The New Tour Swing

[xltsk8]

Baddeley, Weir, Mackenzie, ...

I read the GD article about the "New Tour Swing". It said that Plummer and Bennett carry binders full of pictures and graphs. GD also said that they base their swing on BASIC GEOMETRIC MOVEMENTS. Does anyone know what those basic geometric movements are or what they ACTUALLY carry in their binders. Any info is great.
Thanks :russian_roulette: :clapping: :clapping:

[robbyvegas]

DISCLAIMER: I know close to nothing about this... Take this comment for what it is worth.

 

Having said that, I recently had the opportunity to talk to Mike Weir about his swing changes. He put on a great demo in the Salt Lake City area and a good deal of the demo revolved around his new swing. He said that he was more upright in his posture (Apparently he has changed his swing, due in large part to back problems... the more upright swing has relieved a lot of those problems). He went on to say that he uses no lateral movement in the hips (i.e. his weight remains balanced over both feet from the beginning of the swing to the end... no weight shift to the back foot on the backswing, visa versa on the downswing). Someone asked him how he compensated for the loss of power from giving up this lateral hip movement. Mike's response was that there was actually a power increase. The analogy that he drew was one of a ball on a string. He said to imagine how fast you could spin the ball around holding onto the end of the string. He pointed out that the ball moved fastest if you could make only small movements with your hand, rather than trying to swing the ball by using your whole arm. He suggested that simply rotating over his base (in the basic geometry of a circle... as opposed to a two plane swing with sliding hips and weight shifts) made for a much faster club head speed that put less pressure on his back and gave him more control (I suspect that he believes he will have more control once he perfects his new swing... he seems to have had some problems with it so far).

 

I haven't a clue as to what someone would carry in a binder. Have they just hit a lot of shots and documented average trajectories and distances for their various shots? I could see how that would come in handy. Maybe it is a flip chart with a big green circle and a red oval or square with an X through it to remind them of the basic geometric shape they are going for and which ones to avoid :russian_roulette: (j/k).

 

Anyway, That is what I gleaned from Mike Weir on that one. The other thing that he mentioned that has stuck with me, is that he thinks that people tee their balls up too high with modern drivers. He said that he thinks a high tee advocates an attempt to come at the ball from underneath and that he believes that driver shots should be hit 'down and through' just like every other shot.

 

Cheers,

Rob

[HolganElsnick]

Rob

 

Great post. Did Weir say anything about his backswing? Having read the GD article, I paid attention to him during the AT&T; he's always been a quick swinger, like Nick Price, so I'm not sure he's really shortened his swing any but it does look like he takes it back very close to his left side and on a shallow plane, as the GD S&T article suggests. Wonder if he had any problems with that or said anything about it.

 

Cheers

[spider]

You may if you have the time want to check out this thread on the Stack and Tilt by Plummer and Bennett

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=86690

 

:russian_roulette:

[MWL]

He went on to say that he uses no lateral movement in the hips (i.e. his weight remains balanced over both feet from the beginning of the swing to the end... no weight shift to the back foot on the backswing, visa versa on the downswing)

 

So your telling me Mike Weir now swings like Mr.Havercamp from Caddyshack.. "..no no Mr.Weir sir, the holes over this way .."

[dcmidnight]

Didnt want to add this in the GD forum itself, but interesting to read that in Golf Magazine this month, while devoting two whole pages to Rod Pamplings swing, warns people more than once that this swing is for the pros only. In fact in about 8 different places in two pages they say dont even think of trying this swing at home. They call the swing:

 

"Risky Business"

"...a move that would spell disaster for most of us"

"...works for some pros its potentially hazardous for amateurs"

"...the reason it works is the very reason its dangerous for amateurs"

"The stacking trick is for the pros"

[robbyvegas]

Rob

 

Great post. Did Weir say anything about his backswing? Having read the GD article, I paid attention to him during the AT&T; he's always been a quick swinger, like Nick Price, so I'm not sure he's really shortened his swing any but it does look like he takes it back very close to his left side and on a shallow plane, as the GD S&T article suggests. Wonder if he had any problems with that or said anything about it.

 

Cheers

 

sniff sniff sigh. That is the first time someone has complimented one of my posts... Thanks :aggressive:

 

Weir did talk a bit about the backswing. he said that in order to keep weight evenly distributed, he straightened out his back leg (left leg for him, right leg for the majority of us out there) during the backswing. He made it very clear that he didn't lock the back knee when straightening, but simply extended it. He also talked about what he did with his head and shoulders but frankly I can't remember exactly what he said. I remember thinking that it sounded intelligent but not new. He probably talked about getting his front shoulder over the ball or something we have all heard before :cheesy:. (reading this again before I post it, Mike also talked at length about balance which he said was what set pros apart from the amateurs he had worked and played with. He also said that maintaining evenly distributed balance made him feel as though he was leaning a bit in one direction... I cant remember which but suspect he felt as though he was leaning a little heavily on his front foot even though his weight was really evenly distributed. Don't quote me on that... I'm pulling it from my you know what.)

 

He did say that his swing was very much one-plane and that his takeaway/swing was more upright/vertical as his updated stance was more upright. I don't recall (although he could have talked about it) much discussion as to the specific problems that he was experiencing as a result of the swing change. Only that he had seen some consistency and confidence issues with his new swing, but that he was feeling a lot better about it as of late (that was in April or May and he seems to have only become somewhat more efficient or confident with it as of this weekend's match if the Leader Boards are considered a good indicator. Anyone have comments as to the effect that the time limit had on poor Weir this weekend? I was pretty bummed watching him bogey one hole after another once that set in).

 

On a side note, he also talked at length (and provided demonstrations) of shaping his shots. The way that he described it, he opened or closed the face only slightly at address, then he thought (maybe he said 'visualized') about hitting the ball on a particular spot on the ball that was either a little inside or outside. He suggested that it would take practice... I'm still practicing....

 

Cheers

Rob

[robbyvegas]

He went on to say that he uses no lateral movement in the hips (i.e. his weight remains balanced over both feet from the beginning of the swing to the end... no weight shift to the back foot on the backswing, visa versa on the downswing)

 

So your telling me Mike Weir now swings like Mr.Havercamp from Caddyshack.. "..no no Mr.Weir sir, the holes over this way .."

 

I've seen the movie and don't quite remember who you are talking about. Sorry. To clarify a little, he clearly uses his hips as he rotates around his spine, they just don't slide forward or backward during the swing. As a newer golfer myself, I dont see the benefit of sliding the hips... What power can be generated there? I would think that sliding the hips forward on the downswing would actually make it difficult to rotate the hips; I think that starting the swing by rotating (not sliding) the hips is the keystone to the beautiful chain reaction that pulls the shoulders around once enough torque has been generated, which pulls the arms down and accelerates them through the ball. Maybe someone out there can explain to me the virtue of the hula-dance/golf swing.

[ej002]

For the hip slide argument:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inC8gkGcBtg

 

But I have noticed that when I start my weight already forward in the swing, I strike the ball better. It is just easier (less slide) to hit the ball IMO.

 

I cannot believe Wier said to hit a driver "down and through". That is crazy, especially with the new driver technology = high launch, low spin.

[robbyvegas]

I cannot believe Wier said to hit a driver "down and through". That is crazy, especially with the new driver technology = high launch, low spin.

 

:aggressive: I think that I agree with you on that one. However, I am absolutely sure that he said to tee the ball lower and to swing down and through. He had a reason for it and provided examples of each. When he teed up high and came at the ball from underneath, the ball started on a straight trajectory and then ballooned upward at the end... the result was that the ball fell to the ground more vertically and he got less roll. When teed up so that the middle of the ball was just barely above the sweet spot when the club face rested on the ground, the ball flew in an even arc the whole way, obviously resulting in more roll (I suspect that not ballooning at the end also helped his distance just a bit).

 

I don't think that all pro golfers have really solid understandings about swing mechanics or ball flight, so I think that it may be wise to take what they SAY with a little grain of salt. Having said that, they definitely hit a LOT more balls than most of the rest of us do, so even if they have trouble putting it into words, they have got the feel down and know what works for them. Mike is clearly getting more distance than he was with his old swing (anyone see him at the AT&T?). If HIS swing gets better distance swinging down and through the ball with a driver, I say "More Power to You Mike". As for me, I've tried teeing it up lower and found myself taking divots 2 feet behind the ball. I'm not entirely sure that I can say whether I got more distance or not... I spent too much time nursing my bruised ego with my brothers-in-law mocking me as I filled yet another oversized divot. I gave up trying it after the front 9.

 

I remember watching him glance at the Taylormade rep as he said that though... The rep just looked down at his feet... :cheesy:

[ej002]

I remember watching him glance at the Taylormade rep as he said that though... The rep just looked down at his feet... :aggressive:

HAHAHA ( I bet the don't like him going around saying this).

 

I did not mean to say you did not hear that; I believe he said that. I just don't understand the reason for it. I don't tee the ball up too high, but the middle of ball is probably above the top of the club. I definately could use more roll. Middle of the ball at the sweet spot = is about 1/8th of the ball above the top of the head.

 

Do you know if he was hitting it on his upswing though? Or was he really going down at it?

So does this lower his overall trajectory?

 

I would think that this creates more spin.

 

We should start a post on this

[robbyvegas]

I'll be the first to admit that Hogan is an excellent example for anyone. I've read the 5 lessons a few times now and learn more each time. Could someone please explain to me why he is putting his weight onto his front foot with a hip slide? When I go through that motion slowly I feel like the more weight I put on my front leg, the more restricted my hip rotation gets. Don't you want to maximize the torque between hips and shoulders? Wouldn't that be most easily accomplished by getting as much hip rotation as possible on the downswing?

[ej002]

I think that Hogan does this because his weight is still set up toward the back foot (old traditional way), and he has to get to his front foot. He liked to hit the ball with 95% of his weight on the front foot.

Stack and tilt guys start the weight more on the right foot, and therefore dont have as much hip slide. So you are probabaly okay.

[robbyvegas]

We could definitely start a post on this. From the other reading that I've done here, it sounds as though Weir is a "stack and tilt" swinger now. Is that accurate?

 

Without a camera there, I couldn't really tell you whether he is striking down on the ball or not. You are right though... swinging down and through does create more spin which I would assume would limit his distance rather than increase it. Maybe he has the ball teed up forward in his stance and swings down and through the middle of his stance... then he would be catching the ball on the upswing... Who knows though. Did they do a swing vision analysis of Mike Weir during the AT&T? If so I'll bet we can find it online and take a look at it.

[ej002]

I dont have a flash player at work, or else I would looking at it. I think he is a stack and tilt guy now. If not he is definately of the one plane. I am still unclear on the whole stack/tilt thing, but I know a big part of it is limiting weight shift by starting the weight forward already. So that sounds like your description of what Weir was saying.

[DanZ]

Any idea how much loft on his driver? That would effect optimal teeing height, especially if it's a deep faced driver with alot of roll in the face.

[BeautifulNice]

Could someone please explain to me why he is putting his weight onto his front foot with a hip slide? When I go through that motion slowly I feel like the more weight I put on my front leg, the more restricted my hip rotation gets. Don't you want to maximize the torque between hips and shoulders? Wouldn't that be most easily accomplished by getting as much hip rotation as possible on the downswing?

 

Tried to post before but it didn't go through so I'll try again. Just wanted to say that you should spend an evening reading the plummer and bennett thread to answer your question. SliceFixer has been studying Hogan's swing most of his life and believes Hogan didn't slide as much as you might think. Thinks he actually didn't move his left hip to the right much at all. So that instead of slide, all you really have is core rotation and weight transfer. A fascinating thread and SF's theory of the swing is very interesting. You should spend some time reading some of his posts. You'll get a good feel for where he's coming from, and it may help you. I know it helped me.

[robbyvegas]

Any idea how much loft on his driver? That would effect optimal teeing height, especially if it's a deep faced driver with alot of roll in the face.

 

I don't know what loft he had on his driver. I do know that for a while, he was carrying the Burner as well as the Superquad. He swung both for us and indicated that he was trying to decide which one to keep in his bag. He seemed to be leaning towards the look of the Burner.

[ej002]

Neither of those are really that deep faced. They are your standard 460 head. The superquad may be a little deeper, but it is nothing like a 905S or something along those lines.

[STagain]

there is a difference between feelin like swinging "down and through" and actually striking a golf ball with a descending blow. without seeing weir's swing, i can confidently say that the clubhead is either striking the ball at the bottom of his arc or just towards the front of it (upswing).

 

no matter what philosophy you subscribe to, the golf club travels in circle/arc. thinking "down and through" keeps it on that arc.

 

we all agree that the club should be travelling level/slighty up as a driver strikes a golf ball but physically trying to make this happen will probably lead to dipping, hanging back, etc.

[tanj]

This is my swing at the moment, no influences of the stack and tilt swing. But I am starting to notice SOME characteristics of the stack and tilt in my swing. Can anyone confirm this? Otherwise, if this is going to turn out like that one/two plane thread, don't bother and I'll delete this post. (The .gif takes a while to load but it speeds up once it has.

 

 

 

 

Josh

[tiltmaestro]

just to elaborate on this post im quite sure that when you say "upright" in mike posture you mean as viewed from the from and not from the back. he was always side tilted quitte a bit....and its obvious that his head and torso are slightly down more as viewed from behind

[tiltmaestro]

to high. thin hit high spin. tee it low to hit the ball high on the face

[tiltmaestro]

guys im qite sure that mike in his clinic said no lateral motion on his backswing nad a hip slide and hip turn on his follow thru

[tiltmaestro]

you do have some s and principals in there tanj....hand path, straightening right leg, and the thrus on the finish....kudos to you for learning hw to see it!!!

[tbyeaton0627]

Didnt want to add this in the GD forum itself, but interesting to read that in Golf Magazine this month, while devoting two whole pages to Rod Pamplings swing, warns people more than once that this swing is for the pros only. In fact in about 8 different places in two pages they say dont even think of trying this swing at home. They call the swing:

 

"Risky Business"

"...a move that would spell disaster for most of us"

"...works for some pros its potentially hazardous for amateurs"

"...the reason it works is the very reason its dangerous for amateurs"

"The stacking trick is for the pros"

 

This swing is risky business because nobody really knows what its about...they tell you not to try it at home because theres more to it then in the article and there making pros sound like some kind of gods...are they not people who are structred biomechanically like amateurs???

[tanj]

If you want to try this new swing, STOP. I just had lesson with my teacher who is well respected in Australia, the head of VIS golf in Victoria that coaches the elite players in our state. He said, that he disagreed with the stack and tilt swing not because of the result but because of HEALTH. Showing me a picture of Baddely in the lean, he said that he could do it because he was young and would not eventual harm the well being of his back.

 

However, updating on my previous post, he said that my swing with the back moving back on the backswing was fine...

 

Take care!

Josh