Adidas Climachill

[Chilidog]

[quote name='Fisher' timestamp='1400678590' post='9338551']
[quote name='Chilidog' timestamp='1400327913' post='9313215']
[quote name='ZBigStick' timestamp='1400308102' post='9312843']
Aluminum is a very good conducting material. It serves to carry heat away from the body to the shirt where it can cool with air, that is cooler than the body. No snake oil here.
[/quote]

This is not true. Metal is not directional. It doesn't move heat or cold in one way and not the other. These will warm or cool to their surroundings. In this warming against your body. Snake oil.
[/quote]

While I really don't care about whether or not the shirt "works", what I do care about is science. If there is raised aluminum touching the skin but is being covered by a material which is not allowing the sun to directly come in contact with the aluminum, then the dots would work as a heatsink, at least theoretically. Similar to how a computer's CPU heatsink works. It is placed on the CPU, heat is transferred through the aluminum and, due to increased surface area, more heat is dispersed at a quicker rate. Though, if the aluminum dots are exposed to direct sunlight or if the dots are perfectly flat against the wearer then they will absolutely cause the wearer's neck to become hotter.
[/quote]

Unfortunately, these do sit flat against the skin.

[HackerDad78]

[quote name='HackerDav31' timestamp='1400651081' post='9337455']
[quote name='Chilidog' timestamp='1400414240' post='9317499']
7) you said you are in the apparel industry. I'm wondering in what capacity you have walked into the doors of both Nike and Adidas? The only way possible is as a supplier. So are you a fabric or yarn supplier?
[/quote]

I wouldn't say that's the only way. I was a designer in the industry and had the opportunity to work with brands, including Nike, adidas, UA, Oakley, and Polo. I may not know the extent to which you do about textiles, nor do I care to, but it takes a lot more to design, develop, market, and sell apparel and footwear than strict adherence to the vocabulary of fabric development. Consumers can't understand any of the things you've talked about, and to convey a message about the benefits of their products, brands need to employ design cues, sound bites, and easy to understand benefits. In other words, they need to connect with a consumer. It may not require the same tools you employ, but there is an art to that as well, just ask the biggest brands in the world.
[/quote]

You're talking about textile marketing. I'm talking about the marketing of a product for a brand. To me, there's a chasm of difference.

[HackerDad78]

[quote name='Chilidog' timestamp='1400679851' post='9338725']
[quote name='Fisher' timestamp='1400678590' post='9338551']
[quote name='Chilidog' timestamp='1400327913' post='9313215']
[quote name='ZBigStick' timestamp='1400308102' post='9312843']
Aluminum is a very good conducting material. It serves to carry heat away from the body to the shirt where it can cool with air, that is cooler than the body. No snake oil here.
[/quote]

This is not true. Metal is not directional. It doesn't move heat or cold in one way and not the other. These will warm or cool to their surroundings. In this warming against your body. Snake oil.
[/quote]

While I really don't care about whether or not the shirt "works", what I do care about is science. If there is raised aluminum touching the skin but is being covered by a material which is not allowing the sun to directly come in contact with the aluminum, then the dots would work as a heatsink, at least theoretically. Similar to how a computer's CPU heatsink works. It is placed on the CPU, heat is transferred through the aluminum and, due to increased surface area, more heat is dispersed at a quicker rate. Though, if the aluminum dots are exposed to direct sunlight or if the dots are perfectly flat against the wearer then they will absolutely cause the wearer's neck to become hotter.
[/quote]

Unfortunately, these do sit flat against the skin.
[/quote]

They're actually convex, and they're not exposed to direct sunlight since they're bonded to the textile on one side and covered on the other so I'm a little confused on this point. Could you elaborate? Not being a smart a**, genuinely asking…

[Chilidog]

[quote name='HackerDav31' timestamp='1400705346' post='9341707']
[quote name='HackerDav31' timestamp='1400651081' post='9337455']
[quote name='Chilidog' timestamp='1400414240' post='9317499']
7) you said you are in the apparel industry. I'm wondering in what capacity you have walked into the doors of both Nike and Adidas? The only way possible is as a supplier. So are you a fabric or yarn supplier?
[/quote]

I wouldn't say that's the only way. I was a designer in the industry and had the opportunity to work with brands, including Nike, adidas, UA, Oakley, and Polo. I may not know the extent to which you do about textiles, nor do I care to, but it takes a lot more to design, develop, market, and sell apparel and footwear than strict adherence to the vocabulary of fabric development. Consumers can't understand any of the things you've talked about, and to convey a message about the benefits of their products, brands need to employ design cues, sound bites, and easy to understand benefits. In other words, they need to connect with a consumer. It may not require the same tools you employ, but there is an art to that as well, just ask the biggest brands in the world.
[/quote]

You're talking about textile marketing. I'm talking about the marketing of a product for a brand. To me, there's a chasm of difference.
[/quote]

Ummmm....we have several Brands and run national commercials as well sponsoring The X Games, NFL and Marvel. I have a textile and marketing education. I can play on both sides of those fences....wait, what? : )

[Chilidog]

[quote name='HackerDav31' timestamp='1400705467' post='9341727']
[quote name='Chilidog' timestamp='1400679851' post='9338725']
[quote name='Fisher' timestamp='1400678590' post='9338551']
[quote name='Chilidog' timestamp='1400327913' post='9313215']
[quote name='ZBigStick' timestamp='1400308102' post='9312843']
Aluminum is a very good conducting material. It serves to carry heat away from the body to the shirt where it can cool with air, that is cooler than the body. No snake oil here.
[/quote]

This is not true. Metal is not directional. It doesn't move heat or cold in one way and not the other. These will warm or cool to their surroundings. In this warming against your body. Snake oil.
[/quote]

While I really don't care about whether or not the shirt "works", what I do care about is science. If there is raised aluminum touching the skin but is being covered by a material which is not allowing the sun to directly come in contact with the aluminum, then the dots would work as a heatsink, at least theoretically. Similar to how a computer's CPU heatsink works. It is placed on the CPU, heat is transferred through the aluminum and, due to increased surface area, more heat is dispersed at a quicker rate. Though, if the aluminum dots are exposed to direct sunlight or if the dots are perfectly flat against the wearer then they will absolutely cause the wearer's neck to become hotter.
[/quote]

Unfortunately, these do sit flat against the skin.
[/quote]

They're actually convex, and they're not exposed to direct sunlight since they're bonded to the textile on one side and covered on the other so I'm a little confused on this point. Could you elaborate? Not being a smart a**, genuinely asking…
[/quote]

Are you asking me or Fisher?

[HackerDad78]

[quote name='Chilidog' timestamp='1400711337' post='9342349']
[quote name='HackerDav31' timestamp='1400705346' post='9341707']
[quote name='HackerDav31' timestamp='1400651081' post='9337455']
[quote name='Chilidog' timestamp='1400414240' post='9317499']
7) you said you are in the apparel industry. I'm wondering in what capacity you have walked into the doors of both Nike and Adidas? The only way possible is as a supplier. So are you a fabric or yarn supplier?
[/quote]

I wouldn't say that's the only way. I was a designer in the industry and had the opportunity to work with brands, including Nike, adidas, UA, Oakley, and Polo. I may not know the extent to which you do about textiles, nor do I care to, but it takes a lot more to design, develop, market, and sell apparel and footwear than strict adherence to the vocabulary of fabric development. Consumers can't understand any of the things you've talked about, and to convey a message about the benefits of their products, brands need to employ design cues, sound bites, and easy to understand benefits. In other words, they need to connect with a consumer. It may not require the same tools you employ, but there is an art to that as well, just ask the biggest brands in the world.
[/quote]

You're talking about textile marketing. I'm talking about the marketing of a product for a brand. To me, there's a chasm of difference.
[/quote]

Ummmm....we have several Brands and run national commercials as well sponsoring The X Games, NFL and Marvel. I have a textile and marketing education. I can play on both sides of those fences....wait, what? : )
[/quote]

Wow... Forget it man. Congrats. You win the forums... Not worth the energy to type anymore.

[Chilidog]

[quote name='HackerDav31' timestamp='1400733383' post='9344947']
[quote name='Chilidog' timestamp='1400711337' post='9342349']
[quote name='HackerDav31' timestamp='1400705346' post='9341707']
[quote name='HackerDav31' timestamp='1400651081' post='9337455']
[quote name='Chilidog' timestamp='1400414240' post='9317499']
7) you said you are in the apparel industry. I'm wondering in what capacity you have walked into the doors of both Nike and Adidas? The only way possible is as a supplier. So are you a fabric or yarn supplier?
[/quote]

I wouldn't say that's the only way. I was a designer in the industry and had the opportunity to work with brands, including Nike, adidas, UA, Oakley, and Polo. I may not know the extent to which you do about textiles, nor do I care to, but it takes a lot more to design, develop, market, and sell apparel and footwear than strict adherence to the vocabulary of fabric development. Consumers can't understand any of the things you've talked about, and to convey a message about the benefits of their products, brands need to employ design cues, sound bites, and easy to understand benefits. In other words, they need to connect with a consumer. It may not require the same tools you employ, but there is an art to that as well, just ask the biggest brands in the world.
[/quote]

You're talking about textile marketing. I'm talking about the marketing of a product for a brand. To me, there's a chasm of difference.
[/quote]

Ummmm....we have several Brands and run national commercials as well sponsoring The X Games, NFL and Marvel. I have a textile and marketing education. I can play on both sides of those fences....wait, what? : )
[/quote]

Wow... Forget it man. Congrats. You win the forums... Not worth the energy to type anymore.
[/quote]

Did not realize this was a contest instead of a discussion. You continually tried to discount that I didn't understand marketing or how to relate technology to a consumer, so I tried to help you understand that I do that every day. I said way back in the beginning of this thread that if the consumer felt it to be cold, then good for them. I just know the history on this product and Adidas's ignoring of the test data.

[kurob]

[quote name='Fisher' timestamp='1400678590' post='9338551']
[quote name='Chilidog' timestamp='1400327913' post='9313215']
[quote name='ZBigStick' timestamp='1400308102' post='9312843']
Aluminum is a very good conducting material. It serves to carry heat away from the body to the shirt where it can cool with air, that is cooler than the body. No snake oil here.
[/quote]

This is not true. Metal is not directional. It doesn't move heat or cold in one way and not the other. These will warm or cool to their surroundings. In this warming against your body. Snake oil.
[/quote]

While I really don't care about whether or not the shirt "works", what I do care about is science. If there is raised aluminum touching the skin but is being covered by a material which is not allowing the sun to directly come in contact with the aluminum, then the dots would work as a heatsink, at least theoretically. Similar to how a computer's CPU heatsink works. It is placed on the CPU, heat is transferred through the aluminum and, due to increased surface area, more heat is dispersed at a quicker rate. Though, if the aluminum dots are exposed to direct sunlight or if the dots are perfectly flat against the wearer then they will absolutely cause the wearer's neck to become hotter.
[/quote]

This is absolutely right. Metal doesn't have to be directional to act as a heat sink, it only needs termperature variance across it and specific heat that is useful to the application. These dots of aluminum are (theoretically) designed to act exactly like tiny CPU heat sinks...the convex connection to the body being the processor die and the larger surface area attached to the shirt and exposed to airflow being the fins. If the dots occasionally break contact with your body as you move, even better.

I have not tried the shirt...it may be snake oil, but the thermodynamic principles are sound enough that we can't immediately call BS.

[Jeckert07]

I have a climachill shirt and it's actually pretty cool (no pun intended). The dots do feel cool on your back, not sure if it actually keeps you cooler but it does give off a nice feel...

[Rebel420]

[quote name='ZBigStick' timestamp='1400308102' post='9312843']
Aluminum is a very good conducting material. It serves to carry heat away from the body to the shirt where it can cool with air, that is cooler than the body. No snake oil here.
[/quote]
I agree 1000%. Unless the whole semiconductor industry engineers are dumber than those who think everything is a gimmick...I mean, they slap aluminum heat sinks on any processor out there that could get hot..

[mccjud]

Chili & others, a few questions about the dryer sheets.

1) if using any dryer which has previously used dryer sheets, is it recommended to NOT use that dryer without a dryer sheet, or is it OK.
2) is air drying more recommended?
3) if neither, what washing & drying process is the best to make sure the chemicals applied to help with wicking last as long as possible?

Thanks for the insight!

Judson

[Jimmy Mac]

[quote name='mccjud' timestamp='1401050126' post='9365109']
Chili & others, a few questions about the dryer sheets.

1) if using any dryer which has previously used dryer sheets, is it recommended to NOT use that dryer without a dryer sheet, or is it OK.
2) is air drying more recommended?
3) if neither, what washing & drying process is the best to make sure the chemicals applied to help with wicking last as long as possible?

Thanks for the insight!

Judson
[/quote]


My understanding is:

1) The dryer sheet likely leaves some residue on the drum of the machine, but not so much that you simply couldn't ever use that machine again. If you're really worried, just run a load of damp towels with no added sheet prior to your sports gear.

2) Air drying is the best choice for just about any garment made from a single layer of fabric. If nothing else, it saves a lot of wear and tear from the dryer. Most people don't have the patience for line drying anymore. Never dry on high heat.
.
3) If you really want to maximize the wicking, just get any of the many sports-specific detergents (i.e. Nathan SportWash, Nikwax TechWash) on the market. Definitely avoid fabric softener, whether it's built into the detergent, in a wash additive or on a dryer sheet. Wash on gentle, line dry.


Also, my understanding is that it's not really chemicals that help the wicking. The fibers used in the shirts have a microscopic texture built into them that encourages the wicking, when you use a dryer sheet, you fill in all of that texture, making it smooth and canceling out all of the benefit.

In the case of outerwear, when you're talking about "chemicals applied" - that would refer to a DWR (durable water resistant) coating. Breathable (not quite the same as wicking) fabric is inherently not waterproof, to make it much more water resistant, manufacturers add a coating to the exterior of the fabric that encourages water to bead up and roll off. Sort of like putting Rain X on your windshield.

DWR wears off over time, usually you an tell when you start to see the surface of the fabric holding water. In this case, a tumble in a warm dryer actually will help the garment (still no fabric softener). You can also get sprays to refresh the coating.

[garethw]

I brought one of these Saturday mainly due to it being the only one in Western Sizes in the shop I was in. The heat and humidity in Jakarta mid day is bad. I find myself soaked with sweat and talcing that area below the waist wear the sweat runs every 4 or 5 holes. After 18 I'm generally soaked in sweat.

Saturday afternoon I wore the climacool for the first time and i can honestly say that was the most sweat free round I have played. My head was still sweating but my upper body was virtually sweat free. I don't know how it works but it does.

[Chilidog]

So, intrigued by this thread over the last week, when I got back to the office today I pulled out the work we did on this over a year ago. When I looked at the fabric it sparked the memories of this project. First, this is a double knit construction. What that means is they basically knit two pieces of fabric together to form one fabric. This is the same construction used for thermal properties in Cold Gear products. But, it was the only way they had to adhere the aluminum. Secondly, this fabric had the worst wicking performance of any fabric we tested last year due to its density. You basically end up wearing a plastic bag that sticks to you. So, you are double the weight of a normal golf shirt and it doesn't wick. Instead it has a great CLO value for thermal properties. Not seeing how you guys could even remotely find this comfortable in the heat.

[Chilidog]

[quote name='Jimmy Mac' timestamp='1401104721' post='9367765']
[quote name='mccjud' timestamp='1401050126' post='9365109']
Chili & others, a few questions about the dryer sheets.

1) if using any dryer which has previously used dryer sheets, is it recommended to NOT use that dryer without a dryer sheet, or is it OK.
2) is air drying more recommended?
3) if neither, what washing & drying process is the best to make sure the chemicals applied to help with wicking last as long as possible?

Thanks for the insight!

Judson
[/quote]


My understanding is:

1) The dryer sheet likely leaves some residue on the drum of the machine, but not so much that you simply couldn't ever use that machine again. If you're really worried, just run a load of damp towels with no added sheet prior to your sports gear.

2) Air drying is the best choice for just about any garment made from a single layer of fabric. If nothing else, it saves a lot of wear and tear from the dryer. Most people don't have the patience for line drying anymore. Never dry on high heat.
.
3) If you really want to maximize the wicking, just get any of the many sports-specific detergents (i.e. Nathan SportWash, Nikwax TechWash) on the market. Definitely avoid fabric softener, whether it's built into the detergent, in a wash additive or on a dryer sheet. Wash on gentle, line dry.


Also, my understanding is that it's not really chemicals that help the wicking. The fibers used in the shirts have a microscopic texture built into them that encourages the wicking, when you use a dryer sheet, you fill in all of that texture, making it smooth and canceling out all of the benefit.

In the case of outerwear, when you're talking about "chemicals applied" - that would refer to a DWR (durable water resistant) coating. Breathable (not quite the same as wicking) fabric is inherently not waterproof, to make it much more water resistant, manufacturers add a coating to the exterior of the fabric that encourages water to bead up and roll off. Sort of like putting Rain X on your windshield.

DWR wears off over time, usually you an tell when you start to see the surface of the fabric holding water. In this case, a tumble in a warm dryer actually will help the garment (still no fabric softener). You can also get sprays to refresh the coating.
[/quote]

Most wicking features are topically added to the fabric during finishing. There are some channeled cross sections such as Coolmax but they make up about 15% of the total market.

[FSCMatt]

[quote name='Chilidog' timestamp='1401234833' post='9377589']So, intrigued by this thread over the last week, when I got back to the office today I pulled out the work we did on this over a year ago. When I looked at the fabric it sparked the memories of this project. First, this is a double knit construction. What that means is they basically knit two pieces of fabric together to form one fabric. This is the same construction used for thermal properties in Cold Gear products. But, it was the only way they had to adhere the aluminum. Secondly, this fabric had the worst wicking performance of any fabric we tested last year due to its density. You basically end up wearing a plastic bag that sticks to you. So, you are double the weight of a normal golf shirt and it doesn't wick. Instead it has a great CLO value for thermal properties. Not seeing how you guys could even remotely find this comfortable in the heat.[/quote]

While I understand your company has done the research for this shirt I don't get that type of feeling from the shirt when I wear it.

What you're saying makes sense to me, I just didn't get that experience from the shirt. I wore it on a cooler day (65 windy and sunny) and the aluminum dots actually made me cold. When I've worn it on hot days (80+) I didn't see a big difference from the dots.

I still think the shirt looks really good even if it doesn't work. Lol

[clinkinfo]

this is a funny discussion. I find the climachill line one of the best shirts for cooling. All the other brands seem like marketing bs, but the clima chill (not cool) line really does work well for me, it’s noticeable.