from stiff to regular

golfnut1964 · February 29, 2016

wondering when you knew it was time to switch from S to R? Have been using my 77 staff blades with R shaft

at the simulator this winter and I like the feel...higher ball flight is my only concern. I feel like I can swing same

late in round walking with these as opposed to battling fatigue using S.

Any thoughts/feedback greatly appreciated.

Fellaheen51 · March 1, 2016

Since you asked GN'64, some thoughts as it relates to my experiences. I haven't played S shafts since my 30's, last was a set of TA 855's. Thereafter, began building my own clubs and opening the door to understanding some of the dynamics involved with shaft specifications. Learned that I didn't particularly care for heavy shafts. Always used R flex as they were deemed appropriate for my SS and skill set. As a life long high ball hitter, did not differentiate between my swing and the shaft being used. Didn't seem to make that much difference. Always seemed to use one club more than others to cover a given distance (with irons).

Played graphite in my "homemade" irons for abut 5 years. Lightweight yes, but seemed to be very erratic with distribution. Then a couple of events occurred somewhat simultaneously. First, was being Ping fitted into a set of i20 irons with CFS steel. A lightweight shaft. Hit the ball high, as always, but felt much better and accuracy was improved. Second, and this was in '13, discovered the enjoyment of finding and playing classic golf clubs. Because of this, shafts were all over the place as to weight, flex, type. Wasn't going to reshaft everything to play them, didn't make financial sense. So I adapted to whatever it was that I had.

Discovered that flex wasn't as important as I had previously thought. The two critical components for my "playability" quotient for a given set of clubs are overall club weight and length. Shaft weight, why I don't have that much of problem playing Apex 4 (lighter) vs. DG S300 (heavy and fatiguing). Length, all clubs that are acquired "as is" are to short (6'3", 38.5" WTF). I can't make a fair assessment of things until extensions are installed. Then once some time has been spent seeing if they are playable for me, I'll go have the lies tweaked to more upright. The flex has become rather secondary for my ability to play a given set of irons.

I have a set of '73 - '75 W/S with stock black band shafts (R or S, can't remember as I type this). Very nice irons that I can't play worth a damn. Feel heavy and ponderous, sort of moved on from them. Probably should sell them off because I'm never going to play them again. Others, yourself, OSR, JB like their W/S. Preferential differences. Plus those screwed-in shafts make reshafting a non-starter for me. Afraid that would be a royal PITA to deal with.

With all that said, really like the lightweight Nippon 950gh shafts that are installed in my '99 Apex. Can swing those all day without being fatigued at the end of the round. And the ball flight is lower than the Pings. Loft differentials aside. Could use them in all my clubs and be satisfied with how they play. Get a sense around here that the inclination for most is towards a heavier iron feel, so I may be something of an outlier.

Another ramble. In summary, discovered that its more about overall club weight and the feel or heft to the club (or lack thereof) that makes it playable and less fatiguing over the course of a round than the flex designation. Once reasonably set up, I do not allow "spec" issues to clutter up my mind. Only want to focus on swing and not technicalities. But I'm just an average hack, that enjoys playing a variety of different golf clubs. (To many to ever get better?) So that's how I've learned to deal with it. Good luck Golfnut with discovering what works for you. Seems you're making some progress. My .02 take on the subject.

oldschoolrocker · March 1, 2016

Nut, still in this age of technical innovations and precise measurements we have no real uniformity with respect to shaft flex across the industry. You throw in the mix all the old shafts we come across on the classic and vintage gear and one really has a hodgepodge of frequency measurements, torque specs and flex points. Add shaft weight, and whats a layman to do!!!

All has to do with what works best for you and your game.

mocokid · March 1, 2016

Since you asked GN'64, some thoughts as it relates to my experiences. I haven't played S shafts since my 30's, last was a set of TA 855's. Thereafter, began building my own clubs and opening the door to understanding some of the dynamics involved with shaft specifications. Learned that I didn't particularly care for heavy shafts. Always used R flex as they were deemed appropriate for my SS and skill set. As a life long high ball hitter, did not differentiate between my swing and the shaft being used. Didn't seem to make that much difference. Always seemed to use one club more than others to cover a given distance (with irons).

Played graphite in my "homemade" irons for abut 5 years. Lightweight yes, but seemed to be very erratic with distribution. Then a couple of events occurred somewhat simultaneously. First, was being Ping fitted into a set of i20 irons with CFS steel. A lightweight shaft. Hit the ball high, as always, but felt much better and accuracy was improved. Second, and this was in '13, discovered the enjoyment of finding and playing classic golf clubs. Because of this, shafts were all over the place as to weight, flex, type. Wasn't going to reshaft everything to play them, didn't make financial sense. So I adapted to whatever it was that I had.

Discovered that flex wasn't as important as I had previously thought. The two critical components for my "playability" quotient for a given set of clubs are overall club weight and length. Shaft weight, why I don't have that much of problem playing Apex 4 (lighter) vs. DG S300 (heavy and fatiguing). Length, all clubs that are acquired "as is" are to short (6'3", 38.5" WTF). I can't make a fair assessment of things until extensions are installed. Then once some time has been spent seeing if they are playable for me, I'll go have the lies tweaked to more upright. The flex has become rather secondary for my ability to play a given set of irons.

I have a set of '73 - '75 W/S with stock black band shafts (R or S, can't remember as I type this). Very nice irons that I can't play worth a damn. Feel heavy and ponderous, sort of moved on from them. Probably should sell them off because I'm never going to play them again. Others, yourself, OSR, JB like their W/S. Preferential differences. Plus those screwed-in shafts make reshafting a non-starter for me. Afraid that would be a royal PITA to deal with.

With all that said, really like the lightweight Nippon 950gh shafts that are installed in my '99 Apex. Can swing those all day without being fatigued at the end of the round. And the ball flight is lower than the Pings. Loft differentials aside. Could use them in all my clubs and be satisfied with how they play. Get a sense around here that the inclination for most is towards a heavier iron feel, so I may be something of an outlier.

Another ramble. In summary, discovered that its more about overall club weight and the feel or heft to the club (or lack thereof) that makes it playable and less fatiguing over the course of a round than the flex designation. Once reasonably set up, I do not allow "spec" issues to clutter up my mind. Only want to focus on swing and not technicalities. But I'm just an average hack, that enjoys playing a variety of different golf clubs. (To many to ever get better?) So that's how I've learned to deal with it. Good luck Golfnut with discovering what works for you. Seems you're making some progress. My .02 take on the subject.

>> Nippon 950, I was thinking of buying these, I'm making a set of irons with Adams XTD heads I acquired. Thx for info.

Wriggles · March 1, 2016

I've never really worried about shaft flex or technical stuff. I really don't care for graphite shafts in irons, maybe it's just me. I've played with different shaft flexes though the years and never really saw a noticeable difference in performance. Seems that the stiffer flexes went straighter for me. Back in 2010, I bought myself a set of Callaway 2009 X-forged irons with 6.5 Rifle shafts from RBG. I watched those irons drop in price till I ordered them with free shipping right before Christmas.

I got them on Christmas Eve. There must have been almost a foot of snow out, but I hit a couple shots with a 5 iron. Straight as an arrow. I've been playing them ever since, along with the vintage stuff. The BEST irons I've ever played.

Don't worry about flex.

gsea33 · March 1, 2016

Never re-shafted a club because of flex. Played many different shafts that are factory in older clubs and more modern clubs. The only difference I see is graphite vs steel. I prefer the weight of steel and feel steel has a much smaller ball distribution. A rather good player (state am champ etc.) told me many years ago that most slicers would do much better with stiffer shafts. True or not I go by overall feel of the club. Put a good swing on any club and it will do what you asked of it.

ScooterMcTavish · March 1, 2016

I've got clubs in both S and R, and really couldn't distinguish between their flexes based on swinging.

Instead, my selection process now revolves around swingweight.

ZZ lites in the Eye2s (C9). DGS300s in the ZIngs (D0). TT Rocket Aluminum in the Hogan Bounce Sole Plus 1s (D0). All are enjoyable to swing, and all get me through 18 holes without having my back feel like a rotten tooth.

Oldplayer · March 2, 2016

I'm with some of the other posters here in that flex is not a big issue in terms of how well I hit a set of irons. What makes more difference for me is shaft weight. Now that I am more advanced in years I find it harder to load shafts like Dynamic Golds which are around 125 grams. Give me a shaft sub 105 grams and I can hit it well in any flex.

Bb2020 · March 2, 2016

Interesting info here. I have stiff irons and a stiff 3 wood, but my driver is regular flex based on hitting it with the same shaft in reg and stiff over and over...come to find out I hit the reg shaft much more consistently than a stiff shaft. Keeps me confused

NRJyzr · March 3, 2016

I spent 2015 thinking about this very thing, only one flex higher on the chain; I have been playing X in irons and woods, and wondered about backing off to stiff. I spent a fair bit of 2015 looking at distance loss.

Ultimately, I found the culprit was physical-issue-related, having spent most of 215 with a back problem, and a couple flareups of a problem with one of my big toes. Funny how much that can affect your swing. Ugh.

On top of 2015, this is something I've dealt with most of my time playing golf. Xstiff players aren't very common, people working golf shops are skeptical of distance and swingspeed claims, they generally don't want to suggest anything more than Stiff. Possibly because they don't generally stock the heavy artillery, lol. Spent a lot of time trying to shoehorn my swing into too-soft shafts.

A softer shaft will always feel better. And it might seem like it will give you similar results as the stiffer shaft. What can happen is a not immediately apparent degradation in shot result performance. You might see dispersion go up slightly, such that you don't immediately notice. Or, you might have a bit more trouble into wind, due to the slightly greater spin or higher trajectory from the softer shaft, that can easily be discounted as a less than ideal effort on that swing/shot. Two months later, you find yourself looking at scores that have been slightly higher than you're accustomed to, and not sure why.

Obviously, I'm only looking at it from the one angle. It's something that can only be judged by you, or someone who knows your game. (or maybe a launch monitor) Watch for dispersion changes, watch for wind performance, or an increase in the uglies (shots lost way left or right). Those will likely be the keys to whether it's working for you or no.

Fellaheen51 · March 3, 2016

The problem I have with launch monitors NRJ, is that they do not represent "in the wild" conditions. You're hitting indoors, off of mats, not using your preferred ball, etc. And with a swing today that may be quite unlike a swing one has mid-season. And machines that output a stream of data that may or may not have veracity. How can trajectory be determined when your ball flight comprises a sum total of maybe ten yards. Extrapolation algorithms? Furthermore, since I play with several flavors of clubs, what does one take to the test? I'm afraid if I showed up with my '99 Apex's shafted lightweight steel in R, they would think....who is this hack trying to play this setup. All playa blades are suppose to be played stiff, at a minimum. The guys running the monitors are interested in fitting you into the "right" clubs, as long as they're new ones, purchased from them. Skeptical.

As I mentioned prior, the only way I can determine whether an iron, and by extension, the installed shaft is suitable is to spend some time with it, out on the golf course. I've already eliminated certain criteria, i.e. a shaft that is considered to be on the heavy side (+125 g.). They take to much effort, on a full round basis, to swing consistently. Do not like to feel that I have to muscle the club to get it to perform.

So a starting point has to be feeling comfortable with the overall weight of the club. Particularly one which is consistently used on a full swing basis. Next I consider the tip stiffness. A softer tip will "mask" the affects of a stiffer flex. In other words, an S flex with a softer tip profile seems is easier to swing (for me) than a tip stiff shaft in R. Of the belief that the easier the club is to swing freely, the more consistent the ball striking will be, and by extension improved opportunity to play well (all other factors aside).

Idontknow. Still trying to figure things out and have fun with it. An experimentation is part of the equation. Maybe sell everything, go all in on a fully fitted set of clubs and become a scratch golfer. But what if I've been mis-informed? As always, YMMV.

NRJyzr · March 3, 2016

How can trajectory be determined when your ball flight comprises a sum total of maybe ten yards.

A good launch monitor, like a TrackMan, is measuring ballspeed, launch angle, and spin rate, including the directional axis of the spin. Using those parameters, it's possible to determine the distance and quality of a shot.

Something else you raise can be a problem, how one swings on a launch monitor compared to how one swings on the course. When I visit launch monitors, I will frequently see 5 iron distances from 5-25 yards short of what I actually hit on the course. And the employee helping me will likely internally roll their eyes at the clubs and shafts I'm hitting. Apparently, I swing differently indoors than I do on the course. I'm not sure of all the particulars, but the data doesn't lie.

Which is why I've never done much in the way of indoor fitting, other than for lie angle. And why I don't like to play "indoor golf" on a simulator, they tend to show me hitting even shorter than launch monitors. Apparently they think a 5 iron hit at a 20° launch angle is a ballooned shot. Yet another way I'm an outlier, LOL.

All of this is why I hedged my launch monitor comment with "maybe." :) Though some Trackman setups are conducted on outdoor ranges. That would be ideal, but not everyone has such a rig. ;)