Kelvin Miyahira: pro or con

[KevCarter]

[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1411644658' post='10180403']
Nobody has posted a remotely close to usable angle to settle y'all's discussion.

Here you go

[media=]http://youtu.be/4-YOe8f89Qg[/media]

[media=]http://youtu.be/1eCTOT_A_Mw[/media]
[/quote]

When I had to quit playing 6 years ago, I was working hard on that hip movement. Love it. Have you studied VJ Trolio's book, the final piece of the Hogan puzzle, or something like that? I love that book, and now that I have 2 new hips, I can't wait to see if I can do it when I attempt hitting balls next spring!

Always enjoy your posts Pro, and when you and our friend Eight explain your ideas, whether you agree or not, I learn stuff!

Kevin

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='kevcarter' timestamp='1411658581' post='10181645']
I'm a little leery in jumping into the "Witch Hunt of the Week Forum."

Years ago I purchased the Impact Snap device from Kelvin. Love it. Kelvin was nothing but a complete gentleman, and all he wanted to do was help me learn. Kelvin has a lot of supporters and helps a lot of people for FREE with his great articles.

Do I follow his teaching? No. My mind isn't wired in the same way as his, and I'm too lazy to do the work.

Does that mean I think he's a bad teacher? Absolutely not. The fact Richie is so involved with Kelvin should open a lot of eyes. Richie has studied everything out there and is truly a student of the game, and one who we we be silly to ignore.

Why can't folks just understand that there is no right and wrong in golf, it's what works for you. Everybody's body and mind are so different from one another. If we could just take the positives we find in each teacher, the ideas that work for us, wouldn't we all become better players and teachers?

So many posters in here that I respect, I just wish we could all try to find more common ground and help each other rather than beat people up.

Kevin
[/quote]
How did the impact snap device help you.Have the effects been lasting

[KevCarter]

[quote name='russc' timestamp='1411681874' post='10184141']
[quote name='kevcarter' timestamp='1411658581' post='10181645']
I'm a little leery in jumping into the "Witch Hunt of the Week Forum."

Years ago I purchased the Impact Snap device from Kelvin. Love it. Kelvin was nothing but a complete gentleman, and all he wanted to do was help me learn. Kelvin has a lot of supporters and helps a lot of people for FREE with his great articles.

Do I follow his teaching? No. My mind isn't wired in the same way as his, and I'm too lazy to do the work.

Does that mean I think he's a bad teacher? Absolutely not. The fact Richie is so involved with Kelvin should open a lot of eyes. Richie has studied everything out there and is truly a student of the game, and one who we we be silly to ignore.

Why can't folks just understand that there is no right and wrong in golf, it's what works for you. Everybody's body and mind are so different from one another. If we could just take the positives we find in each teacher, the ideas that work for us, wouldn't we all become better players and teachers?

So many posters in here that I respect, I just wish we could all try to find more common ground and help each other rather than beat people up.

Kevin
[/quote]
How did the impact snap device help you.Have the effects been lasting
[/quote]

Russ, it taught me how to fully release Accumulatir #2 through impact without throwaway. Fit perfectly with my teacher Lynn Blake. I had to quit playing a short time after getting it, so I can't tell you if it's long lasting, but don't know why it wouldn't.

Kevin

[Tod Johnson]

Took a crack (pun intended) at tracing Hogan's sacrum movement.

[Tod Johnson]

Nicklaus had a lot more movement away from the target.

[ej002]

Those cracks are pretty and all, but I think eight specifically said from p5.5 to p8. So in that respect from p4-6 doesn't matter much does it? Hence the reason for the GIF above.

[Fort Worth Pro]

[quote name='kevcarter' timestamp='1411680729' post='10184043']
[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1411644658' post='10180403']
Nobody has posted a remotely close to usable angle to settle y'all's discussion.

Here you go

[media=]http://youtu.be/4-YOe8f89Qg[/media]

[media=]http://youtu.be/1eCTOT_A_Mw[/media]
[/quote]

When I had to quit playing 6 years ago, I was working hard on that hip movement. Love it. Have you studied VJ Trolio's book, the final piece of the Hogan puzzle, or something like that? I love that book, and now that I have 2 new hips, I can't wait to see if I can do it when I attempt hitting balls next spring!

Always enjoy your posts Pro, and when you and our friend Eight explain your ideas, whether you agree or not, I learn stuff!

Kevin
[/quote]

I don't know if I actually disagree with eight here. Technically I think the sacrum works backward but can't imagine ever teaching that. Extension of the hips and releasing the tailbone is really important. What I am seeing though is if your right shoulder stays externally rotated and your left internally rotated as you turn the core it is going to be very hard, if not impossible, to stay in flex ion to long.

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1411688559' post='10184665']
Those cracks are pretty and all, but I think eight specifically said from p5.5 to p8. So in that respect from p4-6 doesn't matter much does it? Hence the reason for the GIF above.
[/quote]

Kelvin is talking about from P4 to P7, which is where the conversation started, so that's what I looked at. There wasn't a P7 frame on the Hogan video. P7 in the Nicklaus video is pretty much the same as P6, IIRC.

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1411688646' post='10184675']
[quote name='kevcarter' timestamp='1411680729' post='10184043']
[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1411644658' post='10180403']
Nobody has posted a remotely close to usable angle to settle y'all's discussion.

Here you go

[media=]http://youtu.be/4-YOe8f89Qg[/media]

[media=]http://youtu.be/1eCTOT_A_Mw[/media]
[/quote]

When I had to quit playing 6 years ago, I was working hard on that hip movement. Love it. Have you studied VJ Trolio's book, the final piece of the Hogan puzzle, or something like that? I love that book, and now that I have 2 new hips, I can't wait to see if I can do it when I attempt hitting balls next spring!

Always enjoy your posts Pro, and when you and our friend Eight explain your ideas, whether you agree or not, I learn stuff!

Kevin
[/quote]

I don't know if I actually disagree with eight here. [b]Technically I think the sacrum works backward but can't imagine ever teaching that.[/b] Extension of the hips and releasing the tailbone is really important. What I am seeing though is if your right shoulder stays externally rotated and your left internally rotated as you turn the core it is going to be very hard, if not impossible, to stay in flex ion to long.
[/quote]

I think the idea is to avoid pushing the sacrum towards the target, which can inhibit rotation. Some players can do that without losing rotation, like Charlie Wi, but he's an exception.

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1411688559' post='10184665']
[b]Those cracks are pretty and all, but I think eight specifically said from p5.5 to p8. [/b] So in that respect from p4-6 doesn't matter much does it? Hence the reason for the GIF above.
[/quote]

Uh, not exactly...


[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1411642179' post='10180299']
[b]And let's just back track to the notion that the tail bone is going backwards from the top of the swing .[/b] Obviously that is not happening . If your trying to pigeon hole Hogan into the KM theory , you may want to re check it. [b]As evidence even in the early mid downswing his tail bone is not going backwards[/b]
[/quote]

[dairic]

a** path or crack track is sexy and all, but does it make sense to break down in a million pieces the components of an athletic movement like sadlowski's in an attempt to replicate?

To increase your athletic abilities, might it be better to work on increasing range of motion in all joints, overall flexibility, strengthen posterior chain and grip strength?

[ROH1]

So, I never thought I would consider trying any KM stuff - primarily because of jeffy's site. I just find what he does a total turn off. Maybe that isn't fair to KM, but seriously, he should consider distancing himself from that site.

Serious question. Like many of us, I'm just a frustrated weekend player. What is intriguing about KM's stuff is that it does appear to be different. You can't debate that his student's swings look different and a bit unconventional. Well, trying to look conventional has only got me so far.

So, can you do his stuff if you don't have the time to read and understand all the articles?
Instead of a ton of micro moves, can he work with a weekend player on macro moves to simply advance their game?
Is video interaction realistic?
Where does Lucas teach?
Is there any chance if I started now that I would be able to make marked improvement by next season considering I'm in the northeast and the season is ending.

[northgolf]

[quote name='ROH1' timestamp='1411693572' post='10185077']
So, can you do his stuff if you don't have the time to read and understand all the articles?
[/quote]

If you don't have the time to read and understand the articles, then you don't have time to do the practice necessary to implement what is written in the articles. In fact, you probably don't have the time to practice to implement any real swing overhaul even if you are coached 1/2 hour a week as you will need time to practice between coaching (2 or 3 time a week at the range, minimum).

Intent is the easy part, actually doing what you intend is hard. I know - I practice 2 to 3 times a week and after a month I find I am maybe 1/3 of the way towards implementing a key change. I've been working since Aug 7 on not collapsing my left side at the top of my backswing and I did a vid on Monday: I'm better but my left knee is still way to far bent and back.

Real change take real commitment.

[eightiron]

The reason I never used those 2 videos of Hogan or attempted to draw lines on them is simply because the camera moves during the swing a lot . You can doctor those lines all you want , they are junk in presenting a fact. I stand by my observation that Hogan s crack moved forwards after p4 and after hips begin unwinding to about p 6 the backside is going more straight across and then forwards .
Case in point would be Geoffs student that did not have the extension of hogan from p 6 onwards and yet his crack is sideways from p6

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1411699297' post='10185653']
[b]The reason I never used those 2 videos of Hogan or attempted to draw lines on them is simply because the camera moves during the swing a lot . You can doctor those lines all you want , they are junk in presenting a fact.[/b] I stand by my observation that Hogan s crack moved forwards after p4 and after hips begin unwinding to about p 6 the backside is going more straight across and then forwards .
Case in point would be Geoffs student that did not have the extension of hogan from p 6 onwards and yet his crack is sideways from p6
[/quote]

That's why I outlined several stationary markers and re-aligned each frame to make sure the orientation was always the same. Nothing has been "doctored" and your accusations are completely unfounded. Anyone can duplicate what I did and find that it is perfectly sound. Please show us with some factual evidence that my observations are wrong and yours are right.

[Tod Johnson]

Oh, and I'm talking about Hogan and Nicklaus, not one of Geoff Jones's students. How they swing is completely off-topic and belongs in another thread.

[dairic]

CrackTrack for the slice student. There's a noticeable loop-dee-loo in the downswing. After impact his shirt gets in the way so it's hard to say but it looks like it's moving forwards after that.

[attachment=2433703:cracktrack.gif]

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1411701417' post='10185849']
CrackTrack for the slice student. There a noticeable loop-dee-loo in the downswing. After impact his shirt gets in the way so it's hard to say but it looks like it's moving forwards after that.

[attachment=2433703:cracktrack.gif]
[/quote]
That's some solid a**-trakin right there.

[northgolf]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1411701417' post='10185849']
CrackTrack for the slice student. There a noticeable loop-dee-loo in the downswing. After impact his shirt gets in the way so it's hard to say but it looks like it's moving forwards after that.

[attachment=2433703:cracktrack.gif]
[/quote]

LOL, I can't wait for Chambliss to do a crack track of a pro during a tournament broadcast.

[eightiron]

So you realigned shots off a moving camera and call them facts!!! You are looking at one dimension from an oblique back angle that has one point of reference , it actually is not useful except for a few frames with parallax in play .The only true angle is the overhead , unfortunately there is none of Hogan . So what evidence have you presented that Hogans tailbone went backwards the Entire time from p 4 to impact ?.......Blanket statements representing KM are clearly not gospel .
Now you may indeed find sadlowski moves his backwards the whole way but as I said he backs out of it a ton and his belt line is way back from Hogan .

[JPGolf FL]

Really, I can't say a**?

[dairic]

[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1411701581' post='10185867']
Really, I can't say a**?
[/quote]

a** uming you could say a**, you should still a** pire to higher english otherwise you'd be an a** wipe!

[eightiron]

[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1411700748' post='10185783']
Oh, and I'm talking about Hogan and Nicklaus, not one of Geoff Jones's students. How they swing is completely off-topic and belongs in another thread.
[/quote]

Really , I thought it was sadlowkis "back up with the steep shaft and bent left arm to find the grid " v Ben Hogan 9 majors . I didn't know Nicklaus was in on it , but I get why you want him to prove the bullchit KM theory of butt crack going backwards

. As far as Geoffs student , there a a lot of keen observers that say he was pretty close to Hogan .

Perhaps you could use this photo of Hogan to spread the butt crack backwards theory

[dairic]

Stare at this for a few minutes to balance out the fact that you've all been staring at men's asses for too long now

[attachment=2433709:a**.jpg]

[ej002]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1411701417' post='10185849']
CrackTrack for the slice student. There's a noticeable loop-dee-loo in the downswing. After impact his shirt gets in the way so it's hard to say but it looks like it's moving forwards after that.

[attachment=2433703:cracktrack.gif]
[/quote]

Question - is the sacrum the seam of the pant-crack? Or it is a bit closer (but not quite) centered between the hip joints (def some where in between) the minor loopty-do is so small that it could be explained away with more accurate dots. Especially Bc at p6 he is essentially sideways as 8 points out.

[ej002]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1411702737' post='10185941']
Stare at this for a few minutes to balance out the fact that you've all been staring at men's asses for too long now

[attachment=2433709:a**.jpg]
[/quote]

I want to inspect Her sacrum

Back to spider - he set more left of hogan has less lateral drive - and less extension but his pivot is much closer to hogan than Nicklaus or Platinum Kim Jong Il. And as we can see from D's dots his crack back is whack

[dairic]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1411703185' post='10185989']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1411701417' post='10185849']
CrackTrack for the slice student. There's a noticeable loop-dee-loo in the downswing. After impact his shirt gets in the way so it's hard to say but it looks like it's moving forwards after that.

[attachment=2433703:cracktrack.gif]
[/quote]

Question - is the sacrum the seam of the pant-crack? Or it is a bit closer (but not quite) centered between the hip joints (def some where in between) the minor loopty-do is so small that it could be explained away with more accurate dots. Especially Bc at p6 he is essentially sideways as 8 points out.
[/quote]

I was aiming for a visible point in between the cheeks. The problem with aiming for the centre of the hip joints is that it's difficult to accurately target in each frame because it's buried inside the body somewhere. Maybe it would make a difference, but I wouldn't expect it to be different. I really don't care either way because I don't think it would improve my golf game in any way shape or form.

[dap]

Regardless of where the crack is,Hogan's entire pelvic area makes a significant lateral move towards the target whereas Sadlowski's pelvis remains in the same area . Hogan proves that you can make a lateral move while still rotating the hips. KM prefers rotation to lateral motion and that's fine but don't try to fit Hogan into the model.

[ej002]

Your like the ref here - did jeffy grease your palms for those cockeyed dots? Lol. Kidding - thx / minute to nothing either way. Pointless

[eightiron]

Jeff Mann makes a compelling argument against the spine engine theory . In particular I agree with him regarding the lateral bend of the trail side



imperfectgolfer
Global Moderator




Posts: 3,031

The KM-groupies love the "spine engine" theory May 6, 2014 at 11:58pm
Quote
Post by imperfectgolfer on May 6, 2014 at 11:58pm
See this KM review article on "lateral bend" as it pertains to the spine engine theory - www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2010-04-spine-engine-swing-lateral-bend.html

KM has drunken the Gracovetsky kool-aid and he wrongly believes that lateral bend (combined with lordosis) is necessary to induce a rotary motion of the pelvis in the early downswing. When does KM state that lateral bend must start?

KM posted this image.



This is what KM then states-: "Lateral bend, although it seems simple, is really quite complicated. Simplistically, it is just a side bending like the picture above. But add in that this must be done at a while you're at the top of your backswing with shoulders turned, while in the absence of downswing shoulder rotation (if for a brief moment), while your spine is being bent to the right, your shoulder is pulled down behind you while increasing lumbar lordosis (explained later) and while the rotator cuff muscles are externally rotating the arm. Now this seems very complicated. So when does lateral bending occur? It should start during transition."

The bold-highlighted statement claims that lateral bending must start at the transition. However, that doesn't really happen in professional golfers.



Note that there is no lateral bending of the mid-upper spine during Gary Woodland's early downswing (image 3 is at P5).

Here is Jamie Sadlowski



Here are capture images.



Image 1 is at P4.5 - start of the transition; and image 2 is at P5 (end of the hip squaring phase).

Note that there is no lateral bending of Jamie Sadlowski's mid-upper spine during his early downswing.

KM is misinterpreting what is happening in professional golfers and he is also misrepresenting reality.

KM posted this image of Ryo Ishikawa during the transition.



KM wrongly claims that the curved red line represents lateral bending. However, that's obviously not true! Lateral bending refers to the spine and not the right lateral side of the torso, which can become more curved if a golfer develops dynamic torso-pelvic separation at the start of the downswing due to the pelvis rotating before the upper torso rotates or if the right clavicle becomes depressed. KM also wrote regarding that image-: "From this view, we can see that his shoulder has dropped AND his right side is arching away from the ball.". That biomechanical phenomenon is simply due to the fact that RI is depressing his right clavicle and dropping his right shoulder, and it doesn't imply any lateral bending of the mid-upper spine.

Now, view this KM you-tube video demonstration.



At 21-25 seconds, KM wrongly claims that the interfacet joints are not connected.

However, here is a capture image from his video - captured at the 21 second time point (before KM applies lateral bend and lordosis).



The red arrows show that the inferior articular processes are fully engaged with the superior articular processes of the vertebra directly below.

I also cannot understand how KM can be applying lateral bend in his demonstration when he is not bending the mid-upper spine sideways. He is simply pulling the spine backwards.

KM also makes some wild claims in his article on lordosis - www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2010-05-second-magical-key-to-the-spine-engine-lumbar-lordosis.html

KM wildly claims-: "The key is in varying the amount of lumbar lordosis during the swing. Also we are combining the lateral bend with the lumbar lordosis to set the spine gears in place. Any disconnecting of the gears at any point prior to contact will produce an adverse swing reaction (most likely, a hip or shoulder stall) that will cause other problems to occur such as casting, flipping, lunging, jumping, etc. "

I think that is wrongheaded to claim that "casting, flipping, lunging, jumping" is due to disengagement of the interfacet joints between the lumbar vertebra.

KM posted this image of Tiger Woods.



KM is wrongly claiming that the red curve represents lordosis. However, he is obviously wrong! Lordosis refers to the lumbar spine (which one cannot see in that image) and it refers to increased lumbar spine extension in the sagittal plane. That red curve is simply the side-bend of Tiger's left lateral mid-torso that is due to the differential degree of rotation of the upper torso (shoulders) relative to the lower torso (pelvis).

KM then posted this image of Tom Agricola.



KM then stated-: "Remember the left side of Tom Agricola’s backswing looked like a straight line? This is due to the lack of lumbar lordosis.

He is wrong yet again! One cannot see his lumbar spine to assess his degree of lumbar spine lordosis in the sagittal plane. The "straightening" of the left side of his torso is simply due to the fact that he has only turned his upper torso (shoulders) as much as his lower torso (pelvis).

I think that KM is out-of-his-depth when it comes to human biomechanics, and it is not surprising that he harbors this wild belief when he stated-: "Another contributor to spine compression and stiffness can occur from dehydration. Yes, that’s right. Dehydration from lack of drinking water (no, soda, coffee, tea or adult beverages don’t count as water) can also contribute to lack of spinal mobility as well as non-optimal health.

Jeff.
Last Edit: May 7, 2014 at 12:08am by imperfectgolfer


Read more: http://newtongolfinstitute.proboards.com/thread/531/groupies-love-spine-engine-theory#ixzz3EOJColTC