Kelvin Miyahira: pro or con

[Hoganstriker]

[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412566002' post='10241657']
[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1412564603' post='10241527']
[b]With the real strong grip through impact it looks draggy.[/b] [b]Just watching the butt of the club and it sort of has to be because if the club fully releases the face has a good chance of being slightly shut. [/b]

[b]I just wouldn't say the club in that orientation is experiencing the phenomenon great golfers do called releasing the club.

Like I said drive hold matches the method it's just not a method that involves freely releasing the golf club through impact. It's a manipulation.[/b]
[/quote]


Here is Lucas's student, 13 year old Sofia Amoroso, 4' 11" and 100 pounds, with a super strong grip. She is driving it 50 to 80 yards past her competitors. Please explain why you think she isn't "fully releasing the golf club through impact", and how "fully releasing" would look different. Also, please identify the "manipulation" you see in her release.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNLMK8SPtRo[/media]

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_Rfc62g4AU[/media]
[/quote]

That's a nice move, but I am not going to comment on a 13 year old girls swing other than it's nice. Some might tend to give young girls more of a ten finger neutral until they get stronger another way is a strong grip. In this case it's not misapplied at all and I like her move.
Good for her.

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1412566070' post='10241663'][b]Usually guys who grip it strong tend to drag it or push it rather than swing it.[/b] [/quote]

If that's true, it would probably be because they don't control left shoulder IR/ER very well. You get that under control, you can do anything with a strong grip.

[quote]It all matches that way, the fundies and the tendency and that's golf. TGM is pretty right on the money on some things and the strong single action grip is about right (I'm not a big fan, but that part is right) [b]All you have to do is study the clubs motion to see where the manipulations happen.[/b] [/quote]

All righty then, show us what the manipulations are and where they happen. You said they are there, show them to us.

[quote][b]I'm not saying it's inherently bad I guess with good hand eye coordination everything works, guys on tour do do it that way so drive hold is a workable concept I suppose it's one way to use a club. [/b][/quote]

It's the predominant release on the men's tours worldwide and requires the least hand/eye coordination. That's why they are the best drivers.

[quote][b]It's just not that pure way that so many great players used.[/b][/quote]

I'd say that is exactly how most of the greats played. Only a handful were rollers or flippers.

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1412566948' post='10241731']
[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412566002' post='10241657']
[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1412564603' post='10241527']
[b]With the real strong grip through impact it looks draggy.[/b] [b]Just watching the butt of the club and it sort of has to be because if the club fully releases the face has a good chance of being slightly shut. [/b]

[b]I just wouldn't say the club in that orientation is experiencing the phenomenon great golfers do called releasing the club.

Like I said drive hold matches the method it's just not a method that involves freely releasing the golf club through impact. It's a manipulation.[/b]
[/quote]


Here is Lucas's student, 13 year old Sofia Amoroso, 4' 11" and 100 pounds, with a super strong grip. She is driving it 50 to 80 yards past her competitors. Please explain why you think she isn't "fully releasing the golf club through impact", and how "fully releasing" would look different. Also, please identify the "manipulation" you see in her release.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNLMK8SPtRo[/media]

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_Rfc62g4AU[/media]
[/quote]

That's a nice move, but I am not going to comment on a 13 year old girls swing other than it's nice. Some might tend to give young girls more of a ten finger neutral until they get stronger another way is a strong grip. In this case it's not misapplied at all and I like her move.
Good for her.
[/quote]

Shenanigans. You were quite specific about the faults a super strong grip would create and Sofia has a super strong grip. This season she won the first two rounds of Drive Chip & Putt and finished third in the regional finals. She had the longest drive in the finals against girls literally twice her size and is routinely outdriving opponents in local competition by 50 to 80 yards. Yet, according to you, her grip is creating flaws. Show us what they are.

[Hoganstriker]

[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412567255' post='10241747']
[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1412566070' post='10241663'][b]Usually guys who grip it strong tend to drag it or push it rather than swing it.[/b] [/quote]

If that's true, it would probably be because they don't control left shoulder IR/ER very well. You get that under control, you can do anything with a strong grip.

[quote]It all matches that way, the fundies and the tendency and that's golf. TGM is pretty right on the money on some things and the strong single action grip is about right (I'm not a big fan, but that part is right) [b]All you have to do is study the clubs motion to see where the manipulations happen.[/b] [/quote]

All righty then, show us what the manipulations are and where they happen. You said they are there, show them to us.

[quote][b]I'm not saying it's inherently bad I guess with good hand eye coordination everything works, guys on tour do do it that way so drive hold is a workable concept I suppose it's one way to use a club. [/b][/quote]

It's the predominant release on the men's tours worldwide and requires the least hand/eye coordination. That's why they are the best drivers.

[quote][b]It's just not that pure way that so many great players used.[/b][/quote]

I'd say that is exactly how most of the greats played. Only a handful were rollers or flippers.
[/quote]

You say that's what most of the 'greats' did (hold drag) and the alternative is roll or flip? Try again and it's not free lesson time. Again not saying that cannot be made to work.
On the er or left shoulder sure, if you hold enough the strong grip is great but it's always a hold. It's just not what the greats did.
Most of them fired everything back to square but no more. No need to gauge things or hold anything. It's fire everything-the hold is an option available for a softer fadier type shot but it's not the low riser balata shot they could drop either way on demand or the high bomb low spin drive. It's not all about body moves. There's many ways to massage the basic swing motion of the club to produce different effects due to how it works and really the current research has not scratched the surface of proving what many great players learned by doing.
Anyways nice chat, remember there's not one answer and there's a long history to golf. There's many methods and many ways people know. No one has all the answers. Be respectful and keep an open mind and maybe you can continue to learn, that's all any of us can hope for.
It's definitely not about internet posts and arguments lol. Open mind and learning and study. Each of us can learn more since we are all students of the game.
The posting and arguing is good fun but you reach a point where it can go no further. I enjoy reading your spirited posts and arguments...just...keep an open mind there's more out there than just one guy in HI.
Good luck proving yourself as the final word on golf.

[pinehurst]

I think Miyahira has done a great service to the golfing community with his research and writings. I don't think you will find the type of information he has made available, free of charge, anywhere else online. He has obviously spent thousands of hours producing these articles, and there is a treasure chest of information to be had within them. All it takes to learn is an open mind and the willingness to carefully read and study. Not that they would ever admit it, but I think you will start to see a lot of his ideas adopted by other more well known teachers in the future. I believe some already have.

[RBImGuy]

[quote name='pinehurst' timestamp='1412571276' post='10241971']
I think Miyahira has done a great service to the golfing community with his research and writings. I don't think you will find the type of information he has made available, free of charge, anywhere else online. He has obviously spent thousands of hours producing these articles, and there is a treasure chest of information to be had within them. All it takes to learn is an open mind and the willingness to carefully read and study. Not that they would ever admit it, but I think you will start to see a lot of his ideas adopted by other more well known teachers in the future. I believe some already have.
[/quote]

The best source online IMO.
Just need to understand he do study limited golf swings that hold compensations and why they also need to do a drive hold release slowing down stuff.
so if one do want to swing like the best tour players (I dont suggest to do so) then Kelvins research is a goldmine.

[tembolo1284]

Anyone use the speed chain?

[RichieHunt]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1412597879' post='10242463']
Anyone use the speed chain?
[/quote]

I have never used it (don't have room).

But I got introduced to Kelvin's work when I was working with Ted Fort on my swing. Ted has purchased a speed chain and said it really works. He would measure his swing speed before and after doing a session with the speed chain and found that he consistently would gain about 3-4 mph of club head speed. I have heard similar things from other speed chain users.





RH

[vinax]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1412597879' post='10242463']
Anyone use the speed chain?
[/quote]

I dont only because i would look like a fool using it anywhere in public.

I do not doubt that it would work - I love Kelvins website, pictures, articles, videos & webinars

Yes he has a strong opinion so does almost anyone who is great at what they do.

[tembolo1284]

damn if that speed chain works I might need to get it.

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1412568781' post='10241829']
[b]You say that's what most of the 'greats' did (hold drag) and the alternative is roll or flip?[/b] [b]Try again and it's not free lesson time.[/b] Again not saying that cannot be made to work.[/quote]


What's a "hold drag"? Something you made up? Never heard of it before.

The great English golf champion, researcher and instructor Henry Cotton, who used high speed photography, categorized release styles into three groups: push, crossover, and slap/hinge. Decades later, and completely independently, Kelvin created virtually identical categories from his research with high speed video: drive/hold, roller, and flip. You're right that there is a long history in golf and, like all history, it repeats itself.

It certainly sounds to my like you could use a free lesson on Kelvin's release categories, which include many sub-categories, as well as the important elements typical of high quality drive/hold swings. Here you go.

Linked below is Kel's seminal article on PGA tour release styles. Note that this article is three years old; since then, more high speed video has become available, prompting some players to be switched to other categories. Also, since drive/holders are more or less rollers who don't roll as much, and under-flippers are more or less drive/holders who lose left wrist flexion/right wrist extension a little sooner, the lines can be a bit blurry with some players. Lastly, Kel has created more categories since that article was published, notably the "flip-and-drive", a category created for Lee Westwood and Chad Campbell.

[url="http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2010-09-pga-tour-release-styles.html"]http://www.aroundhaw...ase-styles.html[/url]


Here is a more recent article on the basic elements of a drive/hold swing. You'll note that the "hold off" finish (a trademark of both pre-Haney Tiger and Ben Hogan) is just one of about 30 "macro move" elements.

[url="http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2013-12-essentials-of-the-drivehold-swing.html"]http://www.aroundhaw...hold-swing.html[/url]




Jeff

[Lucas Wald]

I just read through this thread and saw my name mentioned several times. First, I would like to thank some of you for the gracious comments you‘ve made regarding my swing evolution. I don’t plan on posting regularly here but I would like to give my take on this topic.

Qualitatively speaking no one in the history of this game has laid out the precise patterns of movement of the best and most powerful players of all time. Kelvin has done this! This blueprint, if understood, allows one to achieve remarkable results. Proper proprioception is difficult and the truth is, for an adult, one hour golf lessons do not work! Golf professionals need to be honest and tell students how difficult this really is. For example, try and learn a foreign language as an adult or try and learn a musical instrument. Yet alone, play that instrument like Beethoven or Mozart. Ha. Good Luck right. But we as golfers want that, we want to hit the ball 300 yards and shoot in the mid 60’s.

My contention is this: Almost anyone can learn a world class golf swing but most aren’t willing to put in the required time to accomplish IT. And, most teaching pros learned the game as a kid, and therefore didn’t know consciously the moves they were making subconsciously. This makes things very difficult because they lack the confidence to relay the information needed, successfully. This is not a knock toward teaching pros, as I feel most would agree that they learned the game as a kid. Learning any new motor skill, especially as an adult, is hard.

My final point is this. Kelvin has put out numerous case studies of students with before/after videos and I’ve put out numerous as well. Likewise, many of these can be verified with quantitative information showing increases in clubhead speed, ballspeed, carry distances and yes accuracy improvements. Can anyone else in golf or has anyone else in the golfing business shown these results? If they have, I would certainly like to see them.

Like the wise sage says, “You have to do all you can do and then learn non-doing, the doing of the non-doing is the greatest doing, and the effort of the effortlessness is the greatest effort.”

-Lucas Wald

[iteachgolf]

Do you really believe only you and Kelvin have increased players speed, distance, and accuracy? And that nobody else has done this and can prove it?

There are a ton of pros putting out before and after videos of their students. Many many pros are helping students improve all over. You guys are far from the only ones doing it.

[Ghost of Snead]

[quote name='Lucas Wald' timestamp='1412627080' post='10244727']
I just read through this thread and saw my name mentioned several times. First, I would like to thank some of you for the gracious comments you‘ve made regarding my swing evolution. I don’t plan on posting regularly here but I would like to give my take on this topic.

Qualitatively speaking no one in the history of this game has laid out the precise patterns of movement of the best and most powerful players of all time. Kelvin has done this! This blueprint, if understood, allows one to achieve remarkable results. Proper proprioception is difficult and the truth is, for an adult, one hour golf lessons do not work! Golf professionals need to be honest and tell students how difficult this really is. For example, try and learn a foreign language as an adult or try and learn a musical instrument. Yet alone, play that instrument like Beethoven or Mozart. Ha. Good Luck right. But we as golfers want that, we want to hit the ball 300 yards and shoot in the mid 60’s.

My contention is this: Almost anyone can learn a world class golf swing but most aren’t willing to put in the required time to accomplish IT. And, most teaching pros learned the game as a kid, and therefore didn’t know consciously the moves they were making subconsciously. This makes things very difficult because they lack the confidence to relay the information needed, successfully. This is not a knock toward teaching pros, as I feel most would agree that they learned the game as a kid. Learning any new motor skill, especially as an adult, is hard.

My final point is this. Kelvin has put out numerous case studies of students with before/after videos and I’ve put out numerous as well. Likewise, many of these can be verified with quantitative information showing increases in clubhead speed, ballspeed, carry distances and yes accuracy improvements. [b]Can anyone else in golf or has anyone else in the golfing business shown these results? If they have, I would certainly like to see them.[/b]

Like the wise sage says, “You have to do all you can do and then learn non-doing, the doing of the non-doing is the greatest doing, and the effort of the effortlessness is the greatest effort.”

-Lucas Wald
[/quote]

Not an instructor, but you must owe Kelvin a lot of money to make such a brash and arrogant statement ? Which players on the PGA Tour have benefited from Kelvin's instruction ?

[spider]

[quote name='Lucas Wald' timestamp='1412627080' post='10244727']
I just read through this thread and saw my name mentioned several times. First, I would like to thank some of you for the gracious comments you‘ve made regarding my swing evolution. I don’t plan on posting regularly here but I would like to give my take on this topic.

Qualitatively speaking no one in the history of this game has laid out the precise patterns of movement of the best and most powerful players of all time. Kelvin has done this! This blueprint, if understood, allows one to achieve remarkable results. Proper proprioception is difficult and the truth is, for an adult, one hour golf lessons do not work! Golf professionals need to be honest and tell students how difficult this really is. For example, try and learn a foreign language as an adult or try and learn a musical instrument. Yet alone, play that instrument like Beethoven or Mozart. Ha. Good Luck right. But we as golfers want that, we want to hit the ball 300 yards and shoot in the mid 60’s.

My contention is this: Almost anyone can learn a world class golf swing but most aren’t willing to put in the required time to accomplish IT. And, most teaching pros learned the game as a kid, and therefore didn’t know consciously the moves they were making subconsciously. This makes things very difficult because they lack the confidence to relay the information needed, successfully. This is not a knock toward teaching pros, as I feel most would agree that they learned the game as a kid. Learning any new motor skill, especially as an adult, is hard.

My final point is this. Kelvin has put out numerous case studies of students with before/after videos and I’ve put out numerous as well. Likewise, many of these can be verified with quantitative information showing increases in clubhead speed, ballspeed, carry distances and yes accuracy improvements. Can anyone else in golf or has anyone else in the golfing business shown these results? If they have, I would certainly like to see them.

Like the wise sage says, “You have to do all you can do and then learn non-doing, the doing of the non-doing is the greatest doing, and the effort of the effortlessness is the greatest effort.”

-Lucas Wald
[/quote]

I dunno maybe I'm just being grumpy cuz it is Monday so forgive me in advance. It sure seem like this is your first time even looking through this forum. To me you came off as somewhat condescending and no real anything but puff in your first post. A little homework and you might realize there are a lot of smart instructors, players and others on this site. Heck just youtube Iteach for a lot of students improvements.

Mind you I'm not one of those but enjoy learning from this site. You will find even the non instructor here has a pretty good overall grasp of many golf swing theories and can keep up with many of the terms that some pga teaching pros wouldn't even know.

Only thing I learned today was that you are the best or KH is the best and you haven't taken the time to see anyone else's results...let alone just some of the instructors on WRX results.

I'm grumpy because:
qualitatively: it is Monday and hot, bad hair day, swing is not pretty

quantitatively: commute is over 1 hour, handicap high (7.1), swing speed slow (???? under 125 sux here) , girs below 50%

edited for typos

[AndyC]

[quote name='lefty57' timestamp='1412629930' post='10244961']
[quote name='Lucas Wald' timestamp='1412627080' post='10244727']
I just read through this thread and saw my name mentioned several times. First, I would like to thank some of you for the gracious comments you‘ve made regarding my swing evolution. I don’t plan on posting regularly here but I would like to give my take on this topic.

Qualitatively speaking no one in the history of this game has laid out the precise patterns of movement of the best and most powerful players of all time. Kelvin has done this! This blueprint, if understood, allows one to achieve remarkable results. Proper proprioception is difficult and the truth is, for an adult, one hour golf lessons do not work! Golf professionals need to be honest and tell students how difficult this really is. For example, try and learn a foreign language as an adult or try and learn a musical instrument. Yet alone, play that instrument like Beethoven or Mozart. Ha. Good Luck right. But we as golfers want that, we want to hit the ball 300 yards and shoot in the mid 60’s.

My contention is this: Almost anyone can learn a world class golf swing but most aren’t willing to put in the required time to accomplish IT. And, most teaching pros learned the game as a kid, and therefore didn’t know consciously the moves they were making subconsciously. This makes things very difficult because they lack the confidence to relay the information needed, successfully. This is not a knock toward teaching pros, as I feel most would agree that they learned the game as a kid. Learning any new motor skill, especially as an adult, is hard.

My final point is this. Kelvin has put out numerous case studies of students with before/after videos and I’ve put out numerous as well. Likewise, many of these can be verified with quantitative information showing increases in clubhead speed, ballspeed, carry distances and yes accuracy improvements. [b]Can anyone else in golf or has anyone else in the golfing business shown these results? If they have, I would certainly like to see them.[/b]

Like the wise sage says, “You have to do all you can do and then learn non-doing, the doing of the non-doing is the greatest doing, and the effort of the effortlessness is the greatest effort.”

-Lucas Wald
[/quote]

Not an instructor, but you must owe Kelvin a lot of money to make such a brash and arrogant statement ? Which players on the PGA Tour have benefited from Kelvin's instruction ?
[/quote]

It wasn't a statement it was a question. If you can show him I think everybody would like to see.

[AndyC]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1412628561' post='10244861']
Do you really believe only you and Kelvin have increased players speed, distance, and accuracy? And that nobody else has done this and can prove it?

There are a ton of pros putting out before and after videos of their students. Many many pros are helping students improve all over. You guys are far from the only ones doing it.
[/quote]

No doubt there are many pros helping golfers out around the country. Kelvin specializes in speed training. Are there really a bunch of pros out there who know jack about speed training? Given that more top golfers are on the high end of the swing speed scale than on the low end it seems like he addresses a pretty important aspect of the swing.

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='AndyC' timestamp='1412631779' post='10245145']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1412628561' post='10244861']
Do you really believe only you and Kelvin have increased players speed, distance, and accuracy? And that nobody else has done this and can prove it?

There are a ton of pros putting out before and after videos of their students. Many many pros are helping students improve all over. You guys are far from the only ones doing it.
[/quote]

No doubt there are many pros helping golfers out around the country. Kelvin specializes in speed training. Are there really a bunch of pros out there who know jack about speed training? Given that more top golfers are on the high end of the swing speed scale than on the low end it seems like he addresses a pretty important aspect of the swing.
[/quote]

Speed comes from good mechanics that produce dynamic movement. It's not like speed is some mystery. Plenty of teachers get a majority of their students to hit it further and straighter. Especially average golfers. It's ignorant to think otherwise.

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='vinax' timestamp='1412608294' post='10243111']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1412597879' post='10242463']
Anyone use the speed chain?
[/quote]

I dont only because i would look like a fool using it anywhere in public.

I do not doubt that it would work - I love Kelvins website, pictures, articles, videos & webinars

[b]Yes he has a strong opinion so does almost anyone who is great at what they do.[/b]
[/quote]

Conversely I've found the opposite. The people that are actually good can recognize the merits of other things, even radically different than what they advocate.

[pinhigh27]

I guess my biggest surprise throughout this whole thread is the fact that people find it noteworthy when someone teaches a swing method where you swing to 45 * past parallel, the players hit it further than they did before/their competitors, and that's somehow notable.

Next on news @ 5, man practices putting, putting improves.

[AndyC]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1412632135' post='10245175']Speed comes from good mechanics that produce dynamic movement. It's not like speed is some mystery. [b]Plenty of teachers get a majority of their students to hit it further and straighter[/b]. Especially average golfers. It's ignorant to think otherwise.[/quote]

Wow really? The mystery is that many teachers don't know how to teach dynamic movement to their students. Plenty of teachers get absolutely no improvement from their students let alone get them to hit it both longer and straighter. It is self-serving to say that plenty of teachers get a majority to hit it further and straighter.

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='AndyC' timestamp='1412632855' post='10245261']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1412632135' post='10245175']Speed comes from good mechanics that produce dynamic movement. It's not like speed is some mystery. [b]Plenty of teachers get a majority of their students to hit it further and straighter[/b]. Especially average golfers. It's ignorant to think otherwise.[/quote]

Wow really? The mystery is that many teachers don't know how to teach dynamic movement to their students. Plenty of teachers get absolutely no improvement from their students let alone get them to hit it both longer and straighter. It is self-serving to say that plenty of teachers get a majority to hit it further and straighter.
[/quote]

a) there's nothing wrong with being self-serving. altruism is a joke.
b) Just because the average teacher sucks doesn't mean there aren't numerous good teachers.

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='AndyC' timestamp='1412632855' post='10245261']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1412632135' post='10245175']Speed comes from good mechanics that produce dynamic movement. It's not like speed is some mystery. [b]Plenty of teachers get a majority of their students to hit it further and straighter[/b]. Especially average golfers. It's ignorant to think otherwise.[/quote]

Wow really? The mystery is that many teachers don't know how to teach dynamic movement to their students. Plenty of teachers get absolutely no improvement from their students let alone get them to hit it both longer and straighter. It is self-serving to say that plenty of teachers get a majority to hit it further and straighter.
[/quote]

The funny thing is I can back up what I say. Can you say the same? You think it takes an "expert" to figure out a strong grip with a really long swing while trying to create a ton of lag can create more distance? Everyone knows how LD guys create speed. The key is that gonna make someone actually better or are LD mechanics good to teach the masses?

How many teachers have you spent extensive time around? How many do you know? Again I'm 100% certain I have a better grasp of what guys that teach at the upper levels are capable of than you. It's laughable that you could think otherwise.

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1412633370' post='10245307']
[quote name='AndyC' timestamp='1412632855' post='10245261']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1412632135' post='10245175']Speed comes from good mechanics that produce dynamic movement. It's not like speed is some mystery. [b]Plenty of teachers get a majority of their students to hit it further and straighter[/b]. Especially average golfers. It's ignorant to think otherwise.[/quote]

Wow really? The mystery is that many teachers don't know how to teach dynamic movement to their students. Plenty of teachers get absolutely no improvement from their students let alone get them to hit it both longer and straighter. It is self-serving to say that plenty of teachers get a majority to hit it further and straighter.
[/quote]

The funny thing is I can back up what I say. Can you say the same? [b]You think it takes an "expert" to figure out a strong grip with a really long swing while trying to create a ton of lag can create more distance? Everyone knows how LD guys create speed. The key is that gonna make someone actually better or are LD mechanics good to teach the masses?[/b]

How many teachers have you spent extensive time around? How many do you know? Again I'm 100% certain I have a better grasp of what guys that teach at the upper levels are capable of than you. It's laughable that you could think otherwise.
[/quote]

i've been saying this for 30 pages

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='AndyC' timestamp='1412632855' post='10245261']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1412632135' post='10245175']Speed comes from good mechanics that produce dynamic movement. It's not like speed is some mystery. [b]Plenty of teachers get a majority of their students to hit it further and straighter[/b]. Especially average golfers. It's ignorant to think otherwise.[/quote]

Wow really? The mystery is that many teachers don't know how to teach dynamic movement to their students. Plenty of teachers get absolutely no improvement from their students let alone get them to hit it both longer and straighter. It is self-serving to say that plenty of teachers get a majority to hit it further and straighter.
[/quote]
Why is that so hard to grasp?? Could it be because over on jeffys forum, all 3 members do nothing but talk about how great kelvin is and how clueless everyone else is?? You know if you hear BS for long enough you will start to believe it. Not to say that kelvin and Lucas aren't competent teachers. But you have to wonder how they could possibly think they are the only guys in the world who understand the golf swing, much less convince other people of that. It's a big turn off/cult feel to me.

[gwlee7]

Ah guys, the answer to all of this is 42,

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='Lucas Wald' timestamp='1412627080' post='10244727']
I just read through this thread and saw my name mentioned several times. First, I would like to thank some of you for the gracious comments you‘ve made regarding my swing evolution. I don’t plan on posting regularly here but I would like to give my take on this topic.

Qualitatively speaking no one in the history of this game has laid out the precise patterns of movement of the best and most powerful players of all time. Kelvin has done this! This blueprint, if understood, allows one to achieve remarkable results. Proper proprioception is difficult and the truth is, for an adult, one hour golf lessons do not work! Golf professionals need to be honest and tell students how difficult this really is. For example, try and learn a foreign language as an adult or try and learn a musical instrument. Yet alone, play that instrument like Beethoven or Mozart. Ha. Good Luck right. But we as golfers want that, we want to hit the ball 300 yards and shoot in the mid 60’s.

My contention is this: Almost anyone can learn a world class golf swing but most aren’t willing to put in the required time to accomplish IT. And, most teaching pros learned the game as a kid, and therefore didn’t know consciously the moves they were making subconsciously. This makes things very difficult because they lack the confidence to relay the information needed, successfully. This is not a knock toward teaching pros, as I feel most would agree that they learned the game as a kid. Learning any new motor skill, especially as an adult, is hard.

My final point is this. Kelvin has put out numerous case studies of students with before/after videos and I’ve put out numerous as well. Likewise, many of these can be verified with quantitative information showing increases in clubhead speed, ballspeed, carry distances and yes accuracy improvements. Can anyone else in golf or has anyone else in the golfing business shown these results? If they have, I would certainly like to see them.

Like the wise sage says, “You have to do all you can do and then learn non-doing, the doing of the non-doing is the greatest doing, and the effort of the effortlessness is the greatest effort.”

-Lucas Wald
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[PutterKilledTheDream]

This has almost reached Mayo-thread epic proportions lol

[AndyC]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1412633370' post='10245307']
[quote name='AndyC' timestamp='1412632855' post='10245261']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1412632135' post='10245175']Speed comes from good mechanics that produce dynamic movement. It's not like speed is some mystery. [b]Plenty of teachers get a majority of their students to hit it further and straighter[/b]. Especially average golfers. It's ignorant to think otherwise.[/quote]

Wow really? The mystery is that many teachers don't know how to teach dynamic movement to their students. Plenty of teachers get absolutely no improvement from their students let alone get them to hit it both longer and straighter. It is self-serving to say that plenty of teachers get a majority to hit it further and straighter.
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The funny thing is I can back up what I say. Can you say the same? You think it takes an "expert" to figure out a strong grip with a really long swing while trying to create a ton of lag can create more distance? Everyone knows how LD guys create speed. The key is that gonna make someone actually better or are LD mechanics good to teach the masses?

How many teachers have you spent extensive time around? How many do you know? Again I'm 100% certain I have a better grasp of what guys that teach at the upper levels are capable of than you. It's laughable that you could think otherwise.
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Sure I can back it up. I can provide an extensive list of golfers that have gone to pros for lessons and shown no improvement whatsoever.

Why the hostility? Is Kelvin a threat to you?

Why don't you show us how easy it is to increase swing speed? Surely a person of your expertise could add 10mph to their own swing with just a few adjustments.

[AndyC]

[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1412634016' post='10245377']
[quote name='AndyC' timestamp='1412632855' post='10245261']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1412632135' post='10245175']Speed comes from good mechanics that produce dynamic movement. It's not like speed is some mystery. [b]Plenty of teachers get a majority of their students to hit it further and straighter[/b]. Especially average golfers. It's ignorant to think otherwise.[/quote]

Wow really? The mystery is that many teachers don't know how to teach dynamic movement to their students. Plenty of teachers get absolutely no improvement from their students let alone get them to hit it both longer and straighter. It is self-serving to say that plenty of teachers get a majority to hit it further and straighter.
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Why is that so hard to grasp?? Could it be because over on jeffys forum, all 3 members do nothing but talk about how great kelvin is and how clueless everyone else is?? You know if you hear BS for long enough you will start to believe it. Not to say that kelvin and Lucas aren't competent teachers. But you have to wonder how they could possibly think they are the only guys in the world who understand the golf swing, much less convince other people of that. It's a big turn off/cult feel to me.
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I know nothing of Jeffy's forum. I certainly don't condone bashing someone to make yourself look better. In my world of golf I appreciate the Kelvins and Iteachs of the world who present their viewpoints and experiences. Ultimately, if what someone teaches doesn't work they will soon be discovered for what they are, a salesman with nothing to sell.