Kelvin Miyahira: pro or con

[pinhigh27]

It seems sort of weird that he advocates the internal rotation of the front leg so much. That's the easiest way to place stress on the knee and is the actual reason behind Tiger's knee troubles of the past, not some "snapping" concept that the typical commentator talks about.

[dap]

I think this is more like it....

[attachment=2437449:post-8005-0-74477500-1411987962.png]

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1411992378' post='10204453']
This Miyahara " second fire" puzzles me . Sadlowski was the poster child for the dismantling of the TPI K/Sequence , but when the real science facts came in from proper testing it became apparent that the hips were decelerating . [b]Then the " correct " version of the second fire became the translation of the pelvis forward and upward .[/b] Chip Johnson / Jeff Martin would know all the relevant facts on this .

From what I see and I can understand how Kelvin Miyahara aka the crack detective is adamant ,or at least his cognac drinkers are,
That the tailbone is going backwards , however the massive hole in this wrong headed theory , is that forward translation of the pelvic region provided there is enough will eliminate the tailbone going backwards as the hips rotate .

So you can't have that cookie called pelvic acceleration being the second fire and feed it to the butt crack at the same time !

Here is the poster child and there is hardly a whiff of pelvic translation forward and upwards
[/quote]


That's incorrect. Forward translation is not part of the "second fire". The "second fire" is the extension of both hips and knees (the "fearsome foursome") that typically begins about half way into the downswing. Hogan was one of the models in the article where Kelvin described the movements in detail in May 2011 (Sadlowski isn't included, although he certainly could be):

[url="http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2011-04-whats-a-hip-turn-part-2.html"]http://www.aroundhaw...urn-part-2.html[/url]


For convenience, this is the beginning of the relevant section:

[attachment=2437475:second fire.PNG]


Of course, Jamie has significant vertical movement of the pelvis (blue line): after raising during the takeaway, it drops until midway through the downswing (while he flexes at the knees and hips), then lifts upwards during the "second fire" in the second half of the downswing, when he extends the knees and hips:


[attachment=2437499:Pelvis positions - big.PNG]

[Tod Johnson]

Any Hogan "expert" should know that in its March 24, 1947 issue, [i]Life Magazine[/i] ran a four page article on Ben Hogan. Hogan was described as "the best player since Bobby Jones", meaning, of course, better than Byron Nelson, Snead or any of his other contemporaries. Included in the article is a swing sequence shot with a high speed camera and a global shutter (unlike the [i]Power Golf[/i] sequences photographed the following month at Augusta National). Check out that swing: does it remind anyone of a "folding deck chair"?:

[attachment=2437557:page 1.PNG]
[attachment=2437561:pages 2 and 3.PNG]
[attachment=2437559:page 4.PNG]


The swing sequence in a larger format:

[attachment=2437565:swing 1.PNG]
[attachment=2437567:swing 2.PNG]
[attachment=2437569:swing 3.PNG]

[Tod Johnson]

Of course, every Hogan "expert" knows that Macdonald Smith possessed one of the swings Hogan admired and, presumably, tried to emulate. Now, let me see, who does Smith's swing remind me of??? Oh, yeah...

[attachment=2437577:mac jam 1.PNG][attachment=2437579:mac jam 2.PNG][attachment=2437581:mac jam 3.PNG][attachment=2437583:jam mac 4.PNG][attachment=2437585:mac jam 5.PNG][attachment=2437587:mac jam 6.PNG][attachment=2437589:mac jam 7.PNG][attachment=2437591:mac jam 8.PNG][attachment=2437593:mac jam 9.PNG][attachment=2437595:mac jam 10.PNG][attachment=2437597:mac jam 11.PNG][attachment=2437599:mac jam 12.PNG][attachment=2437601:mac jam 13.PNG][attachment=2437603:mac jam 14.PNG][attachment=2437605:mac jam 15.PNG][attachment=2437607:mac jam 16.PNG]

[eightiron]

So is that second dip the unfolding deck chair part ? So did his hips decelerate rotational speed before impact? Do you really think this " second fire" is an intentional fire on his part , all of it ? Part of it ? Or is some or most of it a reaction to him having a steep shaft and him just backing out of it to find the ball .

[eightiron]

[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412010622' post='10206297']
Of course, every Hogan "expert" knows that Macdonald Smith possessed one of the swings Hogan admired and, presumably, tried to emulate. Now, let me see, who does Smith's swing remind me of??? Oh, yeah...

[attachment=2437577:mac jam 1.PNG][attachment=2437579:mac jam 2.PNG][attachment=2437581:mac jam 3.PNG][attachment=2437583:jam mac 4.PNG][attachment=2437585:mac jam 5.PNG][attachment=2437587:mac jam 6.PNG][attachment=2437589:mac jam 7.PNG][attachment=2437591:mac jam 8.PNG][attachment=2437593:mac jam 9.PNG][attachment=2437595:mac jam 10.PNG][attachment=2437597:mac jam 11.PNG][attachment=2437599:mac jam 12.PNG][attachment=2437601:mac jam 13.PNG][attachment=2437603:mac jam 14.PNG][attachment=2437605:mac jam 15.PNG][attachment=2437607:mac jam 16.PNG]
[/quote]

Couple of ugly swings right there ! I was under the assumption , which is what your doing , assuming , that hogan may have learned his pronation idea from Smith

[ej002]

[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412009901' post='10206201']
The swing sequence in a larger format:

[attachment=2437565:swing 1.PNG]
[attachment=2437567:swing 2.PNG]
[attachment=2437569:swing 3.PNG]
[/quote]


Jeffy - dont give us any of your red herrings. You know that swing is pre-secret. Look at your post of the only "post-secret / pre-accident swing". Where is his belt buckle?

http://jeffygolf.com/showthread.php?240-A-different-take-on-the-timing-of-Hogan-s-quot-secret-quot

[Tod Johnson]

Some more impacts with the belt buckle inside of the left heel:

[attachment=2437639:$(KGrHqN,!pcE8WsBfnqBBPPQ7yZ2YQ~~60_57.JPG]

[attachment=2437641:04e0cc6ecd590cf5_large.jpg]

[eightiron]

[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412009901' post='10206201']
Any Hogan "expert" should know that in its March 24, 1947 issue, [i]Life Magazine[/i] ran a four page article on Ben Hogan. Hogan was described as "the best player since Bobby Jones", meaning, of course, better than Byron Nelson, Snead or any of his other contemporaries. Included in the article is a swing sequence shot with a high speed camera and a global shutter (unlike the [i]Power Golf[/i] sequences photographed the following month at Augusta National). Check out that swing: does it remind anyone of a "folding deck chair"?:

[attachment=2437557:page 1.PNG]
[attachment=2437561:pages 2 and 3.PNG]
[attachment=2437559:page 4.PNG]


The swing sequence in a larger format:

[attachment=2437565:swing 1.PNG]
[attachment=2437567:swing 2.PNG]
[attachment=2437569:swing 3.PNG]
[/quote]

No actually that reminds me of Ben Hogan

[eightiron]

[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412011573' post='10206427']
Some more impacts with the belt buckle inside of the left heel:

[attachment=2437639:$(KGrHqN,!pcE8WsBfnqBBPPQ7yZ2YQ~~60_57.JPG]

[attachment=2437641:04e0cc6ecd590cf5_large.jpg]
[/quote]

Yeah he looks great , he gets way more forward and up then that poster boy sadlowski

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1412011514' post='10206423']
[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412009901' post='10206201']
The swing sequence in a larger format:

[attachment=2437565:swing 1.PNG]
[attachment=2437567:swing 2.PNG]
[attachment=2437569:swing 3.PNG]
[/quote]


Jeffy - dont give us any of your red herrings. You know that swing is pre-secret. [b]Look at your post of the only "post-secret / pre-accident swing". Where is his belt buckle?[/b]

[url="http://jeffygolf.com/showthread.php?240-A-different-take-on-the-timing-of-Hogan-s-quot-secret-quot"]http://jeffygolf.com...uot-secret-quot[/url]
[/quote]


Sadly, I don't have x-ray eyes.


[attachment=2437653:post-impact 1948 fw.PNG]

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1412010994' post='10206359']
[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412010622' post='10206297']
Of course, every Hogan "expert" knows that Macdonald Smith possessed one of the swings Hogan admired and, presumably, tried to emulate. Now, let me see, who does Smith's swing remind me of??? Oh, yeah...

[attachment=2437577:mac jam 1.PNG][attachment=2437579:mac jam 2.PNG][attachment=2437581:mac jam 3.PNG][attachment=2437583:jam mac 4.PNG][attachment=2437585:mac jam 5.PNG][attachment=2437587:mac jam 6.PNG][attachment=2437589:mac jam 7.PNG][attachment=2437591:mac jam 8.PNG][attachment=2437593:mac jam 9.PNG][attachment=2437595:mac jam 10.PNG][attachment=2437597:mac jam 11.PNG][attachment=2437599:mac jam 12.PNG][attachment=2437601:mac jam 13.PNG][attachment=2437603:mac jam 14.PNG][attachment=2437605:mac jam 15.PNG][attachment=2437607:mac jam 16.PNG]
[/quote]

Couple of ugly swings right there ! I was under the assumption , which is what your doing , assuming , that hogan may have learned his pronation idea from Smith
[/quote]


I guess you haven't read [i]Five Lessons[/i], then, where he pays Smith's swing the ultimate compliment. Some "expert".

[eightiron]

I had the book but Hogan didn't write about the spine engine theory and translating backwards looking like a folding deck chair , so I threw it in the trash can, I missed the bit on Smith

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1412012861' post='10206605']
I had the book but Hogan didn't write about the spine engine theory and translating backwards looking like a folding deck chair , so I threw it in the trash can, I missed the bit on Smith
[/quote]

8 you're clearly outclassed here. you can never hope to have 1/10th of the knowledge displayed in this thread, might as well just pack it up and start rereading hogan's 5 lessons again.

[size=1]not srs [/size]

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='verderraul' timestamp='1411874004' post='10197667']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1411485798' post='10169029']
Seriously I'd kill for 5 mph more swing speed.
[/quote]

What's your swing speed now ? You look like porking it far in your videos
[/quote]

114-116 range. I'd love to be in the 120s! Then I could hit it to the moon like Jim Venetos.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1412012861' post='10206605']
I had the book but Hogan didn't write about the spine engine theory and translating backwards looking like a folding deck chair , so I threw it in the trash can, I missed the bit on Smith
[/quote]

Eight you killing it in this thread lol.

[eightiron]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1412013372' post='10206653']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1412012861' post='10206605']
I had the book but Hogan didn't write about the spine engine theory and translating backwards looking like a folding deck chair , so I threw it in the trash can, I missed the bit on Smith
[/quote]

Eight you killing it in this thread lol.
[/quote]

Well , I knew if I kept winding this 20 handicap windbag up he'd admit he's Jeff Martin

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1412014498' post='10206817']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1412013372' post='10206653']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1412012861' post='10206605']
I had the book but Hogan didn't write about the spine engine theory and translating backwards looking like a folding deck chair , so I threw it in the trash can, I missed the bit on Smith
[/quote]

Eight you killing it in this thread lol.
[/quote]

Well , I knew if I kept winding this 20 handicap windbag up he'd admit he's Jeff Martin
[/quote]

lol gotta love it. can debate the intricacies of hogan's pelvis but can't break 90

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1412011680' post='10206449']
[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1412009901' post='10206201']
Any Hogan "expert" should know that in its March 24, 1947 issue, [i]Life Magazine[/i] ran a four page article on Ben Hogan. Hogan was described as "the best player since Bobby Jones", meaning, of course, better than Byron Nelson, Snead or any of his other contemporaries. Included in the article is a swing sequence shot with a high speed camera and a global shutter (unlike the [i]Power Golf[/i] sequences photographed the following month at Augusta National). Check out that swing: does it remind anyone of a "folding deck chair"?:

[attachment=2437557:page 1.PNG]
[attachment=2437561:pages 2 and 3.PNG]
[attachment=2437559:page 4.PNG]


The swing sequence in a larger format:

[attachment=2437565:swing 1.PNG]
[attachment=2437567:swing 2.PNG]
[attachment=2437569:swing 3.PNG]
[/quote]

[b]No actually that reminds me of Ben Hogan[/b]
[/quote]


Excellent!

OK, so where exactly is the "[color=#282828]translating backwards looking like a folding deck chair"? No one is arguing that Hogan doesn't move further left, but, your claims about Sadlowski are Jeff Mann-esque.[/color]


[attachment=2437805:j b 2 2.PNG]
[attachment=2437807:j b 3 2.PNG]
[attachment=2437809:j b 5 2.PNG]
[attachment=2437811:j b 6 2.PNG]

[eightiron]

Yeah that guy reminds me of ben hogan , as in the one on the left and looks pre secret stuff , the guy on the right looks like sadlowski backing out of it with his heel/ foot spinning backwards and his crack going backwards

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1412019809' post='10207325']
Yeah that guy reminds me of ben hogan , as in the one on the left and looks pre secret stuff , [b]the guy on the right looks like sadlowski backing out of it[/b] with his foot spinning backwards and his crack going backwards
[/quote]


What, exactly, is "backing out"?

[RichieHunt]

[quote name='russc' timestamp='1411953546' post='10202667']
Richie
Back to questions about Kelvin's instruction.I believe that you stated that you had a Boditrak pressure system or the equivalent p[size=4]ressure system.[/size]
After your sessions with Kelvin ,did you notice any difference in the weight distribution at your feet.
[/quote]

I never said I had the BodiTrak. I tried it out twice. Once at the PGA Show and once with Brendan Kennedy.

Problem with the BodiTrak is the pressure mat and the video are not quite properly in sync. Think it's a great idea and you can get the gist of what's going on, but I stopped bothering with it unless it gets in sync.

I've also only worked with Kelvin for 6 weeks. I think that is too early to tell what the lasting impact it will have on measurements of my swing.



RH

[spider]

Jeffy, Jeffmann and Jeff Martin. same guys? Serious question I can't recall.

[TheWoat]

Any of those guys responsible for "Hogan's Angle"?

[Tod Johnson]

If Sadlowski were "backing out of it" with "his crack going backwards", why does his upper body COM move left from P3 to P8 and the lower body COM move left from P4 to P9?

[attachment=2437843:com analysis combined.PNG]


Full analysis here:

http://www.clubmakerscalculator.com/golfbiomechanics/a-contrast-in-weight-transfer/pdf/JamieSCOM.pdf

[RichieHunt]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1411951698' post='10202441']
I wouldn't constrain my definition of proficiency to threshold numbers as there are always mitigating factors. In fact, your description of a guy who hits it straight every time but with "only" 100 mph SS sounds like a great description of a 65 year old Moe Norman or a whole bunch of guys on the Champions tour![/quote]

Except I've seen this with teachers that are in their 30's. Hit it well, can shoot under par frequently and the swing 'looks' nice, but as far as producing club head speed, they can't do it.


[quote]When I met Como back in '06 he was a scratch player, had a really nice swing and hit it solid. I'm sure he's learned a ton since the (he's clearly exhibited a high thirst for knowledge) and I wouldn't hesitate to take a lesson from him even though he's never played on any tour (that I know of). There are also a bunch of GD "top 100" guys that I'd never spend my money on for a lesson, simply because I don't like their philosophy, or results.
[/quote]

I think that's part of the issue. You're going to end up making judgment upon a teacher based on the *look* of their swing.

Imagine if there was a teacher that really knew the golf swing and had amazing success with students and you looked at his swing and it looked like Mark McCumber’s swing. But, the instructor hits it quite well despite the unique motion. My guess is that unless he had tournament records stacked up…despite having amazing success with students and being able to hit the ball very well…the mere ugliness of his swing action would cause people to dismiss his expertise in teaching.

To me, that's just crazy thinking. And I am far more concerned about how well the students improve under the instructor. What an instructor's swing looks like and how well they get it to perform has zero influence on my ability to improve under their tutelage.







RH

[RichieHunt]

[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1411953649' post='10202681']
I think you are intentionally obfuscating and making this much more difficult than it needs to be. Sure, different people have different definitions of proficiency, but in no event would KM be deemed "proficient" by any sane definition.[/QUOTE]

How would you know?

Have you ever seen him play golf?


[quote]Similarly, any teacher who has played at web.com level or higher or even had success at lower pro levels or even just those who could maintain a plus cap for a while with some tournament rounds included would be deemed proficient.[/quote]

Then why do people ignore the rebuttal that we've got Lucas Wald's swing and he's played at the Web.com level and won the Arkansas state open?

Is that not proficient enough?

To me, it just comes off as judgment has already been made in your mind and I think it curbs your ability to possibly learn about the golf swing. For whatever reason, you're dismissing Lucas Wald's proficiency and have already deemed that Kelvin is in now way proficient despite never seen him hitting a shot in golf.

It's a clash of logic.

The entire 'demonstrate a high level of proficiency' is too ambiguous and too subjective for me to worry about. I would rather focus on if what the teacher says makes sense and how well the teacher improves his students' ballstriking.

[quote]I am not saying that being proficient necessarily means anything, but simply hiding behind the fact that it might be hard to decide whether someone is proficient in certain situations seems like grasping at straws in an attempt to avoid the discussion.
[/quote]

I'm not avoiding the discussion at all. I've repeatedly stated that I can understand why golfers want to see an instructor perform the mechanics they are teaching. I just think that the high level of proficiency argument is so subjective that it leads to contradictory reasoning and is basically an exercise in subjectivity.

We've already got you claiming that Kelvin is in no way proficient, but you've never played golf with him nor have you seen him hit balls.

I can't remember who said, but I've heard it many times before...there are touring professionals that have said they won't talk to a swing coach unless that swing coach could beat them in a round of golf. I've heard people state that Tiger should not hire a swing coach that can't beat him in a round of golf.

Their 'level of proficiency' is far far different from yours. And mine is different from yours.

I think trying to act like there is some sort of universal standard of 'high level of proficiency' is just something that doesn't exist.






RH

[ej002]

[quote name='spider' timestamp='1412020776' post='10207411']
Jeffy, Jeffmann and Jeff Martin. same guys? Serious question I can't recall.
[/quote]

Jeffy = Jeff Martin. Kelvin's cognac guzzler
Jeff Mann = someone else. Jeffys rival.

Both banned from here - except when they do their best SVS impressions

[dap]

You can cherry pick photos of Sadlowski with his belt buckle a little more over his left ankle and Hogan with his buckle a little less over his left ankle and attempt to make them look similar but the truth of the matter is Hogan had about 6 inches of lateral movement more than Sadlowski. Even 4 inches is a lot and is enough to prevent the spinning out of the left foot and dragging back of the left leg which Hogan doesn't do.

Cherry picking photos is a sneaky tactic used in golf debate. The slanted pic of Hogan to try to show his belt buckle well inside his ankle is about as sneaky as they come.