Kelvin Miyahira: pro or con

[RBImGuy]

He study tour pros that has compensations in their swings already and one reason they need to do a drive hold off release pattern.
its beyond me why anyone want such in their mechanics.

[northgolf]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1412404029' post='10233431']
[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412403491' post='10233411']
[quote name='AnotherTodJohnson' timestamp='1412399033' post='10233261']
Eightiron asked: "[i]How on earth can you tell if there is no roll between p7 and p7.2 and what's exactly holding . How is hogan a cp arm release action ? Where did you get that definition from?[/i]"

[b]I can tell that there is no roll by examining slow motion videos of a golfer's hand release action through the immediate impact zone (P7 to P7.2) - see my post showing capture images from a Phantom video camera.[/b]

[/quote]

Yes, there is clearly 4 degrees of roll, plus, you say, "easily" another 4 degrees, in a very short period. Your analysis shows that you can't tell at all that there is "no roll".
[/quote]

I just measured Hogan . I have a 10000 frames per second sequence that nobody else has seen , and there is 3.14159 degrees of roll between p7 and p7.2
[/quote]

There you go 8, throw pi in their face.

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='russc' timestamp='1412430478' post='10234203']
[b]It certainly sounds like Kelvin teaches a very strong grip. [/b][/quote]


No, he doesn't really. He prefers a strong grip but doesn't "teach" a grip as strong as Jamie, Lucas and I have, and what Lucas teaches. You can see that in the case studies on Kel's Youtube channel. He isn't opposed to a very strong one, but doesn't think everyone can handle it: some have trouble around the greens.

[quote][b]What effect does such a grip have on supination in the lower downswing and during the rest of the swing[/b][/quote]

Obviously the face will look more shut, but the biggest difference is at the release. You still need to square the club face at impact, even with a grip as strong as Jamie's, but the amount of roll is reduced. It works best when the player can keep the left shoulder in internal rotation through impact, with the elbow facing the target, and the elbow at least slightly bent. Doing that there is no need for unusual forward shaft lean. Jamie and Lucas can hit it straight up into the air the they want to.

[vinax]

[quote name='RBImGuy' timestamp='1412438043' post='10234775']
He study tour pros that has compensations in their swings already and one reason they need to do a drive hold off release pattern.
its beyond me why anyone want such in their mechanics.
[/quote]

Some people naturally drive-hold too. I'm not going to say it is better than any other way, it just works well for me.

I would say drive-hold (in a full swing) is not something you consciously do.. It is a result of your swing mechanics, grip and sequencing.

You can drive-hold a weak grip with sufficient effort (link below) but its all about reducing the effort right??

Andrew Loupe, super weak hogan-esk grip. WOW JUST WOW.
[media=]http://youtu.be/dMlML0541TE[/media]

[Tod Johnson]

He study tour pros that has compensations in their swings already and one reason they need to do a drive hold off release pattern.

its beyond me why anyone want such in their mechanics.

 

Interesting take. From a statistical standpoint, the drive/hold players have the best combination of distance and accuracy, implying the fewest swing compensations. Read Mark Broadie's and Rich Hunt's research and see what players they rank as the best drivers: Bubba and Rory in 2014, for example. They aren't rollers like Mickelson and Luke Donald, that's for sure.

 

By the way, drive/hold just means a lower rate of rotation, not zero like Dr. Mann says he sees with his 5D/10,000hz eyes. Here is the AMM TPI data for two drive/holders (Woodland and Oberholser) and two rollers, Elk and Ernie:

 

[Tod Johnson]

Back to the ultra strong grip. Here is Jamie Sadlowski's AMM TPI wrist angles graph. Despite a super strong grip, by setting the left humerus in extreme internal rotation and bending the left arm to help keep it there, Jamie needs lead forearm supination to get the club face square at impact. The upward sloping blue line means the left forearm is rotating counter-clockwise.

 

[Grayback1973]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1411905084' post='10198373']
Funny thing about Jeff Mann, the guy couldn't even do the most basic things correctly like trace the clubhead path in V1. He would claim idiotic things like that his left arm bent severely in the backswing due to lack of scapula flexibility. When I pointed out that it was due to over flexion of his right arm, he argued endlessly about it. He used to trash TGM then became a convert. Of course during all of his changes of philosophy he was never wrong about anything. Lol

It's obvious that Kelvin is using Sadlowski as his #1 swing model, since Lucas' swing looks like a copy as well as other students. I have no issue with that, just don't couch it in some discredited "spine engine" theory mumbo jumbo to try and make it sound scientifically credible.

It seems like golf is one of the few sports out there that attracts these kind of "gurus." Hard to think of another technique intensive athletic activity where "instructors" can't, or have never demonstrated high level proficiency. Just here on WRX we've had Mann, Kelvin, the "Maestro" and several other kooky theories posited. I guess golfers are suckers for the "one magic move" that's going to get them to the Champions tour. Lol
[/quote]HF,why can't you receive private messages? I wanted to ask you something.

[JPGolf FL]

Back to the ultra strong grip. Here is Jamie Sadlowski's AMM TPI wrist angles graph. Despite a super strong grip, by setting the left humerus in extreme internal rotation and bending the left arm to help keep it there, Jamie needs lead forearm supination to get the club face square at impact. The upward sloping blue line means the left forearm is rotating counter-clockwise.

 

Not sure you fully understand what's happening there. 95% of that rotation is happening after impact.

 

All of that rotation is an effect and after impact, not intentional to square the face.

[Tod Johnson]

Back to the ultra strong grip. Here is Jamie Sadlowski's AMM TPI wrist angles graph. Despite a super strong grip, by setting the left humerus in extreme internal rotation and bending the left arm to help keep it there, Jamie needs lead forearm supination to get the club face square at impact. The upward sloping blue line means the left forearm is rotating counter-clockwise.

 

Not sure you fully understand what's happening there. 95% of that rotation is happening after impact.

 

All of that rotation is an effect and after impact, not intentional to square the face.

 

 

Au contraire. I fully understand what is happening, you don't seem to. Just look at the graph. There is about 45 degrees of supination pre-impact. So, if there were no supination pre-impact by Jamie, the club face would be 45 degrees open. Heap big slice, pale face, if not just some kind of pathetic wipe that shoots off dead right, almost like a shank. Also, 45 degrees of pre-impact supination out of 155 degrees total means about 70% occurred post impact, not 95%. Next time, use a calculator.

 

Of course, I use a grip as strong or stronger than Jamie, so I have first hand experience of what can and can't happen with such a grip. Do you?

 

Also, who said anything about what was or wasn't "intentional" on Jamie's part? My guess is that there isn't a single thing about Jamie's swing that is "intentional"; I assume he just does it with no knowledge of the details. It would surprise the hell out of me if he had the slightest idea what his forearms, or any other body parts, were actually doing at any point in the swing, other than address.

[JPGolf FL]

Back to the ultra strong grip. Here is Jamie Sadlowski's AMM TPI wrist angles graph. Despite a super strong grip, by setting the left humerus in extreme internal rotation and bending the left arm to help keep it there, Jamie needs lead forearm supination to get the club face square at impact. The upward sloping blue line means the left forearm is rotating counter-clockwise.

 

Not sure you fully understand what's happening there. 95% of that rotation is happening after impact.

 

All of that rotation is an effect and after impact, not intentional to square the face.

 

 

Au contraire. I fully understand what is happening, you don't seem to. Just look at the graph. There is about 45 degrees of supination pre-impact. So, if there were no supination pre-impact by Jamie, the club face would be 45 degrees open. Heap big slice, pale face, if not just some kind of pathetic wipe that shoots off dead right, almost like a shank. Also, 45 degrees of pre-impact supination out of 155 degrees total means about 70% occurred post impact, not 95%. Next time, use a calculator.

 

Of course, I use a grip as strong or stronger than Jamie, so I have first hand experience of what can and can't happen with such a grip. Do you?

 

Also, who said anything about what was or wasn't "intentional" on Jamie's part? My guess is that there isn't a single thing about Jamie's swing that is "intentional"; I assume he just does it with no knowledge of the details. It would surprise the hell out of me if he had the slightest idea what his forearms, or any other body parts, were actually doing at any point in the swing, other than address.

 

Despite a super strong grip, by setting the left humerus in extreme internal rotation and bending the left arm to help keep it there, Jamie needs lead forearm supination to get the club face square at impact.

 

Sure sounds to me like you were implying the supination was intentional. ^ everyone's arms rotate, obviously, but saying someone needs to supinate implies an intentional action.

 

My point was that a strong or rotated grip has the supination built into it. There is no active roll. In that graph his arm is much less supinated at impact than it was at address. IOW he doesn't "need" supination.... it is built in. His bent left arm actually makes his arm rotate LESS. Hogan "needed" supination. His glove logo went from nearly facing the sky at p6 to facing the target at impact. Jamie's goes from facing just behind the camera at p6 to facing the camera at impact. No offense but you sound as if you are repeating things without fully understanding them. However, the smug tone of your post makes me chuckle.

[JPGolf FL]

Looks like Jamie doesn't use that strong of a grip anymore anyway. I'm quite sure the clear pic is much newer. Looking at that graph and the first pic I posted did not seem quite right. I'm guessing that graph is with the less strong grip.
[attachment=2444963:image.jpg]
[attachment=2444965:image.jpg]

[ej002]

Back to the ultra strong grip. Here is Jamie Sadlowski's AMM TPI wrist angles graph. Despite a super strong grip, by setting the left humerus in extreme internal rotation and bending the left arm to help keep it there, Jamie needs lead forearm supination to get the club face square at impact. The upward sloping blue line means the left forearm is rotating counter-clockwise.

 

Not sure you fully understand what's happening there. 95% of that rotation is happening after impact.

 

All of that rotation is an effect and after impact, not intentional to square the face.

 

 

Au contraire. I fully understand what is happening, you don't seem to. Just look at the graph. There is about 45 degrees of supination pre-impact. So, if there were no supination pre-impact by Jamie, the club face would be 45 degrees open. Heap big slice, pale face, if not just some kind of pathetic wipe that shoots off dead right, almost like a shank. Also, 45 degrees of pre-impact supination out of 155 degrees total means about 70% occurred post impact, not 95%. Next time, use a calculator.

 

Of course, I use a grip as strong or stronger than Jamie, so I have first hand experience of what can and can't happen with such a grip. Do you?

 

Also, who said anything about what was or wasn't "intentional" on Jamie's part? My guess is that there isn't a single thing about Jamie's swing that is "intentional"; I assume he just does it with no knowledge of the details. It would surprise the hell out of me if he had the slightest idea what his forearms, or any other body parts, were actually doing at any point in the swing, other than address.

 

You piqued my interest - when I first read some drive hold stuff I called it a hold off block release - now you are talking supination.

 

Can you give me a layman rundown of what your def of drive hold is?

[dairic]

Back to the ultra strong grip. Here is Jamie Sadlowski's AMM TPI wrist angles graph. Despite a super strong grip, by setting the left humerus in extreme internal rotation and bending the left arm to help keep it there, Jamie needs lead forearm supination to get the club face square at impact. The upward sloping blue line means the left forearm is rotating counter-clockwise.

 

Not sure you fully understand what's happening there. 95% of that rotation is happening after impact.

 

All of that rotation is an effect and after impact, not intentional to square the face.

 

 

Au contraire. I fully understand what is happening, you don't seem to. Just look at the graph. There is about 45 degrees of supination pre-impact. So, if there were no supination pre-impact by Jamie, the club face would be 45 degrees open. Heap big slice, pale face, if not just some kind of pathetic wipe that shoots off dead right, almost like a shank. Also, 45 degrees of pre-impact supination out of 155 degrees total means about 70% occurred post impact, not 95%. Next time, use a calculator.

 

Of course, I use a grip as strong or stronger than Jamie, so I have first hand experience of what can and can't happen with such a grip. Do you?

 

Also, who said anything about what was or wasn't "intentional" on Jamie's part? My guess is that there isn't a single thing about Jamie's swing that is "intentional"; I assume he just does it with no knowledge of the details. It would surprise the hell out of me if he had the slightest idea what his forearms, or any other body parts, were actually doing at any point in the swing, other than address.

 

Despite a super strong grip, by setting the left humerus in extreme internal rotation and bending the left arm to help keep it there, Jamie needs lead forearm supination to get the club face square at impact.

 

Sure sounds to me like you were implying the supination was intentional. ^ everyone's arms rotate, obviously, but saying someone needs to supinate implies an intentional action.

 

My point was that a strong or rotated grip has the supination built into it. There is no active roll. In that graph his arm is much less supinated at impact than it was at address. IOW he doesn't "need" supination.... it is built in. His bent left arm actually makes his arm rotate LESS. Hogan "needed" supination. His glove logo went from nearly facing the sky at p6 to facing the target at impact. Jamie's goes from facing just behind the camera at p6 to facing the camera at impact. No offense but you sound as if you are repeating things without fully understanding them. However, the smug tone of your post makes me chuckle.

 

It's the opposite for Hogan and Sadlowski actually. Hogan's glove logo would point more down towards the ground when compared to sadlowski at P6 because of their relative left hand grip strengths

 

 

 

 

[dap]

Drive hold is basically early supination to have the clubface closed just before impact and then somehow reversing that through impact so that the club face is open just after impact.

[dairic]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1412478602' post='10237581']
Drive hold is basically early supination to have the clubface closed just before impact and then somehow reversing that through impact so that the club face is open just after impact.
[/quote]

So in that case Sadlowski is not an example of drive holding? Based on the graph above he's not supinating early.

[dap]

Drive hold is the signature move of TJ and is considered by many to be a finishing move much like John Cena's Altitude Adjustment.

[dap]

Brian Manzella has a counter move for the Drive Hold called the Going Normal.

[JPGolf FL]

@dariac

My bad, I meant p5 to impact. That interval shows even more supination by hogan and less by Jamie.
[attachment=2444971:image.jpg]

[dap]

Slomo of the Drive Hold.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tjbfNABZNwM

[Tod Johnson]

@dariac

 

My bad, I meant p5 to impact. That interval shows even more supination by hogan and less by Jamie.

 

 

Exactly as you would expect, given Hogan's weaker grip.

 

You left this out, though, which shows Hogan's early supination and PF, that a weaker grip requires; notice how much the face closes during that one frame:

 

 

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1412479283' post='10237617']
[b]Brian Manzella has a counter move for the Drive Hold called the Going Normal.[/b]
[/quote]

Actually, Manzella's "going normal" trip was recently blown up by none other than Dr. Kwon over in the Golf Biomechanists group on Facebook. Kwon said all release styles "go normal", it can't be stopped. As I've said all along, all Bman's "go normal" routine does is encourage a flip. His 15 minutes of fame are over.

[Tod Johnson]

Drive hold is basically early supination to have the clubface closed just before impact and then somehow reversing that through impact so that the club face is open just after impact.

 

So in that case Sadlowski is not an example of drive holding? Based on the graph above he's not supinating early.

 

Don't need to supinate early with a super strong grip. Hogan does, see below:

 

[dap]

His website seems like it's dead in the water for sure.

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1412480881' post='10237693']
[b]His website seems like it's dead in the water for sure.[/b]
[/quote]

And he is killing the Golf Biomechanists page on FB:

[url="http://jeffygolf.com/showthread.php?1289-The-Finzella-Ebola-strain-strikes-Nick-Chertock-s-Facebook-group"]http://jeffygolf.com...-Facebook-group[/url]

[JPGolf FL]

@dariac

 

My bad, I meant p5 to impact. That interval shows even more supination by hogan and less by Jamie.

 

 

Exactly as you would expect, given Hogan's weaker grip.

 

You left this out, though, which shows Hogan's early supination and PF, that a weaker grip requires; notice how much the face closes during that one frame:

 

 

Not sure I get your point. I didn't "leave that out"..... It's totally irrelevant so why put it in???? You said strong grips need to supinate. I said it's built in and automatic and used hogan as an example of "needing" supination. The GIF actually illustrates that well.

[dap]

TJ, is there a super slomo of the drive hold with driver off a tee and perhaps a top view to confirm the ball was struck at the COG?

There is a chance with irons that the toe end of the sole impacts the ground first and could possibly twist the face open.

[Tod Johnson]

Despite a super strong grip, by setting the left humerus in extreme internal rotation and bending the left arm to help keep it there, Jamie needs lead forearm supination to get the club face square at impact.

 

Sure sounds to me like you were implying the supination was intentional. ^ everyone's arms rotate, obviously, but saying someone needs to supinate implies an intentional action.

 

Consult a dictionary next time:

 

 

 

 

 

 

I need to breath, but I don't need to do it intentionally. If I had to do it intentionally, I'd suffocate while sleeping.

 

 

My point was that a strong or rotated grip has the supination built into it. There is no active roll.

 

Nonsense, any "roll" is active. Again, consult a dictionary:

 

 

 

There is, of course, less supination required with a stronger grip, that is self-evident. If you want to call it "built-in" supination, fine by me. But it does not eliminate the requirement by Jamie to rotate 45 degrees counter-clockwise in the second half of the downswing.

 

 

 

In that graph his arm is much less supinated at impact than it was at address. IOW he doesn't "need" supination.... it is built in. His bent left arm actually makes his arm rotate LESS.

 

It makes his humerus rotate less. Doesn't influence the forearm.

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1412481507' post='10237729']
TJ, is there a super slomo of the drive hold with driver off a tee and perhaps a top view to confirm the ball was struck at the COG?

There is a chance with irons that the toe end of the sole impacts the ground first and could possibly twist the face open.
[/quote]

Closed-to-open is a feel. Everybody's club face rotates counter-clockwise through impact unless it is a toe hit or some heinous swing by a hacker.

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1412477806' post='10237555']
Looks like Jamie doesn't use that strong of a grip anymore anyway. I'm quite sure the clear pic is much newer. Looking at that graph and the first pic I posted did not seem quite right. [b]I'm guessing that graph is with the less strong grip.[/b]
[attachment=2444963:image.jpg]
[attachment=2444965:image.jpg]
[/quote]

I'm guessing you're wrong. I think the graph is four or five years old.

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1412476792' post='10237491']

[b]Hogan "needed" supination.[/b] His glove logo went from nearly facing the sky at p6 to facing the target at impact. Jamie's goes from facing just behind the camera at p6 to facing the camera at impact.[/quote]


More precisely, Hogan needed more supination than Jamie. Both need supination, as Jamie's graph clearly shows, 45 degrees to be precise.


[quote][b]No offense but you sound as if you are repeating things without fully understanding them.[/b][/quote]

No offense, but you sound like an excellent example of "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".


[quote][b]However, the smug tone of your post makes me chuckle.[/b][/quote]


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