Some ideas about the trail arm straightening

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='Biomateur' timestamp='1416261990' post='10462571']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1416260970' post='10462485']
[quote name='Biomateur' timestamp='1416260484' post='10462443']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1416259840' post='10462385'][...]a full backswing where right wrist is level.
[/quote]

Physically not possible.
[/quote]

Only if you define a full BS as one with right wrist c0ck.
[/quote]

No. Range of movement in a joint + momentum. Not possible to overcome this during a fast motion.
[/quote]

Not true if the right wrist is kept bent and level, momentum only increases the bend past impact fix amount, and doesn't have to c0ck it, unless the player let's it. Cocking the right wrist makes the golf swing much more difficult and high maintenance. Even the TGM turncoat BManz admitted that once, although he's probably forgotten.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oq5MNeQiiXA

[GaryRead]

Is there not a range between players that show less up c0ck than others? Just like everything in the golf swing, there is a broad spectrum.

[dereckbc]

I am not going to get into a shouting match but as an instructor if you let your arms disconnect from the body, the swing is DOA. In a proper setup the right or trailing elbow is bent pointing at your right hip ans should give you a clue to what is going on.

McClean and some teaching pros teach Narrow-Wide-Narrow and if you are extremely athletic can be effective but takes great discipline to execute. In that method you push the club away from the body with the right arm in the backswing to get the extension. But the very first move at the top is to drop the right elbow and glue it to your side, then turn through with the shoulders. The right elbow never leaves the body until your hands pass the center of you torso as the right arm rolls over the left.

For me my mind set or feel is simple cover the ball with the heel of your right hand at impact. Only way to get there is with LAG and relaxed arms and hands. Raymond Floyd and Bernard Langer has a great clip to demonstrate the technique. Floyd takes it one step further because it is the key to control backspin and solid contact. Floyd puts it like this. Hold to take off back spin, let it go to generate backspin. Hogan and Chi-Chi have also commented on this very feeling. After a tournament in an interview Chi-Chi commented he really gave his right and he!! today. Hogan constantly said he wished he had two right hands. Both learned how to control it like all pros do. Some do it naturally from solid fundamentals, while others struggle their whole resulting from poor fundamentals and swing path.

My motto is a golf swing is extremely easy, we just let the peice of meat between our ears muck it up. There are only 3 things to know. How to set up, get to the top relaxed, and turn from the ground up and let the club swing.

[iteachgolf]

 

 

Still say its level?

 

 

When your wrist is level is the pinkie finger/bottom edge of hand parallel to forearm or is there an angle there. I know when my pinkie/bottom of hand is parallel to lower forearm my wrist are cocked

[iteachgolf]

[media=]http://youtu.be/SS6zhKS5cBE[/media]

Level wrist & stationary head.

[ChipDriver]

With respect to the OP - isn't this simply the "classic sports power position" except at a different angle? I learned golf pretty simply - my instructor gave me a baseball instead of a club, and also a football.

A golfer's address position is very very similar to a quarterback about to take a snap....hands in the center, athletic stance, bent spine forward. Without moving your feet - get in position to throw the ball down to the tight end on the left end of the line. If you freeze the action - you're in the exact same position as a backswing. A golfer's address position is also very very similar to a shortstop about to field a bouncing ball hit right to him....if he had to fire it directly to the 2nd baseman without moving his feet - again -it's the exact same position as the backswing.

When you throw the ball your hips rotate, trunk unwinds, shoulders unwind and the elbow leads towards the target, and the forearm gets "narrow" as it flexes like a spring, then gets 'wide' as it unleashes the power and at the end, the hand and wrist "flick" like the end of a whip - propelling the ball to the target.

Despite my poor description - what any QB or baseball pitcher throwing...it's the exact same moving parts in golf. The tricky part for a lot of folks is the "throw" - simply b/c it's on a different plane....it feels like you're throwing a football and baseball "upside down".

But it's the same motion for a majority of amateurs.


At least to me.

The simple swing cue is: get to the top of your backswing in the sports position/waiters position - then as you unwind, 1) wait until the elbow is pointing in the direction of the ball, then 2) try to push the butt of your right hand down the target line (palm side down). Another way to think about it - "straighten the right arm as fast as you can down the target line". For many of us it will be a night vs. day different in compression and direction. For the advanced sports guy - pull that left shoulder back (like you throw a pitch or a football) a push that right arm straight.

Simple and effective.

[MMB1500]

You can't straighten the right arm too fast too soon. If the right arm is straight at impact rather than bent it's because shoulder stalled not because the arms are firing too fast. Right arm must begin straightening before wrist begin uncocking. Coming down immediately, hands need to move away from the right shoulder down and forward getting wider. This results it more "lag" not less. The majority of people have the right arm way too bent and back halfway down and are generally the ones who end up with it straight at impact. Doesn't begin straightening fast enough or soon enough, so then they go "oops" the shoulder stops and they straighten it completely very late to get down to the golf ball.

 

 

Look how far his hands are from his right shoulder and how straight right arm is early

 

 

 

Now look at Phil. His hands don't move away from his rear shoulder in transition. His rear arm is straight at impact because it didn't start straightening soon enough fast enough. Which I know sounds crazy. But look at the 3rd photos in each sequence. Phil's rear shoulder works down early with his hands (why he looks narrow) but between the 2nd and 3rd photo his rear shoulder has stopped working down in an effort to get his hands down and away from the shoulder late. This shoulder stalling because his rear arms wasn't straightening soon enough is why it was too straight at impact.

 

 

 

Now compare Phil and Sergio in transition. Phil's rear arm is still bent 90* and hands haven't moved away from rear shoulder at all. Sergio on the other hand has his hands TWICE as far away from his rear shoulder and his right arm is bent maybe 120* at the point.

 

 

Sergio straightening the rear arm soon allowing it to get away from his rear shoulder allows his shoulder to turn FASTER through impact and his rear shoulder never stalls.

 

 

 

Same with Hogan. Hands moved away from rear shoulder immediately.

 

Dan, trolls aside, thank you for your contribution to this thread and indeed on the site in general. The info about the right arm straightening on the downswing is a nugget. Is it fair to say this action also helps sync up your arms and body? When I try this, my body turns faster as a reaction to the right arm straightening yet both seem to be a lot more synched up.

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1416265171' post='10462867']
[quote name='Biomateur' timestamp='1416261990' post='10462571']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1416260970' post='10462485']
[quote name='Biomateur' timestamp='1416260484' post='10462443']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1416259840' post='10462385'][...]a full backswing where right wrist is level.
[/quote]

Physically not possible.
[/quote]

Only if you define a full BS as one with right wrist c0ck.
[/quote]

No. Range of movement in a joint + momentum. Not possible to overcome this during a fast motion.
[/quote]

Not true if the right wrist is kept bent and level, momentum only increases the bend past impact fix amount, and doesn't have to c0ck it, unless the player let's it. Cocking the right wrist makes the golf swing much more difficult and high maintenance. Even the TGM turncoat BManz admitted that once, although he's probably forgotten.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oq5MNeQiiXA
[/quote]
You can not see if the wrist is cocked in a dtl view. Not sure why that is hard to understand. The photos clearly show the right wrist is not level. It seems like you think a wrist has to be cocked OR bent. They are not mutually exclusive. You are looking at the wrist from a useless angle and seeing what you want to see.

[golow]

Am I off with the following ?

Straightening the right elbow once pivot is established to lead foot causes the shaft to drop slightly under plane, losing some wrist c0ck but adding right wrist hinge (DF) due to vector from depth towards target line. From FO looks like increased lag (a la Sergio) due to shaft shallow. When I do this in sync with body it feels shallow, less hit more swing than expected and a more forward low point.

You (Dan) gave me instruction to make/keep more room for the arms (less spin out and EE) and this is what I've been doing with my trail arm. Your description, pics and selfie vids validate it. Unless I'm wrong.

golow(TM)

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='golow' timestamp='1416275748' post='10463965']
Am I off with the following ?

Straightening the right elbow once pivot is established to lead foot causes the shaft to drop slightly under plane, losing some wrist c0ck but adding right wrist hinge (DF) due to vector from depth towards target line. From FO looks like increased lag (a la Sergio) due to shaft shallow. When I do this in sync with body it feels shallow, less hit more swing than expected and a more forward low point.

You (Dan) gave me instruction to make/keep more room for the arms (less spin out and EE) and this is what I've been doing with my trail arm. Your description, pics and selfie vids validate it. Unless I'm wrong.

golow(TM)
[/quote]
Straightening r arm will move left arm off chest and down and/or uncock left wrist. How it affects shaft will depend on wrist alignments.

[golow]

[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1416276420' post='10464061']
Straightening r arm will move left arm off chest and down and/or uncock left wrist. How it affects shaft will depend on wrist alignments.
[/quote]

Makes sense and good ! I was told to get my lead arm off my chest ... so I tried by pulling in down, or getting lead shoulder to separate from chin low left (thanks Johnny Miller). Hit fades all year with a low point all over the place. Trail arm feel is the key for me.

Thanks JP

golow(TM)

[size=1]PS I'm lefty but speak the golf swing as a righty ... southies may excommunicate me[/size]

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='golow' timestamp='1416276909' post='10464139']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1416276420' post='10464061']
Straightening r arm will move left arm off chest and down and/or uncock left wrist. How it affects shaft will depend on wrist alignments.
[/quote]

Makes sense and good ! I was told to get my lead arm off my chest ... so I tried by pulling in down, or getting lead shoulder to separate from chin low left (thanks Johnny Miller). Hit fades all year with a low point all over the place. Trail arm feel is the key for me.

Thanks JP

golow(TM)

[size=1]PS I'm lefty but speak the golf swing as a righty ... southies may excommunicate me[/size]
[/quote]
I fight the same issue. Feels like right arm is straightening down behind the ball when I'm swinging good.

[chrisgilly09]

This was an absolute hiding, good stuff Dan

[Silky]

Iteach Dan has validated my thinking, I think. The lead side is responsible for the [b]around[/b] action and the trail side is responsible for the [b]up and down[/b] action. The pivot drives the around action through the lead shoulder joint, the hands and the club head will tend to follow the orbit of the lead shoulder joint. The lead shoulder joint, the hands and the club head, define a plane - the left arm flying wedge LAFW (I know Reasonability dislikes this concept). Without the presence of other forces in the down swing, the LAFW will fly around the pivot with its plane perpendicular to the pivot axis which is too high above the ball.

[sharedmedia=core:attachments:2340067]

In my thinking, it is the straightening action of the trail arm that will tilt the LAFW down to meet the ball.
I have no problem with the idea of straightening the trail arm without uncocking of the wrists. In fact, we should ensure that this up/down action will not bleed into the around action and interfere with the flailing/releasing action of the lead side.

With this concept I can freely and fully perform the around action in an unhitched motion leaving the responsibility of the trail side to bring the orbit of the club head down to meet the ball.

[Rodabodem]

I don't see how someone can hinge their wrists without cocking the right wrist/hand.... I have rather tight wrists due to martial arts injuries and still c0ck my right wrist..

[chrisgilly09]

To be honest I actually thought that the r wrist shouldn't c0ck before, and I never got the club to elevate enough...that was dumb

[thekru]

So wrists hinge and c0ck...correct? I'll take elbow pitch for $500 Alex...

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='Silky' timestamp='1416280121' post='10464523']
Iteach Dan has validated my thinking, I think. The lead side is responsible for the [b]around[/b] action and the trail side is responsible for the [b]up and down[/b] action. The pivot drives the around action through the lead shoulder joint, the hands and the club head will tend to follow the orbit of the lead shoulder joint. The lead shoulder joint, the hands and the club head, define a plane - the left arm flying wedge LAFW (I know Reasonability dislikes this concept). Without the presence of other forces in the down swing, the LAFW will fly around the pivot with its plane perpendicular to the pivot axis which is too high above the ball.



In my thinking, it is the straightening action of the trail arm that will tilt the LAFW down to meet the ball.
I have no problem with the idea of straightening the trail arm without uncocking of the wrists. In fact, we should ensure that this up/down action will not bleed into the around action and interfere with the flailing/releasing action of the lead side.

With this concept I can freely and fully perform the around action in an unhitched motion leaving the responsibility of the trail side to bring the orbit of the club head down to meet the ball.
[/quote]
That works IMO though is not "the" way. It's "a" way. Pivot can't just carry arms though. Some rigidity is necessary whether someone feels left arm blast off of chest or right arm pushing left arm down and off of chest. Some may feel left wrist cocking up and down is the vertical and right arm straightening and rolling with pivot is the horizontal.

[FutureOfTheTour]

The only way to solve this. Joe tape a ruler onto ur forearm at address half on forearm half over ur thumb. Swing to top dont bend the ruler!! If you do it then you have a level left wrist by Dan's definition.

[ej002]

[quote name='chrisgilly09' timestamp='1416281402' post='10464673']
To be honest I actually thought that the r wrist shouldn't c0ck before, and I never got the club to elevate enough...that was dumb
[/quote]

Feel like the double coxk was more about the right elbow movement - or lack there of... As 8 said - load the wrist not then elbow. I think I just realized what the means

[FutureOfTheTour]

I am not taking sides or saying anyone has the better opinion as I have never read TGM. But think this argument needs to end and should get back to the right arm and off the wrist hinge issue.

[ChipDriver]

https://youtu.be/m3t6y7kxBXc

See 2:20 - that's what the arm does in baseball, and golf....same thing, just different degrees of effort.

[chrisgilly09]

Ej the 2x c0ck is about the L wrist, not the right. I've actually read tgm thank you

[ej002]

[quote name='chrisgilly09' timestamp='1416285029' post='10464949']
Ej the 2x c0ck is about the L wrist, not the right. I've actually read tgm thank you
[/quote]

Thought it just meant both wrists c0ck - like Hogan and Couples

[chrisgilly09]

It means L wrist is both c0cked and bent, so cupped in layman's terms. Wrist should be c0cked only, it's shown somewhere in chapter 10

[Biomateur]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1416265171' post='10462867']
[quote name='Biomateur' timestamp='1416261990' post='10462571']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1416260970' post='10462485']
[quote name='Biomateur' timestamp='1416260484' post='10462443']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1416259840' post='10462385'][...]a full backswing where right wrist is level.
[/quote]

Physically not possible.
[/quote]

Only if you define a full BS as one with right wrist c0ck.
[/quote]

No. Range of movement in a joint + momentum. Not possible to overcome this during a fast motion.
[/quote]

Not true if the right wrist is kept bent and level, momentum only increases the bend past impact fix amount, and doesn't have to c0ck it, unless the player let's it. Cocking the right wrist makes the golf swing much more difficult and high maintenance. Even the TGM turncoat BManz admitted that once, although he's probably forgotten.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oq5MNeQiiXA
[/quote]

No. Pure hinging is very rare. Usually it is being paired with slight c0ck of the wrist. In case of a golf swing, the c0ck angle is certainly bigger due to momentum I've already talked about.

[Reasonability]

[quote name='Silky' timestamp='1416280121' post='10464523']
Iteach Dan has validated my thinking, I think. The lead side is responsible for the [b]around[/b] action and the trail side is responsible for the [b]up and down[/b] action. The pivot drives the around action through the lead shoulder joint, the hands and the club head will tend to follow the orbit of the lead shoulder joint. The lead shoulder joint, the hands and the club head, define a plane - the left arm flying wedge LAFW (I know Reasonability dislikes this concept). Without the presence of other forces in the down swing, the LAFW will fly around the pivot with its plane perpendicular to the pivot axis which is too high above the ball.



In my thinking, it is the straightening action of the trail arm that will tilt the LAFW down to meet the ball.
I have no problem with the idea of straightening the trail arm without uncocking of the wrists. In fact, we should ensure that this up/down action will not bleed into the around action and interfere with the flailing/releasing action of the lead side.

With this concept I can freely and fully perform the around action in an unhitched motion leaving the responsibility of the trail side to bring the orbit of the club head down to meet the ball.
[/quote]

You always impress me with your focus and posts Silky -- That's been true since we "met" here on WRX many moons ago. LOL. I respect your interest and study around the kinetic chain and the fact you keep an open mind. Seems like you appreciate the sharing above who just has to be absolutely right or dead wrong. Hope your quest continues to be rewarding my friend.

[Golf nerd]

You can't straighten the right arm too fast too soon. If the right arm is straight at impact rather than bent it's because shoulder stalled not because the arms are firing too fast. Right arm must begin straightening before wrist begin uncocking. Coming down immediately, hands need to move away from the right shoulder down and forward getting wider. This results it more "lag" not less. The majority of people have the right arm way too bent and back halfway down and are generally the ones who end up with it straight at impact. Doesn't begin straightening fast enough or soon enough, so then they go "oops" the shoulder stops and they straighten it completely very late to get down to the golf ball.

 

 

Look how far his hands are from his right shoulder and how straight right arm is early

 

 

 

Now look at Phil. His hands don't move away from his rear shoulder in transition. His rear arm is straight at impact because it didn't start straightening soon enough fast enough. Which I know sounds crazy. But look at the 3rd photos in each sequence. Phil's rear shoulder works down early with his hands (why he looks narrow) but between the 2nd and 3rd photo his rear shoulder has stopped working down in an effort to get his hands down and away from the shoulder late. This shoulder stalling because his rear arms wasn't straightening soon enough is why it was too straight at impact.

 

 

 

Now compare Phil and Sergio in transition. Phil's rear arm is still bent 90* and hands haven't moved away from rear shoulder at all. Sergio on the other hand has his hands TWICE as far away from his rear shoulder and his right arm is bent maybe 120* at the point.

 

 

Sergio straightening the rear arm soon allowing it to get away from his rear shoulder allows his shoulder to turn FASTER through impact and his rear shoulder never stalls.

 

 

 

Same with Hogan. Hands moved away from rear shoulder immediately.

 

Again, I really appreciate the effort Dan makes with his knowledgeable posts. I personally understand his approach and think it makes a lot of sense. However what confuses me is that Monte seem to disagree. I watched his video, where he even quotes Johnny Miller, who made the same suggestion like Dan, to pull the butt of the handle into a wall as drill. Is this general disagreement due to different teaching concepts or is there something I miss?

 

[media=]

[/media]

[JJ C]

You can't straighten the right arm too fast too soon. If the right arm is straight at impact rather than bent it's because shoulder stalled not because the arms are firing too fast. Right arm must begin straightening before wrist begin uncocking. Coming down immediately, hands need to move away from the right shoulder down and forward getting wider. This results it more "lag" not less. The majority of people have the right arm way too bent and back halfway down and are generally the ones who end up with it straight at impact. Doesn't begin straightening fast enough or soon enough, so then they go "oops" the shoulder stops and they straighten it completely very late to get down to the golf ball.

 

 

Look how far his hands are from his right shoulder and how straight right arm is early

 

 

 

Now look at Phil. His hands don't move away from his rear shoulder in transition. His rear arm is straight at impact because it didn't start straightening soon enough fast enough. Which I know sounds crazy. But look at the 3rd photos in each sequence. Phil's rear shoulder works down early with his hands (why he looks narrow) but between the 2nd and 3rd photo his rear shoulder has stopped working down in an effort to get his hands down and away from the shoulder late. This shoulder stalling because his rear arms wasn't straightening soon enough is why it was too straight at impact.

 

 

 

Now compare Phil and Sergio in transition. Phil's rear arm is still bent 90* and hands haven't moved away from rear shoulder at all. Sergio on the other hand has his hands TWICE as far away from his rear shoulder and his right arm is bent maybe 120* at the point.

 

 

Sergio straightening the rear arm soon allowing it to get away from his rear shoulder allows his shoulder to turn FASTER through impact and his rear shoulder never stalls.

 

 

 

Same with Hogan. Hands moved away from rear shoulder immediately.

 

Again, I really appreciate the effort Dan makes with his knowledgeable posts. I personally understand his approach and think it makes a lot of sense. However what confuses me is that Monte seem to disagree. I watched his video, where he even quotes Johnny Miller, who made the same suggestion like Dan, to pull the butt of the handle into a wall as drill. Is this general disagreement due to different teaching concepts or is there something I miss?

 

[media=]

[/media]

 

Nerd,

 

You don't go for that "keep the upper body back" junk do you?

[Golf nerd]

[quote name='JJ C' timestamp='1416297900' post='10465405']
Nerd,

You don't go for that "keep the upper body back" junk do you?
[/quote]

Honestly I don't know what is working best. I swing the club since 30 years now and was always more on the upper body back side. The centered swing of Foley seem to have a bs tilt component that S&T doesn't have. However when I see Justin Rose who is fighting a bit his old swing pattern or Tiger with his sometimes weird shot shape I don't know where we at in teaching.

Dan makes some valid points like Monte and when I compare with my limited insight of both teachers I am not 100% sure what to believe. Your idea of a universal fundamental based swing concept seem to be another step in the teaching evolution, however nobody knows what that shall be- except you I guess?