Struggling with the over the top move!!!!

[mpk200]

8 months with the dreaded over the top

Anybody willing to help a once very confident 6 handicapper and now it 8 months upto nearly 9.

I've always struggled with the over the top move but it usually only lasts for a couple of months with lots of practise it goes.When i have a bad swing i could hit a high shank which i now seem to be only doing that a couple of times a week{it was a couple of times a hole !!!!)

I seem to have just a few okay shots with the odd pull or gay fade and a few flushed down the middle.

I have 2 videos one with th driver and one front on with a seven iron.I did have a seven iron side on but its too big for you tube so need to cut it once i've done that i will add it to the list.

Thanks again

Mike

[crew_138]

Well I can tell right away from that driver video, that your set up is off your feet are aligned right of your target. This is no doubt a compensation of the past over the tops(I used to do the same), this is also why you think you have a pull, because your pulling across the your setup line to the correct line.

 

If I were you, and I was, I would work on a preshot routine, to include finding a intermediate target and setting up to this. The target closer to you will help your alignment immensely and might fix a couple of things (balance).

 

Good luck!

[rosskoss]

You have a great swing minus the OTT move which I think is fixed easily enough.

 

Swing key in one sentence - On the downswing, focus on holding your right shoulder back and your head up. Basically, relax your right shoulder coming down.

 

Right now, your right shoulder is jumping ahead in an attempt to swing harder and generate power. That's something you see in amateurs a lot (a lot more exaggerrated though) and is counterproductive in terms of swing speed and also destroys the swing plane.

 

Instead, at the top of the backswing, focus on relaxing your right shoulder and letting gravity do the initial drop back down. Being a good player, your weight will shift properly and your hips will unwind sufficiently but holding your shoulder back gives you that extra fraction of a second to swing properly from the inside.

[ChrisM84]

^ Yep.

 

Your right shoulder is moving "out" with not enough moving "down".

[DaveyH]

pull the club back like a putter on the takeaway making sure you dont come too inside on the backswing!

Normally the most common ott move or lifting the club on the start of the backswing.

[themouth1]

When a good golfer goes bad, it is almost always a set up issue. I think the above posters are right on but, I would add that it looks like you are leaning over your toes at address. Try to stand taller and get you weight better distributed. Balance has a lot to do with you problem and this will help.

[mpk200]

Thanks Guys

 

Will try to get taller on some of the other video footage my hands do look very low.The right shoulder is a new one for me but does sound right.It will be good to have my mind think of this instead of tring to force my hands on the inside.

 

Thanks again all for your time and help.

 

Mike

[JeffMann]

I think that your problem is a horizontal shoulder rotation starting the downswing. I think that the given advice - holding the right shoulder back at the start of the downswing - is wrong advice. It doesn't prevent a horizontal shoulder turn - it only delays it. What you need to do is ACTIVELY drive the right shoulder down the RSP line as shown in this image of Sergio Garcia.

 

 

Note the steepnesss of his downswing shoulder turn angle down the RSP line (yellow line). That is what you need to accomplish in your downswing.

 

Look at this swing video of Tiger Woods, and note the steepness of his shoulder turn angle in the downswing.

 

 

Tiger Woods' downswing shoulder turn angle.

 

Jeff.

[rosskoss]

Typically, if you maintain your spine angle, as you clear your hips, your shoulders will start down the correct plane.

 

It's the OTT movement that makes the shoulders move horizontally because you're trying to apply force and accelerate from the top.

 

But you don't need to take my word for it. The OP can try out my suggestion (and others) and see for himself if it works. I have a strong feeling that it will.

[JeffMann]

Here is a series of capture images of your downswing action - compared to Sergio Garcia.

 

 

You are in an excellent position as you start the downswing (image 1), and you correctly start the downswing with a hip squaring action. Note how nicely your clubshaft shallows out and the clubshaft cuts through the lower biceps, which indicates that you are on a perfect plane (image 2). However, note what happens by image 3 - your right elbow is no longer hugging your right side and it is floating away from the body. Contrast that situation with Sergio Garcia in image 4 - note how his right elbow is close to his right hip area. What gets the right elbow down to the right hip area at the start of the downswing? It occurs if you start the downswing with two "correct" motions - i) a hip squaring action and ii) an active drive of the right shoulder down the RSP line. If you have a distinct side-bending feeling during the hip squaring action - as if you are trying to drive your right shoulder into your right front trouser pocket - then your right elbow will be driven into close proximity to the right hip in the early downswing, and it will not float away from the body.

 

I discuss this issue in great detail in my downswing chapter - Downswing chapter

 

Here is a posed image of Ben Hogan demonstrating the initiating downswing action - note how his right shoulder drops down sideways towards his right hip when he squares his hips.

 

 

Jeff.

[mpk200]

Thanks your help is really appreciated.

 

I now have the seven iron down the line uploaded

 

 

Thanks again

Mike

 

Will let you all know how the practice range goes.

[Hifade]

www.pathprogolf.com

 

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=6802

 

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?sh...amp;hl=Path+Pro

[JeffMann]

Mike - This is your seven iron swing analysis.

 

This swing is much worse than your previous swing. In your previous swing, you at least started with your hips even though you moved your shoulders too horizontally. In this swing, you have an upper body rotation with NO initial hip shift-rotation move.

 

 

Image 1 - you have a good end-backswing position.

 

Image 2 - you start the downswing with a shoulder rotation instead of a hip shift-rotation. You are therefore simply throwing the club over your right shoulder and right upper arm - note how the clubshaft bisects the upper arm (instead of the lower half of the upper right arm - like your previous swing when you shallowed the clubshaft due to an initiating hip shift-rotation move).

 

Image 3 - note that the clubhead is already outside your hands (red ring) because of your OTT move. The clubhead should be behind the hands at this point in the downswing (see Ernie Els photo below).

 

 

Note that Ernie Els' clubhead is BEHIND his hands, while the anonymous golfer's clubhead descends from above the hands due to an OTT move (like your OTT move).

 

Image 4 - note that both your shoulders and hips are square to the target. Note how little your hips have moved from image 1 to image 4. Your shoulders have outraced your hips by a wide margin - because you have only moved your upper torso. You have an "upper body dive" swing, which I described in great detail in my downswing chapter - Downswing chapter

 

Look again at this comparison photo between you and Sergio Garcia.

 

 

Note that when your hands are at waist level (image 3), that your shoulders are already square and have caught up to the hips - while Sergio has open hips and slightly closed shoulders. Note that Ernie Els also has open hips and slightly closed shoulders in his photo.

 

The following diagram shows how the hips should lead the shoulders in the downswing, and although the shoulders start to catch up to the

hips by the mid-downswing (second image), the hips are stll ahead of the shoulders - like Sergio's mid-downswing position.

 

 

 

You need to get your hips to lead your shoulders like this diagram (and like Sergio Garcia's swing).

 

This swing video of Ben Hogan shows how the lower body starts the downswing. Note how his pelvis is already open by the time his hands get down to waist level.

 

 

You have to practice this lower body move until you get it right - otherwise you will always be plagued by an OTT problem. Also, note how Ben Hogan's right elbow hugs his right hip area when he makes the lower body move.

 

Jeff.

 

Error-correction: The red ring is drawn over the wrong object. The clubhead is actually lower, but still outside the hands.

[wetdogg]

good swing. u dont take it inside on the way back. just the camera angle. goes away good, but is defo over the top on way down. try putting a shaf in the ground about 2 feet behind the ball, and angle it so it lies over the ball and creates a triangle with the ground, about a foot off the ground. make sure the shaft oint s straight toward you target. use a tee so you can put the ball in the same position every time. hit shots with this, you can not come over the top! if you so, you will hit the shaft!

 

cheers

[Jeff in OR]

Mike,

 

Thanks for starting this topic and posting your swing for the world to see! You are helping a bunch of us who struggle with the exact same problem. I just took a "real" lesson this week and can barely stand to look at the video of my swing, it is depressing. I guess the good news is, I am done with buying clubs, quick fixes, and "working it out on the course." I am setting up a practice net in the garage, and then I am going to practice each night after work deconstructing my swing and following the instructions of my teacher. That and another dozen lessons, and I might consider going back out on the course next spring.

 

Jeff

[mpk200]

Many Thanks for your advice and help.

 

Feeling quite confident as its quite clear what i need to be working on.

 

Will let you know of my progress on the new swing.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[richdogg]

I have the same problem I found this to be very helpful. Thank you

[addamsmith]

JeffMann

Thank you for you contribution's to Golfwrx,

Your Replies and posting are so welcomed by the members here.

Great work

Addam smith

[richdogg]

What do you do if you start pushing shots out to the right. Is that from not turning through the swing

[Ezgolfer]

Excellent explanation Jeffman.

Any specific drills for this.

My pro told me to try to hit the inner quadrant of the ball . I found this to be helpful .

[JeffMann]

EzGolfer

 

I am not really a believer in drills. I believe that one should have a clear understanding of what the body should do at the start of the downswing, and then concentrate on performing that move.

 

Consider this photo again.

 

 

Note that Mike is in a very good position at the top of his swing, but he comes OTT because he starts the downswing with an upper body rotation that throws the clubshaft over his right shoulder steeply down to the ball. By contrast, Sergio Garcia shallows the clubshaft by first rotating his hips before his shoulders - and that causes his hips to be open in the mid-downswing, while his shoulders are still slightly closed. To get that lower body move right, a good swing thought is to start the downswing by turning one's mid-torso (especially one's navel) around towards the target at the START of the downswing as the INITIATING downswing move, and that will cause the hips to get ahead of the shoulders, as demonstrated in this diagram.

 

 

It is important, as well, that the hands get sufficiently deep at the end-backswing position. If the hands are too close to the ball-target line (arm backswing is too upright, too vertical), then the hands will come OTT even if one has a good downswing lower body move. A useful tip to get the hands sufficiently deep is to look at this comparison photo of Aaron Baddeley's old and new backswing.

 

 

Note that, in his old backswing, Badds hands are opposite his right mid-chest when his left arm is parallel to the ground. I now think that this backswing hand track is too steep. Note that his hands are deeper (further away from the ball-target line) in his new backswing when his left arm is parallel to the ground, and his hands are opposite his right outer-chest, and that his left arm is angled more back. Also, note that he has a slightly more bent-over spine angle, and that his shoulder turn angle is therefore slightly steeper, and that he is turning his shoulders at right angles to the spine in a rotary manner. I think that if one mimics this more rotary backswing action of Badds, which gets the hands deeper, and if one then initiates the downswing by rotating the lower-mid torso (navel area) to the left at the start of the donwswing, that one is less likley to come significantly OTT. One can practice this backswing and downswing move in front of a mirror.

 

Jeff.

[Ezgolfer]

Thanks ,

Will try this ..

I assume Badds new swing is S& T.

Do you think, i should try the same move with my conventional swing?

[JeffMann]

Ez Golfer - I personally don't think that Badds has a S&T swing (as described by Bennett/Plummer in their GD article) although he has developed a more rotary swing as a result of their teaching influence. You can certainly develop a more rotary swing by making certain adjustments to a conventional swing. If you want a simplified approach to a rotary swing, I would highly recommend that you buy Chuck Quinton's book "The Rotary Swing" , which is available at Chuck Quinton's website

 

Jeff.

[slicefixer]

Your pivot is fine, you'd be surprised at the names/number of great ballstrikers were/are VERY similar......the problem is your armswing/shaftplane do NOt match your pivot.....your arms aren't "deep" enough and nor is your shaft "shallow" enough for YOUR pivot......IF they were you could knock hell from it with your "over the top pivot"........at least IMOP from looking at the DtL 7 iron........IMOP you COULD very well be working on the wrong things/in the wrong manner ("trying to get there the HARD WAY"/"long way")........a player's PIVOt MUSt "match" their armswing/shaft plane and visa versa......IF not then you'll have to "correct things" in the transition (which is fine and can be a "timing" advantage in some cases)......but, in your case, NO "corrective action" is taking place in your transition.......result your "tied up in knot's" or "handcuffed" in the downswing and can't just "let it goi"......bad place to be.........steeeeeeeeeeep........result, when you hit it solid is pulls/pull hooks and when you skank it, wipes...etc......IMOP from looking @ ONE 7 iron......hehehehe......could be all wrong...... :D

 

Btw, from what I read in a quick once over, Dr. Mann IS correct.......:man_in_love:

[sigmatt]

Try taking a pw or 9i and hit little half shots swinging the club with your right arm only. The weight of the club will not allow you to come over the top, thus promoting a blow to the ball more from the inside. Don't worry about where the ball goes, just concentrate on staying more underneath the shot. Good Luck!!

[scores]

For u I like slicefixers answer because I know that feeling : big flip tighten the handle up first: Your are not as bad as the scores indicate the block when hit it goes long right automitic three off the tee...that s***s

 

slicefixer how do you get your arms deeper? we are all human? and make the same mistakes.