Confessions 12 --- Exploding Heads

[mdgboxx]

@DeNinny
WOW, you just reminded me. I still have a Ping Rapture Original, Titanium-Composite from 2008.

[DeNinny]

And watch nowadays how the titanium content in more modern woods and drivers has become less and we see even more titanium composite material than the days of yore when it was more pure. The term composite titanium didn't even exist at one time. My R5 duals and Burners were from those days. There was only titanium*. I still play and won't switch from my Exotics CB2s precisely because their faces are full titanium* (*or at least a titanium metal composite as opposed to composite with carbon fiber).

It's expensive AF compared to composite graphite, carbon fiber, and even quality stainless steel. The club manufacturers know this, so they find a way to build a club with less of it. Use as little as needed. They find a way to structurally support the clubhead and face during impact using less and less of it, call it "forgiving" technology, and sell it at the same price point that golfers have been willing to pay for the latest "tech".

[BIG STU]

I never hit a MS-9 but owned and played a set of MP-33s for a few years and wore them out. I do have a set of battered MP-68s I have messed around with some. For me the 68s do not have quite the feel of the 33s. In fact they do not feel as soft as any of my KZGs. But for me I am a little different. I like more of a harder feel because I was raised on Mac blades. When I did the Hogan conversion on mine I never looked back. Before I got hurt I was even playing my FC Mac blades quite a bit and they hit solid. I do not know can not explain it but the 33s had a unique feel for me. For me feel is a funny thing. When I wore those 33s out I went through 3 sets and never could replicate the feel of the ones I had. Same deal with an Wilson R-90 sand wedge. I had one I carried so long I wore the face concave. Went through 5 or 6 of them never could replicate the feel. In fact gave my last experimental one to WRXer Old School Rocker when he visited me a couple of years ago. My old 588 I have a bag full of 588s and none of them feel like my old one and it is getting worn in fact I had to hog the grooves out some the other week. Miura irons in general have a unique feel for me. They are sorta like my S-500 Benz smooth with effortless power. The only hang up I would have on playing Baby Blades is some of the waste bunkers around here gouging them up. When I played the KZG irons I gouged a couple of them in waste bunkers around here. Old Macs do not show it as bad and if they do just take a file to the sole and carry on. But trust me when the right opportunity presents itself I will build me a set of Baby Blades

[DeNinny]

LOL I thought as an old geezer and bonafide club tinker that you'd have hit everything by now. The mp33 is arguably Mizunos gold standard iron. I've hit dan360's and a few others over the years and for sure I like them better than my mp67s. I think it's because the cut muscle affects the feel a little. I've also hit and loved how mp14s feel. But if you get a chance, check out the MS-9s.

In regards to how well or bad an iron wears, I really wish there was an easy way to know the true hardness value of all these iron metals. Hardness is a normalized measure of what it takes to permanently deform a material and that is exactly what happens when you gouge or abrade the metal in a bunker. If you could know this exactly for your KZGs and Macs and also for baby blades I'm sure it would match up to your real world experience where lower hardness irons wear faster and gouge easier.

And with respect to the baby blades wear, I can't tell you how it is compared to KZGs, but I can tell you that they wear at least equal if not LESS than my mp67s. And this is based on using them in the rainy PNW. Although there is a smoothness or softness to the feel of Miura steel, it's not "soft" in reality and to me I liken the feel to "crispy" soft rather than buttery Mizuno soft. Using your Benz analogy, that "effortless power" is from the high quality "hard" steel in them. The smoothness you feel is from the magic Miura forging process that literally stamps out micro and molecular defects in the steel and makes it a consistent high quality throughout it. It's an amazing feel but hard to describe because it's soft and solid at the same time. I call it "crispy" for lack of a better way to describe it.

I absolutely cannot wait to read about your baby blades. Just do it already!!! You're not getting any younger. ?

[BIG STU]

Yep know all about the Rockwell Hardness scale but do not know how to field test it. Like I have told others and I am sure you know it starts with the proprietary blends of the steel and then the forging process and for lack of a better word how hard the process gets the metal molecules compressed and tightly packed. I know some of the process from working sheet metal with a french wheel or heating it and using a body hammer. I have learned the propriety thing about metals being in the scrap business and being around the steel mills. I have had inspectors explain to me about the purity quality when we haul certain spec scrap metal. Yep my mind is always open to learn something new. People accuse me of being smart but that is how one learns ask questions and pay attention when those in the know speak. I also had an engineer explain to me the difference of high carbon vs low carbon and how it reacts in a steel furnace

[DeNinny]

In my materials science engineering lab at Berkeley we got to validate and actually measure materials properties like hardness and the Young's modulus. The lab had a ginormous hydraulic press with the ability to control and apply tremendous forces on various metals and overall materials. For hardness testing there was a super hard bit that basically was punched into the sample metal at a very precise and specific force. Then we measured the depth and overall size of the hole it created as a result of that given force. The bigger the hole created, the softer the material. You could do the same thing on your own if you had something that could produce a specific and consistent applied force. And you had a bit that was harder than the materials you are testing. It wouldn't give you the numerical hardness, but you could get a relative sense of hardness between all the different materials you evaluated. By comparing the sizes of the gouge created by the bit, under the same applied force.

And yeah to your point, there's the hardness of the raw material of the iron, but on top of that is the hardness AFTER the magic Miura forging process. This video shows their process

https://youtu.be/LYRExo2lrvkWow that is an impressive forge. In four "stamps" the forging is done. That's so much force to do in a few minutes what took Japanese katana blacksmiths to do with thousands of hammer blows. And the result is steel even harder than the original raw material because all the defects have been stamped out and the carbon-iron mixture is more evenly distributed throughout it on a molecular level. This is why I highly doubt that you will have wear issues with your baby blades. Just get them already!

Based on all the knowledge you mentioned I think the only thing "missing" for you to tie all that information together is to know the literal mathematics behind the material properties. As far as I'm concerned, once you know the mathematics of materials science (which includes that of hardness and temporary deformation) and of static and dynamic forces on physical structures, then you can understand the complete physics of golf very well. And you can see through all the marketing BS "science" without relying on just personal experience and anecdotal observation. You know EXACTLY what is BS marketing "science". And what is true. Although I didn't go to school for golf, using all of my engineering education has enabled me to "see" the complete physics of it entirely. And I mean down to the molecular level. And it's what makes me infuriated with "forgiving" club manufacturers that still push pi$$ poor designs onto the masses just for profit and to the detriment of the ignorant golfer that just paid for it, thinking that it should help his game. It's a crying shame.

[DeNinny]

I just went to the TaylorMade site for the Max OS "forgiving" irons features and after just sifting through the marketing BS I saw that the loft of the PW is now 43*. And now the AW is 48* which is the same loft as most classic iron PWs!

Spoiler alert: if you want your current irons to go farther, strengthen their lofts by 4-5*. No need to waste your money on new "tech".

I mean seriously. If the iron technology is so "great" and better, prove it by at least keeping the same loft and length (and weight) of the comparison club. If the technology is still so great, it will stand out even under apples to apples condition. It's ridiculous now that loft jacking an iron is to the point that it's a full iron number now. SHAME ON YOU, TaylorMade. And all you other "forgiving" club manufacturers. Your "forgiving technology" is weak AF!

[BIG STU]

43* called a PW??? Holy Crap Batman ( drops mike) In my world that is a strong Macgregor 9 iron. My lofts 47* PW and 44* 9 iron and that is jacked 2* from stock. Yep old butter knife soles with no bounce to begin with it can really make them dig if you go more than that. Now with certain new sole designs you can jack them 4* or more even though I do not recommend bending any iron more than that due to structural issues in the hosel ie: stretching the metal too much causing stress fatigue and another issue is screwing with the offset. But yeah I know these new clubs are cast with the lofts in the design like the offset.

[DeNinny]

LOL it's just ridiculous and shameless what the "forgiving" club manufacturers are now doing to give the faux appearance that their "forgiving technology" is actually doing anything.

And I confess I no longer waste time debating the issues with "forgiving" club advocates on WRX. I just state the facts in one post and move on. I've realized that it's futile with people that are stuck and obsessed with golf marketing "science". They're just as convinced that they're right as much as I am convinced that I'm right. LOL but I still get a chuckle because I know have reality and the laws of physics on my side. ?

[DeNinny]

@BIG STU yeah I really don't like having to get my lie angles adjusted too often. It's a permanent deformation of the metal each time, so over time it will weaken the metal and then you will have to do it more often.

[DeNinny]

@BIG STU if you could go back to when you were in your competitive prime, exactly what bag would you game? I'm talking the whole bag from putter to driver here. What heads, shafts, grips, specs. Build your all time dream bag for me.

[BIG STU]

Well lets see if it is now and you are talking metal woods etc it would be pretty much what I have now. Going back in my 20s it was a set of 66 Power Bilt Citation irons what they call the horseshoe with a Spalding Elite 333 custom 10 iron and a Wilson R-90. Driver was a Citation Blonde and 4 wood was an old H&B I also carried a Karsten I 1 iron and a Northwestern 6 wood. Putter was either an Anser or Zing 2.I also had a Izette driver that was stolen with the set of 72 model Elite 333 customs and the 4 wood was a 64 model Spalding 4 1/2 and I believe the putter with that set was a Ping Y blade. LOL I became a Mac man when my Spaldings were stolen along with the Corvette they were in

Now today if I was to build a set and was in my prime it would have to be Miura and more than likely Miura wedges or Mizuno T series. Driver I would probably stay in the Homna line fairways and hybrids I am not sure of. And for darn sure ain't sure of the putter

[DeNinny]

Stick with your today scenario, but you are still in your prime. What Miura irons and what shafts? Also up to what #iron before you transitioned to FW or hybrid?

As to the putter, it doesn't have to be modern it can be whatever you wanted but based on today's courses and the modern ball.

Thanks for indulging me on this.

[DeNinny]

@BIG STU think of it as what bag would you play at the 2021 Masters?

[dan360]

I had PING Eye 2 becu's with their titanium shafts back in the 90s. Manufactured by Sandvik I believe..

[DeNinny]

How were they?

[BIG STU]

OK Baby Blades or Tournament Blades and I would carry up to the 2 iron and have it bent back to 18* or so. No hybrids and only one FW wood. The FW would more than likely be Titleist or TM M series. Driver would more than likely be a Ping 400 series or a Homna Tour World 727. Putter cheese whiz I have no idea maybe a Toulon Anser style. Baby Blades when I look down at address look and sit just like a old Mac. Shafts in the irons If I could still swing them would be DG S-400 Tour Issue. Shafts in the woods would be UST Pro Force Gold 65 man I loved those thins back when I could swing them.

[DeNinny]

Nice! BBs FTW!!!

And by 18* 2i, do you mean one like this?

LOL my good buddy, we gotta play a round together. And swap clubs and sh*t!!!

[BIG STU]

You are darn skippy on that--- Since I carry only 2 wedges most of the time and took my 3 and 4 irons out for the hybrid I do carry my VIP 2 iron bent back to 19*. I can still hit it about 6 feet high with a 3 yard cut rolls out to about 210 or so. Down here the guys call it the Stuey Stinger of course I deloft the driver some and hit the little stinger cut too with it. I have not messed with much Miura stuff lately my friend that was a dealer and fitter retired.

BTW see you still have the famous cat

[DeNinny]

@BIG STU it's interesting we both play PW-2i. LOL but my 2i only goes 200. ?
The way I see it, my BBs are my easiest club to hit in my bag, so why not play as many of them as possible? In fact I hopefully will have a custom 53* Miuraism in a few weeks. My Japanese golf buddy is hooking me up with it. The 'Miuraism' line is the Japanese version of the BB. Same exact design but different stamping on the back. I cannot freaking wait for it!!! That will get me to only my 60* as my only traditional sized wedge.
Yeah that's my boy 'Diablo' but that's an old pic. He's more than just my cat. He's my "familiar". He follows me everywhere around the house and he just wants me to pet and hold him all the time. I've never had a cat so affectionate.

[DeNinny]

BTW @BIG STU today I was channeling my inner Stuey with my satin BB set. (LOL they are my beater BBs.) On my first iron shot of the day on #1 I hit this 160 yd perfect cut (just like Stuey does) into a small headwind and it rolled behind the hole by 6'. It felt so sweet too. LOL I missed the putt but still made par. And all day I was hitting my irons better than anything else. Not great all the time but overall pretty good. Better than my putter and driver.
I have to tell you too that I am not overly analytical with my swing much at all from a mechanical standpoint anymore. You'd be proud. Not playing for so long has also helped me forget my swing demons as well as my touch, so I feel like it's a good time to start ingraining good habits and not going back to bad ones.

[BIG STU]

Cats do take up with people from time to time. I had one take up here at the house a few years back. Pretty yellow orange color. I started feeding him. Never brought him in the house because my Boston Terrier did not like cats. But be assured anytime I was in the shop and yard he was there. We think a Coyote got him.

As far as the golf swing I have always been a proponent of the home made natural swing. Back when I could go back sometimes I had a loop to get it back on plane. This loop was entirely natural and I did not know when I did it. Now I have gotten older I do not pull it back as far so no loop. I also stand really open to prevent a hook which was my problem when I was younger. Basically I invented my anti hook swing. I also cut across the ball. LOL a lot of guys have the alignment sticks down to see if their divots are straight. I have mine down to make sure I am cutting across it. Now I do lose some distance but I do have ball control and I can spin and stop a short iron when no one else can. But my swing and game is mine and mine alone right or wrong.

Now on your swing--- People like you who are highly intelligent their mind works to retain as much info as possible. My Doctor is like that. He is a MD and one of the top heart doctors on the East Coast. Needless to say he is very intelligent and retains info like a sponge. He got so confused from reading golf magazines and watching instruction on the Golf Channel he absolutely could not hit a ball. He asked me to help him. I told him I was not a instructional guru. First off I told him to throw away every golf magazine and book he had. Had him quit watching instructional programs on GC. I did show him what and where the hitting zone was. Still it takes him a while to clear his mind . One day on the range he asked me if he was pronating or what ever on the back swing. I told him I did not care how far he took it back or what plane it was on as long as he was in the proper position in the hitting zone. He asked something else and I had to get graphic to illustrate my point. I told him I did not are if he stuck the grip in his right ear going back and in his A$$ coming down get it in the zone. Took him a while and he finally got it. He does not play a lot but he is tall and athletic and hits it pretty decent.He did go from not breaking 100 to shooting high 80s. IMHO one has to find their own groove. I can tell you one tour pro mechanics ruined his game Charles Howell III He got into too much mechanics and his game suffered. So what I say to you is develop your own swing with out mechanics and develop your own tempo. One deadly sin in the swing on the course is trying to control one's natural tempo. Nick Price comes to mind here, According to the gurus he had a fast swing. To me that was his natural tempo and he done pretty darn well with it. Now on the opposite side of the tracks look at Nancy Lopez or In Bee Park both have a pause in their back swing before starting down. LOL if I was to try that I would get so quick coming down I would fan the ball. One of my faults is if I get fast on the back swing I am pulling that club back with my right hand and not turning my shoulders. I have a drill for that as in I drag the club back some. Even do that on the course playing. Now I do have some wedge shots I want to pull the club back with that right hand and hands it through fast. But throw away all the guru BS and find your own groove

Note: There is no way in Hades I would play those pretty black Miura irons down here in this sandy and salt environment, They would look like crap in a few rounds.

[DeNinny]

I hear you Maestro Stu about the natural swing. And having my own, mine alone, and feeling it. But I still gotta tell you that underneath that feeling is still a technical and mechanical foundation. To be clear, though, it's MY technical and mechanical foundation now, based on both 1) what I know works from just experience and my own natural habits and 2) what I know from analyzing it in depth as an engineer and ideal physics standpoint. To be clear, though, it's not anything about what I read in an instruction book or what some pro mentioned in a post. Just like it's my own natural swing, it's also my own technical breakdown of it. Remember that I'm a confident engineer and I do trust in physics (because the laws of it are describing reality), so everything that I do in the swing still has to make technical sense. It's just now I understand the mechanics in terms of feel and body limitations. Also fundamental to all of this is still my mental model of the ideal swing as my technical and mechanical foundation on what to do, but what's different now is that it's just a guide, not a step by step instruction book cluttering my head. It's just a compass for me and an "ideal state" for my swing that I strive towards. I know how my own personal natural swing fits into that guide, but I don't obsess if it is not technically perfect because I also know that not all technical mechanics have to be exact but you can still hit a perfect shot with them.

Remember I come from a skateboarding background, and I will tell you that it is also highly technical and mechanical like the golf swing is. Flipping and spinning the board various ways and then trying to time how to land back on it properly is highly technical. It requires both fast reflexes and guts. And it happens so fast that you really cannot think about it in the process of doing it. You've simply got to execute it by an initial mechanical setup to it to get your feet and balance right and then BOOM you just 'bust' it by natural habits ingrained by practicing it over and over again. I don't see golf any different.

Also I've become a bit of a swing whisperer now. Because I have a mental model of the ideal swing, I can see how others' natural swings fit into it, and moreover how all swings can have their own personal variety but still fit into it. Yesterday I was with a guy that started struggling and getting a little frustrated. He was a big guy and had to bend over a bit. And while there were a lot of little nitpicky things he could work on, I knew these weren't what his biggest issue was. Again because of my ideal swing model I immediately identified that he was drifting off the ball and also dipping his head as he took his backswing. This was causing him to hit it fat and all kinds of issues. And it was progressively getting worse as the game went on. Probably because he was getting tired. After a really bad shot and seeing him frustrated I asked him if he wanted to know what I see. He said, "yes, PLEASE." I explained to him that he was drifting off the ball as he took the club back and also as he raised it above his shoulders he was dipping his head. I further explained to him why it was bad to do that because then he has to compensate for all those extra movements in order to come back to impact right. It was like a light bulb to him and he started correcting it and he got his swing back. And he was very thankful for the help. Made me feel pretty good that I could see his immediate issues.

I find myself doing this a lot now. When I'm paying close attention and analyzing swings, I can see egregious swing issues fairly easily. But also I can see the differences in good swings too, and how there can still be all those differences but beneath them all is still an ideal swing model that's still common to all. It still applies and even encompasses all those differences. It's a new dimension to my golf now and I'm enjoying it. I love analyzing swings now.

[DeNinny]

[BIG STU]

Yep you got it in your own way----- And remember not all brains are the same either. You process highly technical things a little faster than I do. But basically in your own way you have figured out YOUR swing in the natural. And i will give you something to look forward to in your old age. As you get your swing grooved in it will seem more natural to your body and you get muscle memory. When you get older and get out of your groove that your body is used to you will feel it the next day. And believe it or not that can tell you what is wrong. If my right elbow and fore arm hurt the next day it means I was picking the club up with my right arm instead of rotating my shoulders. If my lower back is hurting means I was not turning good and forcing the issue. The first issue I mentioned for me can lead to the second issue.

Now with my recent injuries it is going to take a bunch of time and PT to get me to where I was. Right now I am not doing any official PT but do stand and turn my back and shoulders some to stay sorta in the groove. I am not allowed to swing a club or work with my 5 lb weights even if the Doc tells me not to do it I am not going to attempt it because it hurts to even do the little I do. I have been attempting to putt some to keep my feel and the back Doc gave me an ok on that. Since I can not bend I built me a broomstick Bobby Grace out of one of them I had. I can not do but 5 or 6 putts in one stretch and then have to sit down. LOL I carry one of my Anser putters to pick balls up with. I already knew this but both Docs have warned me that at my age (63) if I mess this up I may be messed up the rest of my life. So I am taking it easy trust me

[DeNinny]

Things to look forward to in my old age? LOL brother Stuey I'm there already pushing 50. With me I typically feel pain in my lead wrist which is tied to hitting it fat because of not staying in balance as I swing and letting the centripetal force of it pull me forward as I downswing. I have various other achy signals as well.

Also as I have been getting more attuned to my swing and getting better at it I have realized that it is like all sports in that it gets easier with experience. It takes overall less effort to perform an athletic move well, and the golf swing is no different. A golfer really has a limited amount of energy to use to swing the club, and it is ideal for him not to expend that energy towards incorrect, inefficient, and even physically damaging movements. All of these lead to a poor golf shot. Better is to have an efficient and consistent swing where the movements are simple, seemingly effortless, and all geared towards a clean strike with maximum clubhead velocity. All energy is channeled towards a good golf shot. And as we get older our bodies can literally feel the physical issues and inefficiencies more than our younger selves. And it's both from experience and our bodies getting weaker.

[dan360]

The PING titanium shafts were stiff. It was an experiment with my dad's money back then, ended up staying with S300s at the time. Also tried the G-Loomis graphites. Meh.

and I confess to not knowing much of anything about my swing other than it's ugly, sometimes works, and I need to be careful not to slide forward and release early. My head moves a lot, always has.

[DeNinny]

I would like to see some real titanium shafts.

For the record your swing is not what I consider ugly at all. It has a lot of good things, your release action being one of them.

And as to your sliding forward and head moving a lot - methinks this is also why your swing only *sometimes* works. ??

[dan360]

JD had the titanium shafts in his Eye2's when he won the 1991 PGA.

There was a company up around here someplace still making them as of about a decade ago. TiSports I think was their name.

 

....I have an Eye 2+ 1 iron with the ti shaft, from days of yore gone by that you can check out. Just don't vomit on it.

[DeNinny]

I will definitely take you up on checking out that Ti shaft. I promise not to vomit but that Eye 2 might make me dry heave. ?

Just shot 38-40 out at Heron Lakes. Twas a great day out with the wife and once again I was channeling my inner Stuey. My swing feels better than ever and I'm getting my short game back. Finally my golf flames are rekindled rather than a slow smoulder. The wife also shot an awesome 51 over nine.