Titleist Marketing - or lack there of

[bheck23]

I don't know if this has been brought up for sure yet or that it is even true but I was told by my Titleist rep that the company doesn't make money off golf clubs. He said they make money off the ball. Now I don't know if it is true or not but if it is, why pay for a huge tour staff. They know who their market is and as long as they keep bringing good equipment to them they will keep buying it no matter who is playing it on tour. On the other hand the 983K got a nice boost from Ernie in Hawaii a few years ago. I guess you can look at it both ways but I do agree with the comments about the constantly changing equipment with some companies. It really comes down to if the comsumer wants to buy it. I wouldn't play a driver I hated just because it was the same as Tigers. I guess some would though.

[surfanimal]

I have read this discussion, find it interesting and have only one question to ask, If Nike golf was peeled away from the corporate giant parent company and was a golf only company, could they pay the endorsement contracts and be in the black at the end of every year?

 

I think so. His contract extention with nike in 2000 was only (yeah, i know, i'm saying only) $105m. Wikipedias article on Tiger mentions that it is estimated that nike golf rakes $600m in sales. I don't know how much his current contract is for, but it doesn't seem that Nike is worried about the golf division being in the red.

[StaffBag]

I don't know if this has been brought up for sure yet or that it is even true but I was told by my Titleist rep that the company doesn't make money off golf clubs. He said they make money off the ball. Now I don't know if it is true or not but if it is, why pay for a huge tour staff. They know who their market is and as long as they keep bringing good equipment to them they will keep buying it no matter who is playing it on tour. On the other hand the 983K got a nice boost from Ernie in Hawaii a few years ago. I guess you can look at it both ways but I do agree with the comments about the constantly changing equipment with some companies. It really comes down to if the comsumer wants to buy it. I wouldn't play a driver I hated just because it was the same as Tigers. I guess some would though.

 

 

I have a hard time believing any of that! Titleist isn't out there as a company to NOT make money on a division of their company. They make BANK on the golf ball division, for sure, but they have been doing plenty well on clubs. Sure, it is not as large as it probably could be, but I don't believe they are losing money on golf clubs.

 

Titleist HAS decided to go out now and alter their position in the market other than just marketing thier clubs to the "low handicap" players. They have scrapped all the previous ideas and lines from last year, and earlier, and have revamped and streamlined things into 4 sets of irons. All are designed to focus on different levels of players, with the ZM, ZB, AP1, & AP2 iron lines. Before, Titelist pushed all thier game improvement clubs onto Cobra. Now, they are also going to make a huge push in 2008.

 

So far, the AP line is a WINNER!!!! I think that this is a good move to a fresh approach to keep Titleist a major player in the golf industry in items other than just golf balls!

 

:man_in_love:

[bheck23]

I don't know if this has been brought up for sure yet or that it is even true but I was told by my Titleist rep that the company doesn't make money off golf clubs. He said they make money off the ball. Now I don't know if it is true or not but if it is, why pay for a huge tour staff. They know who their market is and as long as they keep bringing good equipment to them they will keep buying it no matter who is playing it on tour. On the other hand the 983K got a nice boost from Ernie in Hawaii a few years ago. I guess you can look at it both ways but I do agree with the comments about the constantly changing equipment with some companies. It really comes down to if the comsumer wants to buy it. I wouldn't play a driver I hated just because it was the same as Tigers. I guess some would though.

 

 

I have a hard time believing any of that! Titleist isn't out there as a company to NOT make money on a division of their company. They make BANK on the golf ball division, for sure, but they have been doing plenty well on clubs. Sure, it is not as large as it probably could be, but I don't believe they are losing money on golf clubs.

 

Titleist HAS decided to go out now and alter their position in the market other than just marketing thier clubs to the "low handicap" players. They have scrapped all the previous ideas and lines from last year, and earlier, and have revamped and streamlined things into 4 sets of irons. All are designed to focus on different levels of players, with the ZM, ZB, AP1, & AP2 iron lines. Before, Titelist pushed all thier game improvement clubs onto Cobra. Now, they are also going to make a huge push in 2008.

 

So far, the AP line is a WINNER!!!! I think that this is a good move to a fresh approach to keep Titleist a major player in the golf industry in items other than just golf balls!

 

:man_in_love:

 

I didn't say he said they are loosing money he just said they aren't making any. I am just relaying the info to. I don't believe it myself.

[kenan]

Great thread...one thing not mentioned is the amount of equipment Titleist sells in the top private country clubs. I have been lucky enough to play some of these clubs and I can tell you most stock more Titleist gear then any other brand. Not to mention the number of pairs of Footjoys sold. Perfect demographics to promote your product.

[hef63303]

Here are a couple of things to consider. Nike pays Tiger a lot of money and he probably earns it but not for golf club sales. Nike sales of clubs are estmated at a little over $80 million. They are not in the top 5 of any golf club category. They sell a ton of clothing and shoes. That is where Tiger helps them the most. Titleist has let a number of guys leave in the middle of contracts when the player wanted to re-negotiate in the middle of the contract. Kudos for them for not caving in. If I owned stock in Fortune Brands, I would be very happy with their decisions. It has not seemed to slow down ball sales.

[frozen_rope]

Other company's paying more, that's all.

 

First let me start off by saying I am a huge Titleist equipment fan. I have played Titleist irons (962's & 735's) for the past decade and still am searching for a driver as solid feeling as my old 975D. That said ...

 

Has Titleist given up completely on marketing their non-ball products? With the recent loss of Els I am wondering who the next big name to leave Titleist will be. Last year they lost Glover - I know, no big loss but he was a good young player at the time. Obvious past big names include Mickelson, Woods, etc. I guess my real question is why do they continue to fight paying the players what they are worth when other companies (Callaway, Taylormade, Nike) will step up to the plate?

 

My only guess is that they truly are a ball company, and think of their equipment as an afterthought. Or maybe they feel the benefit of signing big name players doesn't exist, and that the general public will make an educated decision on the best equipment, not the most popular. With advertising maxims like "sex sells" though, I think that is a bad assumption to make.

 

I don't intend for this to be a "Callaway/Taylormade/Nike/Titleist" equipment bashing post. I just want to get others thoughts why Titleist continues to lose players to other manufacturers.

 

Thanks for your comments.

[squarre]

I don't know if this has been brought up for sure yet or that it is even true but I was told by my Titleist rep that the company doesn't make money off golf clubs. He said they make money off the ball. Now I don't know if it is true or not but if it is, why pay for a huge tour staff. They know who their market is and as long as they keep bringing good equipment to them they will keep buying it no matter who is playing it on tour. On the other hand the 983K got a nice boost from Ernie in Hawaii a few years ago. I guess you can look at it both ways but I do agree with the comments about the constantly changing equipment with some companies. It really comes down to if the comsumer wants to buy it. I wouldn't play a driver I hated just because it was the same as Tigers. I guess some would though.

 

 

I have a hard time believing any of that! Titleist isn't out there as a company to NOT make money on a division of their company. They make BANK on the golf ball division, for sure, but they have been doing plenty well on clubs. Sure, it is not as large as it probably could be, but I don't believe they are losing money on golf clubs.

 

Titleist HAS decided to go out now and alter their position in the market other than just marketing thier clubs to the "low handicap" players. They have scrapped all the previous ideas and lines from last year, and earlier, and have revamped and streamlined things into 4 sets of irons. All are designed to focus on different levels of players, with the ZM, ZB, AP1, & AP2 iron lines. Before, Titelist pushed all thier game improvement clubs onto Cobra. Now, they are also going to make a huge push in 2008.

 

So far, the AP line is a WINNER!!!! I think that this is a good move to a fresh approach to keep Titleist a major player in the golf industry in items other than just golf balls!

 

:man_in_love:

 

I didn't say he said they are loosing money he just said they aren't making any. I am just relaying the info to. I don't believe it myself.

 

I guarantee you they make money off clubs. Otherwise they wouldn't be in the club business. Also if you read Fortune's annual report you will see that the report specifically mentions an increase in net sales & revenue due to new club introductions.

 

Obviously everything begins with the ball and my guess is that the rep was saying that the company makes the big money off balls. This doesn't mean they make no money off clubs, just that the most of the money is from the ball side.

[StaffBag]

I don't know if this has been brought up for sure yet or that it is even true but I was told by my Titleist rep that the company doesn't make money off golf clubs. He said they make money off the ball. Now I don't know if it is true or not but if it is, why pay for a huge tour staff. They know who their market is and as long as they keep bringing good equipment to them they will keep buying it no matter who is playing it on tour. On the other hand the 983K got a nice boost from Ernie in Hawaii a few years ago. I guess you can look at it both ways but I do agree with the comments about the constantly changing equipment with some companies. It really comes down to if the comsumer wants to buy it. I wouldn't play a driver I hated just because it was the same as Tigers. I guess some would though.

 

 

I have a hard time believing any of that! Titleist isn't out there as a company to NOT make money on a division of their company. They make BANK on the golf ball division, for sure, but they have been doing plenty well on clubs. Sure, it is not as large as it probably could be, but I don't believe they are losing money on golf clubs.

 

Titleist HAS decided to go out now and alter their position in the market other than just marketing thier clubs to the "low handicap" players. They have scrapped all the previous ideas and lines from last year, and earlier, and have revamped and streamlined things into 4 sets of irons. All are designed to focus on different levels of players, with the ZM, ZB, AP1, & AP2 iron lines. Before, Titelist pushed all thier game improvement clubs onto Cobra. Now, they are also going to make a huge push in 2008.

 

So far, the AP line is a WINNER!!!! I think that this is a good move to a fresh approach to keep Titleist a major player in the golf industry in items other than just golf balls!

 

:man_in_love:

 

I didn't say he said they are loosing money he just said they aren't making any. I am just relaying the info to. I don't believe it myself.

 

I guarantee you they make money off clubs. Otherwise they wouldn't be in the club business. Also if you read Fortune's annual report you will see that the report specifically mentions an increase in net sales & revenue due to new club introductions.

 

Obviously everything begins with the ball and my guess is that the rep was saying that the company makes the big money off balls. This doesn't mean they make no money off clubs, just that the most of the money is from the ball side.

 

 

Now... with the introduction of the AP line and the ZB's and ZM's, they are attempting to make a big play at the club market. It has been a part of thier company that they have even admitted to being more of a service than a true profit center. They have always targeted the better player for thier clubs and dumped the rest to Cobra. (As I stated earlier.) That is not the case any more. Cobra is now more of it's own thing under the Fortune Brand's umbrella, like FJ. Which is why Cobra now has "player's clubs" available too.

 

Just think... when was the last time you actually saw a Titleist ad in Golf Week or Golf World, or other mag that had nothing to do with GOLFBALLS?! You are now seeing it with the AP line of irons!!! (Along with some ads for 907 drivers.)

[geogolf]

Titleist - as far as the Pro Tours- seems to be the Ping of the modern Era.

 

Back in the Day, tons of College guys broke out on Tour using Pings- then when they hit the Big Time, signed with someone else. (Mickelson,Gamez,Daly,Tway and others). reason being was their players pool- rather than direct endorsements.

 

Titleist has gone through Tiger,Els,Mickelson & Sergio.....Still 3 of the top names, obviously.

 

Titleist as a Club Company did decide to place a bit more emphasis in the club pro world a few years back, rather than spending Millions to attend the PGA show in Orlando and Vegas.

 

Their new irons look to be a step in the right direction. Their drivers, with different models,all trace back easily to the original 975D and 976R models- 11 years ago. (appearance wise) That is something that is stale and needs revamped. It's one of the areas where Cobra seems to be more advanced in trying new things. While in the 11 years since the 975 976 models..I bet Taylor Made has had 80 different driver offerings.

 

All that being said, Golf Balls is their bread and butter. They make the majority of their profits in the ball sector. And a Titleist reps bread and butter is going to be: selling balls. Always has been.

[StaffBag]

Titleist - as far as the Pro Tours- seems to be the Ping of the modern Era.

 

Back in the Day, tons of College guys broke out on Tour using Pings- then when they hit the Big Time, signed with someone else. (Mickelson,Gamez,Daly,Tway and others). reason being was their players pool- rather than direct endorsements.

 

Titleist has gone through Tiger,Els,Mickelson & Sergio.....Still 3 of the top names, obviously.

 

Titleist as a Club Company did decide to place a bit more emphasis in the club pro world a few years back, rather than spending Millions to attend the PGA show in Orlando and Vegas.

 

Their new irons look to be a step in the right direction. Their drivers, with different models,all trace back easily to the original 975D and 976R models- 11 years ago. (appearance wise) That is something that is stale and needs revamped. It's one of the areas where Cobra seems to be more advanced in trying new things. While in the 11 years since the 975 976 models..I bet Taylor Made has had 80 different driver offerings.

 

All that being said, Golf Balls is their bread and butter. They make the majority of their profits in the ball sector. And a Titleist reps bread and butter is going to be: selling balls. Always has been.

 

 

In a sense there is hardly any real loyalty on TOUR any more for companies. Players staying with a company for more than 4 or 5 years now is rare!

 

The almighty dollar speaks loudly! If a company wants to make huge inroads on tour today they throw money at players. Some will change, some will not, but they will get a huge amount of TOUR exposure!

 

Titleist isn't the only company who has had defections to other companies! Remember, Els left Taylor Made for Titleist, before he left them for Callaway. Phil went from Yonex, to Titleist, to Callaway! Gore want from Nike to Cobra!

 

Just because players, no matter what the status level, leave company doesn't mean that company is done! Contracts go for a limited amount of time. IF the terms of the contract are up, the player can move on. Sometimes it is because a player wants out, too! (Ala C Howell III.) Any number of reasons are in play...they are not playing well and want a change, the company is starting to go in a direction they are not comfortable with, etc. it really doesn't matter the reason for change.

 

Unless you are Tiger, (who has been with Nike for about 10 years now) you are moving around from company to company to make MONEY! Nike threw enough cash at him right away and gave him designing rights for his clubs, clothing, etc. He also is extremely loyal. That is why he doesn't and hasn't changed.

 

Most other TOUR pros are............... well, prostitutes! Going with the highest bidder.

 

Titleist can't throw around that much cash and remain where they want to be positioned in the world of golf.

 

Titleist has decided to spread the wealth amoungst a large percentage of players everywhere. They also pass out an incredible amount of product. Some free (to the TOUR pros) and other at severe discounts to college programs, club pros, mini tour pros, etc.

[geogolf]

Also, the quality of equipment available is at such a high standard these days. A Player can switch and not really miss a step.

 

20 Years ago it was a MacGregor or Cleveland Driver. Wilson,Ping or Hogan irons. Ping Putters. And once you found something you liked you rarely changed.

 

We all remember guys who's games declined after equipment changes. Payne from Wilson to Top Flite. Pavin from Cleveland to PRGR. Hell Calc even strayed from Ping to the Tommy Armour 845 the year he shanked one on 17 at Kiawah-1991 Ryder Cup.

 

These days everything can be dialed in- which leads guys to be a bit more flexible..

[Xiphos]

Titlesit makes good stuff, but when the signed everyone, Phil, Tiger, Ernie, Sergio, etc. they had the Pro V1. No other company was even close in the ball category. I think they will continue to loose players as long as other companies make solid performing golf balls.

[shepdog]

I don't believe that Tiger added much to the Titleist coffers with him being one of their staff players. They had been around for years and had already established their niche in the club market. Whereas Tiger was a tremendous pickup for Nike. His name in this instance immediately established some credibility to a start up club manufacturer. The rest is history.

[sigmamason]

I have read this discussion, find it interesting and have only one question to ask, If Nike golf was peeled away from the corporate giant parent company and was a golf only company, could they pay the endorsement contracts and be in the black at the end of every year?

 

 

That could be said for all golf companies that are part of other companies

 

tm = adidas pockets

 

titleist = fortune brands...bet they sell more jim beam than golf balls

 

srixon is owned by SRI which produces some of the best selling tires in the world

 

let's get serious in thinking that many of these companies would be around in this economy without deep pockets from someone else...

[18th Legion]

Titileist understands that they need to change their strategy - as a result Jeff Harmet the then President of Cobra Golf was given the reigns of Titleist. See the entry of AP1 and AP2.

 

"Having identified Titleist’s problem, Harmet – the architect of Cobra’s revival into a $200 million-plus company – is introducing more playable clubs into Titleist’s product lineup. As big an initiative as this may be, industry observers say it’s important to keep the iron push in context: The No. 1 ball in golf always will be No. 1 within the company, too. Clubs are an ancillary business designed to keep the Titleist brand “top of mind” among consumers and help support the ball franchise."

 

Full article from Golfweek:

 

Iron supplement

 

By ADAM SCHUPAK

Senior Writer

 

When images of Titleist’s new AP irons surfaced on the Internet, discussion boards buzzed about their multimaterial composition, thicker top lines and forgiveness.

 

The description makes one blink hard, maybe twice, because so rarely have such words been paired with Titleist irons.

 

“This is definitely not your father’s 681s or DCIs,” says a message posted at Golfwrx.com, a Web site devoted to golf club enthusiasts.

 

For more than a decade, Titleist’s mission has been to make irons for better and aspiring players. While Titleist irons have been embraced by tour players, club professionals and U.S. Amateur competitors, that leadership story hasn’t translated into commercial success the way it has for Titleist’s core business, its ball franchise. For years, Titleist officials have excused lackluster iron sales, saying their narrow target audience capped revenue opportunities.

 

That pat response, however, didn’t sit well with Jeff Harmet. When the president of Cobra Golf took on the added duties of overseeing Titleist’s clubs a year ago, he conducted a top-to-bottom evaluation of the business. (Cobra and Titleist are owned by Acushnet Co.) A focus-group study of Titleist consumers revealed the brand was resonating with tour players and elite amateurs, but had lost touch with a segment of its target audience.

 

“We became too focused on the peak of the pyramid,” says Steve Pelisek, vice president of sales for Titleist clubs.

 

Having identified Titleist’s problem, Harmet – the architect of Cobra’s revival into a $200 million-plus company – is introducing more playable clubs into Titleist’s product lineup. As big an initiative as this may be, industry observers say it’s important to keep the iron push in context: The No. 1 ball in golf always will be No. 1 within the company, too. Clubs are an ancillary business designed to keep the Titleist brand “top of mind” among consumers and help support the ball franchise.

“Titleist doesn’t want the tail wagging the dog,” explains Leigh Bader, co-owner of Joe & Leigh’s Discount Golf Pro Shop at Pine Oaks Golf Course in South Easton, Mass.

 

But even Titleist officials concede their iron business was out of kilter. Though they professed reaching out to low, double-digit handicappers, their clubs said otherwise.

 

“Our product was designed for tour players and zero- to 4-handicaps,” Harmet says.

 

Adds Bader: “They had about eight models of forged blades at last count. They pretty much exploited that tiny niche.”

 

As a result, Titleist’s iron market share has fallen significantly over the past five years; in November, the most recent sales figures available, Titleist irons accounted for a 2.4 percent share at on- and off-course specialty shops, down from 7.7 percent in November 2002, according to Kissimmee, Fla.-based research firm Golf Datatech. In the past 12 months alone (November ’07 to November ’06), Titleist’s share has dropped nearly 50 percent.

 

“We have made more money selling Titleist bags, hats and accessories than Titleist clubs over the last couple of years,” says Drew Pettengill, equipment buyer for St. Augustine, Fla.-based PGA Tour Stop.

 

Harmet and his team have rededicated efforts to make irons that 5- to 10-handicaps and aspiring golfers in the 10- to 15-handicap range can play as well. To lead the charge, Titleist in May recruited Dan Stone, a club designer who worked 15 years at Cleveland Golf. Stone simplified Titleist’s lineup to four models that cover the gamut of better players more effectively. (The 695, 755 and other recent models will be discontinued.)

 

None of the changes should be confused with a shift in Titleist’s iron mission. The company still wants to be the preferred choice of the elite player. Of the four models it will offer, two are forged blades. The ZMs are a muscle-back forged iron with a compact head and features constant blade length. The ZB irons are a “blended set” of cavity-back long irons (2-4), partial-cavity mid-irons (5-7), and muscle-back short irons (8-PW). According to company officials, these two models are expected to account for 15 percent of sales and 50 percent of tour play.

 

The AP1 (Advanced Performance) represents the first major effort by Titleist to have a game-improvement iron. The AP1 is more forgiving and has a contemporary look that has been missing in Titleist’s lineup, according to Stone. The AP2 bridges the gap between the AP1 and the forged blades.

 

It is forged like the ZB but has the multimaterial construction of the AP1.

 

For all the excitement over the new offerings, some industry observers have noted that as Titleist broadens its appeal it could conflict with and undermine sales of Cobra, its game-improvement oriented sister brand. But Titleist officials dismiss that issue as a concern, saying the two brands maintain distinct identities, each targeting a group of consumers who approach the game differently.

 

Changing the aspiring golfer’s perception of Titleist irons will be a challenge, retailers say.

 

“It’s a hurdle,” says Jeff Caraway, vice president of marketing for Austad’s Golf Stores. “There are a lot of 12- to 15-handicappers who love the look of Titleist’s irons but say, ‘I’m not good enough.’ ”

 

Pelisek says the visible technology of the new AP irons will address the so-called “We’re not worthy” factor. To deliver the message that Titleist irons now are more user-friendly, the company plans to launch its most aggressive iron marketing campaign in more than five years, tripling its advertising budget and showcasing print ads that tout the performance benefits of AP irons. The iron launch also coincides with Titleist’s introduction of SureFit, the company’s first “quick-change” club-fitting system. (It enables clubheads and shafts to be swapped out almost effortlessly, providing greater fitting options easily.) A network of 3,000 Titleist fitters will be able to give consumers an opportunity to try and buy.

 

“Everyone we’re trying to sell clubs to already owns clubs,” Pelisek says. “When that’s the case, you have to give them a reason, and we think our expert network of fitters can show (them).”

[gtaj]

titleist has always been a ball brand - even back when i started playing 35+ years ago, titleist was 'the' ball to play, the most expensive and with the highest recognition. their clubs then were mainly a joke and in my mind remained that way until the 975D driver. macgregor, hagen, hogan, etc., made players clubs then (they were all "players clubs" in those days) only to fade away due to various reasons, not the least which include the rise of ping and callaway and their cast cavity backs. it seems titleist has inherited that ground due to some good designs and dwindling competion.

 

surely titleist must realize that the forged muscleback iron is going the way of persimmon quickly and thus are moving to produce a more mainstream club. i wonder what the ratio of professionals using muscleback to cavityback and/or forged to cast is now compared to just 3 or 5 years ago...?

[laguna79]

We all no thats it's NOT about the equipment when a contracted leaves or goes to a new manufacturer it's all about MONEY you can't honestly believe that the players change equipment for any other reason other than money !

 

Titleist obviously has made a business decision and made it policy not throw ridiculous amounts of money @ greedy pro's that play the companies against each other so they can line there own pockets .

 

If you where a shareholder of a company that's the kind management you would want in charge right !

[4WedgeBag]

Something about Titleist has always pissed me off. Maybe I wouldn't feel that way if I was a single digit handicap, but I prefer companies that cater to all golfers (not just the elite). It is more democratic and somehow seems more American. :)

[StaffBag]

Something about Titleist has always pissed me off. Maybe I wouldn't feel that way if I was a single digit handicap, but I prefer companies that cater to all golfers (not just the elite). It is more democratic and somehow seems more American. :)

 

Funny!

 

I have that same feeling towards Taylor Made and Callaway. (However, not as much for Cally as I do Taylor!)

 

I HATE the fact that Taylor Made keeps introducing new models about every 6 months. Most of the time before the preceeding "new" stuff that was just ordered isn't sold through yet and is now considered obsolete! Not to mention that everyone can buy BOTH the "new" models and the previously "new" models on ebay for LESS than they cost the golf shop at WHOLESALE!

 

THAT can pi$$ a guy off!