wrist and right wrist....how is it exactly the same as the 5 lessons pic which shows more left wrist bend and a flat right wrist....how is pitch vs punch elbow not important? Hogan is pitch elbow not punch , big difference , massive , this is a joke isnt it , but this all comes back to that total rotation nonsense into impact

    How is his right forearm not supinated in those pics...he just doesnt over-rotate and have his arms way behind him with elbow in punch...call pitch vs punch loading differently what you want but LOL Homer was right its chalk and cheese...take it from someone who can do both
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