I never want to hear the word conventional again.

[djbehr]

This debate seems like it should be over. It's been said well. The S&T'ers that DO improve probably improve because this eliminated or greatly reduced a significant flaw in their swing. A pro or single digit HC'er will probably NOT improve right away (or maybe ever when they make a huge swing change) because they don't have any big flaws in their swing.

 

And yes, for me to get this swing truly grooved will take me many many balls. But by that definition, it will be the FIRST swing I've ever had grooved. (Is a middle handicapper really repeating his swing very well at all anyway?) But you have to remember a 15 handicapper might play 4 times a month - how truly grooved is ANYTHING in that game?

[tiltmaestro]

LARRY. MUSCLES CANNOT AND DO NOT HAVE THE CAPICITY TO REMEMBER ANYTHING........ITS THE BRAIN. MUSCLE MEMORY IS CODING THE BRAIN. HENCE THIS WHOLE DISCUSSION

[leekgolf]

I have spent a lot of time in the various S&T threads here and elsewhere, and the one constant in all is the aggressive counter-punching of all the "non-believers" in the S&T methodology. Presumably, the large majority of posters on WRX (ex-obvious trolls) were originally drawn to this by their love for the game of golf, regardless of however loosely or strictly that love was defined. As we all know, there is a constant pull to improve, analyze, and update our approach towards the game, a process that definitely adds to its allure. If the above thoughts are accepted at face value (a presumptive claim to be sure), then it would be helpful if someone could please explain the open hostility towards posters who are relaying their success with this methodology? Are the non S&Ters so dogmatic that they can't accept an approach that differs from their own? Are they that riled that S&T has similarities to other swings that lack of credit attribution to the pioneers gets them crazed? If standing on one leg with my arms crossed (the DoubleX Peg Leg Swing!!!!) allowed me to hit the ball better (or let me think I hit it better) than who gives a flying leap? I really don't get it.

 

What I call the S&T has improved MY game dramatically. Isn't that all that matters?

 

Stack and Tilt is a great method for certain types of golfers. Some are people who move way too much laterally. Others are those who are WAY under plane and thus dramatically inside out.

 

My issue is the evangelicals who believe the garbage in Golf Digest, the bogus pics that accompanied that garbage, and that it is a magical swing method for everyone. Add in the people who believe that one can decide to read a BAD article and voila! They Stack and Tilt! Add to that that average people can totally overhaul their swing and apply new concepts overnight.

 

Go look at tournament pictures of TOUR players like Badds. His swing is very orthodox. He has great axis tilt and a terrific pivot. All orthodox stuff. He may feel he is leaning left, but the REAL pics at his best, this year's US Open show something different. He is behind the ball at impact every single time.

 

This is just the anti- Jimmy Ballard. Ballard came along when players were stuck in the mud with little or no weight shift and movement. He taught a sway. Did his champions sway? Hell no! They just felt like they did. Jimmy just freed up their swings to allow for weight shift and a little dynamic movement.

 

If I had the swing flaws Stack and Tilt could help, I would might go to a qualified instructor in that area. In fact, I can guarantee you, my current instructor Brian Manzella, who knows those guys pretty well, would incorporate some of their ideas into my lessons. In fact, Brian has a similar pattern he teaches called Never Hook Again. He taught me that in the past, when I was over tilted.

[Calamity Todd]

Put me in the camp that says muscles don't have memory...they have no capacity to do so. I think the practice and hitting 1000's of balls is for the mental side of the game and not physical. Assuming the physical ability to make the body move in a certain way....the game is 100% mental.

[leekgolf]

easy boys. making the changes are easy. controlling them to the level of a major champion is a different matter. there are clearly different latitudes. a 30 handicaper who does one peice slightly better will notice a difference, if its right peice. what if they learn several peices and some clarity, then they could make signicant improvement(even on there own). often times a tour player make take hundreds balls measuring the standard deviation clearly to be able to reproduce a higher quality shot time after time. the high handicapper who hits one out of two better is making a significant difference. surely then, you understand that a high handicapper can easily incorporate a few peices into their swing and get better. what is amusing, or maybe its depressing, is people under the assumption they they have to practice all day and get worse before they get better. add to that, the bogus assumption, that ,to change there swing takes months and have constant supervision . ............no wonder peolpe are leaving golf.........

 

 

Frankly, a 30 handicapper hasn't mastered anything in golf, except the ability to score over 100 consistently. Change to me is permanent. Something one can play with and execute the vast majority of the time without thinking about it at all.

 

If you play thinking about how to swing the club, you aren't playing golf, you are playing golf swing.

[leekgolf]

Put me in the camp that says muscles don't have memory...they have no capacity to do so. I think the practice and hitting 1000's of balls is for the mental side of the game and not physical. Assuming the physical ability to make the body move in a certain way....the game is 100% mental.

 

It takes a while for the brain to subconciously execute movements. The repetition involved in practice allows the brain to adopt that movement without concious thinking.