GOLF DIGEST - STACK & TILT PART TWO

[golfasaurus]

SEPTEMBER ISSUE

Just got my copy of Golf Digest September Issue with Stack & Tilt Part Two in it. Will be reading it. Thought I put it here for those who like the stack & tilt and want to know more. Just checked and it is not on the site yet.

[golfasaurus]

Here's what's in the magazine briefly:-

 

Part 1 - Stack & Tilt Basics

Part 2 - 3 Key Moves (Other Teachers Call These Faults)

Part 3 - Tips for Hitting the Driver

Part 4 - S&T The Critics Speak Out

 

Nice read. There was a small section from a critic about how one needs to be physically gifted. Of course there was also other comments by others (outside Golf Digest) about how it is physically stressful on the body. My take on this is that (like it or not), golf is an athelethic move.

[MBuckler]

give me part 3 please!!!

[Warszawa]

Part 3 would we great.

[dana dahlquist]

wow great.

the next part will be how the critics who say this stuff did the following.

1. How Don worked with Mac for many years and now works with Butch, how they watch Mac video tapes alot so they can learn how to teach. (kevin Na left)

2. How Leadbetter is trying to make Els pivot better through the ball and lower his arm plane.

3. I can't go on.....

[Ducky]

Any word on when it will be up on the website?

[Laz]

I wonder if they mention that that type of swing requires tons of bounce in the irons...

 

here are Badds irons

 

[tiltmaestro]

are you insuating that all the players that use this type of swing have a grind on their irons lke aron baddeley? if you perhaps you should do a little more research

[Laz]

No, i'm not "insuating" anything

 

There's a rule of thumb: Steeper swing-more bounce, shallow swing-less bounce.

And since it's a rule of thumb it does not apply to everyone.

[Asleep]

A better writeup of the S&T than was originally presented was necessary, that's for sure.

[golfasaurus]

Yes. Agree that it clears quite a few things up. Including issues like O'Grady and the Physical strains on the back.

I have been going in and out of the conventional swing and the stack & tilt over the past 2 months.

Each time I am having a practice session, I would ask friends and my golf instructor to look at both versions.

Each time, the result is the same. They tell me my impact is more solid and powerful on the stack & tilt.

 

Plus, I have a history of back injury. When I first tried the swing, my chiro feels that the S&T is better for my back.

The part 2 article also clear the air on this matter.

 

In any case, as with everything in life, it may not be for you.

 

At least for me, it makes golf more fun ;)

[golfmz]

I have been using S&T for one week and having diffculty hitting driver.

Please give me part 2 and 3.

 

thanks a lot.

[Calamity Todd]

I appreciate the fact that they provided more info.....I think it was driven by the overwhelming response the issue has gotten on forums like this. I still want a book....RwF

[Laz]

I still want a book....RwF

Word up! And DVDs!

[tiltmaestro]

so are you saying that stack and tilt creates a steep descent?? be careful!

[shortgame1]

Had a couple of questions for the guys who have converted to the S&T. is there anybody who uses both conventional and S&T ? the reason I ask is that I hit my driver and my 16 deg rescue very well of the tee right now. my iron swing is ok on my 3 -6 but when I use a lower one I am not keeping any lag in my swing. my shots are good at times but most of the time I am short and to the right from a chicken wing types impact position. been playing for a long time and never been hitting the irons so poor. have spent many hours at the range trying to keep my left arm straight at the top and keep my lag into impact but nothing has clicked. I am taking divot after the ball but must be adding loft . went for a lesson last week and found that my instructor has gone full blown S&T. looking at my normal swing I am really getting behind the ball with more than a 90 degree shoulder turn but my hips are rotating too much, straighting my right leg and my arms are collapsing at the top. instructor told me that he now teaches the S&T as his primary method. this came as a complete shock as he has always been teaching the weight shift , get behind the ball swing for a long time. well needless to say after my hr with him I was striking my irons with a nice more penetrating draw. went to the range the next day and hit the ball very well. nice crisp contact with a nice shallow divot. I do not want to mess with my driver and rescue club , so is anybody using both swings ? I always hear your iron and driver swing should be the same but my driver set up is not working with irons. seems like the S&T keeps my weight centered and hitting down and through. also heard some people are using a modified version of S&T , as in conventional swing but not getting their weight transferring as much to the right side. have to admit I used to hit my irons beautiful but am having a very hard time getting it back with my conventional swing.

[bobbyjones2k5]

Just got my GD issue today in the mail. I've been going back and forth between conventional swing and the S&T. Due to work and kids I rarely get to play these days nor practice much. I haven't hit balls in about 2 weeks or so. After briefly looking at the article today I went to the range with my 3 year old son. Not having practiced much I decided to go with some of the feels I got from looking at the article. Lets just say that I hit it SOLID. I only hit bad shots when I made my over the top move by using my shoulders to start the downswing. When I took a moment and went with the feel of using my hips to start the downswing and to flex my upper body I hit it great again. It's still early in the trial process but I'm going to stick with this and see how good I can ingrain the new feels. If you're on the bubble give it a shot.

[Albatros]

so are you saying that stack and tilt creates a steep descent?? be careful!

 

 

Well, isn't one of the tenents of this swing to keep your upper body over the ball instead of behind? Also it minimizes the weight shift, both upper and lower body. Both SHOULD create a more crisp(if not steep) impact.

 

Now, I agree that Badds' swing looks shallow, but that doesn't mean you can't have a steep impact.

 

BTW, I LOVE that grind on Badds' irons. Wish I could do that to my i506s!!!

[ocgolfpro]

Can anyone scan and publish the article of S&T Part 2 or email it to me ? [email protected]

 

Second tournament I played with S&T and shot 68 -4 and won the PGA approved professional tournament.

 

Cant wait to read on.

 

Olivier

[Goose]

I live in the Philadelphia area and Andy Plummer works out of Aronimink CC. One of my good friends works with Plummer and i can tell you its definately not for everyone but his swing is so pure!.... he's got so much power and strength through the ball... the only downside that i have seen is that it takes a while to get really good at hitting half and three quarter shot especial from short range like inside 100 yds. But it is very impressive, when my buddy hits the golf ball it just makes an entirely different noise when it takes off....you can actually hear it ripping through the air. He just hits the ball so flush.

 

Dan

[Laz]

so are you saying that stack and tilt creates a steep descent?? be careful!

 

 

Well, isn't one of the tenents of this swing to keep your upper body over the ball instead of behind? Also it minimizes the weight shift, both upper and lower body. Both SHOULD create a more crisp(if not steep) impact.

 

Now, I agree that Badds' swing looks shallow, but that doesn't mean you can't have a steep impact.

 

BTW, I LOVE that grind on Badds' irons. Wish I could do that to my i506s!!!

 

As Albatros said. It "favours" a steep impact but it does not create it. Tiltmaestro, i saw that you are very active in the stack and tilt topics, so i am sure you will elaborate on that...

 

And i agree: That grind is just radical! I wish i could try them out...

[Points]

First of all, rounding the front of the irons is pretty normal on tour. Lots of players have this type of grind on their irons. I would say that Badds is very far from being steep on the ball. If anything, the stack and tilt guys fight the club getting behind them a little on the downswing. At the end of the day, the stack and tilt is a method which places greater empahsis on the swing than the player. All the work with Badds still leaves him as one of the worst ball strikers on tour. Luckily he can putt with anyone.

[tiltmaestro]

one of the worst ball strikers on the tour? your not watching enough golf and just reading the statistics. there are so many variables on those stats one cant be making much out of them unless they look very closely. in the baddeley case first he is way, way, longer than 80th or so...2nd he hits more fairways than more than all but one of the top ten players in the world, . more importantly though, the tournaments a player plays in has more to do with the stats than anything. the stats from the tournament at reno this week show 25 guys hit 80 percent of the fairways, while no one hit 80% at firestone. one needs to index the stats to make any valid comaprison. i am not saying baddeley is the best ball striker, he is much improved and far, far, far from the worst.

[hattrick3518]

loving the swing, finally getting the driver down, its been a journey (all summer) but its finally all coming together, i couldnt be happier

[Points]

I know there are so many variables which go into stats. Over Badds career on Tour, he has remained one of worst ten players in GIR. He is consistent...similar to Singh and Woods staying in the top ten. Last time I checked, those players play a fairly difficult schedule.

[darnoldil]

Let us qualify what we mean by ball striking. If you mean GIR than Bad's isn't up there. If you define ball striking as consistent, solid impact with any club from just about any lie then Bad's is up there and nowhere near the worst. If you want to define ball striking as the ability to consistently make the ball follow the 8 or so flight paths on command and have the ball FINISH, EXACTLY where you want it, then you CAN"T know UNLESS you ask the player themselves!!!!

 

Therefore, Points, based upon your writing you determine ball striking by GIR, if you don't then you haven't posted what other variables to your definition you have. GIR, like fairways hit counts only if your ball STAYS on the initial green just as fairway percentage is calculated by your ball STAYING in the fairway. If you ball lands on an elevated or multi-tiered green and rolls backwards off of the green you missed a GIR. If your ball lands on a green, hops twice and hits a spike mark left from the previous group and shoots off to the side into the fringe, you missed a GIR. Did you hit a good shot? Of course, did the ball stay on the green for various reasons? In those examples and many more the answer is no. Does your GIR percentage suffer? Yes. Does this mean that you are not a good ball striker? NO! Yes you can say that other players find ways to keep their balls on the green, Cabrerra found a way to get a ProV1X of all balls to BACKSPIN at the Open! But does that mean that he was a better ball striker during the tournament? If you say yes then I think you violate your definition because I don't think he was number one in GIR.

 

So when we really get down to it GIR isn't very descriptive in determining ball striking, just like handicap is a poor descriptor for ball striking because it is based upon an ASSUMPTION. The assumption is that in order to score low you MUST be a good BALL STRIKER, but I've personally WITNESSED people who where NOT what I would call a good ball striker score low. Why? Because their short game was near PGA levels.

 

So define what it means to be a good ball striker and maybe we can make more objective deductions regarding Bad's ability and performance. From what I have witnessed of Bad's his ball striking is VERY GOOD indeed! And so are the majority of the other 19+ guys on the PGA who are using the S&T.

[Points]

First, I think the majority of players on the PGA Tour are able to make "consistent, solid impact with any club from just about any lie." As far as demonstrating the 9 ball flights, I would also venture to say that the majority of PGA Tour players are able to demonstrate these skills while certain players maybe weak with shots based on their preferred ball flight.

At one point, ball striking included both driving and iron play but as we all know most of the great players on tour are fairly weak when it comes to hitting the fairway consistently. I would say that if you looked at the collective history of the GIR stats you would fine a large number of players considered to be "great ball strikers" to be located toward the top of this category. So I guess we are left with looking at the GIR percentage as some measure of good vs bad ball striking when it relates to the best players in the game. If you polled the guys on tour, I don't beleive anyone would say that they would love to hit the ball like Faxon or Hamilton. Over the last several seasons, Badds has been ranked the same as these two players. On average, he hits a little less than 60% of the greens.

Maybe we should use proximity from the pin to better define ball striking. If this the case, Badds ranks 174 and is again ranked toward the bottom. At the end of the day, hitting the ball well is a small component of being a good player on tour. If Badds has a descent week striking the ball, he is such a great putter that he has a chance at winning.

[charlieh]

i've been trying out stack and tilt for about a month now and playing not far off my handicap 8 with little practice. unfortunately i live in the UK and don't have access to the new stack & tilt part two article.... ahhh! as am having problems with the driver (as everyone else does it seems) and could do with the new article. is there anywhere on the web to see the article or any other way of getting it - they don't sell Golf Digest in the UK unfortunately.

 

stack & tilt is the way forward.

[Putt4doh]

As a faithful Jim Hardy One Plane Swing follower, the Plummer and Bennet helped clarifiy a bit about the lower body that Hardy doesn't address....

 

I had always struggled with the 'turning' around an axis in the OPS. The part that was missing (for me) was the lower body action. S&T helped address that for me perfectly. When I start to struggle its almost always b/c I 'forget' where my weight should be in my backswing.

 

I'm not sure if that makes me a Hardy Guy or a S&T guy....but I know the 2 of them together have me striking the ball more solidly than ever.

 

 

 

As far as the article in DG is concerned.....I have some fundamental problems with DG on this one.

 

 

Why doesn't' Ledbetter or Pelz or Haney or Smith (you get the idea) have to publicly answer to peer criticism?

 

I don't understand what's so revolutionary about all of this? Take a close look at any 'great' golf swings: hardly any of them have a pronounced weight shift to the right side (assuming a RH golfer).

 

Although P&B say their positions are not exaggerated, I don't believe I've seen any of their students with a spine pointing at the target, etc. I can't help believe that they emphasize what it should 'feel' like, but that doesn't necessarily translate to actual positions (I know the article says otherwise).

 

There's an implication that in order to be a S&T guy you have to be young, strong, and capable....but anyone can learn from me (McLean, Harmon, etc). Isn't this more than a bit self serving?

 

On a more positive note, I do agree with Butch..."I don't believe there's one set of fundamentals for everyone..."

[Medici999]

if anypne would be so kind would it be possible to forward me copys of the original stack and tilt in golf digest earlier on and then the one published in todays issue please as im thinking of giving it a try.

 

my email is [email protected]

 

thanks