Kelvin Miyahira: pro or con

[JPGolf FL]

Despite a super strong grip, by setting the left humerus in extreme internal rotation and bending the left arm to help keep it there, Jamie needs lead forearm supination to get the club face square at impact.

 

Sure sounds to me like you were implying the supination was intentional. ^ everyone's arms rotate, obviously, but saying someone needs to supinate implies an intentional action.

 

Consult a dictionary next time:

 

 

 

 

 

 

I need to breath, but I don't need to do it intentionally. If I had to o it intentionally, I'd suffocate while sleeping.

 

 

My point was that a strong or rotated grip has the supination built into it. There is no active roll.

 

Nonsense, any "roll" is active. Again, consult a dictionary:

 

 

 

There is, of course, less supination required with a stronger grip, that is self-evident. If you want to call it "built-in" supination, fine by me. But it does not eliminate the requirement to rotate 45 degrees counter-clockwise in the second half of the downswing.

 

 

 

In that graph his arm is much less supinated at impact than it was at address. IOW he doesn't "need" supination.... it is built in. His bent left arm actually makes his arm rotate LESS.

 

It makes his humerus rotate less. Doesn't influence the forearm.

First of all when you start posting the meanings everyday of words from the dictionary it's a sure sign you are losing an argument. Second, why tell someone they need to supinate if it's automatic??? If someone was telling you how to drive a silly little red sports car that had an automatic transmission, should that person tell you that you need to shift from first to second gear??? Telling someone they need to do something in their swing implies a deliberate action.

 

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412482736' post='10237811']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1412476792' post='10237491']

[b]Hogan "needed" supination.[/b] His glove logo went from nearly facing the sky at p6 to facing the target at impact. Jamie's goes from facing just behind the camera at p6 to facing the camera at impact.[/quote]


More precisely, Hogan needed more supination than Jamie. Both need supination, as Jamie's graph clearly shows, 45 degrees to be precise.


[quote][b]No offense but you sound as if you are repeating things without fully understanding them.[/b][/quote]

No offense, but you sound like an excellent example of "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".


[quote][b]However, the smug tone of your post makes me chuckle.[/b][/quote]


My purpose in life is to spread joy...
[/quote]
Bye bye jeffy.

[dap]

[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412482736' post='10237811']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1412476792' post='10237491']

[b]Hogan "needed" supination.[/b] His glove logo went from nearly facing the sky at p6 to facing the target at impact. Jamie's goes from facing just behind the camera at p6 to facing the camera at impact.[/quote]


More precisely, Hogan needed more supination than Jamie. Both need supination, as Jamie's graph clearly shows, 45 degrees to be precise.


[quote][b]No offense but you sound as if you are repeating things without fully understanding them.[/b][/quote]

No offense, but you sound like an excellent example of "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".


[quote][b]However, the smug tone of your post makes me chuckle.[/b][/quote]


My purpose in life is to spread joy...
[/quote]

There is a guy from Finland that would disagree with the supination thing. He believes that there is no supination as in rotation of the forearm relative to the elbow. Rotation of the forearm is only relative to the target line due only to pivot rotation and that the left forearm is actually pronating relative to the elbow.

[eightiron]

[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412480967' post='10237699']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1412480881' post='10237693']
[b]His website seems like it's dead in the water for sure.[/b]
[/quote]

And he is killing the Golf Biomechanists page on FB:

[url="http://jeffygolf.com/showthread.php?1289-The-Finzella-Ebola-strain-strikes-Nick-Chertock-s-Facebook-group"]http://jeffygolf.com...-Facebook-group[/url]
[/quote]

Can you link the page or do you have to be a member of the group to read it?

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1412478150' post='10237565']

You piqued my interest - when I first read some drive hold stuff I called it a hold off block release - now you are talking supination.

[b]Can you give me a layman rundown of what your def of drive hold is?[/b]
[/quote]


The basic idea is you want to move your arms and body in a way that minimizes forearm rotation and flexion/extension of the wrists during the impact interval.

Some folks tried to teach that style of release by simply focusing on the arms and wrists, and have students endlessly hit punch shots with exaggerated bowed left wrists. That led to a bunch of problems, though, because a drive/hold release really requires a complete package, it can't be something dumped on the arms and wrists alone.

As that table I posted above shows, a high speed drive/holder like Woodland can have a much lower rate of closure than lower club head speed rollers. The statistics bear out that players like Woodland have a superior combination of distance and accuracy than players like Elk or Ernie.

[dap]

[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412482213' post='10237779']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1412481507' post='10237729']
TJ, is there a super slomo of the drive hold with driver off a tee and perhaps a top view to confirm the ball was struck at the COG?

There is a chance with irons that the toe end of the sole impacts the ground first and could possibly twist the face open.
[/quote]

Closed-to-open is a feel. Everybody's club face rotates counter-clockwise through impact unless it is a toe hit or some heinous swing by a hacker.
[/quote]

I thought the micro moves were real and not feel.

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1412483194' post='10237833']
[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412480967' post='10237699']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1412480881' post='10237693']
[b]His website seems like it's dead in the water for sure.[/b]
[/quote]

And he is killing the Golf Biomechanists page on FB:

[url="http://jeffygolf.com/showthread.php?1289-The-Finzella-Ebola-strain-strikes-Nick-Chertock-s-Facebook-group"]http://jeffygolf.com...-Facebook-group[/url]
[/quote]

Can you link the page or do you have to be a member of the group to read it?
[/quote]


On FB? That's a closed group.

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1412483428' post='10237847']
[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412482213' post='10237779']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1412481507' post='10237729']
TJ, is there a super slomo of the drive hold with driver off a tee and perhaps a top view to confirm the ball was struck at the COG?

There is a chance with irons that the toe end of the sole impacts the ground first and could possibly twist the face open.
[/quote]

Closed-to-open is a feel. Everybody's club face rotates counter-clockwise through impact unless it is a toe hit or some heinous swing by a hacker.
[/quote]

[b]I thought the micro moves were real and not feel.[/b]
[/quote]


They most certainly are.

[dap]

[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412483404' post='10237845']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1412478150' post='10237565']

You piqued my interest - when I first read some drive hold stuff I called it a hold off block release - now you are talking supination.

[b]Can you give me a layman rundown of what your def of drive hold is?[/b]
[/quote]


The basic idea is you want to move your arms and body in a way that minimizes forearm rotation and flexion/extension of the wrists during the impact interval.

Some folks tried to teach that style of release by simply focusing on the arms and wrists, and have students endlessly hit punch shots with exaggerated bowed left wrists. That led to a bunch of problems, though, because a drive/hold release really requires a complete package, it can't be something dumped on the arms and wrists alone.

As that table I posted above shows, a high speed drive/holder like Woodland can have a much lower rate of closure than lower club head speed rollers. The statistics bear out that players like Woodland have a superior combination of distance and accuracy than players like Elk or Ernie.
[/quote]

You would need far greater sample numbers to come to that empirical conclusion.

[eightiron]

[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412483442' post='10237849']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1412483194' post='10237833']
[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412480967' post='10237699']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1412480881' post='10237693']
[b]His website seems like it's dead in the water for sure.[/b]
[/quote]

And he is killing the Golf Biomechanists page on FB:

[url="http://jeffygolf.com/showthread.php?1289-The-Finzella-Ebola-strain-strikes-Nick-Chertock-s-Facebook-group"]http://jeffygolf.com...-Facebook-group[/url]
[/quote]

Can you link the page or do you have to be a member of the group to read it?
[/quote]


On FB? That's a closed group.
[/quote]

So have you got any statements of the Manzella we can read that lead to the debacle

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1412483143' post='10237829']

There is a guy from Finland that would disagree with the supination thing. He believes that there is no supination as in rotation of the forearm relative to the elbow. Rotation of the forearm is only relative to the target line due only to pivot rotation and that the left forearm is actually pronating relative to the elbow.
[/quote]


Yep, know him well. He can think whatever he wants, but if I maintain left shoulder IR and don't supinate my left forearm at the bottom of the swing, ball goes straight right.

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1412483579' post='10237865']
[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412483404' post='10237845']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1412478150' post='10237565']
You piqued my interest - when I first read some drive hold stuff I called it a hold off block release - now you are talking supination.

[b]Can you give me a layman rundown of what your def of drive hold is?[/b]
[/quote]


The basic idea is you want to move your arms and body in a way that minimizes forearm rotation and flexion/extension of the wrists during the impact interval.

Some folks tried to teach that style of release by simply focusing on the arms and wrists, and have students endlessly hit punch shots with exaggerated bowed left wrists. That led to a bunch of problems, though, because a drive/hold release really requires a complete package, it can't be something dumped on the arms and wrists alone.

As that table I posted above shows, a high speed drive/holder like Woodland can have a much lower rate of closure than lower club head speed rollers. The statistics bear out that players like Woodland have a superior combination of distance and accuracy than players like Elk or Ernie.
[/quote]

[b]You would need far greater sample numbers to come to that empirical conclusion.[/b]
[/quote]


I have a sample size of about 180 players a year. Each year the same guys lead Richie's Driving Effectiveness and Mark Broadie's Strokes Gained Driving (lthough Broadie may overrate distance). The leaders are all typically drive/holders. Rollers, like Ernie, Elk, Luke Donald and Phil Mickelson, rank well down year after year.

[Tod Johnson]

deleted duplicate post

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1412483593' post='10237867']
[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412483442' post='10237849']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1412483194' post='10237833']
[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412480967' post='10237699']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1412480881' post='10237693']
[b]His website seems like it's dead in the water for sure.[/b]
[/quote]

And he is killing the Golf Biomechanists page on FB:

[url="http://jeffygolf.com/showthread.php?1289-The-Finzella-Ebola-strain-strikes-Nick-Chertock-s-Facebook-group"]http://jeffygolf.com...-Facebook-group[/url]
[/quote]

Can you link the page or do you have to be a member of the group to read it?
[/quote]


On FB? That's a closed group.
[/quote]

So have you got any statements of the Manzella we can read that lead to the debacle
[/quote]

Not that are handy, sorry.

[dap]

[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412483633' post='10237871']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1412483143' post='10237829']

There is a guy from Finland that would disagree with the supination thing. He believes that there is no supination as in rotation of the forearm relative to the elbow. Rotation of the forearm is only relative to the target line due only to pivot rotation and that the left forearm is actually pronating relative to the elbow.
[/quote]


Yep, know him well. He can think whatever he wants, but if I maintain left shoulder IR and don't supinate my left forearm at the bottom of the swing, ball goes straight right.
[/quote]

I just thought it might be similar to what you teach with this hold off feeling move. He thinks the arms are rolling open while the pivot is closing to get the clubface square. You might be aware of his signature move called The Opposite Circle.

[northgolf]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1412478602' post='10237581']
Drive hold is basically early supination to have the clubface closed just before impact and then somehow reversing that through impact so that the club face is open just after impact.
[/quote]

If that was the case, then DH would just be the dump of "bump, dump, and turn"...

That would be way too simple and would not require all this swing analytic navel gazing, so obviously I don't understand (hmmm, just what don't I understand - are your sure we agree on that (heh, heh)).

[dap]

I have just been made aware that Manzella no longer does the Going Normal as it has been countered. He has come back with the Spider-Man left hand which apparently is an improvement on the Going Normal.

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1412482885' post='10237819']
[b]First of all when you start posting the meanings everyday of words from the dictionary it's a sure sign you are losing an argument.[/b][/quote]

No. It's a sure sign your argument relies on misinterpretation, not on the facts. The facts are all on my side.


[quote][b]Second, why tell someone they need to supinate if it's automatic???[/b] [/quote]

It isn't automatic. Very few things humans do are "automatic", and "supination" is not one of them. The movement has to be learned first before it can become automatic.


[quote]If someone was telling you how to drive a silly little red sports car that had an automatic transmission, should that person tell you that you need to shift from first to second gear??? [b]Telling someone they need to do something in their swing implies a deliberate action.[/b]
[/quote]

Well, that isn't the plain meaning of the word "need". Try listening to what people actually say.

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412484725' post='10237921']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1412482885' post='10237819']
[b]First of all when you start posting the meanings everyday of words from the dictionary it's a sure sign you are losing an argument.[/b][/quote]

No. It's a sure sign your argument relies on misinterpretation, not on the facts. The facts are all on my side.


[quote][b]Second, why tell someone they need to supinate if it's automatic???[/b] [/quote]

It isn't automatic. Very few things humans do are "automatic", and "supination" is not one of them.


[quote]If someone was telling you how to drive a silly little red sports car that had an automatic transmission, should that person tell you that you need to shift from first to second gear??? [b]Telling someone they need to do something in their swing implies a deliberate action.[/b]
[/quote]

Well, that isn't the plain meaning of the word "need". Try listening to what people actually say.
[/quote]
Either you are confused or else you just like bickering in the internet. Either way I'm good.

[Tod Johnson]

If someone was telling you how to drive a silly little red sports car that had an automatic transmission, should that person tell you that you need to shift from first to second gear???

 

 

You talking about this one? It has a 5-speed...

 

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1412484923' post='10237931']
[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412484725' post='10237921']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1412482885' post='10237819']
[b]First of all when you start posting the meanings everyday of words from the dictionary it's a sure sign you are losing an argument.[/b][/quote]

No. It's a sure sign your argument relies on misinterpretation, not on the facts. The facts are all on my side.


[quote][b]Second, why tell someone they need to supinate if it's automatic???[/b] [/quote]

It isn't automatic. Very few things humans do are "automatic", and "supination" is not one of them.


[quote]If someone was telling you how to drive a silly little red sports car that had an automatic transmission, should that person tell you that you need to shift from first to second gear??? [b]Telling someone they need to do something in their swing implies a deliberate action.[/b]
[/quote]

Well, that isn't the plain meaning of the word "need". Try listening to what people actually say.
[/quote]
[b]Either you are confused or else you just like bickering in the internet. Either way I'm good.[/b]
[/quote]


I'm not confused at all. Ideally, there are no deliberate actions in the golf swing. That's the goal of Lucas's training: get to the point where you grip it and rip it. You are confused if you think a fully developed golf swing "needs" any deliberate action.

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1412484086' post='10237895']
[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412483633' post='10237871']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1412483143' post='10237829']
There is a guy from Finland that would disagree with the supination thing. He believes that there is no supination as in rotation of the forearm relative to the elbow. Rotation of the forearm is only relative to the target line due only to pivot rotation and that the left forearm is actually pronating relative to the elbow.
[/quote]


Yep, know him well. He can think whatever he wants, but if I maintain left shoulder IR and don't supinate my left forearm at the bottom of the swing, ball goes straight right.
[/quote]

I just thought it might be similar to what you teach with this hold off feeling move. He thinks the arms are rolling open while the pivot is closing to get the clubface square. You might be aware of his signature move called The Opposite Circle.
[/quote]


Sure, we spent a lot of time discussing his theories. We ended up agreeing to disagree on a few points.

[Tod Johnson]

@dariac

 

My bad, I meant p5 to impact. That interval shows even more supination by hogan and less by Jamie.

 

 

Exactly as you would expect, given Hogan's weaker grip.

 

You left this out, though, which shows Hogan's early supination and PF, that a weaker grip requires; notice how much the face closes during that one frame:

 

 

Not sure I get your point. I didn't "leave that out"..... It's totally irrelevant so why put it in????

 

Not irrelevant at all. It illustrtates a very important point I bet most are completely unaware of.

 

 

You said strong grips need to supinate. I said it's built in and automatic and used hogan as an example of "needing" supination. The GIF actually illustrates that well.

 

 

The GIF is a good illustration of early supination, supination that takes place way before impact. What early supination does for Hogan is to get the club face closed to the point that it is in a comparable position to Jamie's club face. From there, they both need more or less the same amount of supination. Two ways to skin the cat.

 

[dap]

It appears to me all existing theories has loose ends.

What we need is a "Standard Model" or "Theory of everything"

We need to find the Higgs Boson of golf. Unfortunately Hogan took it to the grave.

[eightiron]

Tod

Do you have any numbers on degrees of IR that the left shoulder is at impact for sadlowski . How many degrees of IR is lost from top of swing to impact ? For say Hogan v Sadlowski

[ALIF]

@dariac

 

My bad, I meant p5 to impact. That interval shows even more supination by hogan and less by Jamie.

 

 

Exactly as you would expect, given Hogan's weaker grip.

 

You left this out, though, which shows Hogan's early supination and PF, that a weaker grip requires; notice how much the face closes during that one frame:

 

 

Not sure I get your point. I didn't "leave that out"..... It's totally irrelevant so why put it in????

 

Not irrelevant at all. It illustrtates a very important point I bet most are completely unaware of.

 

 

You said strong grips need to supinate. I said it's built in and automatic and used hogan as an example of "needing" supination. The GIF actually illustrates that well.

 

 

The GIF is a good illustration of early supination, supination that takes place way before impact. What early supination does for Hogan is to get the club face closed to the point that it is in a comparable position to Jamie's club face. From there, they both need more or less the same amount of supination. Two ways to skin the cat.

 

 

So Tod, in your opinion which way is better to skin the cat? Weaker grip with supination that is learned or ingrained from practice or stronger grip with automatic supination?

[pick it up]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1412483143' post='10237829']
[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412482736' post='10237811']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1412476792' post='10237491']
[b]Hogan "needed" supination.[/b] His glove logo went from nearly facing the sky at p6 to facing the target at impact. Jamie's goes from facing just behind the camera at p6 to facing the camera at impact.[/quote]


More precisely, Hogan needed more supination than Jamie. Both need supination, as Jamie's graph clearly shows, 45 degrees to be precise.


[quote][b]No offense but you sound as if you are repeating things without fully understanding them.[/b][/quote]

No offense, but you sound like an excellent example of "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".


[quote][b]However, the smug tone of your post makes me chuckle.[/b][/quote]


My purpose in life is to spread joy...
[/quote]

There is a guy from Finland that would disagree with the supination thing. He believes that there is no supination as in rotation of the forearm relative to the elbow. Rotation of the forearm is only relative to the target line due only to pivot rotation and that the left forearm is actually pronating relative to the elbow.
[/quote]



Only in the green room of doom is that possible!

[pick it up]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1412487772' post='10238057']
It appears to me all existing theories has loose ends.

What we need is a "Standard Model" or "Theory of everything"

We need to find the Higgs Boson of golf. Unfortunately Hogan took it to the grave.
[/quote]


No Hogan didn't take it to the grave... he told Tapio in a dream... too bad the Fin misinterpreted what Hogan told him...you know English isn't Tapio's first language and Hogan didn't speak Finnish... I guess they traveled in opposite circles in that dream.

[ALIF]

Where is KG for this thread? It's not the same without him.

[dap]

[quote name='pick it up' timestamp='1412491303' post='10238155']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1412487772' post='10238057']
It appears to me all existing theories has loose ends.

What we need is a "Standard Model" or "Theory of everything"

We need to find the Higgs Boson of golf. Unfortunately Hogan took it to the grave.
[/quote]


No Hogan didn't take it to the grave... he told Tapio in a dream... too bad the Fin misinterpreted what Hogan told him...you know English isn't Tapio's first language and Hogan didn't speak Finnish... I guess they traveled in opposite circles in that dream.
[/quote]

I was on the receiving end of the Opposite Circle move by Tee and let me tell you It took all my energy to counter it. I'm still feeling the effects today.