Some ideas about the trail arm straightening

[CrabDaddy]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1416239509' post='10460453']
Setup with a golf club so our step of left foot is against a wall. Make a backswing. From there drive the butt of the club forward and into the wall. Do you have a lot of lag? Are your wrist still cocked? Did hands move away from the shoulder and did right arm straighten?

Arms should move away from the rear shoulder, down and forward. This will extend the rear arm and despite what other say it won't cause you to uncock your wrist
[/quote]

Good stuff, Dan! When getting the hands farther from the right shoulder, should it feel more like the left hand pulling the club or the right hand pushing? Or different for different players?

I remember a while back, Monte was developing a training aid that used the motion you just described - glove w/padded knuckles + grip, stand against a wall, swing so knuckles hit the wall.


With Mickelson being the example of not straightening the right arm soon enough, and Ernie Els had a tip of maintaining the 90deg bend in right arm as long as you could in the ds, what would be the advantage of swinging that way? Or did those guys just make it work for them?

[iteachgolf]

There isn't an advantage. Those guys aren't actually doing that. And it's why they tend to look flippy through impact. Same with VJ

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1416241952' post='10460693']
I understand. What exactly am I wrong about when it comes to hinge actions. The right wrist is cocked in all swings. It's not level. I live in the real world and not lala land. Go ask Ted Fort how much his right wrist cocked when is was on 3D. Again I know exactly what TGM says. It's just not all correct. Please show me a tour level swing with a level right wrist at the top of the back swing. One that has zero wrist c0ck in it.
[/quote]

Can't find the thread, and don't recall specifically, but it was probably a case of TGM "incorrectness", so you made up your own definitions of hinge action. As to a tour player who doesn't c0ck the right wrist, as you said,most do. I've been in several arguments through the yrs on the TGM forums about this. However, those players do not follow TGM protocol, and the physics of TGM does not apply, because of the cocking right wrist. There are examples of good players, including tour players, with uncocked right wrists, such as Brian Gay and Lynn Blake, whose videos are available on Lynn's web site. You can believe what you want, but teaching partial truth TGM will be confusing to those who are actually studying it. If you are an accredited GSEB, GSEM, or GSED, you should do as Manzella and company and resign those credentials.

[JPGolf FL]

You can't straighten the right arm too fast too soon. If the right arm is straight at impact rather than bent it's because shoulder stalled not because the arms are firing too fast. Right arm must begin straightening before wrist begin uncocking. Coming down immediately, hands need to move away from the right shoulder down and forward getting wider. This results it more "lag" not less. The majority of people have the right arm way too bent and back halfway down and are generally the ones who end up with it straight at impact. Doesn't begin straightening fast enough or soon enough, so then they go "oops" the shoulder stops and they straighten it completely very late to get down to the golf ball.

 

 

Look how far his hands are from his right shoulder and how straight right arm is early

 

 

 

Now look at Phil. His hands don't move away from his rear shoulder in transition. His rear arm is straight at impact because it didn't start straightening soon enough fast enough. Which I know sounds crazy. But look at the 3rd photos in each sequence. Phil's rear shoulder works down early with his hands (why he looks narrow) but between the 2nd and 3rd photo his rear shoulder has stopped working down in an effort to get his hands down and away from the shoulder late. This shoulder stalling because his rear arms wasn't straightening soon enough is why it was too straight at impact.

 

 

 

Now compare Phil and Sergio in transition. Phil's rear arm is still bent 90* and hands haven't moved away from rear shoulder at all. Sergio on the other hand has his hands TWICE as far away from his rear shoulder and his right arm is bent maybe 120* at the point.

 

 

Sergio straightening the rear arm soon allowing it to get away from his rear shoulder allows his shoulder to turn FASTER through impact and his rear shoulder never stalls.

 

 

 

Same with Hogan. Hands moved away from rear shoulder immediately.

 

I thought you were TGM trained. Unless there is plane shift to one flatter than the Turned Shoulder Plane like Hogan does, any arm straightening is a power leak. Delivering the bent elbow to release point without straightening, guarantees max wrist c0ck power.

You are assuming that straightening the right arm will always uncock the left wrist. That is not true. It can be seen in the real world, and I'm quite sure it actually says that in the book.

[iteachgolf]

So everyone is on the same page Joe and those playing at home.

 

 

This is level

 

 

And this is cocked

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1416247225' post='10461219']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1416241952' post='10460693']
I understand. What exactly am I wrong about when it comes to hinge actions. The right wrist is cocked in all swings. It's not level. I live in the real world and not lala land. Go ask Ted Fort how much his right wrist cocked when is was on 3D. Again I know exactly what TGM says. It's just not all correct. Please show me a tour level swing with a level right wrist at the top of the back swing. One that has zero wrist c0ck in it.
[/quote]

Can't find the thread, and don't recall specifically, but it was probably a case of TGM "incorrectness", so you made up your own definitions of hinge action. As to a tour player who doesn't c0ck the right wrist, as you said,most do. I've been in several arguments through the yrs on the TGM forums about this. However, those players do not follow TGM protocol, and the physics of TGM does not apply, because of the cocking right wrist. There are examples of good players, including tour players, with uncocked right wrists, such as Brian Gay and Lynn Blake, whose videos are available on Lynn's web site. You can believe what you want, but teaching partial truth TGM will be confusing to those who are actually studying it. If you are an accredited GSEB, GSEM, or GSED, you should do as Manzella and company and resign those credentials.
[/quote]

I haven't paid dues in over 5 years and advertise nowhere that I am/was a GSEB. Brian Gay cocks his right wrist. Everyone does. Show me a video of someone who doesn't. Show me a picture of someone who cocks the left wrist while keeping the right wrist level.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1416242101' post='10460711']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1416241651' post='10460673']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1416240586' post='10460595']
[quote name='Lime Shark' timestamp='1416240210' post='10460529']
[b]Hitting vs swinging[/b]

Before this thread devolves into a complete mish-mash of advice, people should realize that the motion the OP is describing is what is commonly called a "hitting" golf swing.
[/quote]

There is no mish mash. Hitting and swinging are feels not reality. There is constant pushing and pulling throughout the golf swing. What the OP is describing is exactly what Sergio and Hogan do and most TGM guys would call them the posterboys for swinging. In reality everyone does both in all full swings. Same bs goes for the level right wrist. Right wrist is cocked in all good swings.

Now I understand - you have completely rewritten TGM.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Again I haven't rewritten anything. The book is simply wrong in some instances. Doesn't mean you burn the whole thing. Homer himself said you can only identify the player by asking him and that it's impossible to tell by looking. Which is a round about way to say exactly what I said. It's a feel. In reality both are happening at the same time. Again I don't live in lala land
[/quote]

Firing the right triceps in the release interval of a cf swing will interfere with the freewheeling shaft, almost always because the shaft is going faster than the player's hand thrust, so he's actually pulling back on it. If not, it's simply a pure Hit with the right arm thrust overpowering cf, not adding anything. In the 4 barrel Hit, the right shoulder thrust stalls before the triceps is fired, so cf and arm thrust are sequential, not simultaneous. This has nothing to do with identifying Hitting or Swinging, sometimes you have to ask the player whether or not he's firing the right triceps through impact, which doesn't make TGM wrong. There is a term for trying to do both at the same time, called switting, which is not TGM.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1416248096' post='10461333']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1416247225' post='10461219']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1416241952' post='10460693']
I understand. What exactly am I wrong about when it comes to hinge actions. The right wrist is cocked in all swings. It's not level. I live in the real world and not lala land. Go ask Ted Fort how much his right wrist cocked when is was on 3D. Again I know exactly what TGM says. It's just not all correct. Please show me a tour level swing with a level right wrist at the top of the back swing. One that has zero wrist c0ck in it.
[/quote]

Can't find the thread, and don't recall specifically, but it was probably a case of TGM "incorrectness", so you made up your own definitions of hinge action. As to a tour player who doesn't c0ck the right wrist, as you said,most do. I've been in several arguments through the yrs on the TGM forums about this. However, those players do not follow TGM protocol, and the physics of TGM does not apply, because of the cocking right wrist. There are examples of good players, including tour players, with uncocked right wrists, such as Brian Gay and Lynn Blake, whose videos are available on Lynn's web site. You can believe what you want, but teaching partial truth TGM will be confusing to those who are actually studying it. If you are an accredited GSEB, GSEM, or GSED, you should do as Manzella and company and resign those credentials.
[/quote]

I haven't paid dues in over 5 years and advertise nowhere that I am/was a GSEB. Brian Gay cocks his right wrist. Everyone does. Show me a video of someone who doesn't. Show me a picture of someone who cocks the left wrist while keeping the right wrist level.
[/quote]

I told you where to look, there are several tour players, including John Riegger, and others.

[iteachgolf]

And by your definitions nobody is TGM. Have never seen anyone who can bust a grape and get the ball airborne at a decent level not c0ck their right wrist. Would love to see a two armed golfer who's right tricep is not firing at all in the downswing when actually tested with tools that can test that sort of thing. Or are you saying it fires but since it's not conscious that it doesn't count.

[iteachgolf]

I understand. What exactly am I wrong about when it comes to hinge actions. The right wrist is cocked in all swings. It's not level. I live in the real world and not lala land. Go ask Ted Fort how much his right wrist cocked when is was on 3D. Again I know exactly what TGM says. It's just not all correct. Please show me a tour level swing with a level right wrist at the top of the back swing. One that has zero wrist c0ck in it.

 

Can't find the thread, and don't recall specifically, but it was probably a case of TGM "incorrectness", so you made up your own definitions of hinge action. As to a tour player who doesn't c0ck the right wrist, as you said,most do. I've been in several arguments through the yrs on the TGM forums about this. However, those players do not follow TGM protocol, and the physics of TGM does not apply, because of the cocking right wrist. There are examples of good players, including tour players, with uncocked right wrists, such as Brian Gay and Lynn Blake, whose videos are available on Lynn's web site. You can believe what you want, but teaching partial truth TGM will be confusing to those who are actually studying it. If you are an accredited GSEB, GSEM, or GSED, you should do as Manzella and company and resign those credentials.

 

I haven't paid dues in over 5 years and advertise nowhere that I am/was a GSEB. Brian Gay cocks his right wrist. Everyone does. Show me a video of someone who doesn't. Show me a picture of someone who cocks the left wrist while keeping the right wrist level.

 

I told you where to look, there are several tour players, including John Riegger, and others.

 

I know Riegger and have seen Brian hit plenty of balls in person. They both c0ck their right wrist.

 

 

Right wrist isn't close to inline with the forearm

[iteachgolf]

For fun here is John from a video Lynn posted. Right wrist is def 100% cocked there

 

 

 

 

 

[iteachgolf]

Like I said show me one picture of someone making a full backswing that doesn't c0ck their right wrist. Just one. Bonus if you can find me an actual picture of someone with a cocked left wrist and a level right wrist

[MizunoJoe]

For fun here is John from a video Lynn posted. Right wrist is def 100% cocked there

 

 

 

His shaft is NOT in line with his right forearm, it lies in the plane of the right wrist bend and right forearm, the right flying wedge, while the shaft is in line with the left arm, the left flying wedge. His right wrist is LEVEL, that is the base of the thumb is level with the top of the right forearm, which you would see if you looked directly into his right forearm at a 90 deg angle. Even though it's at the wrong angle for clarity, you can tell it's level, IF you actually know to analyze a 2-d view and understand the flying wedges are orthogonal to one another. Here's a video of Gay at the correct angle to see the level right wrist.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Like I said show me one picture of someone making a full backswing that doesn't c0ck their right wrist. Just one. Bonus if you can find me an actual picture of someone with a cocked left wrist and a level right wrist

[MizunoJoe]

There's two, but I suspect your double bonus, might be double confusion, if it involves looking at videos.

[iteachgolf]

Please explain to me how DTL is the correct view the see wrist c0ck at the end of the backswing. The FO view at the top of the swing gives the exact same perspective in relation to the camera as a shot from down the target line would at address from the target side of the ball. You know because the player has rotated 90* in relation to the target line the camera therefore would move 90*. Which means FO or Rear view at the top of the swing match perspective for wrist alignments from DTL at address.

 

The base of the thumb is plain as day not inline with his right forearm. Maybe you need to visit an optometrist

 

 

Here is Mr. TGM, Ted Fort. You can his right wrist go from level to cocked. The base of his right thumb goes from parallel to anything but parallel to right forearm

 

[iteachgolf]

 

In what weird parallel universe do you live in where the base of his right thumb is parallel to his forearm.

[iteachgolf]

Level

 

 

No longer level

 

 

Still not level

 

[iteachgolf]

And again I'd love to hear how you can see the base of the right thumb is parallel to the forearm from DTL. Especially when the thumb isn't visible from DTL in that swing. You see wrist c0ck by looking perpendicular to the forearm. DTL from setup and FO at the top. You won't see anything below and parallel to the forearm which is what you are from DTL.

[iteachgolf]

I don't need 3D or anything fancy. In what way is the base of thumb even close to parallel to the forearm. Still waiting for you to provide me with one photo of a full backswing where right wrist is level.

 

 

 

 

 

Btw if we are talking 3D the right wrist bend would be away from the camera from FO and would be a part of depth with you can't see in 2D video. This is why to see the amount of wrist bend you must look at DTL at the top of the swing. For the exact same reason you have to look for wrist c0ck in the FO view at the top of the swing. Now you can see what I meant when you may have read the book and understand it you severely fail at practical application of the theories.

[Biomateur]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1416259840' post='10462385'][...]a full backswing where right wrist is level.
[/quote]

Physically not possible.

[MizunoJoe]

 

In what weird parallel universe do you live in where the base of his right thumb is parallel to his forearm.

 

That's extreme rt wrist bend, if he were cocking it, the shaft would be pointing toward the target, instead of pointing back behind him, laid off like that.

 

Here's a video that crystal clear. Many say the best ball striker of all time and who Hogan used as a test mule for his new club designs. And, yes, his left wrist is cocked! And, no, his right wrist in not! And I've seen this same swing up as close as you can get without getting hit by the club, when he was in his prime, just me and him on the 2nd floor of Southroads Mall in Tulsa in 1970.

 

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='Biomateur' timestamp='1416260484' post='10462443']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1416259840' post='10462385'][...]a full backswing where right wrist is level.
[/quote]

Physically not possible.
[/quote]

Only if you define a full BS as one with right wrist c0ck.

[iteachgolf]

 

In what weird parallel universe do you live in where the base of his right thumb is parallel to his forearm.

 

That's extreme rt wrist bend, if he were cocking it, the shaft would be pointing toward the target, instead of pointing back behind him, laid off like that.

 

Here's a video that crystal clear. Many say the best ball striker of all time and who Hogan used as a test mule for his new club designs. And, yes, his left wrist is cocked! And, no, his right wrist in not! And I've seen this same swing up as close as you can get without getting hit by the club, when he was in his prime, just me and him on the 2nd floor of Southroads Mall in Tulsa in 1970.

 

 

Wrong again. Please explain in what way the base of the right thumb in the photos, I drew a line on it to make it easier, is parallel to the right arm. Trevino does have right wrist c0ck, not as much as others but its there. Draw a line on the base of his thumb and tell me that it's inline with his forearm. How about we ask the audience if they think his right wrist is level here or cocked

 

[iteachgolf]

So everyone is on the same page

 

This is level

 

 

And this is cocked

 

Which one does Trevino look like above

[iteachgolf]

[media=]http://youtu.be/yE3gqSXp39M[/media]

Here is a video showing cocked, level and uncocked. The cocked one looks exactly like Riegger

[Biomateur]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1416260970' post='10462485']
[quote name='Biomateur' timestamp='1416260484' post='10462443']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1416259840' post='10462385'][...]a full backswing where right wrist is level.
[/quote]

Physically not possible.
[/quote]

Only if you define a full BS as one with right wrist c0ck.
[/quote]

No. Range of movement in a joint + momentum. Not possible to overcome this during a fast motion.

[iteachgolf]

Btw I have no doubt Riegger has tried to keep it level. But it certainly isn't at the top of the swing

 

 

Btw Riegger tends to get sweetspot above plane and across the line and isn't laid off like you imply.

 

 

 

But if you want to keep on going, here ya go

 

[whatshannenin]

Someone get the butter......

[MizunoJoe]

[b]Even more obvious DTL[/b]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oq5MNeQiiXA

But, this just can't be true, so every one of the TGM golf stroke engineers world-wide is wrong!

[iteachgolf]

Again how can you see the base of thumb to forearm relationship from DTL at the top of the swing when neither top of the forearm or thumb are visible?