I never want to hear the word conventional again.

[CRutherford]

S&T

As a long overdue bit of info, I first say I never post in this section, because I believe that what works in a swing, works. That being said, here goes.

With my addiction to Golfwrx, and all of the topics on Stack and Tilt, something sounded interesting. I've been on a rough stretch however, as I haven't picked up a club in 2 weeks. I play well, but everything felt a little off, just due to the break. I was interested in S&T however, and so I tried it.

Instantly, the basics of Stack and Tilt worked. Really, I had already had some of S&T things in my swing, but applied with normal basics. Now, using the S&T convention defying postions, the swing even feels better.

As far as the need for being physically gifted, I will give some background. I'm young, <20, and workout 3-5 times a week with weights and stretching. I've always been athletic, but regardless, Stack and Tilt has something to it.

Thoughts?

[titleistnutter]

dont see why not in your case...how did you find you hit driver now

[CRutherford]

Well, it was a little tough adjusting to a forward press with the driver, but really its still a baby draw, only a little higher now.

[slicefixer]

S & T IS conventional it's just the WAY P&B (GD article wasn't very good IMOP) teach it that's a bit unconventional when compared to common methods........Leadbetter/harmon/McClean........O'Grady teaches a VERY similar golf swing.......as do many others........LOTS of good teachers understand the need to limit lateral motion and ELIMINATE "unnecessary" lateral motion....:lol:

[larrybud]

I find it amusing how so many people here think that they've completely changed their swing after hitting 100 balls at the driving range, when it takes the best players in the world a couple of years to revampe their swing. "yeah, this works, this doesn't" blah blah blah. And I'd bet $100 that they're not even doing that they think they're doing!

[Diesel]

agreed... a swing change does not come in a bucket...

[tiltmaestro]

no it does not come in a bucket....it comes in one ball. the moment when a persons intentions change

[xiaoxiong]

I find it amusing how so many people here think that they've completely changed their swing after hitting 100 balls at the driving range, when it takes the best players in the world a couple of years to revampe their swing. "yeah, this works, this doesn't" blah blah blah. And I'd bet $100 that they're not even doing that they think they're doing!

 

 

Could not agree more.

 

I actually took a couple lessons from one pro who learned from P&B and who I do have confidence this season. Long story short, I thought I was doing S&T and the pro also commented that my swing was fine. Last couple of months my short-to-mid irons were relatively consistent and my driver was ok as well, but I had trouble with my long irons. With that swing, I had been scoring low-to-mid 80s, though struggling with breaking 80s. Also I believe that I did not achieve my distance potential with my irons.

 

Finally I decided to bite the bullet and took a Brian Manzella 2 day golf school at Long Island. The 1st video session came as some close to earth shattering: I was in severe reverse pivot with my backswing!! Not stack and tilt at all! No wonder my distance is not there, even though I am very athletic and flexible. The more I learned about TGM, the more I think the basic physics/geometry principle never change in a golf swing.

 

For those people talking about S&T positively affect their swings, I think they may just swing too much right with their old swing. For people like me who never swing to the right and who always very center with setup and back swing, we need the opposite of S&T.

 

cheers,

Jay

PS: I always wonder how people can improve that much instantly with one little change, you may hit good one day, I bet you will lose it by the other day. For mortals like us, it is day by day or week by week experience.

[larrybud]

no it does not come in a bucket....it comes in one ball. the moment when a persons intentions change

 

If my golf swing mirrored my intentions, *I* would be the winner of yesterday's PGA championship.

[tiltmaestro]

LARRY THAT WOULD BE NICE,,,,MAYBE WITH SOME PRACTICE TO IMPROVE THE REACTION TIME. BUT YOU CAN CHANGE YOUR SWING IN ONE BALL NONE THE LESS. DOENST MAKE YOU A CHAMPION JUST DIFFERENT THAN BEFORE. PEOPLE USE THE, "IT TAKES TIME TO MAKE SWING CHANGES" TOO OFTEN AS A CRUTCH, CHANGE THE RIGHT PEICES IN THE RIGHT ORDER AND POSITIVE RESULTS ARE ASSURRED!!! SOME PEOPLE ON HERE ARE ACTING LIKE A PERSON REPORTING BETTER GOLF IS JUST IMAGINING IT OR SOMETHING. MAYBE NOT A PGA CHAMPION BUT BRAKING 100, 90, 80 OR EVEN PAR,...THOSE RESULTS ARE NOT IMAGINED. THE BALL FLIES DIFFERENT WHEN IT IS HIT DIFFERENTLY!

[The Big Pinch]

LARRY THAT WOULD BE NICE,,,,MAYBE WITH SOME PRACTICE TO IMPROVE THE REACTION TIME. BUT YOU CAN CHANGE YOUR SWING IN ONE BALL NONE THE LESS. DOENST MAKE YOU A CHAMPION JUST DIFFERENT THAN BEFORE. PEOPLE USE THE, "IT TAKES TIME TO MAKE SWING CHANGES" TOO OFTEN AS A CRUTCH, CHANGE THE RIGHT PEICES IN THE RIGHT ORDER AND POSITIVE RESULTS ARE ASSURRED!!! SOME PEOPLE ON HERE ARE ACTING LIKE A PERSON REPORTING BETTER GOLF IS JUST IMAGINING IT OR SOMETHING. MAYBE NOT A PGA CHAMPION BUT BRAKING 100, 90, 80 OR EVEN PAR,...THOSE RESULTS ARE NOT IMAGINED. THE BALL FLIES DIFFERENT WHEN IT IS HIT DIFFERENTLY!

 

Well said!

[CRutherford]

Ok before anyone goes any further, lets clear some stuff up. I never made any claim that "I've played better than ever" or whatever. I was already a good player, and if you will look in my original post, I said that I already had some of the basics to S&T in my original swing. Every swing is different, and mine is as individual as any. All I did was incorporate the other parts of S&T into my swing to see how it felt, which turned out good. I've hit many many more than 100 balls to come to the conclusion I have. That being that I'm hitting the ball well, and have worked alot at it. I have swing analyzing software, and you can bet I've been using it.

[ezra76]

Ok before anyone goes any further, lets clear some stuff up. I never made any claim that "I've played better than ever" or whatever. I was already a good player, and if you will look in my original post, I said that I already had some of the basics to S&T in my original swing. Every swing is different, and mine is as individual as any. All I did was incorporate the other parts of S&T into my swing to see how it felt, which turned out good. I've hit many many more than 100 balls to come to the conclusion I have. That being that I'm hitting the ball well, and have worked alot at it. I have swing analyzing software, and you can bet I've been using it.

 

Good for you. IMO finding a fundamental "blueprint" that works is the 1st step. Mine is Hogan's 5 lessons. I play 2-3 times a week and hit 500-1000 balls per week. It takes work, a lot of work to change over even 1 tiny thing. Seeing that glimpse is worth every second, every blister, every stiff back and or neck. I hit 8 of 9 greens on the front last week at a tough course off the tips. I've had the "glimpse" for a few holes or shots but this was my longest stretch. I saw for that moment, my potential to be a scratch golfer and it was awesome.

 

Keep working at it if it's working. :lol:

[djbehr]

LARRY THAT WOULD BE NICE,,,,MAYBE WITH SOME PRACTICE TO IMPROVE THE REACTION TIME. BUT YOU CAN CHANGE YOUR SWING IN ONE BALL NONE THE LESS. DOENST MAKE YOU A CHAMPION JUST DIFFERENT THAN BEFORE. PEOPLE USE THE, "IT TAKES TIME TO MAKE SWING CHANGES" TOO OFTEN AS A CRUTCH, CHANGE THE RIGHT PEICES IN THE RIGHT ORDER AND POSITIVE RESULTS ARE ASSURRED!!! SOME PEOPLE ON HERE ARE ACTING LIKE A PERSON REPORTING BETTER GOLF IS JUST IMAGINING IT OR SOMETHING. MAYBE NOT A PGA CHAMPION BUT BRAKING 100, 90, 80 OR EVEN PAR,...THOSE RESULTS ARE NOT IMAGINED. THE BALL FLIES DIFFERENT WHEN IT IS HIT DIFFERENTLY!

 

Well said, though I could do without the caps. :lol: I am one of those people: I've played only 3 rounds and hit about 200 balls otherwise with S&T. I AM reporting better golf since I switched. Pretty funny: people are getting rid of their 3 irons and getting hybrids... I JUST got a set of blades and hit at least 3 irons on the course Saturday. Blades are supposed to be a bit harder to hit consistently, right? I hit all of those 3 irons about 210 to 215 yards - my worst shot was about 15 yards left of my target. 3 iron blade? Not afraid with this swing. It has made a huge difference for me. I've never hit more than one good 3 iron in a round before. Since I switched swings I LOVE those long par 3's!

 

As I've said in other posts - maybe the difference is simply in drastically reducing lateral motion. Fine with me. It's making a huge difference in my iron game.

[leekgolf]

no it does not come in a bucket....it comes in one ball. the moment when a persons intentions change

 

 

Interesting idea. Funny, Jim Furyk has been working for two years to bring the top of his swing down 1 1/2". Tiger revamped his clubface at the top in 18 months of working with Butch Harmon, but you can change yours with intent and one ball. Impressive!

[tiltmaestro]

yes i can and so can you if you know what your doing

[leekgolf]

yes i can and so can you if you know what your doing

 

Then you must be more talented than Furyk and Tiger or full of .....

[larrybud]

LARRY THAT WOULD BE NICE,,,,MAYBE WITH SOME PRACTICE TO IMPROVE THE REACTION TIME. BUT YOU CAN CHANGE YOUR SWING IN ONE BALL NONE THE LESS. DOENST MAKE YOU A CHAMPION JUST DIFFERENT THAN BEFORE. PEOPLE USE THE, "IT TAKES TIME TO MAKE SWING CHANGES" TOO OFTEN AS A CRUTCH, CHANGE THE RIGHT PEICES IN THE RIGHT ORDER AND POSITIVE RESULTS ARE ASSURRED!!! SOME PEOPLE ON HERE ARE ACTING LIKE A PERSON REPORTING BETTER GOLF IS JUST IMAGINING IT OR SOMETHING. MAYBE NOT A PGA CHAMPION BUT BRAKING 100, 90, 80 OR EVEN PAR,...THOSE RESULTS ARE NOT IMAGINED. THE BALL FLIES DIFFERENT WHEN IT IS HIT DIFFERENTLY!

 

So why did it take Tiger 2 years to change his swing? Why would anyone ever need to practice anymore than hitting ONE ball? Hell, you wouldn't even need to go to the range, just set up on the first tee and swing with your new swing. Who needs practice?!?!?! I mean, if all it takes in the right "intentions".

 

The fact that you AREN'T a PGA champion proves that it takes more than "one ball", otherwise your "intention" of hitting a perfect shot would materialize instantly.

 

But hey, believe what you want. Believe that you've completely changed your swing from one method to another instantly, when it takes world class pros, the best players our of the 5 billion people on the planet, a year or more hitting balls every day alongside the best teachers.

 

Amusing, it is.

[titleistnutter]

thats what annoys me about all these s&t converts - they think they straighten their back leg and lean towards the target an OH MY. doesnt work like that, and people need to realise there is more to s&t than is made out

[cyrick]

It's a lot easier for someone who plays once a week to change their swing than it is for someone who has been playing every day for 25 years. That being said, it is also an incredibly misleading statement to say that it took Tiger 2 years to change his swing. It probably changed 100 times in that period. The average golfer is nowhere near as consistent as a professional.

[bzod]

I have spent a lot of time in the various S&T threads here and elsewhere, and the one constant in all is the aggressive counter-punching of all the "non-believers" in the S&T methodology. Presumably, the large majority of posters on WRX (ex-obvious trolls) were originally drawn to this by their love for the game of golf, regardless of however loosely or strictly that love was defined. As we all know, there is a constant pull to improve, analyze, and update our approach towards the game, a process that definitely adds to its allure. If the above thoughts are accepted at face value (a presumptive claim to be sure), then it would be helpful if someone could please explain the open hostility towards posters who are relaying their success with this methodology? Are the non S&Ters so dogmatic that they can't accept an approach that differs from their own? Are they that riled that S&T has similarities to other swings that lack of credit attribution to the pioneers gets them crazed? If standing on one leg with my arms crossed (the DoubleX Peg Leg Swing!!!!) allowed me to hit the ball better (or let me think I hit it better) than who gives a flying leap? I really don't get it.

 

What I call the S&T has improved MY game dramatically. Isn't that all that matters?

[tiltmaestro]

easy boys. making the changes are easy. controlling them to the level of a major champion is a different matter. there are clearly different latitudes. a 30 handicaper who does one peice slightly better will notice a difference, if its right peice. what if they learn several peices and some clarity, then they could make signicant improvement(even on there own). often times a tour player make take hundreds balls measuring the standard deviation clearly to be able to reproduce a higher quality shot time after time. the high handicapper who hits one out of two better is making a significant difference. surely then, you understand that a high handicapper can easily incorporate a few peices into their swing and get better. what is amusing, or maybe its depressing, is people under the assumption they they have to practice all day and get worse before they get better. add to that, the bogus assumption, that ,to change there swing takes months and have constant supervision . ............no wonder peolpe are leaving golf.........

[larrybud]

I have spent a lot of time in the various S&T threads here and elsewhere, and the one constant in all is the aggressive counter-punching of all the "non-believers" in the S&T methodology. Presumably, the large majority of posters on WRX (ex-obvious trolls) were originally drawn to this by their love for the game of golf, regardless of however loosely or strictly that love was defined.

 

I'm making no judgement about the S&T. I'm applying my comment to ANYBODY making ANY swing change who thinks that they've instituted not just a minor, but a completely major overhaul in one bucket, or even more rich, in one ball!

[tiltmaestro]

yes it is.....and adding a higher degree of expertise as you go along is the spirt of the game.

[larrybud]

what is amusing, or maybe its depressing, is people under the assumption they they have to practice all day and get worse before they get better. add to that, the bogus assumption, that ,to change there swing takes months and have constant supervision . ............no wonder peolpe are leaving golf.........

 

Then just explain the simple contradiction that the best players in the world can't change their swing in one bucket, yet you can?

[bzod]

larrybud,

Do you think it is easier for someone who shoots 65 or 95 to find an improvement that will allow them to get 10% better in a short time period? Think hard and get back...

[tiltmaestro]

yes larry. any player can change their swing in one swing. tour players are more highly adapted. they hit a higher level of shot, and they hit it more often than a 30 handicapper. i know im stating the obvious but clarifing these distinctions will help.

now, the more highly adapted tour player, to be able to hit a better shots than their standard MAY take a fair amount of practice to be able to reproduce the changed variable as well as thier previous stroke pattern.

whereas, the less adapted high handicapper can notice a signifcant difference than their standard when they change the peices in their stroke. for you to suggest changing the swing takes endless hours is not correct. PERFECTING it would take endless hours

 

. technically larry all the swings are different. if they were the same the ball would go the exact same place every time(excluding wind etc). you confuse the fact the tour players are often trying to incorporate peices into their highly repetitive swings with high handicapers who have more to change and can notice a substantal difference quickly

[djbehr]

Jeez... It's clear that nothing that I nor anyone else is going to say will end this silly debate about new swings or S&T or whatever... having said that.

 

Larry - tilt said it pretty well already, but I'll add my two cents. First of all they CAN change their swing in one bucket; it seems the issue here is what YOU mean by 'change their swing'. What the anti-S&T'ers are obviously leaving out of their argument about the pros is "... and play at the same level". That's what took Tiger a year - getting back to the same level. He had a changed swing right away but it took longer to groove it well enough to win again. We amateurs have never had ANYTHING grooved as well as pros have their swings grooved. Or, maybe it's grooved a lot faster than you think but consider that to have confidence in a new swing under the pressure that they play in is another factor in why it takes pros longer.

 

If you check out Geff Shackelford's blog you'll see that S&T really has helped a huge majority of people that have tried it. Maybe a 15 HC'er is a 15 HC'er because he has too much lateral motion. Consider that most amateurs have trouble being consistent with the rearward weight transfer in the 'modern swing', or whatever it's called now. And when they eliminate or greatly reduce any lateral motion there is a HUGE difference in the quality of contact.

 

I quit the game for 16 years. I've been playing about 3 months again. Explain to me how I shoot my best score by five strokes (80) on the second day that I used this swing. My iron misses had already been pretty much reduced to only fat shots before S&t, and this swing has pretty much elimated them for me (that is, my significant misses). Perhaps it's just because I'm staying centered over the ball. Maybe it really is that simple.

[larrybud]

larrybud,

Do you think it is easier for someone who shoots 65 or 95 to find an improvement that will allow them to get 10% better in a short time period? Think hard and get back...

 

The question's a strawman, as it doesn't have anything to do with my main point: that one cannot do a major swing change in one bucket.

 

Who's saying anything about a 10% improvement? All I'm hearing is how one range session was all that was needed dramatically get better, that hitting 100 balls eliminated years of muscle memory of one type of swing, and replace it with another type of swing. That "intent" and one ball is all that is needed. It's nonsense. It's nonsense because with that theory, one could take an absolute beginner and have them hitting crisp shots in an hour and shooting par.

 

That's why, no matter what swing theory you subscribe, we have drills. Drills to ingrain a "feeling" or a "move" into the muscle memory. Or training aids which help the joints and muscles accomplish a certain angle or position. The ball doesn't know how the clubhead got to the impact position. It only knows the speed, face angle, and path of the clubhead.\

 

Like I said, I'm not making any judgement about S&T or any other theory. I just find it amusing that someone thinks they can go to the range, hit one bucket, and they've found the "secret" to the golf swing.

[larrybud]

whereas, the less adapted high handicapper can notice a signifcant difference than their standard when they change the peices in their stroke. for you to suggest changing the swing takes endless hours is not correct. PERFECTING it would take endless hours

 

I can teach someone to play chopsticks on the piano in about 10 minutes. Does it mean they can play the piano? It's no different than a golf swing, because it's all muscle movement/muscle memory.

 

So let's put an objective measure on your comments. I'm not talking about perfection, because there's no such thing from humans.

 

How many balls/buckets/days/months/or years do you think it takes to get someone to break 80 50% of the time on a 72.0/130 rated course?