Oceans Eleven Confessions to break a man's heart....

[DeNinny]

Can someone translate "And screw the USGA!" to French?

 

A new acronym. FUSGA! :D

 

So....FUSGA, sil vous plait! (I'll refer to me Canadian friends on the spelling)

 

Ok so as OGA member #7 I hereby propose the following official unofficial rally cry:

 

"Laissez les bon temps rouler, et FUSGA, s'il vous plait!"

[PeanutsDaddy]

I'll stick to hockey.

 

I enjoyed watching Pavel tear up the eyes. One of the greatest pure goal scorers in NHL history. Too bad his career was cut short due to injury.

 

That all said, he was no "Great One". Given the changes to the style of play I don't think we'll see another Gretzky.

[PeanutsDaddy]

Can someone translate "And screw the USGA!" to French?

 

A new acronym. FUSGA! :D

 

So....FUSGA, sil vous plait! (I'll refer to me Canadian friends on the spelling)

 

Ok so as OGA member #7 I hereby propose the following official unofficial rally cry:

 

"Laissez les bon temps rouler, et FUSGA, s'il vous plait!"

 

My real name is Michel but I shun my French heritage.

 

Vive le Canada!!!!

[DeNinny]

I'll stick to hockey.

 

I enjoyed watching Pavel tear up the eyes. One of the greatest pure goal scorers in NHL history. Too bad his career was cut short due to injury.

 

That all said, he was no "Great One". Given the changes to the style of play I don't think we'll see another Gretzky.

 

Yes Pavel could handle the puck and made scoring look easy.

 

The one thing I always liked about Gretzky was Janet Jones. LOL I confess that I might have had a poster of her in a sweaty workout leotard.

[Conrad1953]

IYHO it does. It's conceptually 100%. accurate.

 

Edit: And please note that if you argue that the differences are not that significant, then you are stating the same thing about the "benefits" of high bounce and rounded leading edge. The physics are all based on the magnitude of how the dimensions CHANGE. If they don't change significantly, they don't do anything significantly.

 

It's that drawing LOL. It's deja vu all over again and neither of those

resemble a real golf club.

 

And my Mac blades and Ping G25s would look identical in such a

drawing. I know Mizunos have razor thin toplines and leading edges

but these Mac blades I have don't have a thin topline or a sharp

leading edge and actually have some offset. They're pretty GI for a

blade and thus very playable. :D

 

See the word CONCEPTUAL. BIG STU knows exactly where I'm coming from.

 

I SAW the word CONCEPTUAL lol.

 

And Stu is always careful to mention he is talking about "his" game and

other's mileage may vary. He doesn't say that what is good for him is

necessarily good for EVERYONE.

 

And it just so happens that BIG STU's reasoning was completely based on the TRUE science. Hence my post TO HIM.

 

And to be clear, when I post about the science, it applies to EVERYONE because we all live in the same universe bound by the same laws of science. Whether or not someone wants to align their game with it or not is irrelevant. As we both agreed, the psychological impact of how one perceives a scientifically supported benefit or detriment has more of an impact than the pure science of it.

 

So, if low bounce isn't for you and YOUR GAME, NO PROBLEM. Just realize that the science doesn't support the benefit of a high bounce club. And yes this applies to EVERYONE in the known universe.

 

On of the most celebrated wedges of all time (Ping Eye2 SW) has 17.5 degrees

of bounce.

 

You can choose how much bounce you want to expose on any given shot

depending on how you set up and address the ball.

 

Bounce doesn't "cut" through anything, it causes the club head to "bounce"

off the ground and keep the leading edge from digging.

 

If you wanna hit flop shots off tight lies then low or no bounce can be good.

However, if your lie is the least bit fluffy you can go right under the ball and

whiff completely. You can still hit a flop shot off a tight lie with a medium

bounce wedge. It depends on your angle of attack.

 

High bounce is not evil and neither is low bounce in and of themselves. It

just depends on the player. I think nearly every iron made has some bounce

just like every iron made has some offset.

 

I once watched a Dan Carraher video on here where he was hitting flop

shots with a 3 iron just to prove you can hit many different shots with any

iron.

[mdgboxx]

Just played 9. Birdied 3 of the first 4. Lol. Ended up @ even 36.

 

Didn't feel like one of those special rounds. It felt more like the changes I've been making are starting to set in. Pretty happy.

 

I have a Winn midsized grip on my Anser 2. Had 13 putts for 9 holes. ;)

 

Out of the blue this morning, I decided to change my whole set up when I putt. Squared it up. Ball forward of center and concentrated on my rhythm. The putts that I missed were hit like I wanted, I just didn't trust the break and missed the on the low (amateur) side. Hate missing putts low or short.

 

Oh well. Sleepy time. Y'all have a good day.

 

Technically, it would add up to 26 for 18. That is one monster of a putting round. Unknowingly, you're setting goals for me. :download:

 

Mdg, I only hit 4 greens. Lol. 3 birds and 2 up and downs. So, 5 - 1 putts. I've never really been a green hitting machine. Puts a lot of pressure on my short game.

 

I always say: "If I don't birdie the 1st, I can't birdie them all"

 

You want to talk pressure, you've come to the right place :rofl:

 

MC, you did it this one time, now lose the pressure, and go out there and do it again!

 

We havin' fun, or what?

[DeNinny]

It's that drawing LOL. It's deja vu all over again and neither of those

resemble a real golf club.

 

And my Mac blades and Ping G25s would look identical in such a

drawing. I know Mizunos have razor thin toplines and leading edges

but these Mac blades I have don't have a thin topline or a sharp

leading edge and actually have some offset. They're pretty GI for a

blade and thus very playable. :D

 

See the word CONCEPTUAL. BIG STU knows exactly where I'm coming from.

 

I SAW the word CONCEPTUAL lol.

 

And Stu is always careful to mention he is talking about "his" game and

other's mileage may vary. He doesn't say that what is good for him is

necessarily good for EVERYONE.

 

And it just so happens that BIG STU's reasoning was completely based on the TRUE science. Hence my post TO HIM.

 

And to be clear, when I post about the science, it applies to EVERYONE because we all live in the same universe bound by the same laws of science. Whether or not someone wants to align their game with it or not is irrelevant. As we both agreed, the psychological impact of how one perceives a scientifically supported benefit or detriment has more of an impact than the pure science of it.

 

So, if low bounce isn't for you and YOUR GAME, NO PROBLEM. Just realize that the science doesn't support the benefit of a high bounce club. And yes this applies to EVERYONE in the known universe.

 

On of the most celebrated wedges of all time (Ping Eye2 SW) has 17.5 degrees

of bounce.

 

You can choose how much bounce you want to expose on any given shot

depending on how you set up and address the ball.

 

Bounce doesn't "cut" through anything, it causes the club head to "bounce"

off the ground and keep the leading edge from digging.

 

If you wanna hit flop shots off tight lies then low or no bounce can be good.

However, if your lie is the least bit fluffy you can go right under the ball and

whiff completely. You can still hit a flop shot off a tight lie with a medium

bounce wedge. It depends on your angle of attack.

 

High bounce is not evil and neither is low bounce in and of themselves. It

just depends on the player. I think nearly every iron made has some bounce

just like every iron made has some offset.

 

I once watched a Dan Carraher video on here where he was hitting flop

shots with a 3 iron just to prove you can hit many different shots with any

iron.

 

Conrad you have clearly chosen your own version of the science.

 

It still boils down to how well the club moves through the turf. Whether you call it "cuts" or not. Bounce does NOT prevent you from digging. It slows DOWN the clubhead MORE whilst digging. It has more curvature that is NOT streamlined, as well as a lower bounce club, in the direction of the club path, this curvature ADDs drag force on the clubhead. The dirt has to move MORE around it. This SLOWS the club down. This physics does NOT support the prevention of digging. It requires that MORE energy be put into the shot in order to dig the same amount. This is unequivocally BAD for maintaining clubhead velocity.

 

If you think all your other reasons override this fundamental issue, then no problem, as stated, you have the psychology to override the physics.

 

Note this as well: if you take a divot with a high bounce wedge, you are NOT "bouncing" through anything. You are CUTting through the ground. And again the ADDED curvature from the bounce ADDs drag.

 

The issue doesn't get any more basic than the increased drag. And this is added drag through grass too, not just turf. The drag physics is the same regardless if it is dirt, grass, or even air.

[Conrad1953]

See the word CONCEPTUAL. BIG STU knows exactly where I'm coming from.

 

I SAW the word CONCEPTUAL lol.

 

And Stu is always careful to mention he is talking about "his" game and

other's mileage may vary. He doesn't say that what is good for him is

necessarily good for EVERYONE.

 

And it just so happens that BIG STU's reasoning was completely based on the TRUE science. Hence my post TO HIM.

 

And to be clear, when I post about the science, it applies to EVERYONE because we all live in the same universe bound by the same laws of science. Whether or not someone wants to align their game with it or not is irrelevant. As we both agreed, the psychological impact of how one perceives a scientifically supported benefit or detriment has more of an impact than the pure science of it.

 

So, if low bounce isn't for you and YOUR GAME, NO PROBLEM. Just realize that the science doesn't support the benefit of a high bounce club. And yes this applies to EVERYONE in the known universe.

 

Science without the mathematics? How can that be? Conjectural theory. My good sir, I need the proofs. I need equations. <I jest, sorta.>

 

My conceptual diagram for improved wedge play. Firm wrists without getting "flippy":

 

 

 

LOL, see my conceptual "proof" to Matt J. I leave out the equations for simplicity's sake. If it takes mathematical proof to understand that a dull leading edge takes MORE force and energy to go through a substrate, then instead I suggest simply to try to cut a steak with a razor blade and a butter knife.

 

As to your diagram, I completely understand it CONCEPTUALLY. (But just to nitpick, the ball you drew is not round and that clubface looks nothing like my wedges. Plus the grooves are too spread out.)

 

Other than bunker shots and flop shots (with an open face), when are you

wanting to hit substrate first? In my mind it is a mistake to hit substrate first

most of the time. Other than in deep rough I don't see where a sharp leading

edge is a benefit.

 

If you have a sharp leading edge and little bounce you're gonna get no help

and dig to China if you get a little steep and hit slightly behind the ball whereas

with some more bounce and a softer leading edge the club is more likely to

bounce and not dig and you still get a serviceable shot.

 

Are irons really being made these days with razor sharp leading edges and no

bounce? Seems to me that razor sharp leading edges would not remain that

way very long before they got dinged up hitting the ground over and over.....at

least with soft forgings. Methinks you would have to be sharpening them on a

regular basis to keep them sharp.

 

F51. Love your drawing, lol, and the smiling face!

[mdgboxx]

 

 

 

I SAW the word CONCEPTUAL lol.

 

And Stu is always careful to mention he is talking about "his" game and

other's mileage may vary. He doesn't say that what is good for him is

necessarily good for EVERYONE.

 

And it just so happens that BIG STU's reasoning was completely based on the TRUE science. Hence my post TO HIM.

 

And to be clear, when I post about the science, it applies to EVERYONE because we all live in the same universe bound by the same laws of science. Whether or not someone wants to align their game with it or not is irrelevant. As we both agreed, the psychological impact of how one perceives a scientifically supported benefit or detriment has more of an impact than the pure science of it.

 

So, if low bounce isn't for you and YOUR GAME, NO PROBLEM. Just realize that the science doesn't support the benefit of a high bounce club. And yes this applies to EVERYONE in the known universe.

 

On of the most celebrated wedges of all time (Ping Eye2 SW) has 17.5 degrees

of bounce.

 

You can choose how much bounce you want to expose on any given shot

depending on how you set up and address the ball.

 

Bounce doesn't "cut" through anything, it causes the club head to "bounce"

off the ground and keep the leading edge from digging.

 

If you wanna hit flop shots off tight lies then low or no bounce can be good.

However, if your lie is the least bit fluffy you can go right under the ball and

whiff completely. You can still hit a flop shot off a tight lie with a medium

bounce wedge. It depends on your angle of attack.

 

High bounce is not evil and neither is low bounce in and of themselves. It

just depends on the player. I think nearly every iron made has some bounce

just like every iron made has some offset.

 

I once watched a Dan Carraher video on here where he was hitting flop

shots with a 3 iron just to prove you can hit many different shots with any

iron.

 

Seve Ballesteros, RIP, still a child, was practicing on the beach with a 3 iron.

 

I believe the Dan vid, with the 3i, was posted on here quite a while back.....Impressive, to say the least. I wonder if it's still on here?

 

I've also seen Monty hit a 300 yrd drive from his knees.

[Michael C.]

High bounce seeks a path of least resistance which is more shallow.

 

It's like cutting with a dull knife.

 

A thinner sharper blade is easier to force in the cut.

 

In sand and fluffy lies you HAVE to be more precise with less bounce.

[mdgboxx]

Bure was quick, no doubt. The fastest skaters that I ever saw in the flesh were Yvan Cournoyer, Sergi Federov and Paul Coffey. But that's like arguing GOAT in anything.

 

No one was ever allowed to check Gretzky. Hit the "Great One", a five minute major roughing penalty was automatic.

 

IDK if his record has been reached/broken, but Yvan Cournoyer had the most powerful wrist shot in Hockey. And yes, one of the fastest...Quite a feat for a 5'7"......The Roadrunner!

[DeNinny]

I SAW the word CONCEPTUAL lol.

 

And Stu is always careful to mention he is talking about "his" game and

other's mileage may vary. He doesn't say that what is good for him is

necessarily good for EVERYONE.

 

And it just so happens that BIG STU's reasoning was completely based on the TRUE science. Hence my post TO HIM.

 

And to be clear, when I post about the science, it applies to EVERYONE because we all live in the same universe bound by the same laws of science. Whether or not someone wants to align their game with it or not is irrelevant. As we both agreed, the psychological impact of how one perceives a scientifically supported benefit or detriment has more of an impact than the pure science of it.

 

So, if low bounce isn't for you and YOUR GAME, NO PROBLEM. Just realize that the science doesn't support the benefit of a high bounce club. And yes this applies to EVERYONE in the known universe.

 

Science without the mathematics? How can that be? Conjectural theory. My good sir, I need the proofs. I need equations. <I jest, sorta.>

 

My conceptual diagram for improved wedge play. Firm wrists without getting "flippy":

 

 

 

LOL, see my conceptual "proof" to Matt J. I leave out the equations for simplicity's sake. If it takes mathematical proof to understand that a dull leading edge takes MORE force and energy to go through a substrate, then instead I suggest simply to try to cut a steak with a razor blade and a butter knife.

 

As to your diagram, I completely understand it CONCEPTUALLY. (But just to nitpick, the ball you drew is not round and that clubface looks nothing like my wedges. Plus the grooves are too spread out.)

 

Other than bunker shots and flop shots (with an open face), when are you

wanting to hit substrate first? In my mind it is a mistake to hit substrate first

most of the time. Other than in deep rough I don't see where a sharp leading

edge is a benefit.

 

If you have a sharp leading edge and little bounce you're gonna get no help

and dig to China if you get a little steep and hit slightly behind the ball whereas

with some more bounce and a softer leading edge the club is more likely to

bounce and not dig and you still get a serviceable shot.

 

Are irons really being made these days with razor sharp leading edges and no

bounce? Seems to me that razor sharp leading edges would not remain that

way very long before they got dinged up hitting the ground over and over.....at

least with soft forgings. Methinks you would have to be sharpening them on a

regular basis to keep them sharp.

 

F51. Love your drawing, lol, and the smiling face!

 

My explanations are independent of whether or not the substrate is hit first or not. In all cases, the higher bounce wedge is creating more drag force through any substrate. Again, it doesn't get any more simple than this. And so let's continue with this point. If ball contact is the first priority, then bounce has nothing to do with anything! And furthermore and again if ball contact first is the priority, a sharper leading edge, per my CONCEPTUAL drawing, has a greater chance of cleaner ball contact. Whether you draw the leading edge razor sharp like I did or it has some curvature, the issue is the same: it is a RELATIVE difference in the curvature. The sharper leading edge ALWAYS cuts through any media better AND it exposes more flat surface to the ball and fits in the corner of the ball and ground better. By analogy, a women's basket ball will pass through a standard hoop with less chance of hitting the rim than a men's basketball will. Also there is a reason skis are designed to be FLAT against the snow. There is no bow in the ski. If there were more bow, the ski would have more drag force through the snow. This is the same issue as higher bounce. The ski goes fastest when it is flat, not curved. And lastly, the higher bounce puts the literal bottom of the clubhead lower than the less bounce club. This lower bottom has a higher chance of hitting the ground (ALL OTHER THINGS EQUAL LIKE TECHNIQUE!!!) than the lower bounce wedge.

 

So again, based on hitting the substrate last and ball first, the physics of the sharper leading edge is still SUPERIOR to the more rounded leading edge.

 

As to your point about sharp leading edges being too sharp. You nitpick my point. Of course the leading edge has to have some curvature to prevent it from wearing down. I never said the contrary. What I said is that I want as low of a bounce as a manufacturer offers. They clearly are going to design in some bounce and curvature so that WRXers like DeNinny don't go on rants about their poor durability. But again, less bounce is always better from the physics of enabling cleaner ball contact.

 

And no, there is no digging to China when you hit the turf with a low bounce club. The arc of the swing is already predefined by the length the arms can extend. This length is the same whether or not you have a high or low bounce club. You end up digging THE SAME with either club. You just dig SLOWER with the high bounce club.

[DeNinny]

High bounce seeks a path of least resistance which is more shallow.

 

It's like cutting with a dull knife.

 

A thinner sharper blade is easier to force in the cut.

 

In sand and fluffy lies you HAVE to be more precise with less bounce.

 

There is no law of physics that supports this. The overall effective surface area of the face exposed to the ball (relative to the path) is the same. If the face surface area is the same, then the precision required to hit the ball with it is the same.

 

The lower bounce wedge merely glides through the sand and fluffy lie easier than the higher bounce wedge.

[Conrad1953]

 

See the word CONCEPTUAL. BIG STU knows exactly where I'm coming from.

 

I SAW the word CONCEPTUAL lol.

 

And Stu is always careful to mention he is talking about "his" game and

other's mileage may vary. He doesn't say that what is good for him is

necessarily good for EVERYONE.

 

And it just so happens that BIG STU's reasoning was completely based on the TRUE science. Hence my post TO HIM.

 

And to be clear, when I post about the science, it applies to EVERYONE because we all live in the same universe bound by the same laws of science. Whether or not someone wants to align their game with it or not is irrelevant. As we both agreed, the psychological impact of how one perceives a scientifically supported benefit or detriment has more of an impact than the pure science of it.

 

So, if low bounce isn't for you and YOUR GAME, NO PROBLEM. Just realize that the science doesn't support the benefit of a high bounce club. And yes this applies to EVERYONE in the known universe.

 

On of the most celebrated wedges of all time (Ping Eye2 SW) has 17.5 degrees

of bounce.

 

You can choose how much bounce you want to expose on any given shot

depending on how you set up and address the ball.

 

Bounce doesn't "cut" through anything, it causes the club head to "bounce"

off the ground and keep the leading edge from digging.

 

If you wanna hit flop shots off tight lies then low or no bounce can be good.

However, if your lie is the least bit fluffy you can go right under the ball and

whiff completely. You can still hit a flop shot off a tight lie with a medium

bounce wedge. It depends on your angle of attack.

 

High bounce is not evil and neither is low bounce in and of themselves. It

just depends on the player. I think nearly every iron made has some bounce

just like every iron made has some offset.

 

I once watched a Dan Carraher video on here where he was hitting flop

shots with a 3 iron just to prove you can hit many different shots with any

iron.

 

Conrad you have clearly chosen your own version of the science.

 

It still boils down to how well the club moves through the turf. Whether you call it "cuts" or not. Bounce does NOT prevent you from digging. It slows DOWN the clubhead MORE whilst digging. It has more curvature that is NOT streamlined, as well as a lower bounce club, in the direction of the club path, this curvature ADDs drag force on the clubhead. The dirt has to move MORE around it. This SLOWS the club down. This physics does NOT support the prevention of digging. It requires that MORE energy be put into the shot in order to dig the same amount. This is unequivocally BAD for maintaining clubhead velocity.

 

If you think all your other reasons override this fundamental issue, then no problem, as stated, you have the psychology to override the physics.

 

Note this as well: if you take a divot with a high bounce wedge, you are NOT "bouncing" through anything. You are CUTting through the ground. And again the ADDED curvature from the bounce ADDs drag.

 

The issue doesn't get any more basic than the increased drag. And this is added drag through grass too, not just turf. The drag physics is the same regardless if it is dirt, grass, or even air.

 

You can take a divot with a wedge because the angle of attack reduces the

exposed bounce. The max bounce is near the trailing edge of the sole. The

shallower you attack the more the bounce comes into play. With the shorter

shaft of a wedge your swing is more upright and that is why people are more

prone to the fats with a wedge than a 5 iron.

 

I shouldn't have said bounce stops digging, it lessens digging. If that is not

the case then the invention of the sand wedge was the dumbest thing since

spilt milk.

[Conrad1953]

High bounce seeks a path of least resistance which is more shallow.

 

It's like cutting with a dull knife.

 

A thinner sharper blade is easier to force in the cut.

 

In sand and fluffy lies you HAVE to be more precise with less bounce.

 

There is no law of physics that supports this. The overall effective surface area of the face exposed to the ball (relative to the path) is the same. If the face surface area is the same, then the precision required to hit the ball with it is the same.

 

The lower bounce wedge merely glides through the sand and fluffy lie easier than the higher bounce wedge.

 

Bounce = forgiveness. The better payer you are the less bounce you need.

[Michael C.]

"You just dig SLOWER" with the high bounce club"

 

...and not as DEEP. The deeper you go, the more mass(dirt) to push.

 

 

[Conrad1953]

Here it is mdg post #25

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1100933-use-the-bounce-failure/

[Michael C.]

High bounce seeks a path of least resistance which is more shallow.

 

It's like cutting with a dull knife.

 

A thinner sharper blade is easier to force in the cut.

 

In sand and fluffy lies you HAVE to be more precise with less bounce.

 

There is no law of physics that supports this. The overall effective surface area of the face exposed to the ball (relative to the path) is the same. If the face surface area is the same, then the precision required to hit the ball with it is the same.

 

The lower bounce wedge merely glides through the sand and fluffy lie easier than the higher bounce wedge.

 

Bounce = forgiveness. The better payer you are the less bounce you need.

 

...and yet, better players will often have wedges with different degrees of bounce to use depending on the shot they need.

[DeNinny]

I SAW the word CONCEPTUAL lol.

 

And Stu is always careful to mention he is talking about "his" game and

other's mileage may vary. He doesn't say that what is good for him is

necessarily good for EVERYONE.

 

And it just so happens that BIG STU's reasoning was completely based on the TRUE science. Hence my post TO HIM.

 

And to be clear, when I post about the science, it applies to EVERYONE because we all live in the same universe bound by the same laws of science. Whether or not someone wants to align their game with it or not is irrelevant. As we both agreed, the psychological impact of how one perceives a scientifically supported benefit or detriment has more of an impact than the pure science of it.

 

So, if low bounce isn't for you and YOUR GAME, NO PROBLEM. Just realize that the science doesn't support the benefit of a high bounce club. And yes this applies to EVERYONE in the known universe.

 

On of the most celebrated wedges of all time (Ping Eye2 SW) has 17.5 degrees

of bounce.

 

You can choose how much bounce you want to expose on any given shot

depending on how you set up and address the ball.

 

Bounce doesn't "cut" through anything, it causes the club head to "bounce"

off the ground and keep the leading edge from digging.

 

If you wanna hit flop shots off tight lies then low or no bounce can be good.

However, if your lie is the least bit fluffy you can go right under the ball and

whiff completely. You can still hit a flop shot off a tight lie with a medium

bounce wedge. It depends on your angle of attack.

 

High bounce is not evil and neither is low bounce in and of themselves. It

just depends on the player. I think nearly every iron made has some bounce

just like every iron made has some offset.

 

I once watched a Dan Carraher video on here where he was hitting flop

shots with a 3 iron just to prove you can hit many different shots with any

iron.

 

Conrad you have clearly chosen your own version of the science.

 

It still boils down to how well the club moves through the turf. Whether you call it "cuts" or not. Bounce does NOT prevent you from digging. It slows DOWN the clubhead MORE whilst digging. It has more curvature that is NOT streamlined, as well as a lower bounce club, in the direction of the club path, this curvature ADDs drag force on the clubhead. The dirt has to move MORE around it. This SLOWS the club down. This physics does NOT support the prevention of digging. It requires that MORE energy be put into the shot in order to dig the same amount. This is unequivocally BAD for maintaining clubhead velocity.

 

If you think all your other reasons override this fundamental issue, then no problem, as stated, you have the psychology to override the physics.

 

Note this as well: if you take a divot with a high bounce wedge, you are NOT "bouncing" through anything. You are CUTting through the ground. And again the ADDED curvature from the bounce ADDs drag.

 

The issue doesn't get any more basic than the increased drag. And this is added drag through grass too, not just turf. The drag physics is the same regardless if it is dirt, grass, or even air.

 

You can take a divot with a wedge because the angle of attack reduces the

exposed bounce. The max bounce is near the trailing edge of the sole. The

shallower you attack the more the bounce comes into play. With the shorter

shaft of a wedge your swing is more upright and that is why people are more

prone to the fats with a wedge than a 5 iron.

 

I shouldn't have said bounce stops digging, it lessens digging. If that is not

the case then the invention of the sand wedge was the dumbest thing since

spilt milk.

 

You can take a divot with a high bounce club for the same reasons as the lower bounce club. The only difference is going to be how fast or slow the clubhead moves whilst taking said divot. And furthermore, if max bounce is at the trailing edge, then this has no benefit either. That part of the club is the LAST thing to influence the ground. I would argue that the ball should have already left the clubface well before the trailing part of the max bounce has even contacted the ground!

 

You keep arguing technique or club differences and that changes the argument completely. Please NOTE that everything I'm stating is based on ALL OTHER THINGS EQUAL. This includes the swing technique, AoA, club loft, clubhead velocity, clubhead weight, shaft, etc. We have no argument when you start adding other variables. The difference is relative ONLY with respect to the bounce difference. And when all other things are equal, the higher bounce has higher drag through any substrate and it has a higher chance of ground contact before face-ball contact. There is no avoiding this detrimental physics.

 

The sand wedge was simply a better club in going through sand because the loft is so weak. Again the weaker loft doesn't displace as much sand as the stronger loft wedge. And so this is a good thing in the design of the sand wedge. Not dumb at all. The low bounce wedges out today are PERFECTLY fine in the sand. There is ZERO issue with using them and for reasons stated the lower bounce sand wedges have SUPERIOR fluid dynamics in ALL substrates..

[DeNinny]

"You just dig SLOWER" with the high bounce club"

 

...and not as DEEP. The deeper you go, the more mass(dirt) to push.

 

The reason you don't go as DEEP is because the clubhead slowed down. When it slowed down, it didn't transfer as much ENERGY to the ball. Given the same depth, the lower bounce club goes FASTER through it.

[Conrad1953]

 

 

And it just so happens that BIG STU's reasoning was completely based on the TRUE science. Hence my post TO HIM.

 

And to be clear, when I post about the science, it applies to EVERYONE because we all live in the same universe bound by the same laws of science. Whether or not someone wants to align their game with it or not is irrelevant. As we both agreed, the psychological impact of how one perceives a scientifically supported benefit or detriment has more of an impact than the pure science of it.

 

So, if low bounce isn't for you and YOUR GAME, NO PROBLEM. Just realize that the science doesn't support the benefit of a high bounce club. And yes this applies to EVERYONE in the known universe.

 

On of the most celebrated wedges of all time (Ping Eye2 SW) has 17.5 degrees

of bounce.

 

You can choose how much bounce you want to expose on any given shot

depending on how you set up and address the ball.

 

Bounce doesn't "cut" through anything, it causes the club head to "bounce"

off the ground and keep the leading edge from digging.

 

If you wanna hit flop shots off tight lies then low or no bounce can be good.

However, if your lie is the least bit fluffy you can go right under the ball and

whiff completely. You can still hit a flop shot off a tight lie with a medium

bounce wedge. It depends on your angle of attack.

 

High bounce is not evil and neither is low bounce in and of themselves. It

just depends on the player. I think nearly every iron made has some bounce

just like every iron made has some offset.

 

I once watched a Dan Carraher video on here where he was hitting flop

shots with a 3 iron just to prove you can hit many different shots with any

iron.

 

Conrad you have clearly chosen your own version of the science.

 

It still boils down to how well the club moves through the turf. Whether you call it "cuts" or not. Bounce does NOT prevent you from digging. It slows DOWN the clubhead MORE whilst digging. It has more curvature that is NOT streamlined, as well as a lower bounce club, in the direction of the club path, this curvature ADDs drag force on the clubhead. The dirt has to move MORE around it. This SLOWS the club down. This physics does NOT support the prevention of digging. It requires that MORE energy be put into the shot in order to dig the same amount. This is unequivocally BAD for maintaining clubhead velocity.

 

If you think all your other reasons override this fundamental issue, then no problem, as stated, you have the psychology to override the physics.

 

Note this as well: if you take a divot with a high bounce wedge, you are NOT "bouncing" through anything. You are CUTting through the ground. And again the ADDED curvature from the bounce ADDs drag.

 

The issue doesn't get any more basic than the increased drag. And this is added drag through grass too, not just turf. The drag physics is the same regardless if it is dirt, grass, or even air.

 

You can take a divot with a wedge because the angle of attack reduces the

exposed bounce. The max bounce is near the trailing edge of the sole. The

shallower you attack the more the bounce comes into play. With the shorter

shaft of a wedge your swing is more upright and that is why people are more

prone to the fats with a wedge than a 5 iron.

 

I shouldn't have said bounce stops digging, it lessens digging. If that is not

the case then the invention of the sand wedge was the dumbest thing since

spilt milk.

 

You can take a divot with a high bounce club for the same reasons as the lower bounce club. The only difference is going to be how fast or slow the clubhead moves whilst taking said divot. And furthermore, if max bounce is at the trailing edge, then this has no benefit either. That part of the club is the LAST thing to influence the ground. I would argue that the ball should have already left the clubface well before the trailing part of the max bounce has even contacted the ground!

 

You keep arguing technique or club differences and that changes the argument completely. Please NOTE that everything I'm stating is based on ALL OTHER THINGS EQUAL. This includes the swing technique, AoA, club loft, clubhead velocity, clubhead weight, shaft, etc. We have no argument when you start adding other variables. The difference is relative ONLY with respect to the bounce difference. And when all other things are equal, the higher bounce has higher drag through any substrate and it has a higher chance of ground contact before face-ball contact. There is no avoiding this detrimental physics.

 

The sand wedge was simply a better club in going through sand because the loft is so weak. Again the weaker loft doesn't displace as much sand as the stronger loft wedge. And so this is a good thing in the design of the sand wedge. Not dumb at all. The low bounce wedges out today are PERFECTLY fine in the sand. There is ZERO issue with using them and for reasons stated the lower bounce sand wedges have SUPERIOR fluid dynamics in ALL substrates..

 

 

???? the sand wedge was just higher loft??? Um....what about the flange??

AKA bounce.

[Michael C.]

Just played 9. Birdied 3 of the first 4. Lol. Ended up @ even 36.

 

Didn't feel like one of those special rounds. It felt more like the changes I've been making are starting to set in. Pretty happy.

 

I have a Winn midsized grip on my Anser 2. Had 13 putts for 9 holes. ;)

 

Out of the blue this morning, I decided to change my whole set up when I putt. Squared it up. Ball forward of center and concentrated on my rhythm. The putts that I missed were hit like I wanted, I just didn't trust the break and missed the on the low (amateur) side. Hate missing putts low or short.

 

Oh well. Sleepy time. Y'all have a good day.

 

Technically, it would add up to 26 for 18. That is one monster of a putting round. Unknowingly, you're setting goals for me. :download:

 

Mdg, I only hit 4 greens. Lol. 3 birds and 2 up and downs. So, 5 - 1 putts. I've never really been a green hitting machine. Puts a lot of pressure on my short game.

 

I always say: "If I don't birdie the 1st, I can't birdie them all"

 

You want to talk pressure, you've come to the right place :rofl:

 

MC, you did it this one time, now lose the pressure, and go out there and do it again!

 

We havin' fun, or what?

 

That's the very line I said to my playing partner as we walked off the first green. Lol.

[DeNinny]

High bounce seeks a path of least resistance which is more shallow.

 

It's like cutting with a dull knife.

 

A thinner sharper blade is easier to force in the cut.

 

In sand and fluffy lies you HAVE to be more precise with less bounce.

 

There is no law of physics that supports this. The overall effective surface area of the face exposed to the ball (relative to the path) is the same. If the face surface area is the same, then the precision required to hit the ball with it is the same.

 

The lower bounce wedge merely glides through the sand and fluffy lie easier than the higher bounce wedge.

 

Bounce = forgiveness. The better payer you are the less bounce you need.

 

There is zero physics to support bounce = forgiveness. If there is forgiveness based on any physics, that same physics created higher drag force on the club and also higher chance of ground contact before ball contact. Both of these issues are NOT forgiving. So if you choose a high bounce club for whatever definition of "forgiveness" you want based on your own interpretation of the physics, note that you are also accepting those two detriments.

 

And again if you argue that those detriments don't matter than that is saying the supposed "forgiveness" doesn't really matter as well.

[Michael C.]

"You just dig SLOWER" with the high bounce club"

 

...and not as DEEP. The deeper you go, the more mass(dirt) to push.

 

The reason you don't go as DEEP is because the clubhead slowed down. When it slowed down, it didn't transfer as much ENERGY to the ball. Given the same depth, the lower bounce club goes FASTER through it.

 

You use a sharp thin knife to cut a steak because it cuts DEEPER...FASTER!

 

Works the same with a thin sole.

 

Also a SW is the heaviest head in the bag. Without the wide bounce it wants to go down. When a club is in motion in an arc, it becomes heavier...exponentially. It would take a lot of strength to keep it from digging at the bottom of the arc.

[DeNinny]

On of the most celebrated wedges of all time (Ping Eye2 SW) has 17.5 degrees

of bounce.

 

You can choose how much bounce you want to expose on any given shot

depending on how you set up and address the ball.

 

Bounce doesn't "cut" through anything, it causes the club head to "bounce"

off the ground and keep the leading edge from digging.

 

If you wanna hit flop shots off tight lies then low or no bounce can be good.

However, if your lie is the least bit fluffy you can go right under the ball and

whiff completely. You can still hit a flop shot off a tight lie with a medium

bounce wedge. It depends on your angle of attack.

 

High bounce is not evil and neither is low bounce in and of themselves. It

just depends on the player. I think nearly every iron made has some bounce

just like every iron made has some offset.

 

I once watched a Dan Carraher video on here where he was hitting flop

shots with a 3 iron just to prove you can hit many different shots with any

iron.

 

Conrad you have clearly chosen your own version of the science.

 

It still boils down to how well the club moves through the turf. Whether you call it "cuts" or not. Bounce does NOT prevent you from digging. It slows DOWN the clubhead MORE whilst digging. It has more curvature that is NOT streamlined, as well as a lower bounce club, in the direction of the club path, this curvature ADDs drag force on the clubhead. The dirt has to move MORE around it. This SLOWS the club down. This physics does NOT support the prevention of digging. It requires that MORE energy be put into the shot in order to dig the same amount. This is unequivocally BAD for maintaining clubhead velocity.

 

If you think all your other reasons override this fundamental issue, then no problem, as stated, you have the psychology to override the physics.

 

Note this as well: if you take a divot with a high bounce wedge, you are NOT "bouncing" through anything. You are CUTting through the ground. And again the ADDED curvature from the bounce ADDs drag.

 

The issue doesn't get any more basic than the increased drag. And this is added drag through grass too, not just turf. The drag physics is the same regardless if it is dirt, grass, or even air.

 

You can take a divot with a wedge because the angle of attack reduces the

exposed bounce. The max bounce is near the trailing edge of the sole. The

shallower you attack the more the bounce comes into play. With the shorter

shaft of a wedge your swing is more upright and that is why people are more

prone to the fats with a wedge than a 5 iron.

 

I shouldn't have said bounce stops digging, it lessens digging. If that is not

the case then the invention of the sand wedge was the dumbest thing since

spilt milk.

 

You can take a divot with a high bounce club for the same reasons as the lower bounce club. The only difference is going to be how fast or slow the clubhead moves whilst taking said divot. And furthermore, if max bounce is at the trailing edge, then this has no benefit either. That part of the club is the LAST thing to influence the ground. I would argue that the ball should have already left the clubface well before the trailing part of the max bounce has even contacted the ground!

 

You keep arguing technique or club differences and that changes the argument completely. Please NOTE that everything I'm stating is based on ALL OTHER THINGS EQUAL. This includes the swing technique, AoA, club loft, clubhead velocity, clubhead weight, shaft, etc. We have no argument when you start adding other variables. The difference is relative ONLY with respect to the bounce difference. And when all other things are equal, the higher bounce has higher drag through any substrate and it has a higher chance of ground contact before face-ball contact. There is no avoiding this detrimental physics.

 

The sand wedge was simply a better club in going through sand because the loft is so weak. Again the weaker loft doesn't displace as much sand as the stronger loft wedge. And so this is a good thing in the design of the sand wedge. Not dumb at all. The low bounce wedges out today are PERFECTLY fine in the sand. There is ZERO issue with using them and for reasons stated the lower bounce sand wedges have SUPERIOR fluid dynamics in ALL substrates..

 

 

???? the sand wedge was just higher loft??? Um....what about the flange??

AKA bounce.

 

See my point about lower bounce flanges in todays lob and sand wedges being perfectly acceptable and equally as good in the sand as higher bounce flanges. My point is about the RELATIVE differences between bounce in the context of clubs that are out there on the market. It is NOT about the validity of the sand wedge design. Again, my points are about the RELATIVE differences in bounce.

[DeNinny]

"You just dig SLOWER" with the high bounce club"

 

...and not as DEEP. The deeper you go, the more mass(dirt) to push.

 

The reason you don't go as DEEP is because the clubhead slowed down. When it slowed down, it didn't transfer as much ENERGY to the ball. Given the same depth, the lower bounce club goes FASTER through it.

 

You use a sharp thin knife to cut a steak because it cuts DEEPER...FASTER!

 

Works the same with a thin sole.

 

Also a SW is the heaviest head in the bag. Without the wide bounce it wants to go down. When a club is in motion in an arc, it becomes heavier...exponentially. It would take a lot of strength to keep it from digging at the bottom of the arc.

 

The arms and body are defining the depth of the arc, NOT the clubhead. What is providing the energy to do the digging? It is the arms and body. The force of this overrides any influence that the clubhead has on its path.

 

And furthermore, you WANT the clubhead to go as FAST as possible once ground contact is made. Also, how much digging are we even arguing about? Less than fractions of an inch I would hope before ball contact is made. And so how does ANY amount of bounce help over a distance of less than fractions of an inch? Again, if this is significant to said "forgiveness" then the DETRIMENTS of higher drag and higher chance of ground contact first are equally significant. The very same physics caused ALL of it.

 

Edit: Also the GROUND itself stops the digging, NOT your mighty "strength". LOL you are generating the power that caused you to dig. You can certainly stop your own generated power with the same power you used to generate it. But this is besides the point since the GROUND does a good job of slowing everything down...especially the higher bounce club.

[Conrad1953]

"You just dig SLOWER" with the high bounce club"

 

...and not as DEEP. The deeper you go, the more mass(dirt) to push.

 

The reason you don't go as DEEP is because the clubhead slowed down. When it slowed down, it didn't transfer as much ENERGY to the ball. Given the same depth, the lower bounce club goes FASTER through it.

 

You use a sharp thin knife to cut a steak because it cuts DEEPER...FASTER!

 

Works the same with a thin sole.

 

Also a SW is the heaviest head in the bag. Without the wide bounce it wants to go down. When a club is in motion in an arc, it becomes heavier...exponentially. It would take a lot of strength to keep it from digging at the bottom of the arc.

 

The arms and body are defining the depth of the arc, NOT the clubhead. What is providing the energy to do the digging? It is the arms and body. The force of this overrides any influence that the clubhead has on its path.

 

And furthermore, you WANT the clubhead to go as FAST as possible once ground contact is made. Also, how much digging are we even arguing about? Less than fractions of an inch I would hope before ball contact is made. And so how does ANY amount of bounce help over a distance of less than fractions of an inch? Again, if this is significant to said "forgiveness" then the DETRIMENTS of higher drag and higher chance of ground contact first are equally significant. The very same physics caused ALL of it.

 

Edit: Also the GROUND itself stops the digging, NOT your mighty "strength". LOL you are generating the power that caused you to dig. You can certainly stop your own generated power with the same power you used to generate it. But this is besides the point since the GROUND does a good job of slowing everything down...especially the higher bounce club.

 

This is some twisted logic, lol.

 

So the sharp edge clubs that digs is going faster than the one that

drop kicks into the ball??? Ever drop kick a drive??

[DeNinny]

"You just dig SLOWER" with the high bounce club"

 

...and not as DEEP. The deeper you go, the more mass(dirt) to push.

 

The reason you don't go as DEEP is because the clubhead slowed down. When it slowed down, it didn't transfer as much ENERGY to the ball. Given the same depth, the lower bounce club goes FASTER through it.

 

You use a sharp thin knife to cut a steak because it cuts DEEPER...FASTER!

 

Works the same with a thin sole.

 

Also a SW is the heaviest head in the bag. Without the wide bounce it wants to go down. When a club is in motion in an arc, it becomes heavier...exponentially. It would take a lot of strength to keep it from digging at the bottom of the arc.

 

The arms and body are defining the depth of the arc, NOT the clubhead. What is providing the energy to do the digging? It is the arms and body. The force of this overrides any influence that the clubhead has on its path.

 

And furthermore, you WANT the clubhead to go as FAST as possible once ground contact is made. Also, how much digging are we even arguing about? Less than fractions of an inch I would hope before ball contact is made. And so how does ANY amount of bounce help over a distance of less than fractions of an inch? Again, if this is significant to said "forgiveness" then the DETRIMENTS of higher drag and higher chance of ground contact first are equally significant. The very same physics caused ALL of it.

 

Edit: Also the GROUND itself stops the digging, NOT your mighty "strength". LOL you are generating the power that caused you to dig. You can certainly stop your own generated power with the same power you used to generate it. But this is besides the point since the GROUND does a good job of slowing everything down...especially the higher bounce club.

 

This is some twisted logic, lol.

 

So the sharp edge clubs that digs is going faster than the one that

drop kicks into the ball??? Ever drop kick a drive??

 

Your logic that the higher bounce wedge drop kicks better than the low bounce wedge is the twisted logic. You have provided no technical argument to support this. You make an assumption that that is what is going to happen. And you are arguing that it is going to be significant over fractions of an inch!

 

You can call my logic twisted and LOL it and I will simply do the same. Then the argument ceases to be a technical one.

 

If you don't understand what I've already stated then you are never going to get it. It will definitely be twisted based on that view.

 

Good night.

[Conrad1953]

 

 

The reason you don't go as DEEP is because the clubhead slowed down. When it slowed down, it didn't transfer as much ENERGY to the ball. Given the same depth, the lower bounce club goes FASTER through it.

 

You use a sharp thin knife to cut a steak because it cuts DEEPER...FASTER!

 

Works the same with a thin sole.

 

Also a SW is the heaviest head in the bag. Without the wide bounce it wants to go down. When a club is in motion in an arc, it becomes heavier...exponentially. It would take a lot of strength to keep it from digging at the bottom of the arc.

 

The arms and body are defining the depth of the arc, NOT the clubhead. What is providing the energy to do the digging? It is the arms and body. The force of this overrides any influence that the clubhead has on its path.

 

And furthermore, you WANT the clubhead to go as FAST as possible once ground contact is made. Also, how much digging are we even arguing about? Less than fractions of an inch I would hope before ball contact is made. And so how does ANY amount of bounce help over a distance of less than fractions of an inch? Again, if this is significant to said "forgiveness" then the DETRIMENTS of higher drag and higher chance of ground contact first are equally significant. The very same physics caused ALL of it.

 

Edit: Also the GROUND itself stops the digging, NOT your mighty "strength". LOL you are generating the power that caused you to dig. You can certainly stop your own generated power with the same power you used to generate it. But this is besides the point since the GROUND does a good job of slowing everything down...especially the higher bounce club.

 

This is some twisted logic, lol.

 

So the sharp edge clubs that digs is going faster than the one that

drop kicks into the ball??? Ever drop kick a drive??

 

Your logic that the higher bounce wedge drop kicks better than the low bounce wedge is the twisted logic. You have provided no technical argument to support this. You make an assumption that that is what is going to happen. And you are arguing that it is going to be significant over fractions of an inch!

 

You can call my logic twisted and LOL it and I will simply do the same. Then the argument ceases to be a technical one.

 

If you don't understand what I've already stated then you are never going to get it. It will definitely be twisted based on that view.

 

Good night.

 

Nighty night. :D

[Michael C.]

A fraction of an inch out of the sand to me is the difference between a one hop and stop AND a ball that rolls 15 ft passed the hole.

 

What do I know? I believe the earth is round yet...it sure seems pretty flat. Of course I live in Illinois. :D

 

Edit: Good Night, Ninja. :D