LEARN PROPERLY or COVER POOR TECHNIQUE with equipment?

[justStarting]

How do you make it to single digits?

This is a long one so if you are able to offer unbiased wise advice I'd appreciate you taking the time. Thx.


I have played golf a time or two every couple of years since I was a kid. Not nearly enough to be consistent with anything. I am now 40 and last year managed to play about a dozen times. My game improved dramatically with some advice from friends. Dramatically meaning I can break a hundred. That's 20 strokes off from the beginning of last year. I realized that with some good advice and instruction I can continue to improve and have a decent game that won't embarass myself or people I am playing with. More importantly not whack a ball into a house or car!

Here is the dilemma. I want to learn how to play properly. That means if I am doing something wrong with my swing I want to change it. For instance, I have a slice. With some advice from friends I have straightened it out quite a bit. I therefore have the ability to make changes and I'm not an old dog that can't learn new tricks.

I have been playing with a set of fitted irons that i paid $200 for. They put in an inch of length and 2deg of lie (that's tilt the front of the head down and away to lay flat right?) I am 6'5". I bought those clubs about 9 years ago. I understand the need for fitted clubs for different height people.

I want the lastest technology equipment but don't want it to fix flaws in my swing. I feel as though I should make corrections to my swing (through lessons) to make the ball go where I want it not buy clubs that cover up the problem(s).

That said, there are MAX Game Improvement Irons and Game Improvement Irons. One of the MAX sets was the Taylormade Draw R7. It is designed to help slicers but does it help by teaching not to slice? If not, you are never able to step up in clubs, you must always swing that crutch. You can't move up to say the 775CB or X20 or MX25 all considered to be game improvement sets.

I definitely need maximum improvement but if one is looking to improve over the long run to a single digit handicap don't you have to learn to walk without a crutch? It seems to me if you want to play well you have to buy a decent set of clubs that aren't too difficult to hit but they shouldn't cover up your problems or you will never fix them.

Ok, time for everyone to chime in and advise me how to go about this and the theory behind how to move up in clubs and performance. Thanks in advance.

[MBuckler]

you just need to ask yourself....are you a club ho or are you not?

 

.....

 

 

seriously...do you want to buy new stuff everytime you start striking the ball better or do you want to work through the struggles?

 

not saying there is a right or wrong way to do it b/c i bet you there are plenty of people who have done it both ways.

[ilikedng]

Proper technique is definitely the way to go...

 

However, how much time you want to spend playing should also be a deciding factor.

 

If I only play about a dozen time a year, or average of once a month. I may just go with the TM Draw R7 and enjoy my rounds.

[justStarting]

Both good points and I didn't take the "how much time I have to play" factor into consideration. That's a good one.

 

My main hobby is auto racing. I run at places like Pocono, Watkins Glen, VIR, Summit, etc. I have a competitive car and continue to improve with the same equipment. I can judge that by my lap times coming down and my finish positions moving up. Every 6 months or so I have my instructor, mentor, friend drive my car and put down a fast time. He is far more experienced and can show me how much I have left to get out of the car or "equipment" by his faster times. I know that I can still improve enough to get another 1.5 seconds out of the car because he can drive it that much faster. By the way, 1.5 seconds compares to a handicap like going from a scratch golfer to a 10+ handicap.

 

My thoughts were get good (not great) clubs and work on them until I have all that I can get out of them. BUT, as this is a 2nd hobby, and as was just pointed out, I probably won't have that much time to play and it could be a very long process. Draw R7 could be back on the board.

 

We are already getting closer to an answer. Thanks!

[Furrankee]

This is a long one so if you are able to offer unbiased wise advice I'd appreciate you taking the time. Thx.

 

 

I have played golf a time or two every couple of years since I was a kid. Not nearly enough to be consistent with anything. I am now 40 and last year managed to play about a dozen times. My game improved dramatically with some advice from friends. Dramatically meaning I can break a hundred. That's 20 strokes off from the beginning of last year. I realized that with some good advice and instruction I can continue to improve and have a decent game that won't embarass myself or people I am playing with. More importantly not whack a ball into a house or car!

 

Here is the dilemma. I want to learn how to play properly. That means if I am doing something wrong with my swing I want to change it. For instance, I have a slice. With some advice from friends I have straightened it out quite a bit. I therefore have the ability to make changes and I'm not an old dog that can't learn new tricks.

 

I have been playing with a set of fitted irons that i paid $200 for. They put in an inch of length and 2deg of lie (that's tilt the front of the head down and away to lay flat right?) I am 6'5". I bought those clubs about 9 years ago. I understand the need for fitted clubs for different height people.

 

I want the lastest technology equipment but don't want it to fix flaws in my swing. I feel as though I should make corrections to my swing (through lessons) to make the ball go where I want it not buy clubs that cover up the problem(s).

 

That said, there are MAX Game Improvement Irons and Game Improvement Irons. One of the MAX sets was the Taylormade Draw R7. It is designed to help slicers but does it help by teaching not to slice? If not, you are never able to step up in clubs, you must always swing that crutch. You can't move up to say the 775CB or X20 or MX25 all considered to be game improvement sets.

 

I definitely need maximum improvement but if one is looking to improve over the long run to a single digit handicap don't you have to learn to walk without a crutch? It seems to me if you want to play well you have to buy a decent set of clubs that aren't too difficult to hit but they shouldn't cover up your problems or you will never fix them.

 

Ok, time for everyone to chime in and advise me how to go about this and the theory behind how to move up in clubs and performance. Thanks in advance.

 

If you want to buy equipment:

 

- make sure your lie angles are adjusted TO YOUR SETUP

- make sure you buy clubs with square faces. Don't get anything with a closed face.

- buy clubs with minimal offset.

 

Baseball bats don't come with offsets or alterations. Think the same with golf clubs.

 

Anyway, the quickest way from point to point is a straight line.

 

www.brianmanzella.com/forum

 

That's all you really need.

[smithg1053]

My 2 cents worth going through the bag:

 

Driver - Concensus is that if you are playing a driver older than 3 years (and really probably 2) then you are at a bit of disadvantage insofar as technology offering assistance. I read an article recently in one of the golf rags where a physics type did a study on this year's crop of drivers, and according to his analysis, they are at about 97% efficiency rating of what they could be "perfectly" and still be legal under USGA rules. Now...I am sure some will argue the points but I played a Titleist 905R (new last year) and went to a 907D2 this year and I have noticed an improvement in performance. I probably won't jump on next year's model. This part of the game has really become a science with computers that will help assist in fitting the correct loft and shaft type and flex to your swing. Again....certainly if your current driver is past 3 years old...you are probably giving up something. I am sure others would argue that point...but such is life.

 

Fairway Woods - Probably the same as drivers but more decisions here having to do with the depth of the face, whether or not it has a draw bias, etc. etc. Some are more "players clubs" and others more "game improvement" (that is unforgiving versus forgiving). Again shaft selection becomes a real player in choosing the right stick based on what you do now.

 

Hybrids - In the spectrum of things, fairly new as far as acceptance is concerned, but they are easier than hitting long irons. They are now expanding and I have friends who's highest iron in their bag is a 6. At this point again, more decisions tempered with what is your current ability and where do you want to go. Higher lofted hybrids are easy to hit, but harder to be able to work the ball left to right and vice versa, and nearly take a knockdown shot away. Because the CG is low, they put the ball up in the air, making hitting a low ball pretty tough. Still you can chip with them, they are great out of a fairway bunker, easier to hit out of rough...and offer a lot of options that carrying something like a 2 or 3 iron simply don't give you. Personally it took me a long time to find hybrids I could hit well enough to feel comfortable with...maybe just an old dog who takes longer to learn a new trick.

 

Irons - The technology around improvement to irons is not nearly as quantum as it has been with the above. Probably most of the work has been done in the arena of "super game improvement" type clubs, and I personally agree with you that buying a set of clubs, whether they be woods or irons that are draw bias would not be my first choice. I would rather figure out how to get rid of the slice with a solid setup and swing rather than trying to mitigate it with a closed face golf club. Besides a brutally wicked slice is still going to go right. Still...there are people who simply want to get out on weekends and play golf without practicing a lot or going to lessons...and "correction" clubs offer that alternative (to some degree anyway), and rightly so. Not everyone has the patience or time to practice...hey...at least they are playing golf! Being intentionally vague, I look as irons as three types, players, game improvement, and super game improvement. Players irons really haven't had a lot of radical changes made...some minor moving of weight around and some work around forgiveness...i.e. the blades I play today are a lot easier to hit than the ones I played 10 years ago. There are more material options available and more shaft options available now than there have been in the past. Game improvement and super game improvement has had work done around perimeter weighting, different widths of the sole, etc etc. If you are going to practice and are REALLY intent on being a better player, I would look at something with a high forgiveness in the game improvement and side step the super game improvement. On the other hand if you have something else (which apparently you do) to focus on...something in the super category makes sense.

 

Wedges - Again...no quantum leaps forward here either other than grooves are...for the moment (the USGA is proposing a change) deeper, square, and offer more spin. Some wedges are easier to hit than others and then there are bounce configurations...etc to be considered.

 

Putters - Not even going here...putters are a very personal choice and some people swear by only one and I have seen others who seem to change every week. This is a matter of trial and error until you find the one you like the best and seem to perform the best.

 

Where the biggest changes have happened is club fitting. I think that in the last 5+ years just about every pro-line OEM has finally recognized like Ping did about 30 years ago, that "standard shaft length, loft and lie" simply doesn't work. To go into a store and simply buy an expensive set of clubs off the rack without fitting is pretty silly since nearly every decent golf retailer will do a fitting for you for nothing. The lie angle and shaft length of a club can make a pretty discernable difference in performance, especially if you are unusually tall or short. This is something that you have already recognized.

 

I do agree with you opting away from draw biased clubs in lieu of working towards a sound golf swing. Bravo. Having said that if you are looking for new irons I would advise simply getting to a retailer large enough to try some different ones out. In the game improvement category, Ping, Calloway, and Adams are pretty hard to beat, but that is strickly personal opinion. Some clubs, like Pings, seem to hold their value much better than others. I wish there was a magic answer and I probably have gone off on some tangents...but over all I agree with you. I would really rather see someone who is intent on becoming a better player do it via developing a sound swing rather than try and mitigate with equipment.

 

Best of luck to you.

[Corsair]

Most importantly, find a good teacher and take a series of lessons - you must be comfortable with their teaching style. Space the lessons out and between lessons practice /play focusing on the things he/she teaches you.

 

If you want new clubs have the teacher assess what type of clubs you need - Max GI, GI, etc. Then get properly fitted. 6' 5" golfers are definitely out of the "normal" range . . .and a proper fitting is a must. Finding a good fitter takes some doing, and you should check around with some good golfers and your teacher - don't just run down to your local Golfsmith, Golf Galaxy or E Watts - they may or may not have knowledgeable people fitting clubs - but I tend to think that most of the people working at these places are not very useful.

[thenewbie]

its going to be really tough to get to single digits without some serious practice and game development. personally, I hate those draw irons, and think the only place for them is in the bag of someone who has a slice and has no intention of trying to improve (which describes plenty of golfers. . .bot not you or I). I think game improvement (not draw-weighted ones) clubs can help your game without necisarily hindering improvement. as you improve your game, you can re-asses your equipment needs.

 

I always say you can't buy clubs for the player you WILL be, you have to buy clubs for the player you are right now.

 

draw weighted irons ARE a crutch that won't help you (draw bias woods are a bit different and are worth a look), but that's just because of the weighting. other max game improvement irons can get you on the right track.

[MisterMizzy]

Proper technique is the way to go. I'm equally capable of hitting bad/good shots with any type of club. While there are clubs that are built to assist with certain swing flaws, I think you'd have a hard time finding a club that will get you into single digits. The best advice I can give as far as equipment goes, is to find something that you feel 100% comfortable with. It doesn't matter if the clubs are huge cavity backs, or tiny blades, as long as you are comfortable with them. Once you have that piece of it down, I would recommend finding a quality instructor.

[justStarting]

Thank you all for your input. As someone that doesn't take the easy way out and would rather suffer a bit to test my skills, I am skipping the MAX GI and going for GI. I signed up for lessons with a local instructor. $300 for 8 one hour lessons.

 

After having looked at all the irons at my local Edwin Watts I had figured the new technology from my 9-year old irons were simply a slightly different size or some weighting. Saturday I found my bag as I was going to go to the range and see what was left of my swing before my first lesson on Monday. After seeing my irons for the first time in six months I thought they looked like antiques! I almost went out and bought a new set right then and there. I am going to take a couple lessons first to make sure my stance and basics are there so when I get fitted they are fitting me properly then I will be up to date.

 

My instructor is a "Mizuno Man" and the MX-25s are where I am leaning as a friend of mine has just picked up a set but where I will end up I don't know for sure but definitely GI as opposed to Max for the irons. My putter and wedges on the other hand I am looking for double triple MAXGI. What a mess that game is!

 

Thanks again.

[Gxgolfer]

It took me two years of lessons to get a fairly repeatable swing that I could understand when it goes wrong. Fitted equipment will only help "cover up" when you have a consistent bias. To get to an honest single digit, you are looking at hours of short game time. Strokes are saved from 125 and in.

 

Weekly/bi-weekly lessons and fitted equipment is not cheap and requires serious time devotion.

[joeb]

How about buying an old set of blades for like a hundred bucks and play/practice with them. If you dont like em get the game improvements on the bay and have them fitted. Some people like blades and some people dont.

[justStarting]

Problem is I am 6'5. Nothing fits.

 

I can come close to a 100 with no lessons, about a total of 2 dozen rounds under my belt in my entire life and 10 year old equipment. I figure my 8 lessons and clubs that fit should have me regularly breaking 100 by the end of the year. Wrong? Right?

[Sam-Tee-Time]

.................I definitely need maximum improvement but if one is looking to improve over the long run to a single digit handicap don't you have to learn to walk without a crutch? It seems to me if you want to play well you have to buy a decent set of clubs that aren't too difficult to hit but they shouldn't cover up your problems or you will never fix them.

 

Ok, time for everyone to chime in and advise me how to go about this and the theory behind how to move up in clubs and performance. Thanks in advance.

 

Here's my $.02 on this situation:

 

* Clubs - As a beginner or high index golfer, I feel it IS important to use game-improvement clubs for most of your play/practice. It helps you enjoy the game, and you'll find it easier to hit. However..........

 

* Playa Club - Many instructors and golfers feel that one should learn on a hard-to-hit, unforgiving, low-offset set of blades. I don't buy into this 100%, but.........I DO feel it would be helpful to buy a -6 or -7 SINGLE iron that is a "playa" club. (Mizuno MP-33, MP-37, MacGregor 1025M, Titleist 690MB blades, etc.) HIt it sometimes at the range. You'll see how your bad swings result in terrible ballflights. As your swing improves, you'll see better and better results. Some uber-game improvement clubs won't show this to you.

 

* GET FITTED. Irregardless of your level, get properly fitted to your equipment!!! "Nuff said there. Your statement of "Problem is I am 6'5. Nothing fits." is incorrect. A friend of mine is your height, and he has full custom-fitted set of PING driver, irons and putter. He's a superb player, with a gifted short game.

 

* GET LESSONS. It's foolish for a new golfer to go too far without lessons. Learn a proper swing and setup before you groove bad habits. YOu'll be very thankful in the long run.

 

Scratch/Single digit?? Check out this old thread - it has a ton of great advice on setup, strategy, mental game, and efforts it takes to get to scratch/single digits.

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=22272

 

I hope I helped somewhat. Best of luck on your golfing journey!

[justStarting]

Thank you all again for your additional responses. A couple comments and updates.

 

Someone had mentioned buying used clubs which my response was trying to find used a bit longer to accomodate my 6'5 height was the issue there, but a good idea. I have a set of irons 9 years old that had an inch and 2 degrees of lie added so I know I can get new clubs fitted.

 

Last night I went for my first lesson. Traditionally I have a slice that rears it's head about every third shot. My instructor changed my grip and stance/posture before I hit a single ball. The rest of the hour I hit balls and NOT A SINGLE SLICE! A couple pushes and a couple draws but not a single slice. It was his theory which I subscribe to and had in mind before meeting with him, that I learn on a set of clubs that I am going to play. My goal was to get the first lesson out of the way to learn how to stand and hold the club so I could be fitted properly.

 

Today I went into Edwin Watts, was measured by him (he works there also) and came up with 1", med stiff steel, no change in lie, and medium grips. My hands make the club disappear an larger grips, that I didn't know existed, seem to make a lot of sense. I skipped in the Max GI Irons and after reading some Golf (something golf in the name) 2007 reviews, reading this forum, and looking at the different options had narrowed it down to Callaway X20 or the Mizuno MX-25. My friend had gotten a set of the MX-25s and my instructor is a "Mizuno man" so I opted for the Mizuno 4-PW.

 

I am now researching a 3 iron/hybrid. I hit one for the first time with a graphite shaft today during the fitting and loved it! Cool club! Then on to a driver, putter, and wedge.

 

Did I miss anything? thanks again.