Another “record” for Woods?

[Chunkitgood]

Apparently they’ve decided Woods has not been celebrated enough, and have decided to give him the record for most wins in consecutive starts on the PGA Tour, by the simple expedient of lopping of five years or so of the Tour’s history.   Sure they say since 1950, but who pays attention to such qualifiers, it will be lost in practice anyway, and how many younger people know the Tour existed before 1950 anyway?

 

In keeping with my resolution to avoid incendiary language on this forum, I will just say…well, I can’t say much in keeping with that resolution.

[Oostiesalbacore]

Since 2010, I’ve won as many US Opens as Tiger Woods. 
 

Since 1984, I have never lost even a casual round at Augusta and have an undefeated record at the Masters. (0 appearances)

 

is Tiger undefeated at Augusta? lol no but I am 😉

[aenemated]

17 minutes ago, Oostiesalbacore said:

Since 2010, I’ve won as many US Opens as Tiger Woods. 
 

Since 1984, I have never lost even a casual round at Augusta and have an undefeated record at the Masters. (0 appearances)

 

is Tiger undefeated at Augusta? lol no but I am 😉

 

Between me and Tiger, we have 15 majors and three central North Carolina "All Conference" awards. 

 

I'd like to thank everyone who made this possible, particularly Mr. Jimmy "Possum" Coleman. Godspeed, coach. And no, I never made out with your daughter. 

 

Coach Byrd though ... yeah, I did. 

Edited May 10 by aenemated

[DoughBack18]

41 minutes ago, Chunkitgood said:

Apparently they’ve decided Woods has not been celebrated enough...   Sure they say since 1950, but who pays attention to such qualifiers, it will be lost in practice anyway, and how many younger people know the Tour existed before 1950 anyway?

 

In keeping with my resolution to avoid incendiary language on this forum, I will just say…well, I can’t say much in keeping with that resolution.

[bscinstnct]

8 minutes ago, aenemated said:

 

Between me and Tiger, we have 15 majors and three central North Carolina "All Conference" awards. 

 

I'd like to thank everyone who made this possible, particularly Mr. Jimmy "Possum" Coleman. Godspeed, coach. And no, I never made out with your daughter. 

 

Coach Byrd though ... yeah, I did. 

 

 

[aenemated]

1 hour ago, bscinstnct said:

 

 

 

[redfirebird08]

When are they gonna drop Sam Snead’s win count from 82 to 75ish? He has a bunch of pretty dubious wins counted in his total. 

[tatertot]

1 hour ago, redfirebird08 said:

When are they gonna drop Sam Snead’s win count from 82 to 75ish? He has a bunch of pretty dubious wins counted in his total. 

Right after they drop Jack's major total to 14.

[dropkicked]

🐯

[Oostiesalbacore]

Just wait until the TGL championship sponsored by Sun Day Red™️ becomes the fifth major

[redfirebird08]

3 hours ago, tatertot said:

Right after they drop Jack's major total to 14.

 

Bad comparison. Jack obviously won the 18 majors. This article does a pretty good job analyzing Snead's history: 

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20130610055501/http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/tiger-woods-actually-ahead-sam-snead-pga-tour-wins

 

Snead has 14 wins that should not be counted. But Snead also has 6 wins that should be added to his total. So 82-14+6 = 74. 

 

SUBTRACT 1 for 18-hole tournaments. The PGA Tour doesn't consider tournaments of fewer than 54 holes official, a decision made before Adam Scott beat Chad Campbell in a playoff at Riviera in 2005 when rain shortened the event to 36 holes. Snead won the first Bing Crosby event in 1937; it was reduced to 18 holes by rain.

 

SUBTRACT 5 for team victories. Titles won with partners don't count in modern golf. Snead won five of them, including the 1939 Miami-Biltmore Four-Ball and 1940 Inverness Invitational Four-Ball, both with Ralph Guldahl. Counting a pro-am event as a win is the equivalent of recognizing the team portion of the AT&T Pebble Beach National Pro-Am as a Tour victory.

 

SUBTRACT 3 for 36-hole tournaments. Snead won the Crosby again in '38. This time it was 36 holes. An even more egregious inclusion is the 1946 World Championship of Golf. The field of four played only 36 holes. That's like counting the PGA Grand Slam of Golf, which groups each year's major champions for a 36-hole outing, as an official event. If you recognize Snead's victory, you have to count Tiger's seven Grand Slam of Golf titles.

 

SUBTRACT 5 for Snead's victories in the Palm Beach Round Robin. In 1938 only 15 players competed, and in the other four years the field was 16.

 

ADD 1 for the 1949 North & South. The North & South was considered unofficial from 1947 through '49 because the purse was less than $5,000. But the '49 event, at Pinehurst, had a field of 100-plus, including most of the top players.

 

ADD 1 for the 1952 Julius Boros Open. The money was unofficial, but 25 pros competed over 54 holes.

 

ADD 1 for the 1953 Greenbrier Pro-Am. Snead topped a field of 42 players.

 

ADD 1 for the 1958 Greenbrier. The Tour probably didn't count this one because it was played at the same time as the Memphis Invitational, which it did rule official. But Greenbrier had a field of 57, including most of the day's top players, such as Ben Hogan, Gary Player, Doug Sanders and Dutch Harrison.

 

ADD 1 for the 1959 Sam Snead Festival. It was the same old Greenbrier event with a new name and another stellar field. Snead beat 54 others, but it was played opposite the official Arlington Hotel Open, won by Gene Littler.

 

ADD 1 for the 1961 Sam Snead Festival. Doug Sanders won the Hot Springs Invitational, which was opposite this event. Snead won his own Festival again in a decent field of 30.

 

[golferdude54]

1 hour ago, redfirebird08 said:

SUBTRACT 5 for team victories. Titles won with partners don't count in modern golf. Snead won five of them, including the 1939 Miami-Biltmore Four-Ball and 1940 Inverness Invitational Four-Ball, both with Ralph Guldahl. Counting a pro-am event as a win is the equivalent of recognizing the team portion of the AT&T Pebble Beach National Pro-Am as a Tour victory.

 

SUBTRACT 5 for Snead's victories in the Palm Beach Round Robin. In 1938 only 15 players competed, and in the other four years the field was 16.

 

 

 

 

Those two specific tournaments should count as victories; in order to win the four-ball tournaments back then you with your partner had to go undefeated for the rest of the week, often playing 36 holes per day.

 

If you lost just one match, you were out which is why the PGA Championship changed from match play to stroke play format and why WGC Match Play isn't single elimination so today's superstars' egos would still be intact after losing their first match to a no-name player.

 

The Palm Beach Round Robin consisted of the top 15/16 money winners on the PGA tour for the season at the time and each player had to play a match against the other 15 players. Again, they had to play two 18-hole matches against 2 different players everyday and the strength of the field was like if the Tour Championship was cut to top 15 instead of 30. To win, you couldn't lose twice.

Edited May 10 by golferdude54

[redfirebird08]

5 minutes ago, golferdude54 said:

 

Those two specific tournaments should count as victories; in order to win the four-ball tournaments back then you with your partner had to go undefeated for the rest of the week, often playing 36 holes per day.

 

If you lost just one match, you were out which is why the PGA Championship changed from match play to stroke play format and why WGC Match Play isn't single elimination so today's superstars' egos would still be intact after losing their first match to a no-name player.

 

The Palm Beach Round Robin consisted of the top 15/16 money winners on the PGA tour for the season at the time and each player had to play a match against the other 15 players. Again, they had to play two 18-hole matches against 2 different players everyday and the strength of the field was like if the Tour Championship was cut to top 15 instead of 30. To win, you couldn't lose twice.

How many total people in the field? The current Zurich Classic has 160 players on 80 teams. If it’s a small field team event, I don’t see how it should be counted.
 

I’m good if you want to throw out the Tour Championship & Sentry/Mercedes Tournament of Champions for modern players. Only focus on fields of at least 50 guys and that would be fair IMHO. 

[tatertot]

3 hours ago, redfirebird08 said:

 

Bad comparison. Jack obviously won the 18 majors. This article does a pretty good job analyzing Snead's history: 

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20130610055501/http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/tiger-woods-actually-ahead-sam-snead-pga-tour-wins

 

Snead has 14 wins that should not be counted. But Snead also has 6 wins that should be added to his total. So 82-14+6 = 74. 

 

SUBTRACT 1 for 18-hole tournaments. The PGA Tour doesn't consider tournaments of fewer than 54 holes official, a decision made before Adam Scott beat Chad Campbell in a playoff at Riviera in 2005 when rain shortened the event to 36 holes. Snead won the first Bing Crosby event in 1937; it was reduced to 18 holes by rain.

 

SUBTRACT 5 for team victories. Titles won with partners don't count in modern golf. Snead won five of them, including the 1939 Miami-Biltmore Four-Ball and 1940 Inverness Invitational Four-Ball, both with Ralph Guldahl. Counting a pro-am event as a win is the equivalent of recognizing the team portion of the AT&T Pebble Beach National Pro-Am as a Tour victory.

 

SUBTRACT 3 for 36-hole tournaments. Snead won the Crosby again in '38. This time it was 36 holes. An even more egregious inclusion is the 1946 World Championship of Golf. The field of four played only 36 holes. That's like counting the PGA Grand Slam of Golf, which groups each year's major champions for a 36-hole outing, as an official event. If you recognize Snead's victory, you have to count Tiger's seven Grand Slam of Golf titles.

 

SUBTRACT 5 for Snead's victories in the Palm Beach Round Robin. In 1938 only 15 players competed, and in the other four years the field was 16.

 

ADD 1 for the 1949 North & South. The North & South was considered unofficial from 1947 through '49 because the purse was less than $5,000. But the '49 event, at Pinehurst, had a field of 100-plus, including most of the top players.

 

ADD 1 for the 1952 Julius Boros Open. The money was unofficial, but 25 pros competed over 54 holes.

 

ADD 1 for the 1953 Greenbrier Pro-Am. Snead topped a field of 42 players.

 

ADD 1 for the 1958 Greenbrier. The Tour probably didn't count this one because it was played at the same time as the Memphis Invitational, which it did rule official. But Greenbrier had a field of 57, including most of the day's top players, such as Ben Hogan, Gary Player, Doug Sanders and Dutch Harrison.

 

ADD 1 for the 1959 Sam Snead Festival. It was the same old Greenbrier event with a new name and another stellar field. Snead beat 54 others, but it was played opposite the official Arlington Hotel Open, won by Gene Littler.

 

ADD 1 for the 1961 Sam Snead Festival. Doug Sanders won the Hot Springs Invitational, which was opposite this event. Snead won his own Festival again in a decent field of 30.

 

If you wanted to do this, it needed to be done before someone got close to the record. Now it just seems like rewriting history to get Tiger a record.

[mosesgolf]

Jack used to count his US AM wins as majors so from that standpoint Jack has 20 majors and Tiger 18.  IMO US AMs should count.  They do for Bobby Jones so why not for Jack and Tiger?  The record that matters most to Tiger is Jack's professional 18.  But imo it's really 20 vs 18 rn.

[Golfnutgalen]

2 hours ago, redfirebird08 said:

How many total people in the field? The current Zurich Classic has 160 players on 80 teams. If it’s a small field team event, I don’t see how it should be counted.
 

I’m good if you want to throw out the Tour Championship & Sentry/Mercedes Tournament of Champions for modern players. Only focus on fields of at least 50 guys and that would be fair IMHO. 

 

Exactly.

 

It deserves another thread probably, I could talk about it all day myself.

 

Every single team win of Hogan/Nelson/Snead's had between 8 and 16 teams (in Snead's case all but 1 of them were 8 teams). That's nothing compared to the Zurich event and even that one I have issues with. Arnie and Jack teamed up for a couple wins too, but at least that was in a field of 60 teams.

 

As for the round robins those had 16 players as well. The modern requirement for a win to be official is at least 20 players and 54 holes, so that takes out 15 of Snead's wins. It should be 16 because that's not even including the one Bing Crosby event which he tied with 3 others in 54 holes.

---------------

 

As for your ~50 player requirement, something around there seems fair to me as well. But everything I've seen points to the Hogan/Nelson/Snead era as being majority limited field events with no cuts as we know them today. Only the big events like the US Open and British had cuts (possibly the Western, and North and South as well, need to confirm). That didn't change in a big way until about 1957 when the Masters instituted a cut line and the other events followed suit in the following years.

 

They didn't need cuts back then because the fields were so small. That's how I interpreted it. Try to find a regular event that Snead, Hogan, or Nelson MC'd in before 1957. I can't, it doesn't exist. I could only find a couple finishes outside of the top 40 even.

 

I checked those names because they have well documented results on the PGA Tour's website (and because I have a thing for Nelson), but how about somebody else, for example Jug McSpaden? He played from 1928-1949 and had only 3 MCs, all in the US Open. How about a low finish? I couldn't find anything worse than a 33rd and 1 WD.

--------------

 

Anyway if we did require 50 players then Tiger and Nicklaus both lose 8 wins that I know of. Arnie would lose at least 3.

Edited May 10 by Golfnutgalen

[redfirebird08]

32 minutes ago, tatertot said:

If you wanted to do this, it needed to be done before someone got close to the record. Now it just seems like rewriting history to get Tiger a record.

Agreed. They should have done the proper accounting 30+ years ago, but they half-assed it. 

[Hawkeye77]

2 hours ago, mosesgolf said:

Jack used to count his US AM wins as majors so from that standpoint Jack has 20 majors and Tiger 18.  IMO US AMs should count.  They do for Bobby Jones so why not for Jack and Tiger?  The record that matters most to Tiger is Jack's professional 18.  But imo it's really 20 vs 18 rn.

Not Jack, the golfing world. Listen to broadcasts, etc. At some point it changed to counting professional majors - I think US Ams should count - so I count ‘em! 

[farmer]

Snead and all the players of his era played in the tournaments that were available.  Not their fault that some of the tournaments were a little sketchy.

[Rapidcat]

16 hours ago, mosesgolf said:

Jack used to count his US AM wins as majors so from that standpoint Jack has 20 majors and Tiger 18.  IMO US AMs should count.  They do for Bobby Jones so why not for Jack and Tiger?  The record that matters most to Tiger is Jack's professional 18.  But imo it's really 20 vs 18 rn.

 

Interesting post. In British Commonwealth countries until at least the late 80's both US and British AM wins were classified as majors, it wasn't an invention of Jack's. I remember reading back in those times seeing numerous statements as such, I particularly remember an article in Australian Golf Digest c.1988 which included that.

 

When Jack won his US AM's they would have been regarded as majors, when Tiger won his, no (whether that is fair is another issue).

[Duct Tape]

On 5/9/2024 at 6:00 PM, aenemated said:

 

Between me and Tiger, we have 15 majors and three central North Carolina "All Conference" awards. 

 

I'd like to thank everyone who made this possible, particularly Mr. Jimmy "Possum" Coleman. Godspeed, coach. And no, I never made out with your daughter. 

 

Coach Byrd though ... yeah, I did. 

Coach Byrd or his daughter?  🤓😀

[TiScape]

59 minutes ago, Duct Tape said:

Coach Byrd or his daughter?  🤓😀

 

[Rapidcat]

4 minutes ago, TiScape said:

 

 

Not that there's anything wrong with that

[tiderider]

On 5/10/2024 at 2:26 PM, redfirebird08 said:

 

Bad comparison. Jack obviously won the 18 majors. This article does a pretty good job analyzing Snead's history: 

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20130610055501/http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/tiger-woods-actually-ahead-sam-snead-pga-tour-wins

 

Snead has 14 wins that should not be counted. But Snead also has 6 wins that should be added to his total. So 82-14+6 = 74. 

 

SUBTRACT 1 for 18-hole tournaments. The PGA Tour doesn't consider tournaments of fewer than 54 holes official, a decision made before Adam Scott beat Chad Campbell in a playoff at Riviera in 2005 when rain shortened the event to 36 holes. Snead won the first Bing Crosby event in 1937; it was reduced to 18 holes by rain.

 

SUBTRACT 5 for team victories. Titles won with partners don't count in modern golf. Snead won five of them, including the 1939 Miami-Biltmore Four-Ball and 1940 Inverness Invitational Four-Ball, both with Ralph Guldahl. Counting a pro-am event as a win is the equivalent of recognizing the team portion of the AT&T Pebble Beach National Pro-Am as a Tour victory.

 

SUBTRACT 3 for 36-hole tournaments. Snead won the Crosby again in '38. This time it was 36 holes. An even more egregious inclusion is the 1946 World Championship of Golf. The field of four played only 36 holes. That's like counting the PGA Grand Slam of Golf, which groups each year's major champions for a 36-hole outing, as an official event. If you recognize Snead's victory, you have to count Tiger's seven Grand Slam of Golf titles.

 

SUBTRACT 5 for Snead's victories in the Palm Beach Round Robin. In 1938 only 15 players competed, and in the other four years the field was 16.

 

ADD 1 for the 1949 North & South. The North & South was considered unofficial from 1947 through '49 because the purse was less than $5,000. But the '49 event, at Pinehurst, had a field of 100-plus, including most of the top players.

 

ADD 1 for the 1952 Julius Boros Open. The money was unofficial, but 25 pros competed over 54 holes.

 

ADD 1 for the 1953 Greenbrier Pro-Am. Snead topped a field of 42 players.

 

ADD 1 for the 1958 Greenbrier. The Tour probably didn't count this one because it was played at the same time as the Memphis Invitational, which it did rule official. But Greenbrier had a field of 57, including most of the day's top players, such as Ben Hogan, Gary Player, Doug Sanders and Dutch Harrison.

 

ADD 1 for the 1959 Sam Snead Festival. It was the same old Greenbrier event with a new name and another stellar field. Snead beat 54 others, but it was played opposite the official Arlington Hotel Open, won by Gene Littler.

 

ADD 1 for the 1961 Sam Snead Festival. Doug Sanders won the Hot Springs Invitational, which was opposite this event. Snead won his own Festival again in a decent field of 30.

 

Edited May 12 by tiderider

[bscinstnct]

On 5/10/2024 at 3:26 PM, redfirebird08 said:

 

Bad comparison. Jack obviously won the 18 majors. This article does a pretty good job analyzing Snead's history: 

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20130610055501/http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/tiger-woods-actually-ahead-sam-snead-pga-tour-wins

 

Snead has 14 wins that should not be counted. But Snead also has 6 wins that should be added to his total. So 82-14+6 = 74. 

 

SUBTRACT 1 for 18-hole tournaments. The PGA Tour doesn't consider tournaments of fewer than 54 holes official, a decision made before Adam Scott beat Chad Campbell in a playoff at Riviera in 2005 when rain shortened the event to 36 holes. Snead won the first Bing Crosby event in 1937; it was reduced to 18 holes by rain.

 

SUBTRACT 5 for team victories. Titles won with partners don't count in modern golf. Snead won five of them, including the 1939 Miami-Biltmore Four-Ball and 1940 Inverness Invitational Four-Ball, both with Ralph Guldahl. Counting a pro-am event as a win is the equivalent of recognizing the team portion of the AT&T Pebble Beach National Pro-Am as a Tour victory.

 

SUBTRACT 3 for 36-hole tournaments. Snead won the Crosby again in '38. This time it was 36 holes. An even more egregious inclusion is the 1946 World Championship of Golf. The field of four played only 36 holes. That's like counting the PGA Grand Slam of Golf, which groups each year's major champions for a 36-hole outing, as an official event. If you recognize Snead's victory, you have to count Tiger's seven Grand Slam of Golf titles.

 

SUBTRACT 5 for Snead's victories in the Palm Beach Round Robin. In 1938 only 15 players competed, and in the other four years the field was 16.

 

ADD 1 for the 1949 North & South. The North & South was considered unofficial from 1947 through '49 because the purse was less than $5,000. But the '49 event, at Pinehurst, had a field of 100-plus, including most of the top players.

 

ADD 1 for the 1952 Julius Boros Open. The money was unofficial, but 25 pros competed over 54 holes.

 

ADD 1 for the 1953 Greenbrier Pro-Am. Snead topped a field of 42 players.

 

ADD 1 for the 1958 Greenbrier. The Tour probably didn't count this one because it was played at the same time as the Memphis Invitational, which it did rule official. But Greenbrier had a field of 57, including most of the day's top players, such as Ben Hogan, Gary Player, Doug Sanders and Dutch Harrison.

 

ADD 1 for the 1959 Sam Snead Festival. It was the same old Greenbrier event with a new name and another stellar field. Snead beat 54 others, but it was played opposite the official Arlington Hotel Open, won by Gene Littler.

 

ADD 1 for the 1961 Sam Snead Festival. Doug Sanders won the Hot Springs Invitational, which was opposite this event. Snead won his own Festival again in a decent field of 30.

 

 

Yeah, and I love Snead but giving him a PGA Tour win for arm wrestling Lloyd Magnum and Jimmy Demaret at the same time on the bar at the Dubuque Holiday Inn, as impressive as it is, is definitely a stretch. 

[tatertot]

11 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Yeah, and I love Snead but giving him a PGA Tour win for arm wrestling Lloyd Magnum and Jimmy Demaret at the same time on the bar at the Dubuque Holiday Inn, as impressive as it is, is definitely a stretch. 

Non-sequitor ... From all accounts, Lloyd Mangrum was a BAD man during the big one.

[bscinstnct]

37 minutes ago, tatertot said:

Non-sequitor ... From all accounts, Lloyd Mangrum was a BAD man during the big one.

 

Wow, thanks….

 

 

[tatertot]

3 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Wow, thanks….

 

 

Kinda makes standing over a 3-footer for par seem not so important.