Kelvin Miyahira: pro or con

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412286728' post='10226135']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1412285946' post='10226077']
[b]I don't get how if the spine engine is such a big concept for propelling people [/b][/quote]

I'm not sure I'd call it a "big concept" as much as an underappreciated or even unrecognized concept.

[quote][b]why almost all athletic events involve hip flexion into rapid extension.[/b] [/quote]

Because those are the biggest muscles and biggest power source. Getting them out of the torso, so they aren't competing for space with the internal organs, created a huge mechanical advantage. Eventually, they got strong enough so man could stand and move around upright.

[quote][b]Or why we don't see athletes with excessively developed spinal musculature.[/b] You can barely even tell if they have traps or lats, they're tiny. Compare this to the most explosive athletes of the major sports: Running backs where their hamstrings and glutes are massive. NFL scouts literally write down the size of each prospects @ss because of the importance of this, not joking.[/quote]

I really disagree there. Sprinters and basketball players have ripped upper bodies, as do just about every athlete I've seen involved in a running sport.
[/quote]

upper bodies =!= spinal musculature.

[Tod Johnson]

Those comparos to Tiger aren't anywhere as close as you make it out to be.

 

 

Oh, yeah. I see what you mean...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some similariies ,many more radical differences

1st sequence

Radical differences in setup

Jamie has a very strong right hand ,

Jamie has a much wider stance relative to his shoulders

Jamie 's overall body tilt is much greater than Tiger's with much greater shoulder tilt

Jamie hands are much farther behind the ball than Tiger's

 

2nd sequence

Tiger has rotated his hips more

Jamie left arm is already even with his right arm

 

3rd sequence

Jamies right arm is already below is left by a discernible amount

Tige had s rotated both his hips and shoulders more

 

4th sequence

Jamie' shoulder turn is now about equal to or greater than Tiger's

He has rotated his hips much farther than Tiger.He has lifted his left heel off of the ground which allows for a greater hip turn

 

5th sequence

Jamie ' right elbow is well below his left while Tiger's is only slightly below the left

Jamie hips look to be a little close ,while tigers are slightly open

Jamie is in the "squat position" with a great deal of distance between his knees while tiger's is now where near this "squat position"

 

6th sequence

Jamie body is on more tilt than Tiger's

Tiger entire left arm is about in line with his right thigh

 

7th sequence

Jamie's upper left arm is well off of his body

Jamie is on more tilt than Tiger

 

Follow thru.Jamie is well on the outside of his left foot at impact

Tiger's left shoulder is basically over a vertical straight left leg .Jamie's leg is tilted

 

Both are powerful players.Jamie's goal is to beat balls as far as is possible while Tiger goal is beat others at golf

 

BOTH SWINGS HAVE WORKED WELL FOR EACH RESPECTIVE PURPOSE'S,BUT THE SWINGS ARE VERY ,VERY DIFFERENT

 

 

That's an interesting take. Overall, I'd say the most significant differences are the grip and the release. The setup reflects that Tiger plays golf and likes to hit down more than Jamie, who mostly plays "long driver". Most of your "radical differences" just reflect different degrees of doing the same underlying movements.

[Tod Johnson]

Some similariies ,many more radical differences

1st sequence

Radical differences in setup

Jamie has a very strong right hand ,

Jamie has a much wider stance relative to his shoulders

Jamie 's overall body tilt is much greater than Tiger's with much greater shoulder tilt

Jamie hands are much farther behind the ball than Tiger's

 

2nd sequence

Tiger has rotated his hips more

Jamie left arm is already even with his right arm

 

3rd sequence

Jamies right arm is already below is left by a discernible amount

Tige had s rotated both his hips and shoulders more

 

4th sequence

Jamie' shoulder turn is now about equal to or greater than Tiger's

He has rotated his hips much farther than Tiger.He has lifted his left heel off of the ground which allows for a greater hip turn

 

5th sequence

Jamie ' right elbow is well below his left while Tiger's is only slightly below the left

Jamie hips look to be a little close ,while tigers are slightly open

Jamie is in the "squat position" with a great deal of distance between his knees while tiger's is now where near this "squat position"

 

6th sequence

Jamie body is on more tilt than Tiger's

Tiger entire left arm is about in line with his right thigh

 

7th sequence

Jamie's upper left arm is well off of his body

Jamie is on more tilt than Tiger

 

Follow thru.Jamie is well on the outside of his left foot at impact

Tiger's left shoulder is basically over a vertical straight left leg .Jamie's leg is tilted

 

Both are powerful players.Jamie's goal is to beat balls as far as is possible while Tiger goal is beat others at golf

 

BOTH SWINGS HAVE WORKED WELL FOR EACH RESPECTIVE PURPOSE'S,BUT THE SWINGS ARE VERY ,VERY DIFFERENT

 

That's the biggest problem here Russ. People can't understand that at some point, the pieces to add speed are counterproductive in terms of consistent striking and curvature. In their mind, there are only beneficial moves for all purposes in the golf swing, no matter the usage of that swing.

 

 

In Russ's list, I don't really see many, if any, "pieces to add speed" in Jamie's swing that are "counterproductive in terms of consistent striking and curvature". What are they?

 

Lee Trevino had a very strong grip; pre-accident Hogan had a big turn and lifted the left heel. Snead and Nicklaus both had big turns and lifted the left heel. Neither Tiger or Jamie go to the outside of the left foot until after impact, and the left foot positions here look almost identical to me:

 

 

 

Jamie has more extreme angles in the elbows and wrists during the downswing than Tiger, but the underlying movements are more or less the same, Jamie is just doing more to create and retain lag than Tiger. I suppose that could lead to more inconsistency. But, that said, as I mentioned before, Tiger's weaker grip requires more squaring late in the downswing, and I don't see his release as having any particular consistency advantage.

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1412287150' post='10226181']
[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412286728' post='10226135']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1412285946' post='10226077']
[b]I don't get how if the spine engine is such a big concept for propelling people [/b][/quote]

I'm not sure I'd call it a "big concept" as much as an underappreciated or even unrecognized concept.

[quote][b]why almost all athletic events involve hip flexion into rapid extension.[/b] [/quote]

Because those are the biggest muscles and biggest power source. Getting them out of the torso, so they aren't competing for space with the internal organs, created a huge mechanical advantage. Eventually, they got strong enough so man could stand and move around upright.

[quote][b]Or why we don't see athletes with excessively developed spinal musculature.[/b] You can barely even tell if they have traps or lats, they're tiny. Compare this to the most explosive athletes of the major sports: Running backs where their hamstrings and glutes are massive. NFL scouts literally write down the size of each prospects @ss because of the importance of this, not joking.[/quote]

I really disagree there. Sprinters and basketball players have ripped upper bodies, as do just about every athlete I've seen involved in a running sport.
[/quote]

upper bodies =!= spinal musculature.
[/quote]

Well, I have read Gracovetsky's book, twice, reviewed all the lectures and videos on his DVD, and spoken to him twice. I think his arguments are pretty compelling and think a lot of what he says makes sense. That said, most of his spine engine theory isn't all that relevant to how the coupled motions of the lumbar spine are generally agreed to work and the role they can have in the golf swing. Debating it further probably isn't very productive on a golf instruction forum.

[ej002]

Some similariies ,many more radical differences

1st sequence

Radical differences in setup

Jamie has a very strong right hand ,

Jamie has a much wider stance relative to his shoulders

Jamie 's overall body tilt is much greater than Tiger's with much greater shoulder tilt

Jamie hands are much farther behind the ball than Tiger's

 

2nd sequence

Tiger has rotated his hips more

Jamie left arm is already even with his right arm

 

3rd sequence

Jamies right arm is already below is left by a discernible amount

Tige had s rotated both his hips and shoulders more

 

4th sequence

Jamie' shoulder turn is now about equal to or greater than Tiger's

He has rotated his hips much farther than Tiger.He has lifted his left heel off of the ground which allows for a greater hip turn

 

5th sequence

Jamie ' right elbow is well below his left while Tiger's is only slightly below the left

Jamie hips look to be a little close ,while tigers are slightly open

Jamie is in the "squat position" with a great deal of distance between his knees while tiger's is now where near this "squat position"

 

6th sequence

Jamie body is on more tilt than Tiger's

Tiger entire left arm is about in line with his right thigh

 

7th sequence

Jamie's upper left arm is well off of his body

Jamie is on more tilt than Tiger

 

Follow thru.Jamie is well on the outside of his left foot at impact

Tiger's left shoulder is basically over a vertical straight left leg .Jamie's leg is tilted

 

Both are powerful players.Jamie's goal is to beat balls as far as is possible while Tiger goal is beat others at golf

 

BOTH SWINGS HAVE WORKED WELL FOR EACH RESPECTIVE PURPOSE'S,BUT THE SWINGS ARE VERY ,VERY DIFFERENT

 

That's the biggest problem here Russ. People can't understand that at some point, the pieces to add speed are counterproductive in terms of consistent striking and curvature. In their mind, there are only beneficial moves for all purposes in the golf swing, no matter the usage of that swing.

 

 

In Russ's list, I don't really see many, if any, "pieces to add speed" in Jamie's swing that are "counterproductive in terms of consistent striking and curvature". What are they?

 

Lee Trevino had a very strong grip; pre-accident Hogan had a big turn and lifted the left heel. Snead and Nicklaus both had big turns and lifted the left heel. Neither Tiger or Jamie go to the outside of the left foot until after impact, and the left foot positions here look almost identical to me:

 

 

 

Jamie has more extreme angles in the elbows and wrists during the downswing than Tiger, but the underlying movements are more or less the same, Jamie is just doing more to create and retain lag than Tiger. I suppose that could lead to more inconsistency. But, that said, as I mentioned before, Tiger's weaker grip requires more squaring late in the downswing, and I personally don't like how he goes into left shoulder ER so quickly. I don't see his release as having any particular consistency advantage.

 

I am always fuzzy on the tiger years but that looks like Butch swing when he dominated with his driver - long and straight. Majors falling out his arse. What else do you want?

 

Their approaches into the ball are very different. like I said JS is spinning hard to shallow and he backs out. Bent left arm trying to manipulate the face to hit the grid (bet that kid can crush a hand when shaking hands) Tiger - full release for consistency. You can never in a million years compare the two. I don't see it at all.

 

[ej002]

I also want to mention in kelvins article that he uses woods and it looks like his hip moves left before the right said bend. That is apparent in your sequences also. JS already way compressed - tiger wasn't. Think that was at p5/6 ish. Where I saw the biggest difference - if the Right side lateral bend is supposed to send the left hip open. I don't see it in that dTL Tiger sequence at all.

[Tod Johnson]

Some similariies ,many more radical differences

1st sequence

Radical differences in setup

Jamie has a very strong right hand ,

Jamie has a much wider stance relative to his shoulders

Jamie 's overall body tilt is much greater than Tiger's with much greater shoulder tilt

Jamie hands are much farther behind the ball than Tiger's

 

2nd sequence

Tiger has rotated his hips more

Jamie left arm is already even with his right arm

 

3rd sequence

Jamies right arm is already below is left by a discernible amount

Tige had s rotated both his hips and shoulders more

 

4th sequence

Jamie' shoulder turn is now about equal to or greater than Tiger's

He has rotated his hips much farther than Tiger.He has lifted his left heel off of the ground which allows for a greater hip turn

 

5th sequence

Jamie ' right elbow is well below his left while Tiger's is only slightly below the left

Jamie hips look to be a little close ,while tigers are slightly open

Jamie is in the "squat position" with a great deal of distance between his knees while tiger's is now where near this "squat position"

 

6th sequence

Jamie body is on more tilt than Tiger's

Tiger entire left arm is about in line with his right thigh

 

7th sequence

Jamie's upper left arm is well off of his body

Jamie is on more tilt than Tiger

 

Follow thru.Jamie is well on the outside of his left foot at impact

Tiger's left shoulder is basically over a vertical straight left leg .Jamie's leg is tilted

 

Both are powerful players.Jamie's goal is to beat balls as far as is possible while Tiger goal is beat others at golf

 

BOTH SWINGS HAVE WORKED WELL FOR EACH RESPECTIVE PURPOSE'S,BUT THE SWINGS ARE VERY ,VERY DIFFERENT

 

That's the biggest problem here Russ. People can't understand that at some point, the pieces to add speed are counterproductive in terms of consistent striking and curvature. In their mind, there are only beneficial moves for all purposes in the golf swing, no matter the usage of that swing.

 

 

In Russ's list, I don't really see many, if any, "pieces to add speed" in Jamie's swing that are "counterproductive in terms of consistent striking and curvature". What are they?

 

Lee Trevino had a very strong grip; pre-accident Hogan had a big turn and lifted the left heel. Snead and Nicklaus both had big turns and lifted the left heel. Neither Tiger or Jamie go to the outside of the left foot until after impact, and the left foot positions here look almost identical to me:

 

 

 

Jamie has more extreme angles in the elbows and wrists during the downswing than Tiger, but the underlying movements are more or less the same, Jamie is just doing more to create and retain lag than Tiger. I suppose that could lead to more inconsistency. But, that said, as I mentioned before, Tiger's weaker grip requires more squaring late in the downswing, and I personally don't like how he goes into left shoulder ER so quickly. I don't see his release as having any particular consistency advantage.

 

I am always fuzzy on the tiger years but that looks like Butch swing when he dominated with his driver - long and straight. Majors falling out his arse. What else do you want?

 

Their approaches into the ball are very different. like I said JS is spinning hard to shallow and he backs out. Bent left arm trying to manipulate the face to hit the grid (bet that kid can crush a hand when shaking hands) Tiger - full release for consistency. You can never in a million years compare the two. I don't see it at all.

 

It's a swing from 2002. His driving stats peaked in 1999/2000, but I don't see how anyone could drive it better than he did at the 1997 Masters, except young Nicklaus, I guess.

 

BTW, you make a boatload of assertions and state them as facts, really without any support at all. None of Jamie's videos show any kind of "spinning", he is no more trying to manipulate the face than Trevino, he is not "backing out" in any away, his pivot is not "collapsing", he is no more "under plane" than young Jack or 2000 Tiger, and there is no reason at all to think a weaker grip is going to generate any more consistency with a driver than a stronger one, unless you were Ben Hogan, and then you had to make a bunch of extra moves in the downswing to make it work. Par for the course, I guess, on internet golf forums, but a bit tiresome after awhile.

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1412292634' post='10226579']
I also want to mention in kelvins article that he uses woods and it looks like his hip moves left before the right said bend. [/quote]

Yep, he's always had a lateral move.

[quote][b]That is apparent in your sequences also[/b]. [/quote]

Yep, that's an iron swing: gotta get left some.

[quote]JS already way compressed - tiger wasn't. Think that was at p5/6 ish. [b]Where I saw the biggest difference - if the Right side lateral bend is supposed to send the left hip open. I don't see it in that dTL Tiger sequence at all.[/b]
[/quote]

Compare his swings from the Butch era to the Foley era and you can't miss it. Also, remember that Butch was teaching Tiger to quiet the hips, as an antidote to his tendency to fire into right hip IR too soon, instead of teaching him a better squat. Fixing a flaw with a flaw, a time honored tradition even at the highest level of golf instruction.

[ej002]

I think the general consensus of the golf community will say that Butch did a great job. He has done great with Scott and so far with Fowler.

My shift is over I will let another tod take over

[AnotherTodJohnson]

I just want to clarify what I mean by two terms that I used in a previous post - i) passive force and ii) coupled motion.

 

Consider mimicing a golfer's end-backswing (P4) position without holding a golf club. Then simply drive your right shoulder downplane by activating muscles in the right upper back/upper torso area while avoiding activating any muscles below the navel area - in other words, you specifically need to avoid activating the pelvic girdle muscles that normally/actively rotate the pelvis between P4 and P6+ in a standard pro golfer's downswing action.

 

Here is an image showing what I mean by downplane.

 

 

The image shows Sergio Garcia at the end-backswing position.

 

The red zone represents the downplane zone and if you drive your right shoulder downplane (in the manner I described) then it should move into that zone.

 

As you drive your right shoulder downplane (while specifically avoiding any right lateral bend or any change in your natural degree of lumbar lordosis), then that active motion should induce a counterclockwise rotation of the upper torso and also the thoracic spine. In other words, you are using the core muscles of your upper back/torso to actively rotate the thoracic spine counterclockwise.

 

Now, how much of that active force will be transmitted down the spine/paraspinal tissues in such a manner that it will secondarily induce the lumbar spine/pelvis to passively rotate counterclockwise? If you are young and flexible and capable of generating a large degree of torso-pelvic separation, then you will probably be able to drive your right shoulder downplane (thereby inducing a counterclockwise rotation of the thoracic spine) while noting that there is hardly any (or very little) secondary/passive counterclockwise rotation of the lumbar spine/pelvis. However, if you are elderly, and/or have an inflexible spine due to fibrosis (+/- calcification) of the intervertebral discs and paraspinal ligaments, then you may note that you unintentionally/uncontrollably generate a considerable amount of counterclockwise rotation of the lumbar spine/pelvis - and if this happens it is a secondary/passive biomechanical phenomenon and not due to active pelvic girdle muscle contraction. What I am describing in terms of the "force" causing the secondary counterclockwise rotation of the lumbar spine/pelvis is what I mean by a "passive force" that is transmitted down the spine/paraspinal tissues secondary to the active rotation of the upper torso/thoracic spine. The coupling phenomenon represents the biomechanical coupling of the counterlockwise rotation of the upper torso/thoracic spine to the counterclockwise rotation of the lumbar spine/pelvis. It has nothing to do with coupling of any side-bend of the spine to a counterclockwise rotation of the spine in the opposite direction - as described in Fryette's laws or Gravovetsky's spine engine.

 

I believe that this coupling phenomenon (which doesn't involve any right lateral bend or any lumbar lordosis or any interlocking interfacet joints) probably exists to a variable degree in most professional golfer's downswing action. Most pro golfers start the downswing with an active counterclockwise pelvic rotation move (Hogan's left hip clearing action move) that is due to the active contraction of the 6 pelvic lateral rotator muscles. Then, they actively start to rotate the upper torso/thoracic spine counterclockwise using the core muscles of the mid-upper torso while manifesting a variable degree of dynamic X-factor delay (torso-pelvic separation). Between P4 and P6, I believe that the major force causing counterclockwise rotation of the pelvis is due to active contraction of the lateral pelvic rotator muscles, but these muscles become fully contracted and therefore incapable of generating much active force after P6. That explains why peak pelvic rotation velocity usually happens in the mid-downswing or at the start of the late downswing (roughly between P5.5 and P6.5). The upper torso/shoulders usually reach their peak rotational velocity a litte later, which means that they are still actively rotating during the mid-late downswing, and the active core muscle-induced force (causing a counterclockwise rotationof the thoracic spine) can be passively transmitted down the spine/paraspinal tissues to induce the lumbar spine/pelvis to continue to rotate counterclockwise. Most importantly with respect to this coupling of the counterclockwise rotation of the upper torso to the continued counterclockwise rotation of the pelvis - is the fact that it doesn't require any right right lateral bend or lumbar lordosis or interlocking interfacet joints, and it is not biomechanically/mechanically dependent on their biomechanical presence.

 

There is another time period when this coupling phenomenon (secondary to the active counterclockwise rotation of the upper torso/thoracic spine that secondarily/passively induces a counterclockwise rotation of the pelvis) happens and that is between P8 and the finish of the swing.

 

Consider Rory McIlroy's swing action using a driver.

 

 

When looking at his driver swing at normal speed, you may not realize that he stalls his pelvis between P6 and P8. However, this pelvic stalling phenomenon becomes clearly evident if you watch a slow-motion video of his swing or if you study his swing action using a swing analyser program (where you can advance the video frame-by-frame).

 

Here are capture images from that swing video.

 

 

Image 1 is at P4 - note that Rory has rotated his pelvis about 45 degrees clockwise during his backswing action.

 

Image 2 is at P6 - note that his pelvis is beyond square, and slightly open, and I believe that the counterclockwise rotation of his pelvis that happens between P4 and P6 is due to an active muscle contraction of his pelvic girdle muscles. I suspect that there is very little contribution from the coupling phenomenonon passive force (that is due to an active counterclockwise rotation of the upper thoracic spine secondary to muscular activation of the core muscles of the mid-upper torso) and I certainly believe that there is no spine engine contribution (which I believe doesn't play any role in a pro golfer's downswing action).

 

Image 3 is at P7 (impact) and image 4 is at P8 (when the clubshaft is parallel to the ground). Note that his pelvis is open to roughly the same degree between P6 and P8, which means that his pelvic rotation has nearly stalled during the P6 => P8 time period.

 

Then, note how much his pelvis rotates counterclockwise between P8 (image 4) and the finish of his swing (image 5).

 

What "force" causes the fast counterclockwise rotation of his pelvis between P8 (image 4) and the finish of his swing action (image 5)? I personally believe that it cannot be due to any active contraction of his pelvic girdle muscles, and I believe that it is a secondary/passive phenomenon due to the superfast rotation of his upper torso (shoulders) between P8 and the finish of his swing. Rory's upper torso/shoulders are rotating counterclockwise superfast between P8 and the finish of his swing, and that causes his thoracic spine to also rotate counterclockwise superfast during this same time period. I believe that the coupling phenomenonon (previously described and which doesn't involve any right lateral bend or lumbar lordosis or any interlocking lumbar interfact joints) is the causative biomechanical/mechanical factor that induces his pelvis to also rotate counterclockwise during that same time period.

 

Jeff.

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1412295859' post='10226839']
I think the general consensus of the golf community will say that Butch did a great job. He has done great with Scott and so far with Fowler.

My shift is over I will let another tod take over
[/quote]

I give Butch full credit for Rickie. Adam Scott stopped working with him in 2009. He was well on his way to ruining Gary Woodland when someone put a stop to the nonsense after just a year. He gets credit for "making Greg Norman number 1", but I don't think Greg drove it as well with Harmon as he did before, and I hated the Harmon swing when I saw it in person. Hurt my back just watching it. Butch has a very mixed record in my opinion.

I know what the consensus is regarding Tiger, and I think it is flat out wrong. To me, Butch talked Tiger into making changes he didn't need to, and set him on the path that led him to where he[size=4] is today[/size]: winless in the majors for six years and thoroughly bewildered about his golf swing. From [i]How I Play Golf,[/i] talking about his decision to commence a major swing overhaul following his 12 shot win at the 1997 Masters:

[color=#333333][size=3][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]"[/background][/size][/color][b]I had struck the ball great that week,[/b][color=#333333][size=3][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] but by my standard I had gotten away with murder. [/background][/size][/color][b]My clubshaft was across the line at the top of the backswing and my clubface was closed. My swing plane was too upright.[/b][color=#333333][size=3][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] [/background][/size][/color][b]I liked my ball flight,[/b][color=#333333][size=3][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] but I was hitting the ball farther than I should have with my irons because I was delofting the clubface through impact. [/background][/size][/color][b]I didn't like the look of those things,[/b][color=#333333][size=3][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] and the more I thought about it, the more I realized I didn't like how my swing felt, either. [/background][/size][/color][b]From a ball-striking standpoint, I was playing better than I knew how.[/b]

[color=#333333][size=3][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]"Even before the tape ended, I committed myself to making some big changes in my swing. [/background][/size][/color][b]Butch had pointed out some of these flaws before, [/b][color=#333333][size=3][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]and we had been working on them slowly, but I decided right then and there to pick up the pace. I got on the phone and called Butch and let him know what I was thinking. [/background][/size][/color][b]He was all for the swing overhaul I had in mind[/b][color=#333333][size=3][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]."[/background][/size][/color]

[size=4][color=#333333][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]I watched the 1997 Masters DVD just the other day, and, during the course of the tournament, Tiger only talked about how well he was driving it and how well he was controlling his irons. It was a breathtaking display. To me, based on the above excerpt, Butch's fingerprints are all over convincing Tiger that his game needed an overhaul, when, in fact, what Tiger listed as "flaws", weren't really flaws at all.[/background][/color][/size]

[Tod Johnson]

I just want to clarify what I mean by two terms that I used in a previous post - i) passive force and ii) coupled motion.

 

Consider mimicing a golfer's end-backswing (P4) position without holding a golf club. Then simply drive your right shoulder downplane by activating muscles in the right upper back/upper torso area while avoiding activating any muscles below the navel area - in other words, you specifically need to avoid activating the pelvic girdle muscles that normally/actively rotate the pelvis between P4 and P6+ in a standard pro golfer's downswing action.

 

Here is an image showing what I mean by downplane.

 

 

The image shows Sergio Garcia at the end-backswing position.

 

The red zone represents the downplane zone and if you drive your right shoulder downplane (in the manner I described) then it should move into that zone.

 

As you drive your right shoulder downplane (while specifically avoiding any right lateral bend or any change in your natural degree of lumbar lordosis), then that active motion should induce a counterclockwise rotation of the upper torso and also the thoracic spine. In other words, you are using the core muscles of your upper back/torso to actively rotate the thoracic spine counterclockwise.

 

Now, how much of that active force will be transmitted down the spine/paraspinal tissues in such a manner that it will secondarily induce the lumbar spine/pelvis to passively rotate counterclockwise? If you are young and flexible and capable of generating a large degree of torso-pelvic separation, then you will probably be able to drive your right shoulder downplane (thereby inducing a counterclockwise rotation of the thoracic spine) while noting that there is hardly any (or very little) secondary/passive counterclockwise rotation of the lumbar spine/pelvis. However, if you are elderly, and/or have an inflexible spine due to fibrosis (+/- calcification) of the intervertebral discs and paraspinal ligaments, then you may note that you unintentionally/uncontrollably generate a considerable amount of counterclockwise rotation of the lumbar spine/pelvis - and if this happens it is a secondary/passive biomechanical phenomenon and not due to active pelvic girdle muscle contraction. What I am describing in terms of the "force" causing the secondary counterclockwise rotation of the lumbar spine/pelvis is what I mean by a "passive force" that is transmitted down the spine/paraspinal tissues secondary to the active rotation of the upper torso/thoracic spine. The coupling phenomenon represents the biomechanical coupling of the counterlockwise rotation of the upper torso/thoracic spine to the counterclockwise rotation of the lumbar spine/pelvis. It has nothing to do with coupling of any side-bend of the spine to a counterclockwise rotation of the spine in the opposite direction - as described in Fryette's laws or Gravovetsky's spine engine.

 

I believe that this coupling phenomenon (which doesn't involve any right lateral bend or any lumbar lordosis or any interlocking interfacet joints) probably exists to a variable degree in most professional golfer's downswing action. Most pro golfers start the downswing with an active counterclockwise pelvic rotation move (Hogan's left hip clearing action move) that is due to the active contraction of the 6 pelvic lateral rotator muscles. Then, they actively start to rotate the upper torso/thoracic spine counterclockwise using the core muscles of the mid-upper torso while manifesting a variable degree of dynamic X-factor delay (torso-pelvic separation). Between P4 and P6, I believe that the major force causing counterclockwise rotation of the pelvis is due to active contraction of the lateral pelvic rotator muscles, but these muscles become fully contracted and therefore incapable of generating much active force after P6. That explains why peak pelvic rotation velocity usually happens in the mid-downswing or at the start of the late downswing (roughly between P5.5 and P6.5). The upper torso/shoulders usually reach their peak rotational velocity a litte later, which means that they are still actively rotating during the mid-late downswing, and the active core muscle-induced force (causing a counterclockwise rotationof the thoracic spine) can be passively transmitted down the spine/paraspinal tissues to induce the lumbar spine/pelvis to continue to rotate counterclockwise. Most importantly with respect to this coupling of the counterclockwise rotation of the upper torso to the continued counterclockwise rotation of the pelvis - is the fact that it doesn't require any right right lateral bend or lumbar lordosis or interlocking interfacet joints, and it is not biomechanically/mechanically dependent on their biomechanical presence.

 

There is another time period when this coupling phenomenon (secondary to the active counterclockwise rotation of the upper torso/thoracic spine that secondarily/passively induces a counterclockwise rotation of the pelvis) happens and that is between P8 and the finish of the swing.

 

Consider Rory McIlroy's swing action using a driver.

 

 

When looking at his driver swing at normal speed, you may not realize that he stalls his pelvis between P6 and P8. However, this pelvic stalling phenomenon becomes clearly evident if you watch a slow-motion video of his swing or if you study his swing action using a swing analyser program (where you can advance the video frame-by-frame).

 

Here are capture images from that swing video.

 

 

Image 1 is at P4 - note that Rory has rotated his pelvis about 45 degrees clockwise during his backswing action.

 

Image 2 is at P6 - note that his pelvis is beyond square, and slightly open, and I believe that the counterclockwise rotation of his pelvis that happens between P4 and P6 is due to an active muscle contraction of his pelvic girdle muscles. I suspect that there is very little contribution from the coupling phenomenonon passive force (that is due to an active counterclockwise rotation of the upper thoracic spine secondary to muscular activation of the core muscles of the mid-upper torso) and I certainly believe that there is no spine engine contribution (which I believe doesn't play any role in a pro golfer's downswing action).

 

Image 3 is at P7 (impact) and image 4 is at P8 (when the clubshaft is parallel to the ground). Note that his pelvis is open to roughly the same degree between P6 and P8, which means that his pelvic rotation has nearly stalled during the P6 => P8 time period.

 

Then, note how much his pelvis rotates counterclockwise between P8 (image 4) and the finish of his swing (image 5).

 

What "force" causes the fast counterclockwise rotation of his pelvis between P8 (image 4) and the finish of his swing action (image 5)? I personally believe that it cannot be due to any active contraction of his pelvic girdle muscles, and I believe that it is a secondary/passive phenomenon due to the superfast rotation of his upper torso (shoulders) between P8 and the finish of his swing. Rory's upper torso/shoulders are rotating counterclockwise superfast between P8 and the finish of his swing, and that causes his thoracic spine to also rotate counterclockwise superfast during this same time period. I believe that the coupling phenomenonon (previously described and which doesn't involve any right lateral bend or lumbar lordosis or any interlocking lumbar interfact joints) is the causative biomechanical/mechanical factor that induces his pelvis to also rotate counterclockwise during that same time period.

 

Jeff.

 

 

He's loose. Weep for the children...

[dap]

So far in this bout,TJ has come out swinging and throwing as many punches as he can muster hoping that more blows can score more points and overwhelm the opposition into confusion.

ATJ has his gloves up absorbing the blows and perhaps playing rope a dope and not really on the offensive......yet.

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1412299074' post='10227153']
So far in this bout,TJ has come out swinging and throwing as many punches as he can muster hoping that more blows can score more points and overwhelm the opposition into confusion.

ATJ has his gloves up absorbing the blows and perhaps playing rope a dope and not really on the offensive......yet.
[/quote]


Doubt I'm gonna play much beyond this. Engaging with Dr. Mann is just about as productive as sticking red hot needles through your dick. He was banned (eventually) for starting threads like this one below, and I was banned for trying to stop him. I think I'll just let the GolfWRX community enjoy the return of this pariah unopposed.

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/119330-dana-dahlquists-driver-swing/page__hl__%20dana%20%20dahlquist%20%20driver"]http://www.golfwrx.c...hlquist driver[/url]

[russc1597187869]

Those comparos to Tiger aren't anywhere as close as you make it out to be.

 

 

Oh, yeah. I see what you mean...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some similariies ,many more radical differences

1st sequence

Radical differences in setup

Jamie has a very strong right hand ,

Jamie has a much wider stance relative to his shoulders

Jamie 's overall body tilt is much greater than Tiger's with much greater shoulder tilt

Jamie hands are much farther behind the ball than Tiger's

 

2nd sequence

Tiger has rotated his hips more

Jamie left arm is already even with his right arm

 

3rd sequence

Jamies right arm is already below is left by a discernible amount

Tige had s rotated both his hips and shoulders more

 

4th sequence

Jamie' shoulder turn is now about equal to or greater than Tiger's

He has rotated his hips much farther than Tiger.He has lifted his left heel off of the ground which allows for a greater hip turn

 

5th sequence

Jamie ' right elbow is well below his left while Tiger's is only slightly below the left

Jamie hips look to be a little close ,while tigers are slightly open

Jamie is in the "squat position" with a great deal of distance between his knees while tiger's is now where near this "squat position"

 

6th sequence

Jamie body is on more tilt than Tiger's

Tiger entire left arm is about in line with his right thigh

 

7th sequence

Jamie's upper left arm is well off of his body

Jamie is on more tilt than Tiger

 

Follow thru.Jamie is well on the outside of his left foot at impact

Tiger's left shoulder is basically over a vertical straight left leg .Jamie's leg is tilted

 

Both are powerful players.Jamie's goal is to beat balls as far as is possible while Tiger goal is beat others at golf

 

BOTH SWINGS HAVE WORKED WELL FOR EACH RESPECTIVE PURPOSE'S,BUT THE SWINGS ARE VERY ,VERY DIFFERENT

 

 

That's an interesting take. Overall, I'd say the most significant differences are the grip and the release. The setup reflects that Tiger plays golf and likes to hit down more than Jamie, who mostly plays "long driver". Most of your "radical differences" just reflect different degrees of doing the same underlying movements.

There is no doubt that grip and setup affects the way that a golfer swings. and I think in Jamie's swing hugely affects the way that he swings .

Jamies very strong right hand grip is a factor in his rolling his arm going back(right arm going below left in the backswing ) .The rule of thumb is that the stronger the rotation going down,the stronger that the grip should be(Mr Hogan is the obvious exception)

His stance is very wide even in comparison with Kelvin's other gold medal winners .Among other things this wide stance is a major factor in his large amount of tilt at setup ,his arm position at setup and his tilt at impact.A wider stance makes it difficult to rotate the right knee and(hip) inwards. going back.His very wide stance facilitates his huge "Snead squat"which is in another league even compared to most other gold medal winners.It makes it impossible to move enough laterally to avoid the "look" of spinning in the lower downswing.The problem IMOP in using Jamie as a model is that golfers who try to imitate him without proper instruction just do not have his abilties and often end up with an mish mash of a swing with the right knee moving outside the right heel,the head rotating way too far ,the left heel coming too far off of the ground.Much better would be to use another gold medal winner .like Gary Woodland as a model.

So the grip and the stance are not just to be looked at in the context of setting up ,they have to be examined in how they going to affect later parts of the swing

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412299473' post='10227189']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1412299074' post='10227153']
So far in this bout,TJ has come out swinging and throwing as many punches as he can muster hoping that more blows can score more points and overwhelm the opposition into confusion.

ATJ has his gloves up absorbing the blows and perhaps playing rope a dope and not really on the offensive......yet.
[/quote]


Doubt I'm gonna play much beyond this. Engaging with Dr. Mann is just about[b] as productive as sticking red hot needles through your dick[/b]. He was banned (eventually) for starting threads like this one below, and I was banned for trying to stop him. I think I'll just let the GolfWRX community enjoy the return of this pariah unopposed.

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/119330-dana-dahlquists-driver-swing/page__hl__%20dana%20%20dahlquist%20%20driver"]http://www.golfwrx.c...hlquist driver[/url]
[/quote]

well that's surely not a lot of fun

[Hoganstriker]

Not one explanation from the spine engine camp how gears make force. Gears transmit force and in reality are a drag on power. It ought to be called spine transmission not engine.
How do gears create power? I am sure once again I will be personally attacked for asking a simple question.
I also have a new reason to
CON
this guy and it's because the essence of golf is not the pursuit of distance. If you learned from anyone good you eventually got it and power is plenty no big deal. That's nothing to do with the essence. The essence is ballstriking control.
Power generation to adequate levels to play PGA tour golf is not the problem.
Maybe for the long drive tour okay find a micro move to get that last 3 yards peak even if it means most of the time it's off the map.
I have to give yet another
CON
for encouraging a max power intent which has high likelihood of leading to injuries to golfers. A simple conventional move has all the power you need if it's taught correctly. True golf is producing a shot on demand not deloft ing with a super strong grip and hitting iron shots with a hot hook.

[Hoganstriker]

Those comparos to Tiger aren't anywhere as close as you make it out to be.

 

 

Oh, yeah. I see what you mean...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some similariies ,many more radical differences

1st sequence

Radical differences in setup

Jamie has a very strong right hand ,

Jamie has a much wider stance relative to his shoulders

Jamie 's overall body tilt is much greater than Tiger's with much greater shoulder tilt

Jamie hands are much farther behind the ball than Tiger's

 

2nd sequence

Tiger has rotated his hips more

Jamie left arm is already even with his right arm

 

3rd sequence

Jamies right arm is already below is left by a discernible amount

Tige had s rotated both his hips and shoulders more

 

4th sequence

Jamie' shoulder turn is now about equal to or greater than Tiger's

He has rotated his hips much farther than Tiger.He has lifted his left heel off of the ground which allows for a greater hip turn

 

5th sequence

Jamie ' right elbow is well below his left while Tiger's is only slightly below the left

Jamie hips look to be a little close ,while tigers are slightly open

Jamie is in the "squat position" with a great deal of distance between his knees while tiger's is now where near this "squat position"

 

6th sequence

Jamie body is on more tilt than Tiger's

Tiger entire left arm is about in line with his right thigh

 

7th sequence

Jamie's upper left arm is well off of his body

Jamie is on more tilt than Tiger

 

Follow thru.Jamie is well on the outside of his left foot at impact

Tiger's left shoulder is basically over a vertical straight left leg .Jamie's leg is tilted

 

Both are powerful players.Jamie's goal is to beat balls as far as is possible while Tiger goal is beat others at golf

 

BOTH SWINGS HAVE WORKED WELL FOR EACH RESPECTIVE PURPOSE'S,BUT THE SWINGS ARE VERY ,VERY DIFFERENT

 

 

That's an interesting take. Overall, I'd say the most significant differences are the grip and the release. The setup reflects that Tiger plays golf and likes to hit down more than Jamie, who mostly plays "long driver". Most of your "radical differences" just reflect different degrees of doing the same underlying movements.

There is no doubt that grip and setup affects the way that a golfer swings. and I think in Jamie's swing hugely affects the way that he swings .

Jamies very strong right hand grip is a factor in his rolling his arm going back(right arm going below left in the backswing ) .The rule of thumb is that the stronger the rotation going down,the stronger that the grip should be(Mr Hogan is the obvious exception)

His stance is very wide even in comparison with Kelvin's other gold medal winners .Among other things this wide stance is a major factor in his large amount of tilt at setup ,his arm position at setup and his tilt at impact.A wider stance makes it difficult to rotate the right knee and(hip) inwards. going back.His very wide stance facilitates his huge "Snead squat"which is in another league even compared to most other gold medal winners.It makes it impossible to move enough laterally to avoid the "look" of spinning in the lower downswing.The problem IMOP in using Jamie as a model is that golfers who try to imitate him without proper instruction just do not have his abilties and often end up with an mish mash of a swing with the right knee moving outside the right heel,the head rotating way too far ,the left heel coming too far off of the ground.Much better would be to use another gold medal winner .like Gary Woodland as a model.

So the grip and the stance are not just to be looked at in the context of setting up ,they have to be examined in how they going to affect later parts of the swing

 

Great post Russ plus one.

 

[eightiron]

I'm having a hard time understanding how right side lateral bend plus whatever it was induces rotation . If anything adds to the rotation would it not more likely be the regaining of flexion into the squat position and the ground reaction forces this generates ?

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1412305988' post='10227771']
[b]Not one explanation from the spine engine camp how gears make force. [/b] Gears transmit force and in reality are a drag on power. It ought to be called spine transmission not engine.
How do gears create power? I am sure once again I will be personally attacked for asking a simple question.
I also have a new reason to[/quote]

I thought I already explained this. The "spine engine" includes all the related musculature, ligaments and fascia. Obviously, the musculature powers the spine engine. Why on earth would you think that something as monumentally idiotic as a "spine engine" without any muscles to power it would be submitted to a scientific journal, sent to reviewers by the editor, recommended for publication by the reviewers, published and taken seriously by the scientific community???

[quote]CON
this guy and it's because the essence of golf is not the pursuit of distance. If you learned from anyone good you eventually got it and power is plenty no big deal. That's nothing to do with the essence. [b]The essence is ballstriking control.[/b] [/quote]

Kelvin does not disagree. Why do you think he does? The quality of the release is what determines ballstriking control and is Kelvin's first focus. Why? Because a stable release allows a player to swing harder and keep the ball in play. Golf statisticians, like Mark Broadie and Rich Hunt, think that controlled distance is a huge advantage, and is the most important determinant of a golfer's ability.

[quote]Power generation to adequate levels to play PGA tour golf is not the problem.
Maybe for the long drive tour okay find a micro move to get that last 3 yards peak even if it means most of the time it's off the map.
I have to give yet another
CON
for encouraging a max power intent which has high likelihood of leading to injuries to golfers. A simple conventional move has all the power you need if it's taught correctly. [b] True golf is producing a shot on demand not deloft ing with a super strong grip and hitting iron shots with a hot hook.[/b]
[/quote]

What evidence do you have that this is anything close to what Kel and Lucas teach? It isn't. Lucas can ht it over a skyscraper, no problem. Pure unfounded speculation on your part.

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1412308144' post='10227975']
I'm having a hard time understanding how right side lateral bend plus whatever it was induces rotation . If anything adds to the rotation would it not more likely be the regaining of flexion into the squat position and the ground reaction forces this generates ?
[/quote]

There is more than a century of scientific literature on this. Look it up, and you'll be comforted by having done the research yourself.

[rbhan12]

To the people discussing Tiger and Jamie's swing,

Haven't you considered the fact that Jamie goes well well well past parallel in his backswing? He's much closer to perpendicular with a driver than he is to parallel.

[attachment=2442883:Screen Shot 2014-10-02 at 11.56.20 PM.png]

[eightiron]

[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412308459' post='10228003']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1412308144' post='10227975']
I'm having a hard time understanding how right side lateral bend plus whatever it was induces rotation . If anything adds to the rotation would it not more likely be the regaining of flexion into the squat position and the ground reaction forces this generates ?
[/quote]

There is more than a century of scientific literature on this. Look it up, and you'll be comforted by having done the research yourself.
[/quote]

Screw that , how about a simple demonstration proving it ! What is it again ? Right side lateral bend plus ? + rotation . So if it's true I should be able to stand in a neutral position and perform the equation to get rotation

[russc1597187869]

IMOP it would be more beneficial to discuss Lucas Walds changes,because his swing is accepted by Kelvins suporters as a very good one and bacuse Kelvin was a big factor in the transformation of his swing
Some things that i see in his swing
Grip
I can not see his grip very well

Stance
very wide
With the ball played forward this wide stance ,results in considerable shoulder tilt
looks athletic

Backswing
minimal amount of lateral movement ,just rotation
Lifts left heel a considerable amount to enable more hip turn
Right leg on an angle towards target and pretty straight
His left arm is high at the top,indicative of his wide takeaway.

Transition and downswing
beautiful gravity setting the clubhead in transition
Does not have the" really squatty" look of Sam Snead or Jamie ,but Lucas keep his knees at a wide distance for a very long time going down
Has a good deal of tilt away from the target at impact and has the same spinny look of Jamie ,even though he is not spinning with his left leg on a considerable angle away from the target
Keeps the clubface square to the arc for a time past impact

A very fine swing ,but in comparison to Gary Woodland and Robert Garrigus , his right hip stay externally rotated for too long going down.
His old swing on the left looks to be that of a completely different player

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVOxYwrr3p0




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGBI3Yisz0s

[eightiron]

Didn't do squat for me , lordosis plus lateral bend and I didn't sniff any rotation . Am I doing it wrong ? Maybe I bypassed the theory of evolution

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1412309796' post='10228083']
[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412308459' post='10228003']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1412308144' post='10227975']
I'm having a hard time understanding how right side lateral bend plus whatever it was induces rotation . If anything adds to the rotation would it not more likely be the regaining of flexion into the squat position and the ground reaction forces this generates ?
[/quote]

There is more than a century of scientific literature on this. Look it up, and you'll be comforted by having done the research yourself.
[/quote]

Screw that , how about a simple demonstration proving it ! What is it again ? Right side lateral bend plus ? + rotation . So if it's true I should be able to stand in a neutral position and perform the equation to get rotation
[/quote]


Screw yourself. If you want more information from me, you'll have to pay me.

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1412310568' post='10228107']
Didn't do squat for me , lordosis plus lateral bend and I didn't sniff any rotation . Am I doing it wrong ? Maybe I bypassed the theory of evolution
[/quote]

I think you should seek help from Jeff Mann.

[eightiron]

[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412311323' post='10228139']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1412309796' post='10228083']
[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412308459' post='10228003']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1412308144' post='10227975']
I'm having a hard time understanding how right side lateral bend plus whatever it was induces rotation . If anything adds to the rotation would it not more likely be the regaining of flexion into the squat position and the ground reaction forces this generates ?
[/quote]

There is more than a century of scientific literature on this. Look it up, and you'll be comforted by having done the research yourself.
[/quote]

Screw that , how about a simple demonstration proving it ! What is it again ? Right side lateral bend plus ? + rotation . So if it's true I should be able to stand in a neutral position and perform the equation to get rotation
[/quote]


Screw yourself. If you want more information from me, you'll have to pay me.
[/quote]

Lmao , do I get change for 50 cents ?

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='russc' timestamp='1412310261' post='10228095']
IMOP it would be more beneficial to discuss Lucas Walds changes,because his swing is accepted by Kelvins suporters as a very good one and bacuse Kelvin was a big factor in the transformation of his swing
Some things that i see in his swing
Grip
[b]I can not see his grip very well[/b][/quote]

Grip is very strong, like Jamie's.

[quote]Stance
very wide
With the ball played forward this wide stance ,results in considerable shoulder tilt
looks athletic

Backswing
[b]minimal amount of lateral movement ,just rotation[/b][/quote]

You missed the "up move" during the first part of the takeawy, where he moves up and away from the target. Part of Jamie's swing and part of Lucas's swing and all of his students.

[quote]Lifts left heel a considerable amount to enable more hip turn
Right leg on an angle towards target and pretty straight
His left arm is high at the top,indicative of his wide takeaway.

Transition and downswing
beautiful gravity setting the clubhead in transition
Does not have the" really squatty" look of Sam Snead or Jamie ,but Lucas keep his knees at a wide distance for a very long time going down
Has a good deal of tilt away from the target at impact and has the same spinny look of Jamie ,even though he is not spinning with his left leg on a considerable angle away from the target
Keeps the clubface square to the arc for a time past impact

[b]A very fine swing ,but in comparison to Gary Woodland and Robert Garrigus , his right hip stay externally rotated for too long going down.[/b][/quote]

How do you know Woodland and Garrigus don't go into IR too early?


[quote]His old swing on the left looks to be that of a completely different player

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVOxYwrr3p0[/media]


[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGBI3Yisz0s[/media]
[/quote]

His is the only transformation of its kind I have ever seen documented. I challenge anyone to produce a similar transformation of an adult with a fully developed golf swing.

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1412311601' post='10228151']
[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412311323' post='10228139']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1412309796' post='10228083']
[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412308459' post='10228003']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1412308144' post='10227975']
I'm having a hard time understanding how right side lateral bend plus whatever it was induces rotation . If anything adds to the rotation would it not more likely be the regaining of flexion into the squat position and the ground reaction forces this generates ?
[/quote]

There is more than a century of scientific literature on this. Look it up, and you'll be comforted by having done the research yourself.
[/quote]

Screw that , how about a simple demonstration proving it ! What is it again ? Right side lateral bend plus ? + rotation . So if it's true I should be able to stand in a neutral position and perform the equation to get rotation
[/quote]


Screw yourself. If you want more information from me, you'll have to pay me.
[/quote]

Lmao , do I get change for 50 cents ?
[/quote]


Nope. LMAO