Kelvin Miyahira: pro or con

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='RichieHunt' timestamp='1412108376' post='10213679']
I thought I remembered this post:

[i][b]For a bonus a visit to Newton Golf Institute ( pretty sure it's a hospital with padded cells) where Jeff Mann posts all by himself bagging Kelvin and Jeffy[/b][/i]

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1024825-kelvin-miyahira-method/#entry9374283"]http://www.golfwrx.c...d/#entry9374283[/url]

[i][b]Eightiron- [/b][/i]What made you change your mind about Jeff Mann in roughly 4 months?







RH
[/quote]


Now that's what I call a tactical nuke! LMAO

[RichieHunt]

[quote name='pick it up' timestamp='1412109153' post='10213759']
I already said the instructors swing speed is irrelevant, you seem to have missed that in your haste to defend your position. Must of flew over your head!
[/quote]

Do you get the idea that you are arguing my point for me?

*If* you are to use the 'must demonstrate a high level of proficiency' argument, then an instructor's club head speed is very relevant in terms of ballstriking because power is an integral component of ballstriking. That's where the argument is flawed. If I'm looking to improve my ballstriking performance...club head speed is part of that. And *if* I'm using the 'high level of proficiency' argument, that would negate all instructors that generate around 100 mph of club head speed.

But, I don't use that argument.

Why?

Because an instructor doesn't need to demonstrate the ability to generate club head speed for me to believe that they can instruct their students to increase their power. My experience with dealing with instructors tells me this. Not only with instructors who don't generate a lot of club head speed and get their students to do so...but the instructors that DO generate a lot of club head speed but struggle to improve their students' club head speed.







RH

[PutterKilledTheDream]

RH lets go a slightly different direction with this. What do you think it takes to become a good instructor? I don't think your Harmon and Bender examples are good one because both those were players before becoming teachers. Do you think a teacher can be truly effective at passing on something they have little first hand experience with themselves? And how and where do they learn how to do this without that experience? Forget about swing speed and the ability to create tour caliber mechanics, I'm talking about simply teaching someone how to become a good all-around player tee to green.

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412107057' post='10213529']


[color=#000000]Are you talking about a double amputee with the "head of the femur" intact? Beats the s*** out of me whether or not the "legs" can do anything in that case. Not at all relevant to Gracovetsky's research with the man born without legs.[/color]
[/quote]

Show me someone born without any leg appendage that doesn't have a femur. Generally when someone doesn't have a femur, their lower limb still develops typically and they just have a much shortened limb. I've never seen someone completely lacking an appendage from natural causes.

If basic engine of locomotion doesn't mean primary engine then idk what to tell you, you're just fishing. You definitely were wrong. Dude this is what I do.

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1412111509' post='10213949']
RH lets go a slightly different direction with this. What do you think it takes to become a good instructor? I don't think your Harmon and Bender examples are good one because both those were players before becoming teachers. Do you think a teacher can be truly effective at passing on something they have little first hand experience with themselves? And how and where do they learn how to do this without that experience? Forget about swing speed and the ability to create tour caliber mechanics, I'm talking about simply teaching someone how to become a good all-around player tee to green.
[/quote]

Experience at that level, preferably at the personal level if we're talking mechanics aside. Obviously Tiger isn't looking for 14 major winners as his coach but he's definitely going to be looking for someone that has been at least decent at golf at one point or another.

[pick it up]

[quote name='RichieHunt' timestamp='1412109927' post='10213815']
[quote name='pick it up' timestamp='1412109153' post='10213759']
I already said the instructors swing speed is irrelevant, you seem to have missed that in your haste to defend your position. Must of flew over your head!
[/quote]

Do you get the idea that you are arguing my point for me?

*If* you are to use the 'must demonstrate a high level of proficiency' argument, then an instructor's club head speed is very relevant in terms of ballstriking because power is an integral component of ballstriking. That's where the argument is flawed. If I'm looking to improve my ballstriking performance...club head speed is part of that. And *if* I'm using the 'high level of proficiency' argument, that would negate all instructors that generate around 100 mph of club head speed.

But, I don't use that argument.

Why?

Because an instructor doesn't need to demonstrate the ability to generate club head speed for me to believe that they can instruct their students to increase their power. My experience with dealing with instructors tells me this. Not only with instructors who don't generate a lot of club head speed and get their students to do so...but the instructors that DO generate a lot of club head speed but struggle to improve their students' club head speed.







RH
[/quote]


So why pick Lucas...what's the matter with George? Morad can't come up with the goods? There's a reason you picked Lucas and it ain't for his briliant ball striking, you said you wanted more c.h.s. so.... why Lucas? Simple answer you said he went from 108 to 120 and that impressed you. My point is proven by your own words. Lucas demonstrated the ability to be a proficient long hitter and thus you picked him because of it. It's the c.h.s. that you were after first and not the ball striking.

[Tod Johnson]

pinhigh27-

I'm not fishing and I'm definitely not wrong. I don't care what you do, dude; I have Gracovetsky's book and will quote from it when I get home.

[northgolf]

[quote name='pick it up' timestamp='1412114377' post='10214221']
[quote name='RichieHunt' timestamp='1412109927' post='10213815']
[quote name='pick it up' timestamp='1412109153' post='10213759']
I already said the instructors swing speed is irrelevant, you seem to have missed that in your haste to defend your position. Must of flew over your head!
[/quote]

Do you get the idea that you are arguing my point for me?

*If* you are to use the 'must demonstrate a high level of proficiency' argument, then an instructor's club head speed is very relevant in terms of ballstriking because power is an integral component of ballstriking. That's where the argument is flawed. If I'm looking to improve my ballstriking performance...club head speed is part of that. And *if* I'm using the 'high level of proficiency' argument, that would negate all instructors that generate around 100 mph of club head speed.

But, I don't use that argument.

Why?

Because an instructor doesn't need to demonstrate the ability to generate club head speed for me to believe that they can instruct their students to increase their power. My experience with dealing with instructors tells me this. Not only with instructors who don't generate a lot of club head speed and get their students to do so...but the instructors that DO generate a lot of club head speed but struggle to improve their students' club head speed.







RH
[/quote]


So why pick Lucas...what's the matter with George? Morad can't come up with the goods? There's a reason you picked Lucas and it ain't for his briliant ball striking, you said you wanted more c.h.s. so.... why Lucas? Simple answer you said he went from 108 to 120 and that impressed you. My point is proven by your own words. Lucas demonstrated the ability to be a proficient long hitter and thus you picked him because of it. It's the c.h.s. that you were after first and not the ball striking.
[/quote]

Get it right. RH is taking the lessons from KM, not Lucas. Lucas was just an example of KM taking an experience and accomplished adult player and making him better.

There is a simple problem here - the argument level is too deep and you aren't following it. Do yourself a favor rookie, and quit while you are behind.

[Tod Johnson]

pinhigh27-

Did you look at this abstract?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4033096

The first two sentences are as follows:

"[color=#000000][size=4]Locomotion was first achieved by the motion of the spine. The limbs came after, as an improvement, not as a substitute; and yet, analysis of bipedal gait concentrates almost exclusively on the motion of the limbs."[/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=4]What role does the spine play in locomotion? You'll find that answer further on in the abstract:[/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=4]"The necessary spinal movements are also analysed; the role of the musculoskeletal system is discussed and it is shown that the lumbar spine is a key structure in land locomotion, the pelvis being driven by the spine."[/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=4]By "basic" or "primary engine", Gracovetsky means the spine's role in locomotion predates the limbs in the evolutionary cycle, and remains the "primary engine" driving the pelvis. He is not using the word "engine" to mean "power source", as Jeff Mann did, which would be absurd.[/size][/color]


[color=#000000][size=4]In his book, [/size][/color][i]The Spinal Engine[/i][color=#000000][size=4], Gracovetsky sums up in a single sentence the role of the spine in locomotion:[/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=4]"Basically, the spinal engine converts the primitive lateral bend of the fish into an axial torque that drives the pelvis and, at the same time, stabilizes the head." p162 [/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=4]According to Chapter 11, the legless man was born without legs and rests on the pelvis. I can't upload any more pictures, so, for now, buy the book or his DVD, which has a video of the legless man walking, if you want more details. One of the interesting findings was that, if the subject's spine was immobilized by a velcro band wrapped around his shoulders, he could not walk.[/size][/color]

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412125968' post='10215199']
pinhigh27-

Did you look at this abstract?

[url="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4033096"]http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/4033096[/url]

The first two sentences are as follows:

"[color=#000000]Locomotion was first achieved by the motion of the spine. The limbs came after, as an improvement, not as a substitute; and yet, analysis of bipedal gait concentrates almost exclusively on the motion of the limbs."[/color]

[color=#000000]What role does the spine play in locomotion? You'll find that answer further on in the abstract:[/color]

[color=#000000]"The necessary spinal movements are also analysed; the role of the musculoskeletal system is discussed and it is shown that the lumbar spine is a key structure in land locomotion, the pelvis being driven by the spine."[/color]

[color=#000000]By "basic" or "primary engine", Gracovetsky means the spine's role in locomotion predates the limbs in the evolutionary cycle, and remains the "primary engine" driving the pelvis. He is not using the word "engine" to mean "power source", as Jeff Mann did, which would be absurd.[/color]


[color=#000000]In his book, [/color][i]The Spinal Engine[/i][color=#000000], Gracovetsky sums up in a single sentence the role of the spine in locomotion:[/color]

[color=#000000]"Basically, the spinal engine converts the primitive lateral bend of the fish into an axial torque that drives the pelvis and, at the same time, stabilizes the head." p162 [/color]

[color=#000000]According to Chapter 11, the legless man was born without legs and rests on the pelvis. I can't upload any more pictures, so, for now, buy the book or his DVD, which has a video of the legless man walking, if you want more details. One of the interesting findings was that, if the subject's spine was immobilized by a velcro band wrapped around his shoulders, he could not walk.[/color]
[/quote]

How is that interesting at all.. You have to naturally move your spine to walk. You can't move in any way with an immobile spine. You have to shift weight in some way to move.

I have no idea what that abstract is saying. As far as I'm aware, all mammals that have ever been alive feature limbs. That paper specifically says that limbs arose as an improvement. So we're talking the development of mammals like 200 million years ago.... Do you understand what the spine engine would entail in terms of walking? We'd be slithering on the ground. If we have no limbs, you wouldn't be able to balance upright ( which is what prompts my questions about the example lacking legs).

Everyone rests on their pelvis. I'm sitting on it right now. My question is whether this person simply had very small and underdeveloped limbs, or actually didn't have any at all, which I've never seen before and never even heard of.

[golfie1]

Tod,

Why would we buy a book outlining the fringe notion of how people locomote? Perhaps you can save us the money.....

Can you lateral bend without creating an axial torque?

"[color="#000000"]pelvis being driven by the spine" does that not sound like the engine? [/color]

[northgolf]

[quote name='golfie1' timestamp='1412127276' post='10215345']
Tod,

Why would we buy a book outlining the fringe notion of how people locomote? Perhaps you can save us the money.....

Can you lateral bend without creating an axial torque?

"[color=#000000]pelvis being driven by the spine" does that not sound like the engine? [/color]
[/quote]

Seriously, another newbie off on this tangent? shrill shills selling seashells by the shrill shill shore.

[pick it up]

[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1412120288' post='10214677']
[quote name='pick it up' timestamp='1412114377' post='10214221']
[quote name='RichieHunt' timestamp='1412109927' post='10213815']
[quote name='pick it up' timestamp='1412109153' post='10213759']
I already said the instructors swing speed is irrelevant, you seem to have missed that in your haste to defend your position. Must of flew over your head!
[/quote]

Do you get the idea that you are arguing my point for me?

*If* you are to use the 'must demonstrate a high level of proficiency' argument, then an instructor's club head speed is very relevant in terms of ballstriking because power is an integral component of ballstriking. That's where the argument is flawed. If I'm looking to improve my ballstriking performance...club head speed is part of that. And *if* I'm using the 'high level of proficiency' argument, that would negate all instructors that generate around 100 mph of club head speed.

But, I don't use that argument.

Why?

Because an instructor doesn't need to demonstrate the ability to generate club head speed for me to believe that they can instruct their students to increase their power. My experience with dealing with instructors tells me this. Not only with instructors who don't generate a lot of club head speed and get their students to do so...but the instructors that DO generate a lot of club head speed but struggle to improve their students' club head speed.







RH
[/quote]


So why pick Lucas...what's the matter with George? Morad can't come up with the goods? There's a reason you picked Lucas and it ain't for his briliant ball striking, you said you wanted more c.h.s. so.... why Lucas? Simple answer you said he went from 108 to 120 and that impressed you. My point is proven by your own words. Lucas demonstrated the ability to be a proficient long hitter and thus you picked him because of it. It's the c.h.s. that you were after first and not the ball striking.
[/quote]

Get it right. RH is taking the lessons from KM, not Lucas. Lucas was just an example of KM taking an experience and accomplished adult player and making him better.

There is a simple problem here - the argument level is too deep and you aren't following it. Do yourself a favor rookie, and quit while you are behind.
[/quote]


What r u talking about? I never said Richie was taking lessons from Lucas! I was implying Richie saw what Lucas accomplished with his swing speed change and that prompted him to use Lucas and Grant Hooper as the motivation to increase his club head speed first and not his ball striking, as he claimed his c.h.s was lacking. It wasn't Lucas's ball striking that Richie commented on and was so impressed with it was his gain in c.h.s.



I think i'm too deep for u too understand me...lol!

[bell812]

Pretty sure Richie picked Kelvin based on his results with Lucas. This would confirm Richie's statement of picking a teacher based on his results with a student, not his proffeciency as a player. Not sure how you could misinterpret that.

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1412126729' post='10215305']
[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412125968' post='10215199']
pinhigh27-

Did you look at this abstract?

[url="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4033096"]http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/4033096[/url]

The first two sentences are as follows:

"[color=#000000]Locomotion was first achieved by the motion of the spine. The limbs came after, as an improvement, not as a substitute; and yet, analysis of bipedal gait concentrates almost exclusively on the motion of the limbs."[/color]

[color=#000000]What role does the spine play in locomotion? You'll find that answer further on in the abstract:[/color]

[color=#000000]"The necessary spinal movements are also analysed; the role of the musculoskeletal system is discussed and it is shown that the lumbar spine is a key structure in land locomotion, the pelvis being driven by the spine."[/color]

[color=#000000]By "basic" or "primary engine", Gracovetsky means the spine's role in locomotion predates the limbs in the evolutionary cycle, and remains the "primary engine" driving the pelvis. He is not using the word "engine" to mean "power source", as Jeff Mann did, which would be absurd.[/color]


[color=#000000]In his book, [/color][i]The Spinal Engine[/i][color=#000000], Gracovetsky sums up in a single sentence the role of the spine in locomotion:[/color]

[color=#000000]"Basically, the spinal engine converts the primitive lateral bend of the fish into an axial torque that drives the pelvis and, at the same time, stabilizes the head." p162 [/color]

[color=#000000]According to Chapter 11, the legless man was born without legs and rests on the pelvis. I can't upload any more pictures, so, for now, buy the book or his DVD, which has a video of the legless man walking, if you want more details. One of the interesting findings was that, if the subject's spine was immobilized by a velcro band wrapped around his shoulders, he could not walk.[/color]
[/quote]

How is that interesting at all.. [b]You have to naturally move your spine to walk. You can't move in any way with an immobile spine.[/b] You have to shift weight in some way to move. [/quote]

That is Gracovetsky's theory. The pedestrian theory implies you don't need a mobile spine. He covers that in chapter 9. That's why Gracovetsky's thinks spinal fusions should be avoided.

[quote]I have no idea what that abstract is saying. As far as I'm aware, all mammals that have ever been alive feature limbs.[/quote]

Whales?

[quote]That paper specifically says that limbs arose as an improvement. So we're talking the development of mammals like 200 million years ago.... [b]Do you understand what the spine engine would entail in terms of walking? We'd be slithering on the ground. If we have no limbs, you wouldn't be able to balance upright[/b] ( which is what prompts my questions about the example lacking legs).[/quote]

Yep. Gracovetsky covers all that in the first chapter.

[quote]Everyone rests on their pelvis. I'm sitting on it right now. [b]My question is whether this person simply had very small and underdeveloped limbs, or actually didn't have any at all[/b], which I've never seen before and never even heard of.
[/quote]

He says no legs at all, and I can't see anything that looks like limbs in the pictures or video.

[eagle1997]

[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412130478' post='10215695']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1412126729' post='10215305']
As far as I'm aware, all mammals that have ever been alive feature limbs.[/quote]

Whales?
[/quote]

so perfect. lol.

[dap]

[quote name='eagle1997' timestamp='1412131293' post='10215767']
[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412130478' post='10215695']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1412126729' post='10215305']
As far as I'm aware, all mammals that have ever been alive feature limbs.[/quote]

Whales?
[/quote]

so perfect. lol.


[/quote]
The front flippers would be considered limbs. Also many people don't know that whales did once have useable legs and they still have leg bones concealed just under the skin.

[Silky]

[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412125968' post='10215199']
pinhigh27-

Did you look at this abstract?

[url="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4033096"]http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/4033096[/url]

......

[color=#000000][size=4]In his book, [/size][/color][i]The Spinal Engine[/i][color=#000000][size=4], Gracovetsky sums up in a single sentence the role of the spine in locomotion:[/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=4]"Basically, the spinal engine converts the primitive lateral bend of the fish into [b]an axial torque that drives the pelvis[/b] and, at the same time, stabilizes the head." p162 [/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=4]According to Chapter 11, the legless man was born without legs and rests on the pelvis. I can't upload any more pictures, so, for now, buy the book or his DVD, which has a video of the legless man walking, if you want more details. One of the interesting findings was that, if the subject's spine was immobilized by a velcro band wrapped around his shoulders, he could not walk.[/size][/color]
[/quote]

Should not the objective of the pivot in golf be to drive the shoulder girdle, not the pelvis?
Or is it that the same muscle group of the spine engine would drives the shoulder girdle if the pelvis was held fixed (stalled)?

Sorry for intruding into this interesting debate.

[dap]

[quote name='Silky' timestamp='1412132552' post='10215861']
[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412125968' post='10215199']
pinhigh27-

Did you look at this abstract?

[url="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4033096"]http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/4033096[/url]

......

[color=#000000][size=4]In his book, [/size][/color][i]The Spinal Engine[/i][color=#000000][size=4], Gracovetsky sums up in a single sentence the role of the spine in locomotion:[/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=4]"Basically, the spinal engine converts the primitive lateral bend of the fish into [b]an axial torque that drives the pelvis[/b] and, at the same time, stabilizes the head." p162 [/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=4]According to Chapter 11, the legless man was born without legs and rests on the pelvis. I can't upload any more pictures, so, for now, buy the book or his DVD, which has a video of the legless man walking, if you want more details. One of the interesting findings was that, if the subject's spine was immobilized by a velcro band wrapped around his shoulders, he could not walk.[/size][/color]
[/quote]

Should not the objective of the pivot in golf be to drive the shoulder girdle, not the pelvis?
Or is it that the same muscle group of the spine engine would drives the shoulder girdle if the pelvis was held fixed (stalled)?

Sorry for intruding into this interesting debate.
[/quote]
Ultimately you would think it does come down to the shoulder girdle as that is where the arms are connected to but I guarantee if you don't use the hips at all you are not going to hit it very far.

[pinhigh27]

As far as I'm aware, all mammals that have ever been alive feature limbs.

 

Whales?

 

so perfect. lol.

 

:cheesy:

 

Whales have limbs....

[pick it up]

[quote name='bell812' timestamp='1412129324' post='10215587']
Pretty sure Richie picked Kelvin based on his results with Lucas. This would confirm Richie's statement of picking a teacher based on his results with a student, not his proffeciency as a player. Not sure how you could misinterpret that.
[/quote]


Pretty sure that's what I said. He picked Lucas based on his results in the gain in c.h.s. Never said he picked Kelvin because Lucas was a great player, i mean Lucas won the Arkansas open with 108 mph c.h.s. pre-Kelvin didn't he? Those gains are results...no? Richie liked the results obtained by Grant Hooper and Lucas and both increased their c.h.s. substantially and Richie wanted more c.h.s. to compete against those long straight better mechanics wise players...no? Grant Hooper is struggling golf game wise even though he now bombs it...so how should one interpret those results, he said he sucks as a golfer...words from his mouth on his youtube channel.

I don't think I misinterpreted that.

I believe someone as big as Richie with a paltry swing speed of 105 would prefer to gain c.h.s. and compete against the long hitters as I'm sure the rest of his game is in good condition from all the Morad instruction. Richie was after c.h.s. results and to believe otherwise is a bit naive especially in this thread.

[Silky]

Moreover, whales and dolphins locomotion is up/down of the spine, no lateral bending.

[Silky]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1412133252' post='10215927']
Ultimately you would think it does come down to the shoulder girdle as that is where the arms are connected to but I guarantee if you don't use the hips at all you are not going to hit it very far.
[/quote]
I am thinking of the second stage boosting after the hip power is used up or when the hips are decelerated.

[pick it up]

Clubhead speed rules!

[pick it up]

from Richies mouth about Kelvin's results as a teacher... Post #193... For me, watching Lucas and Grant improve by leaps and bounds, [color=#ff0000]especially with their club head speed[/color] answers the question of [i]can he take his knowledge and theories, apply it to a wide array of students' golf swings and will that show up in some sort of legitimate measurement?[/i]


Nuff said. Point proven. Thanks for playing.

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='Silky' timestamp='1412134101' post='10215963']
[b]Moreover, whales and dolphins locomotion is up/down of the spine, no lateral bending.[/b]
[/quote]

Exactly: flexion/extension, a characteristic mammals acquired to clear objects on land. All covered in chapter 1.

[northgolf]

[quote name='pick it up' timestamp='1412135680' post='10216065']
from Richies mouth about Kelvin's results as a teacher... Post #193... For me, watching Lucas and Grant improve by leaps and bounds, [color=#FF0000]especially with their club head speed[/color] answers the question of [i]can he take his knowledge and theories, apply it to a wide array of students' golf swings and will that show up in some sort of legitimate measurement?[/i]


Nuff said. Point proven. Thanks for playing.
[/quote]

Yes, you have proven that you are incomprehensible. Keep it up.

[pick it up]

[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1412137815' post='10216181']
[quote name='pick it up' timestamp='1412135680' post='10216065']
from Richies mouth about Kelvin's results as a teacher... Post #193... For me, watching Lucas and Grant improve by leaps and bounds, [color=#FF0000]especially with their club head speed[/color] answers the question of [i]can he take his knowledge and theories, apply it to a wide array of students' golf swings and will that show up in some sort of legitimate measurement?[/i]


Nuff said. Point proven. Thanks for playing.
[/quote]

Yes, you have proven that you are incomprehensible. Keep it up.
[/quote]


Only to someone that can't comprehend.

[pick it up]

Tod/Jeffy E.T. =
[b] [url="http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CDQQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scribd.com%2Fdoc%2F33392364%2FEncyclopedia-Texarkana&ei=m4crVMKWOMWqigLy4oGwAw&usg=AFQjCNEOZZnmLLu8fJDfztsn-eQtAjQGvA"][i]Encyclopedia Texarkana[/i][/url][/b]

[eightiron]

[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412097728' post='10212565']


Yes, the spine is not the primary engine of locomotion, walking or running. Mann is claiming that the spine engine theory says the spine is the primary engine of locomotion, walking or running. Mann is wrong, either through ignorance (in which case his opinions should be ignored) or lying (ditto).

[/quote]

This is the published work by the spine engine guy

Locomotion is generally perceived as being the function of the legs. The trunk is considered to be carried along in a more or less passive way. This popular hypothesis appears to have been accepted with little substantiation. In light of the numerous observations contradicting this view, we have proposed an alternative hypothesis in which the spine and its surrounding tissues comprise the basic engine of locomotion. This theory is consistent with available experimental data which suggest that the motion of the spine precedes that of the legs. Indeed, the variations in the power delivered to the pelvis by the spine are strikingly similar to, but slightly ahead of, the variation in power at the hip





^^^ isn't Mann saying the same thing