Does bowing left wrist affect face angle at impact and/or swing path?

[glk]

Here is Tyler's Steeps/Shallows chart. For lead arm, UD is shallow/RD is steep For lead arm, Flexion is steep/extension is shallow. It's UD combined with flexion that matches for the lead arm.

 

[chigolfer1]

> @glk said:

> Here is Tyler's Steeps/Shallows chart. For lead arm, UD is shallow/RD is steep For lead arm, Flexion is steep/extension is shallow. It's UD combined with flexion that matches for the lead arm.

>

>

 

My gosh, are we playing golf here or trying to fly a jumbo jet? lol

 

Lead arm wrist flexion is steepening?

[glk]

Lots of combos going on at the same time to keep things in balance - here's another one - trail wrist UD steepens but trail forearm supination shallows - in good swings both forearms are supinating until just before impact when the trail forearm finally pronates, so they balance. kablooey.

[dasams]

> @barnum1 said:

> But how?

Take your address position with the club face square. Now shift into impact position with your hands forward and chest & hips open. When you move your hands forward, you'll create shaft lean. At the same time, the heel of the club stays in the same position while the toe goes backwards, ie, opens the face. Now bow your lead wrist and the face will return to square.

[chigolfer1]

I don't understand why Tyler is saying lead wrist flexion is steepening? I thought most of this thread talked about how it's a shallowing move as well as the other videos. Am I not understanding something in his diagram?

[Krt22]

That one might be a mistake, I did find a few typos in the book. Extension/Flexion appear to be flipped on that chart

[chigolfer1]

> @Krt22 said:

> That one might be a mistake, I did a few typos in the book. Extension/Flexion appear to be flipped on that chart

 

Ha, you're killing us Krt! ;-)

[glk]

That is from his website and has been up for years. I snapped it back in 2016. Just checked. Same chart.

 

From the discussion on the video where the chart is attached. Not talking flexion here but covers opposite, extension. I’ve asked Tyler on flexion.

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Robbie F 1 year, 8 months ago

Just curious, was thinking lead wrist extension would be a steepener.. Why do you classify it as a shallower? Thanks!

 

Robbie

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Tyler F 1 year, 8 months ago

+Robbie F It's a tricky one that I've discussed with a few pros.

 

From a width perspective, the lead wrist extension from flexed to neutral would make the swing wider and shallow it out. But it might change if you were going from neutral to extended.

 

From a path perspective, it does the opposite. From flexion to neutral it makes the club swing high to low (steepener), but from neutral to extended it makes the club swing more low to high (shallow). It's a debatable one, but ultimate I think for most it acts as a shallower at the bottom.

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Robbie F 1 year, 8 months ago

+Tyler F That makes total sense.. Any effect on the pitch of the shaft?

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Tyler F 1 year, 8 months ago

+Robbie F Definitely. But not as much as the other wrist movements at that time.

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[glk]

> @chigolfer1 said:

> I don't understand why Tyler is saying lead wrist flexion is steepening? I thought most of this thread talked about how it's a shallowing move as well as the other videos. Am I not understanding something in his diagram?

 

Think about it this way, in a steep swing one reaction to shallow is a scoop/flip, ie lead wrist extend,trail wrist flex. If one was overly shallow one would need to do the opposite otherwise it el hosel. Which lines up with his chart. I couldn’t find the chart in the book but his discussions on the wrists are consistent with the chart. Helps to refresh on the definition of steep/ shallow too ( at least it helped me).

[glk]

Tyler's response.

What is the rationale on lead wrist flexion being a steepener?

Thanks Guy

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Guy K 12 hours ago

+Guy K

Can lead wrist flexion serve as a shallower at any point of the swing? Or is it solely a

Steepener?

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Tyler F 8 hours ago

+Guy K I can't think of one, but what are you imagining?

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Tyler F 8 hours ago

+Guy K My main criteria is things that widen the arc = shallow, things that swing more horizontally = shallow. Lead wrist flexion definitely narrows the arc and the effect on the horizontal vs vertical motion of the club head is pretty minimal. But another useful way to think about it is, what other movements compliment this move? Most of the moves that compliment lead wrist flexion (ulnar deviation and side bend) are shallowers.

 

[barnum1]

Ulnar deviation, that was a new term for me. I understand that it is unhinge (or not hinging), but wouldn't that hurt the lag and thus the clubhead speed? Could really "bowing, not hinging" (as Eric shows) create the same speed as just hinging?

[glk]

> @barnum1 said:

> Ulnar deviation, that was a new term for me. I understand that it is unhinge (or not hinging), but wouldn't that hurt the lag and thus the clubhead speed? Could really "bowing, not hinging" (as Eric shows) create the same speed as just hinging?

UD is important fir shaft lean. If you retain your hinge,RD, you are going to kick the shaft out early and come down steep and out to in.

[chigolfer1]

Some good videos out there on this:

 

[barnum1]

Interesting, thanks for the videos.

About the Martin Chuck video, our pro would call that casting. Do the pros unhinge that early?

(Personally, I'm not good at holding the lag, so I probably unhinge it like those videos. I just need to work on the flexion.)

[glk]

> @barnum1 said:

> Interesting, thanks for the videos.

> About the Martin Chuck video, our pro would call that casting. Do the pros unhinge that early?

> (Personally, I'm not good at holding the lag, so I probably unhinge it like those videos. I just need to work on the flexion.)

 

There is variaibility in all golfers but in general UD starts at the being of release. Here's Cheetham's chart on wrists from his phd dissertation.


 

[barnum1]

Again, very interesting.

Does this mean that lead wrist *starts* going from RD to UD at start of release? And is neutral halfway between start of release and impact?

 

What is the definition of release here (the green line)?

[glk]

> @barnum1 said:

> Again, very interesting.

> Does this mean that lead wrist *starts* going from RD to UD at start of release? And is neutral halfway between start of release and impact?

>

> What is the definition of release here (the green line)?

Note the avatar position. Yes, note the red line start to Ud - below the line is rd above ud. Release typically starts somewhere around p5.5. Earlier than shaft parallel in downswing. I like to think of it as the phase of the swing where the focus is transferring all the energy generated in transition etc to the clubhead.

 

[barnum1]

Ok, I think I understand. Lead wrist is not UD at the position the avatar shows, but starting to get to UD.

What about the flexion/extension-line? What is under, what is above?

[glk]

> @barnum1 said:

> Ok, I think I understand. Lead wrist is not UD at the position the avatar shows, but starting to get to UD.

> What about the flexion/extension-line? What is under, what is above?

Under is extended, over flexed. Note that just before impact the wrist begins extending - not necessarily extended but extending. Some folks still do not believe this and go to great lengths with full 2d video to say it ain’t so.

The line of supination is important too - Ud enables one to really supination thru the release - the combo of us and extending the arms thru release will naturally supinate the lead arm - as the graph notes good swing supinate earlier and more than poor swings. A mini mind blow is that both forearms supinate thru release with the trail finally pronating close to impact.

 

[barnum1]

So no bowing at the top, isn't that surprising?

[glk]

> @barnum1 said:

> So no bowing at the top, isn't that surprising?

There are plenty who bow at the top. The flexing has a lot of variability. Some flex in the backswing and hold or add to it, other in transition, and even some do it as late as release. I found for me I prefer flex at end of backswing and add/hold - being extended and flexing isn’t something I find I can do consistently.

 

 

 

[barnum1]

By the way, what golfers is the Cheetham chart based on?

[glk]

> @barnum1 said:

> By the way, what golfers is the Cheetham chart based on?

 

He had 3d of 94 tour pros. He does not name the golfer he used for the examples.

https://www.philcheetham.com/media/Phillip-Cheetham-Doctoral-Dissertation-2014.pdf

[barnum1]

Continuing this thread...

 

I've been looking at the motorcycle move in Golf Smart Academy, and am I right in thinking that the reason for lead wrist flexion (bowing) is shaft lean at impact?

Because if you want to have shaft lean ( which you do for a number of reasons), the only way to get a square club face to the target is lead wrist flexion (at start of release).

 

Let's say I don't want shaft lean - maybe for a bunker shot or a lob wedge. Then would lead wrist flexion (at start of release) not work?

(I guess that's the same as saying that if you want a steep swing - like in the bunker - you would not have lead wrist flexion (at start of release)).

 

Just my thoughts...

[Fort Worth Pro]

> @barnum1 said:

> By the way, what golfers is the Cheetham chart based on?

 

 

Don’t know that it is but looks like that could easily be Jason day. Very similar to some of his I have seen. Also to someone who asked about being bowed at the top...in one of the largest databases of tour players in the world 72% were over 5 degrees extended at the top. The LARGE majority are not quite flat much less bowed.

 

[Fort Worth Pro]

Also...anyone wanting to learn about the wrist movements in the golf swing should buy Jon Sinclair’s new video on wrist movement. Tremendous content (no I am not Jon for those wondering ?)

[dblinden]

_Also...anyone wanting to learn about the wrist movements in the golf swing should buy Jon Sinclair’s new video on wrist movement. Tremendous content (no I am not Jon for those wondering ?)_

 

On a lighter note, check out Jon Sinclair's homepage. Great photo of Tyler Ferrell with left wrist massively cupped at top of backswing!!!