Kelvin Miyahira: pro or con

[ej002]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1411705069' post='10186111']
Regardless of where the crack is,Hogan's entire pelvic area makes a significant lateral move towards the target whereas Sadlowski's pelvis remains in the same area . Hogan proves that you can make a lateral move while still rotating the hips. KM prefers rotation to lateral motion and that's fine but don't try to fit Hogan into the model.
[/quote]
GJ likes rotation - spiders doesn't go back but a hair if anything. Is the point that sadlowski never went forward or that it actually goes back? I don't think you can extend with them staying in one area. Or it's really late extension, as a result of the pivot - rather than extension driving the pivot.

[dap]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1411706042' post='10186169']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1411705069' post='10186111']
Regardless of where the crack is,Hogan's entire pelvic area makes a significant lateral move towards the target whereas Sadlowski's pelvis remains in the same area . Hogan proves that you can make a lateral move while still rotating the hips. KM prefers rotation to lateral motion and that's fine but don't try to fit Hogan into the model.
[/quote]
GJ likes rotation - spiders doesn't go back but a hair if anything. Is the point that sadlowski never went forward or that it actually goes back? I don't think you can extend with them staying in one area. Or it's really late extension, as a result of the pivot - rather than extension driving the pivot.
[/quote]
Maybe you can extend if you drag the left foot back and around.

[ej002]

Isnt that what they kind of do with the spin out left foot? So they prob even jumping - like a screwdriver jumping back and away. That is weird


Btw
http://newtongolfinstitute.proboards.com/thread/494/defines-causes-drive-release-action

The drive hold is a draggy block release? Really ? And your going to claim Hogan on that too with three right hands? Early supinating and holding. Sounds like "kel"ly green stuff. Sadlowski left forearm don't roll so no ones' should? Everyone with a bent left arm? Jump screwdriver away move LMAO this is real? You guys are letting jeff Mann tear it up?

[dap]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1411707904' post='10186255']
Isnt that what they kind of do with the spin out left foot? So they prob even jumping - like a screwdriver jumping back and away. That is weird


Btw
http://newtongolfinstitute.proboards.com/thread/494/defines-causes-drive-release-action

The drive hold is a draggy block release? Really ? And your going to claim Hogan on that too with three right hands? Early supinating and holding. Sounds like "kel"ly green stuff. Sadlowski left forearm don't roll?
[/quote]

If you rotate the hips without any lateral motion I think the left foot has to not just spin around CCW but also drag back and behind you. To be fair a lot of good players do this although not to the ridiculous extent that some KM students exhibit.

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1411703185' post='10185989']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1411701417' post='10185849']
CrackTrack for the slice student. There's a noticeable loop-dee-loo in the downswing. After impact his shirt gets in the way so it's hard to say but it looks like it's moving forwards after that.

[attachment=2433703:cracktrack.gif]
[/quote]

Question - is the sacrum the seam of the pant-crack? Or it is a bit closer (but not quite) centered between the hip joints (def some where in between) the minor loopty-do is so small that it could be explained away with more accurate dots. Especially Bc at p6 he is essentially sideways as 8 points out.
[/quote]

little higher up, coccyx is right where a tail would be if we had them. centered between the hip joints would be a good measure

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1411701578' post='10185865']
So you realigned shots off a moving camera and call them facts!!! You are looking at one dimension from an oblique back angle that has one point of reference , it actually is not useful except for a few frames with parallax in play .The only true angle is the overhead , unfortunately there is none of Hogan . [b]So what evidence have you presented that Hogans tailbone went backwards the Entire time from p 4 to impact ? [/b][/quote]


Where did I say "the entire time to impact"? It could, but I didn't say that. I posted three stills adjusted for the moving camera that show it has moved away from the target during the downswing. All you have is your opinion.


[quote]......[b]Blanket statements representing KM are clearly not gospel .[/b][/quote]


Now there is a nice, big juicy straw man. I never made any blanket statements on this topic and I don't recall anyone else making them. You brought up Hogan and said he didn't do it and I produced evidence that he did. Of, course, the list is endless of great players who pull the sacrum away from the target during the downswing. In fact, Tiger drove it the worst when he stopped doing that for awhile with Haney. If you don't like that pattern, fine. I don't care. Just be honest about what you really know and what is opinion.

[eightiron]

[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1411740305' post='10188111']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1411701578' post='10185865']
So you realigned shots off a moving camera and call them facts!!! You are looking at one dimension from an oblique back angle that has one point of reference , it actually is not useful except for a few frames with parallax in play .The only true angle is the overhead , unfortunately there is none of Hogan . [b]So what evidence have you presented that Hogans tailbone went backwards the Entire time from p 4 to impact ? [/b][/quote]


Where did I say "the entire time to impact"? It could, but I didn't say that. I posted three stills adjusted for the moving camera that show it has moved away from the target during the downswing. All you have is your opinion.



[/quote]


Here you go , it's what you claimed!!

eightiron, on 24 September 2014 - 11:20 PM, said:
^^^^ so your saying that it's well past impact , what like a micro second . Is his tailbone going forwards or backwards from say p6 to p8 ? The point of the belt line going forward and up past his left ankle/ foot is proof to me that his tailbone is not going away from the target

Here he is at impact , so you are going to tell me his tailbone goes backwards


Yep. His belt buckle isn't anywhere close to his left foot at impact, let alone past it. The tailbone moves towards the target in the backswing, away from the target in the downswing, and can be carried back towards the target in the follow-through.



^^^^ yes I brought up hogan v sadlowski, you wanted some debate and got slaughtered . Your so called lines are flawed with parallax issue and a reference point which becomes useless except for a couple of frames , that's why when I used the back angle on hogan I only used a few frames , referencing the point after that is plain silly . And even the back angle on hogan showed it is not moving backwards from the top of the backswing . I especially like the adjusted part of line drawing . Yep I'll stick to my opinion

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1411705069' post='10186111']
Regardless of where the crack is,Hogan's entire pelvic area makes a significant lateral move towards the target whereas Sadlowski's pelvis remains in the same area . Hogan proves that you can make a lateral move while still rotating the hips. KM prefers rotation to lateral motion and that's fine but don't try to fit Hogan into the model.
[/quote]

Actually, most of Hogan's lateral movement, at least during his playing days, was from setting up with his hips further away from the target than most. At impact he was not very far left.

[Tod Johnson]

If you want an example of a player with a lot of lateral movement and rotates well, look no further than Charlie Wi:

[eightiron]

Oh boy ^^^^ and you can't fathom how that nukes your tailbone junk science

[Hstead]

#Tod - maybe I am confused, I am not the most knowledgeable about the swing, KM's stuff, or Hogan like some here are, but to my layman eyes, it appears Hogan and Snead both have their belt buckles in line with the ball at impact, meaning they are moving toward the target with their lower bodies and no where near spinning out and back away from the target. I have always found this contradictory to what I have read from KM, but maybe I don't understand. To me, Hogan and Snead are doing what KM said not to.

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1411741927' post='10188247']
[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1411740305' post='10188111']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1411701578' post='10185865']
So you realigned shots off a moving camera and call them facts!!! You are looking at one dimension from an oblique back angle that has one point of reference , it actually is not useful except for a few frames with parallax in play .The only true angle is the overhead , unfortunately there is none of Hogan . [b]So what evidence have you presented that Hogans tailbone went backwards the Entire time from p 4 to impact ? [/b][/quote]


Where did I say "the entire time to impact"? It could, but I didn't say that. I posted three stills adjusted for the moving camera that show it has moved away from the target during the downswing. All you have is your opinion.



[/quote]


Here you go , it's what you claimed!!

eightiron, on 24 September 2014 - 11:20 PM, said:
^^^^ so your saying that it's well past impact , what like a micro second . Is his tailbone going forwards or backwards from say p6 to p8 ? The point of the belt line going forward and up past his left ankle/ foot is proof to me that his tailbone is not going away from the target

Here he is at impact , so you are going to tell me his tailbone goes backwards


Yep. His belt buckle isn't anywhere close to his left foot at impact, let alone past it. The tailbone moves towards the target in the backswing, away from the target in the downswing, and can be carried back towards the target in the follow-through.



^^^^ yes I brought up hogan v sadlowski, [b]you wanted some debate and got slaughtered [/b]. Your so called lines are flawed with parallax issue and a reference point which becomes useless except for a couple of frames , that's why when I used the back angle on hogan I only used a few frames , referencing the point after that is plain silly . And even the back angle on hogan showed it is not moving backwards from the top of the backswing . I especially like the adjusted part of line drawing . Yep I'll stick to my opinion
[/quote]


Guess I missed that. Exactly where did that take place? This is what I said and you haven't disproved any of it:

"Yep. His belt buckle isn't anywhere close to his left foot at impact, let alone past it. The tailbone moves towards the target in the backswing, away from the target in the downswing, and can be carried back towards the target in the follow-through."

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1411742435' post='10188309']
#Tod - maybe I am confused, I am not the most knowledgeable about the swing, KM's stuff, or Hogan like some here are, but to my layman eyes, it appears Hogan and Snead both have their belt buckles in line with the ball at impact, meaning they are moving toward the target with their lower bodies and no where near spinning out and back away from the target. I have always found this contradictory to what I have read from KM, but maybe I don't understand. To me, Hogan and Snead are doing what KM said not to.
[/quote]

Since Kel uses both Hogan and Snead (as well as Nicklaus) as models in his articles on the hips, I'd agree you aren't up to speed. Here they are:

http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2011-04-whats-a-hip-turn-part-1.html

http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2011-04-whats-a-hip-turn-part-2.html

http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2011-07-how-to-turn-your-hips-part-3-the-backswing.html

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1411742224' post='10188279']
Oh boy ^^^^ and you can't fathom how that nukes your tailbone junk science
[/quote]


Not at all. That's an example of someone not doing what Kel teaches, but it works for him.

[ej002]

[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1411742072' post='10188261']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1411705069' post='10186111']
Regardless of where the crack is,Hogan's entire pelvic area makes a significant lateral move towards the target whereas Sadlowski's pelvis remains in the same area . Hogan proves that you can make a lateral move while still rotating the hips. KM prefers rotation to lateral motion and that's fine but don't try to fit Hogan into the model.
[/quote]

Actually, most of Hogan's lateral movement, at least during his playing days, was from setting up with his hips further away from the target than most. At impact he was not very far left.
[/quote]

Hips more off the left axis point or was his wais just skinnier and he has a wider stance? Does he set up more right than sadlowski? Doubtful

[Hstead]

Now I am more confused "his tailbone isn't anywhere near his left foot at impact"? Maybe I am not seeing this correctly but to me both Hogan and Snead have their tailbones very close to their left foot and Sneads maybe even over top of the inside of his left ankle. That isn't close? Is it just not close because they have not bent their knee and their Sneads inseam is 34"? Because to me it is close as in nearly directly over his left ankle at impact from the ground up.

Edit - I think some my confusion lies in some of your posts then Tod. From watching the videos in the KM articles, it looks to me it is more a sequencing of when the pelvis rotates and moves left? It looks like KM is talking more about P4 to P4.5 closer to transition where the pelvis rotates more and then moves left more. That is how I understand it anyway, vs saying they are not moving left. To me if you watch the belt buckle it clearly moves left and like I said it is almost over the left ankle at impact.

[ej002]

I want to know more about thank drive hold blocky thing if hogan and snead are the model with lots of roll.

[eightiron]

It's Jeff Martin trolling time , Jeff Mann said it's junk science , and that's good enough for me . Jeff Mann is an expert doctor with 5 dimensional eyes! Plus PHD in human biomechanics etc

[eightiron]

[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1411743032' post='10188373']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1411742224' post='10188279']
Oh boy ^^^^ and you can't fathom how that nukes your tailbone junk science
[/quote]


Not at all. That's an example of someone not doing what Kel teaches, but it works for him.
[/quote]

Actually I'm referring to the hogan one . I think I figured out the main problem . When hogan gets to his top end backswing , maybe I'm stretching this a bit , but perhaps you think his tailbone has got a set of eyes looking further forward on an angle , triple lol
Actually , yeah , that has to be it , it's got eyes and angled projection to a fictional point

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1411743047' post='10188377']
[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1411742072' post='10188261']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1411705069' post='10186111']
Regardless of where the crack is,Hogan's entire pelvic area makes a significant lateral move towards the target whereas Sadlowski's pelvis remains in the same area . Hogan proves that you can make a lateral move while still rotating the hips. KM prefers rotation to lateral motion and that's fine but don't try to fit Hogan into the model.
[/quote]

Actually, most of Hogan's lateral movement, at least during his playing days, was from setting up with his hips further away from the target than most. At impact he was not very far left.
[/quote]

Hips more off the left axis point or was his wais just skinnier and he has a wider stance? [b]Does he set up more right than sadlowski? [/b] Doubtful
[/quote]


Looks to me like he does:

[Hstead]

This is where I am confused. To me, Jamie is in a totally different impact position than Snead and Hogan. Jamies belt buckle is at least 4 or 5 inches behind his left ankle whereas Snead and Hogan have their zippers over their left ankle. Hogan and Sneads hips are much more forward to me than Jamies. Am I wrong?

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1411743197' post='10188385']
Now I am more confused [b]"his tailbone isn't anywhere near his left foot at impact"?[/b] Maybe I am not seeing this correctly but to me both Hogan and Snead have their tailbones very close to their left foot and Sneads maybe even over top of the inside of his left ankle. That isn't close? Is it just not close because they have not bent their knee and their Sneads inseam is 34"? Because to me it is close as in nearly directly over his left ankle at impact from the ground up.

Edit - I think some my confusion lies in some of your posts then Tod. From watching the videos in the KM articles, it looks to me it is more a sequencing of when the pelvis rotates and moves left? It looks like KM is talking more about P4 to P4.5 closer to transition where the pelvis rotates more and then moves left more. That is how I understand it anyway, vs saying they are not moving left. To me if you watch the belt buckle it clearly moves left and like I said it is almost over the left ankle at impact.
[/quote]


I actually said "belt buckle", not "tailbone", and this was the picture I was talking about:

[ej002]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1411743251' post='10188393']
It's Jeff Martin trolling time , Jeff Mann said it's junk science , and that's good enough for me . Jeff Mann is an expert doctor with 5 dimensional eyes! Plus PHD in human biomechanics etc
[/quote]

5 DIMENSIONAL EYES? Does Tapio know about that?

[Hstead]

[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1411744580' post='10188503']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1411743197' post='10188385']
Now I am more confused [b]"his tailbone isn't anywhere near his left foot at impact"?[/b] Maybe I am not seeing this correctly but to me both Hogan and Snead have their tailbones very close to their left foot and Sneads maybe even over top of the inside of his left ankle. That isn't close? Is it just not close because they have not bent their knee and their Sneads inseam is 34"? Because to me it is close as in nearly directly over his left ankle at impact from the ground up.

Edit - I think some my confusion lies in some of your posts then Tod. From watching the videos in the KM articles, it looks to me it is more a sequencing of when the pelvis rotates and moves left? It looks like KM is talking more about P4 to P4.5 closer to transition where the pelvis rotates more and then moves left more. That is how I understand it anyway, vs saying they are not moving left. To me if you watch the belt buckle it clearly moves left and like I said it is almost over the left ankle at impact.
[/quote]


I actually said "belt buckle", not "tailbone", and this was the picture I was talking about:
[/quote]

Do you have more pictures, especially irons shots that include the feet? The pictures you posted earlier with the line draw straight up appears a lot more of what I am talking about, especially with Snead. Do you think Snead and Jamie are in the same impact position, especially regarding the belt buckle in relation to the left ankle? To me they are not.

[ej002]

[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1411743909' post='10188459']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1411743047' post='10188377']
[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1411742072' post='10188261']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1411705069' post='10186111']
Regardless of where the crack is,Hogan's entire pelvic area makes a significant lateral move towards the target whereas Sadlowski's pelvis remains in the same area . Hogan proves that you can make a lateral move while still rotating the hips. KM prefers rotation to lateral motion and that's fine but don't try to fit Hogan into the model.
[/quote]

Actually, most of Hogan's lateral movement, at least during his playing days, was from setting up with his hips further away from the target than most. At impact he was not very far left.
[/quote]

Hips more off the left axis point or was his wais just skinnier and he has a wider stance? [b]Does he set up more right than sadlowski? [/b] Doubtful
[/quote]


Looks to me like he does:
[/quote]

You do realize in those pic's Hogan's pants are pulled up past his belly button and his waist was like 28", and JS is saggin his pants and not anywhere near as wide a stance.

So the top of your line ends in two different positions of their bodies. If your line extended as high on Sadlowski and he didn't have a baggy shirt, it would be obvious that the set up isn't much different. The different is that Sadlowski spins out and Hogan moves laterally. This is OBVIOUS stuff.

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1411744173' post='10188479']
This is where I am confused. To me, Jamie is in a totally different impact position than Snead and Hogan. Jamies belt buckle is at least 4 or 5 inches behind his left ankle whereas Snead and Hogan have their zippers over their left ankle. Hogan and Sneads hips are much more forward to me than Jamies. Am I wrong?
[/quote]

Yes, I think Hogan and Snead are more forward than Jamie, who is trying to hit the ball with a plus 5 degrees or more AoA, btw. I don't agree that Hogan's zipper is over his left ankle, though: I'd say it is still inside the left heel at impact:

[Hstead]

Do you have pictures of Hogan and Snead hitting an iron shot?

So we agree Jamie is in a different position. Which position is the "better" according to KM because to me it can't be both as those are two very different positions at impact.

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1411744761' post='10188523']
[quote name='Tod Johnson' timestamp='1411744580' post='10188503']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1411743197' post='10188385']
Now I am more confused [b]"his tailbone isn't anywhere near his left foot at impact"?[/b] Maybe I am not seeing this correctly but to me both Hogan and Snead have their tailbones very close to their left foot and Sneads maybe even over top of the inside of his left ankle. That isn't close? Is it just not close because they have not bent their knee and their Sneads inseam is 34"? Because to me it is close as in nearly directly over his left ankle at impact from the ground up.

Edit - I think some my confusion lies in some of your posts then Tod. From watching the videos in the KM articles, it looks to me it is more a sequencing of when the pelvis rotates and moves left? It looks like KM is talking more about P4 to P4.5 closer to transition where the pelvis rotates more and then moves left more. That is how I understand it anyway, vs saying they are not moving left. To me if you watch the belt buckle it clearly moves left and like I said it is almost over the left ankle at impact.
[/quote]


I actually said "belt buckle", not "tailbone", and this was the picture I was talking about:
[/quote]

Do you have more pictures, especially irons shots that include the feet? The pictures you posted earlier with the line draw straight up appears a lot more of what I am talking about, especially with Snead. [/quote]

Irons are going to be different, even with Jaime: further left.

[quote]Do you think Snead and Jamie are in the same impact position, especially regarding the belt buckle in relation to the left ankle? To me they are not.
[/quote]


No, I think Snead is further left: he sets up much further left and stays there. If you wind up looking like him, that would be great! As someone posted earlier from Kel's most recent article, he does not advocate following a specific model. However, Lucas prefers to follow a model, which is Jamie.

[eightiron]

Yep , that's it Hogan gets what maybe 6 to 8 inches more forward or is it 12 inches yet his tailbone goes backwards the whole way down

[Tod Johnson]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1411745252' post='10188561']
Do you have pictures of Hogan and Snead hitting an iron shot?

So we agree Jamie is in a different position. Which position is the "better" according to KM because to me it can't be both as those are two very different positions at impact.
[/quote]

I think he'd just say they are different. He loves all three players.