Oceans Eleven Confessions to break a man's heart....

[DeNinny]

Ninja, great post!

 

I do think your model misses the mark by not accounting for the difference in the density of the ground under and in front of the ball. I think that is the most important factor. I do understand that all things being equal it shouldn't matter as long as it's the same for both wedges, but I think it's the two extremes where the two wedges excel.

 

I also don't think it's described that well by the "experts," but as you've said repeatedly it isn't sexy marketing material so it gets overlooked. To me, admitting my own ignorance, I think the rub is probably in the different types of grasses, their blade height, root depth, and the amount of water content in each of the three. Probably the biggest for me is how wet the soil is and whether it's sandy or organic. Organic "sticky" mud is the type that really wants to grab a sharp leading edge and remove a surgical piece of divot that sucks all my energy into the divot and none into the ball. That's where I'm talking vectors, my man. There's some special spot in the root zone that science cannot describe. Either the leading edge's vector goes towards the target line and I end up with a playable shot or it goes straight towards the core of the planet and I look like Jordan Spieth.

 

BTW, if Spieth had been using a higher bounce wedge he would have skulled it into the back trap rather than laid the sod over it into the creek. :)

 

I don't want to do it, but I need to buy a new low bounce 52. Mine was new old stock with the old wedges and it's hell on the new generation of golf balls. In the great arms race of spin control once the USGA dulled the grooves the ball companies just softened the covers. Now I end up with fish scales on 4 dollar golf balls that are more frustrating than 3 bogies in a row.

 

Matt J,

 

You'll either have to educate yourself on the specific math behind what different wet grass, "sticky" mud, etc do when rubbing and resisting a metal object or you will just have to "trust me" on this, but there is NOTHING technical that will justify the superiority of the high bounce wedge in all the conditions you describe. My model does NOT miss the mark in this regard.

 

But if you want to continue to vehemently BELIEVE what you want to believe on that point, by all means, DON'T stop!!! That psychology is what is enabling you to play your high bounce wedges adequately and in defiance of the true (and complete) physics as I have described. As soon as that psychology is shaken, it *may* start to affect you.

 

Also regardless of whether or not this point is correct, there is no way the ground or substrate is going to reroute the head, the shaft, the golfer's hands and arms during the distances of concern. Again just literally examine closely how similar a high bounce and low bounce wedge really are. Their MINISCULE differences are NOT going to significantly change the path and position of all that mass.

 

Also the reason the "experts" don't explain it any better is because they can't! It's not "sexy" simply because to explain it any further, like I just did, would start to contradict their "physics". So the only way they can have half a chance of marketing anything remotely believable is to simply focus solely on the roundedness of the bounce itself and isolate the physics to just the head itself. To expand it any further would lead to contradiction as I have repeatedly stated.

[DeNinny]

BTW, Ninja, you saying that just a few millimeters of difference would be insignificant in regards to the fluid dynamics of the wedge travelling through the ground....

 

I'm thinking of an airplane wing and how lift is created. Isn't the key to lift that the air has to travel faster around the underside of the wing hence pushing up harder? Isn't the wedge something like an upside-down wing through the ground? The bulge in the bounce doesn't seem like much material, but if it changes the fluid dynamics of how much lift the substrate is pushing against the bottom of the wedge then it could be more significant than it seems !?!

 

I'm still liking Radro's skipping rocks... when you go to skip a rock you pick a nice rounded aerodynamic rock, not a sharp one.

 

Unequivocally, the less round, the MORE aerodynamic.

 

Since I am to the point of repeating myself, I can only refer you back to everything I already stated to address all your points above. In short, it requires MORE force and energy to literally "lift" the more rounded or bulged clubhead (...in addition to the attached shaft, hands, and arms).

 

If this doesn't help you understand, at this point I can only refer you to "Physics for Scientists and Engineers" by Douglas C. Giancoli (or an equivalent book).

 

And if that doesn't help, then this is all I have left...

 

 

Edit: Food for thought...try to skip a round rock and then a nice flat one. One of them will skip with ease relative to the other one...

[mdgboxx]

Belated anniversary best wishes MC!! The Mrs. and I just had our 31st a couple of weeks ago. The love of my life. We argue a lot, keeps both of us sharp in our advancing years. And we played 9 yesterday afternoon, did not offer one word of constructive criticism about her golf swing. Was damn proud of myself. She even said "Thank you for not saying anything today". Matrimonial bliss.

 

:good:

There you gooooooo!! :good:

:good:

[DeNinny]

Can't imagine too many people out there swinging anything but their Woods over 100mph....just to Nit Pick ;)

 

Just to nitpick...I first said "up to" 100 mph. :bigwhack:

 

Haha Just To Not Pick, I was just yankin yer chain by!! I totally get what you're saying and am on the same side!! Couldn't help myself on that one though haha ;)

 

Just to nitpick, I just like to nitpick.

 

Really? No one would ever have guessed ! We all love it when your mystical-like explanations are given ! Seriously,you have explained

several issues in discussions,that I was always one of the hackers who always just accepted what some supposed instructor had decreed !

Yourself and the Judge have provided me with a lot of understanding and insight and i really appreciate it,as does everyone on this thread.

 

Thanks for this, bill. I am here to simply share what I have learned on my own personal golf journey in the hopes that it helps others, just like others sharing theirs has helped me, regardless of whether or not I agree with them. Also just explaining things are very beneficial to me. It refines my understanding. Also to me this is what WRX should really be about: open and respectful sharing of our golf journeys to collectively expand our understanding of the game. This thread(s) best exemplifies that which is why I post here almost exclusively.

 

With respect to the science side of my journey, I can tell you that anything I post about it will be based on scientific first principles and it will NEVER contradict them. If I'm NOT sure about something I will clearly state that. And if I am 100% on something, which is really rare for me, you can trust that I will have already argued with myself and really tried, to the core of my understanding, to refute my own claims. I will also have thoroughly reviewed any contrary position that I have read and use math and science to the best of my ability to validate (or invalidate) it. From all of this I can tell you that A LOT of the technical confusion out there is because of manufacturers of clubs that will "spin" the science such that there is a PERCEIVED "benefit" and moreover NOTHING will ever be mentioned about said club's detriments. And the reason all of this is possible is because most golfers, and I mean ZERO disrespect by this, are ignorant of the complete physics. I never thought my education would help me so much on this journey, but I'm so glad now that I have it. And if it helps you, then even better!

[mdgboxx]

Ninja, great post!

 

I do think your model misses the mark by not accounting for the difference in the density of the ground under and in front of the ball. I think that is the most important factor. I do understand that all things being equal it shouldn't matter as long as it's the same for both wedges, but I think it's the two extremes where the two wedges excel.

 

I also don't think it's described that well by the "experts," but as you've said repeatedly it isn't sexy marketing material so it gets overlooked. To me, admitting my own ignorance, I think the rub is probably in the different types of grasses, their blade height, root depth, and the amount of water content in each of the three. Probably the biggest for me is how wet the soil is and whether it's sandy or organic. Organic "sticky" mud is the type that really wants to grab a sharp leading edge and remove a surgical piece of divot that sucks all my energy into the divot and none into the ball. That's where I'm talking vectors, my man. There's some special spot in the root zone that science cannot describe. Either the leading edge's vector goes towards the target line and I end up with a playable shot or it goes straight towards the core of the planet and I look like Jordan Spieth.

 

BTW, if Spieth had been using a higher bounce wedge he would have skulled it into the back trap rather than laid the sod over it into the creek. :)

 

I don't want to do it, but I need to buy a new low bounce 52. Mine was new old stock with the old wedges and it's hell on the new generation of golf balls. In the great arms race of spin control once the USGA dulled the grooves the ball companies just softened the covers. Now I end up with fish scales on 4 dollar golf balls that are more frustrating than 3 bogies in a row.

 

Here is a Law of Physics, I know too well: "For every action, ---> There is a reaction.

 

The USGA dulled the grooves, ---> Ball manufacturers softened the covers. They also reduced the compression by a lot.

 

What else did the USGA expect.......Hail to the OGA! :yess:

[DeNinny]

By the way and for the record, everyone. The ideal bounce for a club sole is NOT perfectly flat. The theoretical ideal is for the curvature of the sole to match the natural curvature of the swing arc. A perfectly flat sole would create some detrimental drag force given that the clubhead path is ALWAYS curved.

[mdgboxx]

By the way and for the record, everyone. The ideal bounce for a club sole is NOT perfectly flat. The theoretical ideal is for the curvature of the sole to match the natural curvature of the swing arc. A perfectly flat sole would create some detrimental drag force given that the clubhead path is ALWAYS curved.

 

A friend of mine had bought a Ben Hogan, Sure-Out wedge. While, he said it was almost impossible to leave a ball in the bunker, it was surprisingly harder to hit off the deck (swing harder)

[DeNinny]

By the way and for the record, everyone. The ideal bounce for a club sole is NOT perfectly flat. The theoretical ideal is for the curvature of the sole to match the natural curvature of the swing arc. A perfectly flat sole would create some detrimental drag force given that the clubhead path is ALWAYS curved.

 

A friend of mine had bought a Ben Hogan, Sure-Out wedge. While, he said it was almost impossible to leave a ball in the bunker, it was surprisingly harder to hit off the deck (swing harder)

 

OMG I just looked at pics and the sole of that thing is a MONSTROSITY!!!

 

...definitely something that will interfere with the ground more!

 

And out of the sand it will just be "not as bad"...

[Fellaheen51]

By the way and for the record, everyone. The ideal bounce for a club sole is NOT perfectly flat. The theoretical ideal is for the curvature of the sole to match the natural curvature of the swing arc. A perfectly flat sole would create some detrimental drag force given that the clubhead path is ALWAYS curved.

 

A friend of mine had bought a Ben Hogan, Sure-Out wedge. While, he said it was almost impossible to leave a ball in the bunker, it was surprisingly harder to hit off the deck (swing harder)

 

OMG I just looked at pics and the sole of that thing is a MONSTROSITY!!!

 

...definitely something that will interfere with the ground more!

 

And out of the sand it will just be "not as bad"...

 

The Hogan Sure Out is Alien'esque in its sole width. But low bounce!!! So not surprising that he couldn't hit it off the deck. I'm a big Hogan wedge fan, but that one is a non-starter. My favorite continues to be the BeCu SI with "illegal" grooves. To the buds, I call it my "toxic" wedge. Great wedge from sand and fairway. Just picked up a Hogan Special 51 K Grind to tryout as a gap wedge with the Apexs. No idea what the bounce is, and not going to look it up.

 

 

[DeNinny]

^ F51, benefit of that low bounce is going to be overridden by the detriments of that wide sole...

 

...the women's basketball goes through the hoop easier than the men's ball...

 

...and she said "size matters"!

[Pigems]

Ya'll wanna pool our money and Buy TaylorMade? We can force them to make nothing but Blades from here on out ;)

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1329132-adidas-actively-pursuing-a-buyer-for-taylormade-golf/page__fromsearch__1

 

[DeNinny]

I confess that I have often wondered if any of the WRX 'guests' that lurk this thread are actual registered members. LOL they are WRX's equivalent of 'Peeping Toms'.

[Qqq123xx]

I have found out more about bounce the last two days than i ever knew existed !

No arguments

No trolls.

No insults

No surprise

Good discussion guys.

 

We do this cause we know it gives Ninja a woody.

I got a woody and I know nothin' about science. I can fold space rapidly though without thought. And therein lies my problematic non science non knowledge.

[BIG STU]

I've never felt the face of a golf club flex with my thumbs. I definitely wouldn't play it if I could :)

 

I remember when the Outlaw Golf Association started over that big thread about the USGA doesn't trust you to play by yourself, haha.

 

I want to join, STU. Can I be member 007.

 

Matt J. OGA 007

 

Can I be a member of the OGA and the USGA or is that a conflict of interest. I just give the USGA money, they don't give me anything back, but my men's club requires it. I consider it extortion really.

Ninja is already #7 but that is ok to be a dual member I understand completely I think you are #8

 

Just to nitpick, I took #7 just 'cause it is a lucky number. I have no idea if I was truly the 7th to join. By my count, the order is...

 

#1 BIG STU

#2 billh ?

#3 Conrad1953

#4 MC

#5 ???

#6 Fella51

#7 DeNinny DeBunker

#8 mdg

#9 Pigems

 

We can't even get to 10 members without anarchy ensuing. Love it!!!

 

Consider this my application as an honourary member of the OGA. Despite being the about least outlawish person around, I do like sticking it to stuffy white men who make up organisations like the USGA and R&A. I mean, I practically am one myself and you know what they say about knowing one's enemy...

 

If accepted, I'd be happy to take number 13. Unlucky for some, but lucky for me. I was born and married on the 13th (many years apart of course).

Accepted it is #13 is you May I suggest when we post on our signature OGA put our member number beside it then we will know easier that way do not want to put too much strain on Ninja's already overworked mind

 

Stupid me you guys beat me to it goes to show what happens when you work too much. I have been turning the wheels the last 3 weeks or so. Don't laugh Rad I am sorta feeling like a real trucker again turned 2000 miles in 5 days this week

[BIG STU]

I'll chime in on the bounce discussion, my wedges have medium bounce (52*10, 56*14, 60*10) I never really thought about it before, especially when I bought these. They were the only lefty wedges I could find on island LOL. I'll play anything, and basically have played anything my whole "golf life" that goes for shafts, clubs. I just played what I could find and afford. The only thing I find I have trouble adapting to is shaft flex, I don't like feeling like I have to swing real easy. As lazy as my swing looks on camera I'm swinging about 90%. I'm loving hearing everyone's feedback, and of course Ninja's breakdown of the physics and what's actually happening. I'm just the type that if you give me 10 minutes on the range with an entirely different set of clubs I'm confident I could shoot a decent score, sorry if I sound arrogant LOL but I learned how to golf "ghetto style", so I had to play whatever I had :D Now, I have basically a full set of clubs that I've selected and ordered based off reading hundreds of reviews and I'm excited to have a whole new bag to start fresh with. I'm rambling now because I'm hungry so I'll stop! :)

While we are talking bounce to throw another thing in the mix. There are two types of bounce regular bounce and effective bounce. Maltby explains it well in his video all about wedges. I have the video but I think it is on U-Tube also. I bought that video a few years back and it cleared up some things I knew and educated me on some I did not know. That video actually came with a triangulation wedge gauge set used for measuring bounce. I learned from messing with that stuff that I can use a regular protractor. I learned a lot of Trig fabricating and building race cars. Those gauge sets also have cut outs on the end to measure leading edge sharpness like what Ninja was explaining the other night. Basically bounce has to do with how high or low the leading edge of the club is at a neutral position. The sole grind determines what the bounce effect is if the face is opened or closed.

[BIG STU]

By the way and for the record, everyone. The ideal bounce for a club sole is NOT perfectly flat. The theoretical ideal is for the curvature of the sole to match the natural curvature of the swing arc. A perfectly flat sole would create some detrimental drag force given that the clubhead path is ALWAYS curved.

 

A friend of mine had bought a Ben Hogan, Sure-Out wedge. While, he said it was almost impossible to leave a ball in the bunker, it was surprisingly harder to hit off the deck (swing harder)

 

OMG I just looked at pics and the sole of that thing is a MONSTROSITY!!!

 

...definitely something that will interfere with the ground more!

 

And out of the sand it will just be "not as bad"...

 

The Hogan Sure Out is Alien'esque in its sole width. But low bounce!!! So not surprising that he couldn't hit it off the deck. I'm a big Hogan wedge fan, but that one is a non-starter. My favorite continues to be the BeCu SI with "illegal" grooves. To the buds, I call it my "toxic" wedge. Great wedge from sand and fairway. Just picked up a Hogan Special 51 K Grind to tryout as a gap wedge with the Apexs. No idea what the bounce is, and not going to look it up.

 

 

I will tell you one thing a W grind (Watkins) will have a lot less bounce than any stock K grind (Kite)

 

BTW The BeCu grooves are legal and accepted in the OGA because I said so and besides we do not recognize ANY USGA rule period

[DeNinny]

BIG STU what is your take on installing wooden dowels in a shaft tip?

[BIG STU]

^ F51, benefit of that low bounce is going to be overridden by the detriments of that wide sole...

 

...the women's basketball goes through the hoop easier than the men's ball...

 

...and she said "size matters"!

LOL that Sure Out I can hit the prettiest "chop pop" you ever seen with one of those. All the weight is in the bottom on those. I have a couple of those. I have one " Tiger Stepped" with a R-300 8 iron tipped shaft in it. It is one of my trick shot clubs. I can hit it a max of maybe 50 yards length and 50 yards high and it measures out at 56*. In practicality it is useless for my game but when I am screwing around the range and practice green I will carry it and hit it some

[BIG STU]

BIG STU what is your take on installing wooden dowels in a shaft tip?

That is an 'old school" trick. All the old timers did that including my old man. Personally I do not like weight in the shaft or "slugged in the hosel" I will tell you something else a dowel in the tip will affect tip flex also. I have taken light weight wood dowels and stiffened a tip before. LOL the old timers used oak or in my area hickory dowels to add weight. I had an old 1 iron I bought from a yard sale and decided to re shaft it. My wife was in the shop when I was heating it up and she said I smell wood burning Hickory to be exact. Hey we are from the South and we know what burning Hickory smells like. I said yep this club must have been around Charlotte back in the day. I already knew it was slugged in the hosel because I had swung it and I can pick up on that usually unless it has a lot of lead tape on the back. The only thing with a dowel is you need to install it and when the epoxy dries drill a hole down the center for more epoxy to go up to help secure the shaft to the head.

[DeNinny]

LMAO BIG STU, you need to teach the "Chop and Pop" technique to all wide soled golfers. And become an I&A Forum "guru" and WRX site sponsor. StacknTilt smackntizzle!

[MMB1500]

Gah! TOOL.

 

Confession: I don't normally get involved in the blades vs GI debates but read some utter nonsense today from one of the usual suspects and I couldn't help myself. Saying a 6 time major winner is an idiot because he recommends beginners start the game using blades so they can learn how to strike the ball properly, then stating "I'm right and he's wrong" is beyond laughable.

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1329658-players-iron-for-a-beginner/page__st__120

[MMB1500]

I've never felt the face of a golf club flex with my thumbs. I definitely wouldn't play it if I could :)

 

I remember when the Outlaw Golf Association started over that big thread about the USGA doesn't trust you to play by yourself, haha.

 

I want to join, STU. Can I be member 007.

 

Matt J. OGA 007

 

Can I be a member of the OGA and the USGA or is that a conflict of interest. I just give the USGA money, they don't give me anything back, but my men's club requires it. I consider it extortion really.

Ninja is already #7 but that is ok to be a dual member I understand completely I think you are #8

 

Just to nitpick, I took #7 just 'cause it is a lucky number. I have no idea if I was truly the 7th to join. By my count, the order is...

 

#1 BIG STU

#2 billh ?

#3 Conrad1953

#4 MC

#5 ???

#6 Fella51

#7 DeNinny DeBunker

#8 mdg

#9 Pigems

 

We can't even get to 10 members without anarchy ensuing. Love it!!!

 

Consider this my application as an honourary member of the OGA. Despite being the about least outlawish person around, I do like sticking it to stuffy white men who make up organisations like the USGA and R&A. I mean, I practically am one myself and you know what they say about knowing one's enemy...

 

If accepted, I'd be happy to take number 13. Unlucky for some, but lucky for me. I was born and married on the 13th (many years apart of course).

Accepted it is #13 is you May I suggest when we post on our signature OGA put our member number beside it then we will know easier that way do not want to put too much strain on Ninja's already overworked mind

 

Stupid me you guys beat me to it goes to show what happens when you work too much. I have been turning the wheels the last 3 weeks or so. Don't laugh Rad I am sorta feeling like a real trucker again turned 2000 miles in 5 days this week

 

Lol. Thanks STU. Glad my membership application was accepted. In the past I've been asked to do some very inappropriate things to have my membership of certain other clubs accepted, so I'm happy this process went a lot smoother! Sig to be updated tonight.

[PeanutsDaddy]

The bag is filled with Wishon 575's for tomorrow's round. The short iron heads arrived earlier this week and they are now shafted with Penley Stealth 80's. My blade journey has convinced me that I possess the game to carry these. If you would have asked me a year ago I would have responded with a ?.

[Conrad1953]

Matt, nice avatar of Condi.

[thug the bunny]

Just cruising around WRX, spotted this. Very interesting perspective on life:

 

Hey guys - dating women isn't worth it. Either nothing happens at all, or you get to know each other and she breaks up with you....or you get bored and break up with her. Or you get married but then you get divorced and you have to split up your stuff and that's ugly as hell. BEST case scenario you love each other and get married and have kids and you're each other's best friend and then one of you dies. So I'm just gonna opt out of the whole thing.

 

This sounds like the delivery of a comic..

[Conrad1953]

Just cruising around WRX, spotted this. Very interesting perspective on life:

 

Hey guys - dating women isn't worth it. Either nothing happens at all, or you get to know each other and she breaks up with you....or you get bored and break up with her. Or you get married but then you get divorced and you have to split up your stuff and that's ugly as hell. BEST case scenario you love each other and get married and have kids and you're each other's best friend and then one of you dies. So I'm just gonna opt out of the whole thing.

 

This sounds like the delivery of a comic..

 

Ya, LOL, definitely comedy. The best comedy always mixes in truth and real life

and wraps it up into a "fresh" perspective, LMAO.

 

EDIT: TOOLed!!

[Matt J]

There are lots of men that have taken that perspective over the years, they're called monks and priests.

 

I could have accomplished a lot more in life had I worried less about women. But, like most things, I wouldn't do it any different.

 

How do you like my new avatar fellas?

[thug the bunny]

There are lots of men that have taken that perspective over the years, they're called monks and priests.

 

I could have accomplished a lot more in life had I worried less about women. But, like most things, I wouldn't do it any different.

 

How do you like my new avatar fellas?

 

Truth be told, I was gonna ask you about that. What's up with Condie?

[knock it close]

I'm on board with Condi. She has had quite an exceptional career in many fields plus being one of the first females at ANGC is pretty awesome.

[Matt J]

Haha. Kind of weird I know.

 

I guess I was thinking of how all these guys have these avatars of sexy women, but Condi being one of two female members of ANGC has something not many women can offer.

 

She actually intrigues me because I was a big fan of her work before she joined the Bush Administration. After uploading her photo I started thinking that I'll go get her biography from the library and try and gain some more insight into her role under Bush and Cheney.

 

I'm sure it won't last, but I think it's kind of funny, in a very weird way.

 

I've also always guessed that the avatar has an effect on likes and wanted to test Condi. :)