Kelvin Miyahira: pro or con

[Tod Johnson]

I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

Clearly.

 

My point is the nature of long drive requires kind of being under b/c they are hitting an extended driver as high as possible. The angle on the swing you posted sucks, but the head is still inside the hand plane = under. And he spins like a top and controls the face with a left bent arm... why chicken wing it? Maybe if he had better control of his left arm, he would be more consistent on his driver.

 

 

I'd like to come back to this, if you don't mind. How is Jamie "under plane"? Are Jack and Tiger 2000 also "under plane"? If so, you're saying that's a bad thing?

 

 

 

 

[tembolo1284]

swing sequence is pretty good.

[ej002]

I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

Clearly.

 

My point is the nature of long drive requires kind of being under b/c they are hitting an extended driver as high as possible. The angle on the swing you posted sucks, but the head is still inside the hand plane = under. And he spins like a top and controls the face with a left bent arm... why chicken wing it? Maybe if he had better control of his left arm, he would be more consistent on his driver.

 

 

I'd like to come back to this, if you don't mind. How is Jamie "under plane"? Are Jack and Tiger 2000 also "under plane"? If so, you're saying that's a bad thing?

 

 

 

 

 

Not sure what Tiger or Jack have to do with it, but either he came of that one or the camera is like 15* to the left. The ball goes left from that camera view big time. Also, put up p6 with your little line and imagine where the head would be if the camera was straight. Logic tricks again. basically a useless clip for your point.

 

[Tod Johnson]

 

Not sure what Tiger or Jack have to do with it, but either he came of that one or the camera is like 15* to the left. The ball goes left from that camera view big time. Also, put up p6 with your little line and imagine where the head would be if the camera was straight. Logic tricks again. basically a useless clip for your point.

 

 

 

My pleasure:

 

 

 

[ej002]

Now if you can only line that up with the ball flight you would see.

His hands are steep as all hell, so he drops is shoulder spins like a top, backs out, gets it under and chick wings it to hold on for dear life. It's really an ugly ugly swing. If he wasn't a small guy who hits it far - no one would pay attention. No thanks- it's gross. But I give him credit he is super athletic and strong. But I don't think anyone should model off him.

[ej002]

Tigers mechanics are way differnt. His shoulder isn't dropped at p6. So from there he is fine. He is much more on top. This is basic chit.

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1412277253' post='10225251']
[b]Tigers mechanics are way differnt. His shoulder isn't dropped at p6.[/b] So from there he is fine. He is much more on top. This is basic chit.
[/quote]

Tiger's right heel and right hip are elevated just like Jamie's, so he is creating LPT and plenty of lateral bend, especially for an iron. He's using the spine engine here big time. Their mechanics are more similar than you know.

[Tod Johnson]

Here is Jamie hitting it 331 off his knees. How much do you think the spine engine contributes relative to the hips and legs in that swing?

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33gxccY_FzU[/media]


Lucas is doing 220 yards carry; try doing that without a lot of lateral bend. Be sure to use an old driver:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yh_lfB1MhGY[/media]

[Tod Johnson]

Some more of my wily "logic tricks". Let's look at Jamie v. 2002 Tiger from similar angles:

 

 

 

Pretty similar, except I'd say Jamie has more right side lateral bend, so his hips and shoulders are more open than Tiger's. He's probably gonna generate 140mph of CHS v. Tiger's 125.

[Tod Johnson]

deleted duplicate post

[Tod Johnson]

Some more "logic tricks". Dueling deck chairs: which one has eight tour wins?

 

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412278337' post='10225341']
Here is Jamie hitting it 331 off his knees. How much do you think the spine engine contributes relative to the hips and legs in that swing?

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33gxccY_FzU[/media]


Lucas is doing 220 yards carry; try doing that without a lot of lateral bend. Be sure to use an old driver:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yh_lfB1MhGY[/media]
[/quote]

He still turns his hips..... Put a steel cage around his hips and tell me how far he hits it.

Those comparos to Tiger aren't anywhere as close as you make it out to be.

[pinhigh27]

Some more "logic tricks". Dueling deck chairs: which one has eight tour wins?

 

 

Dude it's one player. I can find people that won on tour that have swings of a 30 capper, that doesn't mean it's something to emulate.

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1412280079' post='10225499']
[b]He still turns his hips.....[/b] [/quote]

Exactly. The spine engine drives the rotation of the pelvis: lumbar lordosis plus lateral bend creates contralateral axial rotation of the pelvis.



[quote][b]Put a steel cage around his hips and tell me how far he hits it. [/b][/quote]

And put a steel cage around his back and tell me how fast he can walk.

[Tod Johnson]

Those comparos to Tiger aren't anywhere as close as you make it out to be.

 

 

Oh, yeah. I see what you mean...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1412274516' post='10225027']
[b]swing sequence is pretty good.[/b]
[/quote]


Thanks.

[ej002]

Some more of my wily "logic tricks". Let's look at Jamie v. 2002 Tiger from similar angles:

 

 

 

Pretty similar, except I'd say Jamie has more right side lateral bend, so his hips and shoulders are more open than Tiger's. He's probably gonna generate 140mph of CHS v. Tiger's 125.

 

What about the difference in how closed Tiger's shoulders still are and Sadlowski is falling back wide open?

 

Those comparos to Tiger aren't anywhere as close as you make it out to be.

 

 

Oh, yeah. I see what you mean...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It not even close, you keep posting and your hole your digging will leave you in China. If you aim right, maybe you will end up in Manila and you can get a lesson from eightiron... lol.

[JPGolf FL]

This is so bizzaro. We have 2 Jeff's who have their own forums on this forum pretending to be Tods and talking in third person about themselves and posting swings of themselves in third person. *facepalm*..... interwebz.

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1412282611' post='10225775']
This is so bizzaro. We have 2 Jeff's who have their own forums on this forum pretending to be Tods and talking in third person about themselves and posting swings of themselves in third person. *facepalm*..... interwebz.
[/quote]

I think everyone's in on the joke by now...

[Tod Johnson]

Some more of my wily "logic tricks". Let's look at Jamie v. 2002 Tiger from similar angles:

 

 

 

Pretty similar, except I'd say Jamie has more right side lateral bend, so his hips and shoulders are more open than Tiger's. He's probably gonna generate 140mph of CHS v. Tiger's 125.

 

What about the difference in how closed Tiger's shoulders still are and Sadlowski is falling back wide open?

 

 

Huh? Did you miss this?:

 

"Pretty similar, except I'd say Jamie has more right side lateral bend, so his hips and shoulders are more open than Tiger's."

[ej002]

Yeah -
I have to Read from my phone. The sequence is all differnt - what do you see that's even the same?

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1412282469' post='10225751']
[b]It not even close,[/b] you keep posting and your hole your digging will leave you in China. If you aim right, maybe you will end up in Manila and you can get a lesson from eightiron... lol.
[/quote]

I think it's pretty close, although it's obvious how Jamie generates so much more clubhead speed. Also, I don't like the flippy look Tiger's release started to take on after weakening his grip, at Butch's suggestion. Messing with the 1997 swing may have been stupidest decision in golf instruction history (neck and neck with signing up with Hank Haney). I bought the 1997 Masters dvd recently and watched the tourney for the first time (didn't watch it in 1997 for some reason). Absolutely breathtaking performance.

[pinhigh27]

oh wow their left foot lifts, just like every other player in the world that rips it. what a surprise

[Hoganstriker]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cbd3hqj6vEo

The legs and hips are so important to use to protect the spine.

[pinhigh27]

I don't get how if the spine engine is such a big concept for propelling people why almost all athletic events involve hip flexion into rapid extension. Or why we don't see athletes with excessively developed spinal musculature. You can barely even tell if they have traps or lats, they're tiny. Compare this to the most explosive athletes of the major sports: Running backs where their hamstrings and glutes are massive. NFL scouts literally write down the size of each prospects @ss because of the importance of this, not joking.

It's really easy to answer questions like this when you look at people that are actually athletic and how they are developed. Not really surprising.

can't wait until this post is turned into a " the lower body is reactionary" thought, when that's not what I'm saying at all. the fact is that the spinal muscles aren't capable of similar levels of force to the hip flexors or extensors that aren't of the spine.

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1412283314' post='10225849']
Yeah -
I have to Read from my phone. The sequence is all differnt - [b]what do you see that's even the same?[/b]
[/quote]

A bunch of stuff: the first move up and off the ball to P2, with the turn delayed until past P3; turn from P3 to P4 (although Jamie obviously keeps going back a lot further, but the body positions are very similar when the shaft is parallel); left hip stays "up" throughout the backswing.

The right heel lifts immediately during the move to P5, helping to create LPT and right side lateral bend; both get into a good "squat at P5, with the hips square and good left leg ER (Tiger has a tendency to fire the right leg/hip into IR a bit early, though).

The belt buckle stays angled down from P5 to P6, indicating APT and lumbar lordosis, so the the spine engine stays engaged. Both use right side lateral bend to rotate the pelvis.

Second fire happens from P5 to P7, with extension of both hips and knees, and contraction of both hip adductors, pulling the thighs together.

The left hip joint stays well inside the left heel from P4 to P7, with the left foot firmly planted and the left leg angled away from the target, pushing the left hip away from the target as it extends, assisting body rotation that's more around the spine than around the left leg (revolving door rotation instead of a door swinging on wall hinges).

Both hips start moving to IR by P6; left leg fully extends by P7.

The belt buckle begins to rise from P6 to P7, creating PPT and a flattened lumbar spine that disengages the coupled motion of the spine right after impact, slowing the hips.

The left leg unweights right after impact, letting the left foot float rotate and pull back under the body, creating an illusion of more weight transfer than really exists.

Both have a beautiful balanced finish.

Those are the highlights for now, but I reserve the right to make additions!

[russc1597187869]

Those comparos to Tiger aren't anywhere as close as you make it out to be.

 

 

Oh, yeah. I see what you mean...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some similariies ,many more radical differences

1st sequence

Radical differences in setup

Jamie has a very strong right hand ,

Jamie has a much wider stance relative to his shoulders

Jamie 's overall body tilt is much greater than Tiger's with much greater shoulder tilt

Jamie hands are much farther behind the ball than Tiger's

 

2nd sequence

Tiger has rotated his hips more

Jamie left arm is already even with his right arm

 

3rd sequence

Jamies right arm is already below is left by a discernible amount

Tige had s rotated both his hips and shoulders more

 

4th sequence

Jamie' shoulder turn is now about equal to or greater than Tiger's

He has rotated his hips much farther than Tiger.He has lifted his left heel off of the ground which allows for a greater hip turn

 

5th sequence

Jamie ' right elbow is well below his left while Tiger's is only slightly below the left

Jamie hips look to be a little close ,while tigers are slightly open

Jamie is in the "squat position" with a great deal of distance between his knees while tiger's is now where near this "squat position"

 

6th sequence

Jamie body is on more tilt than Tiger's

Tiger entire left arm is about in line with his right thigh

 

7th sequence

Jamie's upper left arm is well off of his body

Jamie is on more tilt than Tiger

 

Follow thru.Jamie is well on the outside of his left foot at impact

Tiger's left shoulder is basically over a vertical straight left leg .Jamie's leg is tilted

 

Both are powerful players.Jamie's goal is to beat balls as far as is possible while Tiger goal is beat others at golf

 

BOTH SWINGS HAVE WORKED WELL FOR EACH RESPECTIVE PURPOSE'S,BUT THE SWINGS ARE VERY ,VERY DIFFERENT

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='russc' timestamp='1412286139' post='10226089']Some similariies ,many more radical differences
1st sequence
Radical differences in setup
Jamie has a very strong right hand ,
Jamie has a much wider stance relative to his shoulders
Jamie 's overall body tilt is much greater than Tiger's with much greater shoulder tilt
Jamie hands are much farther behind the ball than Tiger's

2nd sequence
Tiger has rotated his hips more
Jamie left arm is already even with his right arm

3rd sequence
Jamies right arm is already below is left by a discernible amount
Tige had s rotated both his hips and shoulders more

4th sequence
Jamie' shoulder turn is now about equal to or greater than Tiger's
He has rotated his hips much farther than Tiger.He has lifted his left heel off of the ground which allows for a greater hip turn

5th sequence
Jamie ' right elbow is well below his left while Tiger's is only slightly below the left
Jamie hips look to be a little close ,while tigers are slightly open
Jamie is in the "squat position" with a great deal of distance between his knees while tiger's is now where near this "squat position"

6th sequence
Jamie body is on more tilt than Tiger's
Tiger entire left arm is about in line with his right thigh

7th sequence
Jamie's upper left arm is well off of his body
Jamie is on more tilt than Tiger

Follow thru.Jamie is well on the outside of his left foot at impact
Tiger's left shoulder is basically over a vertical straight left leg .Jamie's leg is tilted

[b]Both are powerful players.Jamie's goal is to beat balls as far as is possible while Tiger goal is beat others at golf

BOTH SWINGS HAVE WORKED WELL FOR EACH RESPECTIVE PURPOSE'S,BUT THE SWINGS ARE VERY ,VERY DIFFERENT[/b]
[/quote]

That's the biggest problem here Russ. People can't understand that at some point, the pieces to add speed are counterproductive in terms of consistent striking and curvature. In their mind, there are only beneficial moves for all purposes in the golf swing, no matter the usage of that swing.

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1412285946' post='10226077']
[b]I don't get how if the spine engine is such a big concept for propelling people [/b][/quote]

I'm not sure I'd call it a "big concept" as much as an underappreciated or even unrecognized concept.

[quote][b]why almost all athletic events involve hip flexion into rapid extension.[/b] [/quote]

Because those are the biggest muscles and biggest power source. Getting them out of the torso, so they aren't competing for space with the internal organs, created a huge mechanical advantage. Eventually, they got strong enough so man could stand and move around upright.

[quote][b]Or why we don't see athletes with excessively developed spinal musculature.[/b] You can barely even tell if they have traps or lats, they're tiny. Compare this to the most explosive athletes of the major sports: Running backs where their hamstrings and glutes are massive. NFL scouts literally write down the size of each prospects @ss because of the importance of this, not joking.[/quote]

I really disagree there. Sprinters and basketball players have ripped upper bodies, as do just about every athlete I've seen involved in a running sport.

[Spooky67]

I don't have a dog in the fight, but analyzing kinematics and applying those measurements or positions to others is flawed. We are all structured differently. We have varying amounts of control over our neuromuscular system and we all are "wired" slightly differently. Look at Jim Furyk's swing...seems to work for him. Sure there are basics position wise that are universal, but different bodies, controlled slightly differently by the neuromuscular system may need to move differently to deliver the center of the club head to the ball.