Some ideas about the trail arm straightening

[Daniel Eason]

Working myself on a connected swing, the cocking of my wrists and whatever other funky move I do to make me look like I have my arms in front at the top of the swing are effectively nothing more than improvisation unless I engage my inner core and wind up my body.

[Golf nerd]

[quote name='Daniel Eason' timestamp='1416300661' post='10465441']
Working myself on a connected swing, the cocking of my wrists and whatever other funky move I do to make me look like I have my arms in front at the top of the swing are effectively nothing more than improvisation unless I engage my inner core and wind up my body.
[/quote]

I think that a bs swing with tons of turn and less arm swing is easier to manage and would agree to your pivot based idea. According to the current teaching viewpoint that will help to be in synch, which will lead to more consistent impact.
My old approach isn't consistent enough and therefore I will have to change some elements. I will give the centered pivot pattern a try and will hopefully become more in synch in the ds as well, which should solve the impact issue- hopefully.

[Daniel Eason]

Working myself on a connected swing, the cocking of my wrists and whatever other funky move I do to make me look like I have my arms in front at the top of the swing are effectively nothing more than improvisation unless I engage my inner core and wind up my body.

 

I think that a bs swing with tons of turn and less arm swing is easier to manage and would agree to your pivot based idea. According to the current teaching viewpoint that will help to be in synch, which will lead to more consistent impact.

My old approach isn't consistent enough and therefore I will have to change some elements. I will give the centered pivot pattern a try and will hopefully become more in synch in the ds as well, which should solve the impact issue- hopefully. ;)

 

What you feel isn't real...everyone says this but you need to know the cause and effects.

 

 

Left hand swing was my first swings where I felt like I had my arms in front like the great Rory Mcilroy.....however the ball flight was the one slapping me back in my box, I was fighting pull/ hooks and the ball shape just wasn't consistent.

 

I'll let you decide what shape/consistent is currently working best.

[Golf nerd]

Working myself on a connected swing, the cocking of my wrists and whatever other funky move I do to make me look like I have my arms in front at the top of the swing are effectively nothing more than improvisation unless I engage my inner core and wind up my body.

 

I think that a bs swing with tons of turn and less arm swing is easier to manage and would agree to your pivot based idea. According to the current teaching viewpoint that will help to be in synch, which will lead to more consistent impact.

My old approach isn't consistent enough and therefore I will have to change some elements. I will give the centered pivot pattern a try and will hopefully become more in synch in the ds as well, which should solve the impact issue- hopefully. ;)

 

What you feel isn't real...everyone says this but you need to know the cause and effects.

 

 

Left hand swing was my first swings where I felt like I had my arms in front like the great Rory Mcilroy.....however the ball flight was the one slapping me back in my box, I was fighting pull/ hooks and the ball shape just wasn't consistent.

 

I'll let you decide what shape/consistent is currently working best.

 

Estimated guess from the stills:

If you have had pulls and hooks with the left hand side bs then the downswing move was OTT probably. I think that our swing expert team would also demand some more hip turn in the bs (turning deep into right heel) From there the arms have to swing down and out as the upper body follows. Another approach would be some axis tilt away from the target.

[Daniel Eason]

Working myself on a connected swing, the cocking of my wrists and whatever other funky move I do to make me look like I have my arms in front at the top of the swing are effectively nothing more than improvisation unless I engage my inner core and wind up my body.

 

I think that a bs swing with tons of turn and less arm swing is easier to manage and would agree to your pivot based idea. According to the current teaching viewpoint that will help to be in synch, which will lead to more consistent impact.

My old approach isn't consistent enough and therefore I will have to change some elements. I will give the centered pivot pattern a try and will hopefully become more in synch in the ds as well, which should solve the impact issue- hopefully. ;)

 

What you feel isn't real...everyone says this but you need to know the cause and effects.

 

 

Left hand swing was my first swings where I felt like I had my arms in front like the great Rory Mcilroy.....however the ball flight was the one slapping me back in my box, I was fighting pull/ hooks and the ball shape just wasn't consistent.

 

I'll let you decide what shape/consistent is currently working best.

 

Estimated guess from the stills:

If you have had pulls and hooks with the left hand side bs then the downswing move was OTT probably. I think that our swing expert team would also demand some more hip turn in the bs (turning deep into right heel) From there the arms have to swing down and out as the upper body follows. Another approach would be some axis tilt away from the target.

 

Thanks for the input but I'm not looking for critque, just to emphasise what using the Core really means in relation to the turn.

 

I had too much of what you recommend anyway :)

[Golf nerd]

Working myself on a connected swing, the cocking of my wrists and whatever other funky move I do to make me look like I have my arms in front at the top of the swing are effectively nothing more than improvisation unless I engage my inner core and wind up my body.

 

I think that a bs swing with tons of turn and less arm swing is easier to manage and would agree to your pivot based idea. According to the current teaching viewpoint that will help to be in synch, which will lead to more consistent impact.

My old approach isn't consistent enough and therefore I will have to change some elements. I will give the centered pivot pattern a try and will hopefully become more in synch in the ds as well, which should solve the impact issue- hopefully. ;)

 

What you feel isn't real...everyone says this but you need to know the cause and effects.

 

 

Left hand swing was my first swings where I felt like I had my arms in front like the great Rory Mcilroy.....however the ball flight was the one slapping me back in my box, I was fighting pull/ hooks and the ball shape just wasn't consistent.

 

I'll let you decide what shape/consistent is currently working best.

 

Estimated guess from the stills:

If you have had pulls and hooks with the left hand side bs then the downswing move was OTT probably. I think that our swing expert team would also demand some more hip turn in the bs (turning deep into right heel) From there the arms have to swing down and out as the upper body follows. Another approach would be some axis tilt away from the target.

 

Thanks for the input but I'm not looking for critque, just to emphasise what using the Core really means in relation to the turn.

 

I had too much of what you recommend anyway :)

 

Too much axis tilt and hip turn? Arms swinging down also? ;)

Sorry for any comment. Hope you will sort out a reasonable swing path with your coach.

Good luck, Daniel and all the best!

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='FutureOfTheTour' timestamp='1416283348' post='10464827']
I am not taking sides or saying anyone has the better opinion as I have never read TGM. But think this argument needs to end and should get back to the right arm and off the wrist hinge issue.
[/quote]

The straightening of the right arm and the right wrist position are significantly related. The right arm straightening lowers and uncocks the left wrist as the pivot brings the hands into impact in perfect alignment with left wrist flat and level and the right bent and level. So, if the right wrist is always level and bent, there's no need to add the complication of uncocking it, especially since the left wrist c0ck is dominant, and together with the pivot provide almost all the power in the swing.

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1416324812' post='10466325']
[quote name='FutureOfTheTour' timestamp='1416283348' post='10464827']
I am not taking sides or saying anyone has the better opinion as I have never read TGM. But think this argument needs to end and should get back to the right arm and off the wrist hinge issue.
[/quote]

The straightening of the right arm and the right wrist position are significantly related. The right arm straightening lowers and uncocks the left wrist as the pivot brings the hands into impact in perfect alignment with left wrist flat and level and the right bent and level. So, if the right wrist is always level and bent, there's no need to add the complication of uncocking it, especially since the left wrist c0ck is dominant, and together with the pivot provide almost all the power in the swing.
[/quote]
Again, straightening the right arm doesn't have to uncock the left wrist. And again, it's simply not realistic to only bend the right wrist with zero c0ck. No one does that.

[Golf nerd]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1416261735' post='10462539']
[media=]http://youtu.be/yE3gqSXp39M[/media]

Here is a video showing cocked, level and uncocked. The cocked one looks exactly like Riegger
[/quote]

Actually a hinged back wrist barely allows cocking motion. A lot of the c0ck in the right hand you show in your vid is hinged back wrist with a turned forearm.
Bend your right wrist back fully (without a club) and then try to c0ck it. Is very hard to do, but with momentum of the club it will turn the forearm bones.
So it appears to be cocked.

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='Golf nerd' timestamp='1416327528' post='10466601']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1416261735' post='10462539']
[media=]http://youtu.be/yE3gqSXp39M[/media]

Here is a video showing cocked, level and uncocked. The cocked one looks exactly like Riegger
[/quote]

Actually a hinged back wrist barely allows cocking motion. A lot of the c0ck in the right hand you show in your vid is hinged back wrist with a turned forearm.
Bend your right wrist back fully (without a club) and then try to c0ck it. Is very hard to do, but with momentum of the club it will turn the forearm bones.
So it appears to be cocked.
[/quote]
That makes no sense. Turning a level wrist will not make it look cocked. It will make it look turned and level. And the more you bend the wrist the more it will want to c0ck as ROM runs out very quickly while bending only. Again, bending and cocking are not mutually exclusive.

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='Golf nerd' timestamp='1416327528' post='10466601']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1416261735' post='10462539']
[media=]http://youtu.be/yE3gqSXp39M[/media]

Here is a video showing cocked, level and uncocked. The cocked one looks exactly like Riegger
[/quote]

Actually a hinged back wrist barely allows cocking motion. A lot of the c0ck in the right hand you show in your vid is hinged back wrist with a turned forearm.
Bend your right wrist back fully (without a club) and then try to c0ck it. Is very hard to do, but with momentum of the club it will turn the forearm bones.
So it appears to be cocked.
[/quote]

Now do it the other way. c0ck wrist fully. Then bend right wrist back. Not difficult at all. And gets to same position. Wrist don't uncock as wrist is bent back. It's your perception while doing this that is flawed. Guessing you are cocking the wrist while bending it back without realizing it or you don't understand what is happening. Watch forearm/bones as you simply c0ck the wrist vertically with no right wrist bend.

[Golf nerd]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkegKUFXzvA&feature=youtu.be

Honestly, hinge back first restricts the movement. So I guess you were both correct. It depends how you grip and how you hinge. Also the turning of the forearms change the appearance, the look at the top of the swing. I personally don't care who is right or wrong. Was only interested in the wrist motion and learned agian something. Thanks for sharing your insights, Iteach.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1416326339' post='10466465']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1416324812' post='10466325']
[quote name='FutureOfTheTour' timestamp='1416283348' post='10464827']
I am not taking sides or saying anyone has the better opinion as I have never read TGM. But think this argument needs to end and should get back to the right arm and off the wrist hinge issue.
[/quote]

The straightening of the right arm and the right wrist position are significantly related. The right arm straightening lowers and uncocks the left wrist as the pivot brings the hands into impact in perfect alignment with left wrist flat and level and the right bent and level. So, if the right wrist is always level and bent, there's no need to add the complication of uncocking it, especially since the left wrist c0ck is dominant, and together with the pivot provide almost all the power in the swing.
[/quote]
Again, straightening the right arm doesn't have to uncock the left wrist. And again, it's simply not realistic to only bend the right wrist with zero c0ck. No one does that.
[/quote]

You have to prevent it with tension. If the left wrist is tension free and the right arm is straightened, how does it not uncock? That's the point of a level right wrist, all the wristcock is in the left and will be retained if the right elbow remains bent. Then, if the right elbow is delivered to a deep release position in pitch attitude, the pivot snap releases the left wrist c0ck, sending the shaft free-wheeling through impact. The early extension of the right arm that everyone here is talking up is one of biggest problems in golf.

And yes, some keep it level and bent, just as TGM suggests. I do it but that doesn't count since I've never teed it up in a tour event like you guys who know better.

[Biomateur]

As said in one of previous threads: wrist extension is compatibile to cOcking, while flexion to downcOcking.

[iteachgolf]

What grip type do you use? Hold a club in right hand with right wrist bent level and vertical. Now at the same time hold a club in left hand with left wrist cocked level and vertical. How would you have to hold a club to have both those wrist alignments occurring at the same time.

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='Golf nerd' timestamp='1416329816' post='10466863']
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkegKUFXzvA&feature=youtu.be[/media]

Honestly, hinge back first restricts the movement. So I guess you were both correct. It depends how you grip and how you hinge. Also the turning of the forearms change the appearance, the look at the top of the swing. I personally don't care who is right or wrong. Was only interested in the wrist motion and learned agian something. Thanks for sharing your insights, Iteach.
[/quote]

When your wrist c0ck it rotates the bones in the forearm. Again you don't understand what's happening. The forearm rotation that you see is happening because the wrist is cocking. Which is why when you c0ck your wrist your arm lifts off the table. You are fighting that which is why you have limited range of motion. Do same thing without arm on table and you'll see it's easy to c0ck. Like I said watch fore arm when you c0ck the wrist with no bend. The bones in the forearm rotate. It's why when you c0ck the wrist first then bend it back it feels easier. Bones already rotates. When you try to do it the other way you are trying to prevent bones from rotating. You are preventing the range of motion. The backwards bend is not. It's your brain. Which is why it's easy the other way. Nothing to fight since the bones rotated as you cocked the wrist

Edit: anyone can feel this if they hold their right wrist/forearm with their left hand. and simply c0ck the right hand vertically. You can feel the bones rotate

[Tax Man Golfeth]

This might be stating the obvious, but since no one has stated it yet...

The videos of Brian Gay and of Trevino in his old age that were submitted to support the "no right wrist c0ck" viewpoint both appear to be half swings by normal standards. The shaft is pointed almost vertical at the top of the BS; I don't see a great deal of wrist set in either player on the selected videos, never mind which wrist we're talking about. You could probably also post videos of Stricker hitting wedges and see something similar. I'd go look, but it doesn't matter as its not typical of tour players hitting full mid irons or woods. ...It's not often that Brian Gay is held out as a swing model, given his tour stats in virtually any category.

I don't understand how it would be possible to arrive at the top w/ parallel shaft pointed down the line, over your right shoulder, and not c0ck your right wrist. If you only cupped it w/ no c0ck, the club would point behind you. Pictures demonstrating what you mean would be helpful here.

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1416329949' post='10466885']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1416326339' post='10466465']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1416324812' post='10466325']
[quote name='FutureOfTheTour' timestamp='1416283348' post='10464827']
I am not taking sides or saying anyone has the better opinion as I have never read TGM. But think this argument needs to end and should get back to the right arm and off the wrist hinge issue.
[/quote]

The straightening of the right arm and the right wrist position are significantly related. The right arm straightening lowers and uncocks the left wrist as the pivot brings the hands into impact in perfect alignment with left wrist flat and level and the right bent and level. So, if the right wrist is always level and bent, there's no need to add the complication of uncocking it, especially since the left wrist c0ck is dominant, and together with the pivot provide almost all the power in the swing.
[/quote]
Again, straightening the right arm doesn't have to uncock the left wrist. And again, it's simply not realistic to only bend the right wrist with zero c0ck. No one does that.
[/quote]

You have to prevent it with tension. If the left wrist is tension free and the right arm is straightened, how does it not uncock? That's the point of a level right wrist, all the wristcock is in the left and will be retained if the right elbow remains bent. Then, if the right elbow is delivered to a deep release position in pitch attitude, the pivot snap releases the left wrist c0ck, sending the shaft free-wheeling through impact. The early extension of the right arm that everyone here is talking up is one of biggest problems in golf.

And yes, some keep it level and bent, just as TGM suggests. I do it but that doesn't count since I've never teed it up in a tour event like you guys who know better.
[/quote]
Inertia, not tension, keeps the wrist cocked. Surely you know that. If right arm straightening is such a huge problem, could you show us some examples? Because it sounds like you are describing a flexion/right shoulder/elbow position issue, not a right arm straightening problem.
And we are still waiting on you to show us a guy with a bent only right wrist. And no, you can't see it from dtl as the c0ck happen away from the camera.

[iteachgolf]

He can't post a picture because it wouldn't look like a backswing and the left wrist wouldn't be cocked. He said he does it so he should be able to post a picture of himself with a fully cocked left wrist but a level right wrist.

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1416331939' post='10467111']
He can't post a picture because it wouldn't look like a backswing and the left wrist wouldn't be cocked. He said he does it so he should be able to post a picture of himself with a fully cocked left wrist but a level right wrist.
[/quote]
Oh he could do it. He would just need to put close to a 90° bend in the shaft between the hands.

[spider]

FWIW Thx! The feeling of straightening the right arm in the downswing feels really good. Now I'm hitting into a net but the feel is good. Gets my arms working down faster, less inside out and less EE goin on. Also it does nothing to my wrist set by straightening the right arm earlier. Not sure why it would effect that ...It just feels like a right arm triceps extention.

[Reasonability]

A few things are painfully clear.

At a minimum, there are four "buckets" of understanding. Its HIGHLY unlikely any of us are in perfect alignment of all four.

a) The VARIOUS swing motions and styles "can be" debated on a pure anatomical basis. Depending on the individual (feel vs mechanics player) this may or may not compute.

b) There are a myriad of "if-thens". Setup, grip, body type, overall flexibility, normal tendencies, personal beliefs.

c) There are interrelationships at work at all times in the swing. The wrists, BOTH elbows, the knees, the posture... the whole smash is in play at all times.

d) ALL OF THE ABOVE ARE SUBJECT TO HIGHLY INDIVIDUAL INTERPREPATION, PERCEPTION, FRAME OF REFERENCE, AND INDIVIDUALITY.

I'm no different than the next golfer about debates like this. In fact I rather enjoy most of them...provided they aren't personalized, become all about someone's personal agenda, or identifying who is the village idiot. (kind of stops being fun at those points).

BUT C & D above are the wild cards. We aren't going to progress this discussion if we don't understand or can't relate to the other guy at all. [b][u] For all I/we know... one person ascribes to a bowed left wrist at the top and swings on a single plane -- the next is the opposite[/u][/b] -- Showing us pictures all day long of one thing (pick one - elbow or wrist) is cool -- but in this case it starts sounding like people who speak two different languages are trying (unsuccessfully) to communicate. Its really getting to the point where the bigger picture about swing mechanics and feels inside one isolated part (wrist set) is the focus when there is probably more going on around it. As a comparison - Is this the classic case of the Moe Norman swinger and Jack Nicklaus believer trying (unsuccessfully) to understand each other?

Its OK (given A through D) to agree to disagree. I hope????

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1416330514' post='10466943']
What grip type do you use? Hold a club in right hand with right wrist bent level and vertical. Now at the same time hold a club in left hand with left wrist cocked level and vertical. How would you have to hold a club to have both those wrist alignments occurring at the same time.
[/quote][quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1416330514' post='10466943']
What grip type do you use? Hold a club in right hand with right wrist bent level and vertical. Now at the same time hold a club in left hand with left wrist cocked level and vertical. How would you have to hold a club to have both those wrist alignments occurring at the same time.
[/quote]

left wrist can't be cocked and level at the same time, whether vertical or not. Level is partially uncocked

[pick it up]

When you hold on to a round object like a golf grip things get interesting in the wrist movement because of the finger position and their constraint. I believe Iteach is spot on.


[url="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18929190"]http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18929190[/url][url="http://youtu.be/NkQrSqIRGrQ"] [/url]


[media=]http://youtu.be/NkQrSqIRGrQ[/media]

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1416343854' post='10468297']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1416330514' post='10466943']
What grip type do you use? Hold a club in right hand with right wrist bent level and vertical. Now at the same time hold a club in left hand with left wrist cocked level and vertical. How would you have to hold a club to have both those wrist alignments occurring at the same time.
[/quote][quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1416330514' post='10466943']
What grip type do you use? Hold a club in right hand with right wrist bent level and vertical. Now at the same time hold a club in left hand with left wrist cocked level and vertical. How would you have to hold a club to have both those wrist alignments occurring at the same time.
[/quote]

left wrist can't be cocked and level at the same time, whether vertical or not. Level is partially uncocked
[/quote]

Meant cocked flat and vertical. I mispoke typing on a phone quickly. You knew exactly what I meant and avoided answering the question

[pick it up]

The question that lingers for me is what is TGM Physics as opposed to just Physics? Can you give an answer to that Mizuno? Wondering if there is something different in the 2 physics?

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1416331939' post='10467111']
He can't post a picture because it wouldn't look like a backswing and the left wrist wouldn't be cocked. He said he does it so he should be able to post a picture of himself with a fully cocked left wrist but a level right wrist.
[/quote]

Wow. Extend both arms up to the top of the TSP with a level, bent right wrist and partially cocked, flat left wrist. Now bend the right elbow to your max til the upper right arm is against the torso, cocking the left wrist. I get 90 degs with short arms, so someone with long arms should get 90 degs before the upper arm reaches the torso.

The purpose of this is to get a direct equivalence between left wrist c0ck and right elbow c0ck. Then you can reduce the swing to simply swinging the right forearm, which, with the bent, level right wrist, is in perfect impact alignment. Homer Kelley called this THE MAGIC OF THE RIGHT FOREARM.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='pick it up' timestamp='1416344939' post='10468363']
The question that lingers for me is what is TGM Physics as opposed to just Physics? Can you give an answer to that Mizuno? Wondering if there is something different in the 2 physics?
[/quote]

See the post above this one.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1416344612' post='10468343']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1416343854' post='10468297']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1416330514' post='10466943']
What grip type do you use? Hold a club in right hand with right wrist bent level and vertical. Now at the same time hold a club in left hand with left wrist cocked level and vertical. How would you have to hold a club to have both those wrist alignments occurring at the same time.
[/quote][quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1416330514' post='10466943']
What grip type do you use? Hold a club in right hand with right wrist bent level and vertical. Now at the same time hold a club in left hand with left wrist cocked level and vertical. How would you have to hold a club to have both those wrist alignments occurring at the same time.
[/quote]

left wrist can't be cocked and level at the same time, whether vertical or not. Level is partially uncocked
[/quote]

Meant cocked flat and vertical. I mispoke typing on a phone quickly. You knew exactly what I meant and avoided answering the question
[/quote]

No I didn't. I have no idea what someone who says that every swing is hitting and swinging and the only difference between the two is feel, is thinking.

[pick it up]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1416346541' post='10468527']
[quote name='pick it up' timestamp='1416344939' post='10468363']
The question that lingers for me is what is TGM Physics as opposed to just Physics? Can you give an answer to that Mizuno? Wondering if there is something different in the 2 physics?
[/quote]

See the post below.
[/quote]



I thought TGM must have a different type of physics especially since you believe that you can have a right wrist holding a round object/grip with a long shaft and attached to it a weight/clubhead and swing that unit around and up and in and the force of that movement wouldn't affect that wrist joint in a cocking motion.

Just the fact of grabbing the round grip makes the wrist change position. Harvey Pennick said the wrist c0ck is nothing more than one making a fist with their hand.