An unmarked Sod Farm under the new rules?

[antip]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @antip said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > @antip said:

> > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Shipwreck said:

> > > > > > > > > > So I contacted the course to clarify their position on this and the pro shop said “player MUST take relief one clubs length from nearest point of full relief, no closer to the hole.” He said that they are working on getting it printed on newer cards, but they have tons of ones printed without them.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Here we see the reason why LRs should NEVER be printed on score cards.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > While I agree that score cards will very rarely be the complete answer to "what are the local rules", I strongly disagree with this statement. The score card is a perfect opportunity to get some important points across, but it needs to be clearly and appropriately qualified....

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Our score card has an upfront statement that the following LRs are an abbreviated list of the permanent local rules and the player should refer to the full references on the notice board, rule book or APP, AND must also check the temporary local rules board. Many of the new MLRs are lengthy, and simply cannot be copied completely to the score card. With over 60 pages of close-type MLRs in the book, it is highly unlikely any club's complete LR set can fit on the card. The score card can also constructively use such shorthand as Heading and MLR X-ab applies.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > All competitions arranged by our national federation use the National Hard Card which naturally overrides any Local Rule on any course. Certainly some LRs are kept in place as they are relevant to a specific course but as such no LR list of more or less any course around here is untouched for a national level competition. On those courses where LRs are printed on the score card the competition office has a massive job to cover those LRs on each card to be used in that competition. And before you suggest the competitors can be advised that the LRs on the SC are not in force I can tell you that this has been tried and it just does not work as some players will use those LRs any way.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > So, in order to keep all possible workload in the minimum and the Local Rules on any course up to date we always advice our courses NOT to print any LRs in the SCs. This way any changes may be rapidly done and no SCs need to be discarded (which eventually always happens when LRs are printed on the cards). All Local Rules are then displayed on the website of the course and on the info board, and as there are 77 Model Local Rules today the translation of each MLR is available ad the caddiemaster's office for reference. According to our experience this is the best way to do it and you are free to strongly disagree with it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > We are clearly talking about different things. I am talking about normal club competitions, which benefit from having LRs on the card.

> > > > >

> > > > > No, they don't in the long run. Today everybody has a smartphone with access to internet. The most rational way to publish LRs is to put them on the home page of the course where they are easily accessed by the players and equally easily changed whenever needed as happens several times during the season (LCP, AGC, etc.). The same LRs are printed at the counter of the caddiemaster office and on the noteboard to remind players of currect situation. Simple as that.

> > > > >

> > > > > P.S. Don't know about Australia but here in Finland more and more people have dispensed with printed score cards altogether and using electronic SCs, which btw are provided by our national federation not to mention there are many commercial apps as well. Maybe they will land there Down Under in a few years as well :D

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > In the long run, we are all dead. I've never come across an electronic scoring device in club golf. And I've never come across anyone using a device to look up local rules. But never say never.

> > >

> > > As I wrote, maybe they will land in your country some day, we have had them already for years. My first competition arranged purely electronically (with Golfgamebook) was in 2007, on club level, of course. Each group had one device with which scores were kept, and as it was a shot gun start everyone could see the leaderboard all the time in real time. Big fun!

> > >

> > > On club level handicap rounds are registered electronically, no need to return a paper card. Easy as can be.

> >

> > I'm not aware of a single event in this country that has bypassed a requirement for a player to sign a paper card. Some pro tournaments have scorers with a device to update scores after every hole, but that is only for the leaderboard updating, it is not the player's card. Many clubs are moving to electronic scanners to read the paper card but no-one has ditched the paper card yet.

>

> Sure, our clubs also use paper cards but I was referring to handicap rounds not club competitions, although from the beginning of this year all competitions could easily be arranged electronically as today all golfers have an electronic membership card and there is an app going with it to use to feed the scores. This will be the future on club level in a few years for sure. As I wrote, most handicap rounds are already registered without any papers.

>

> I like the idea of dispensing with the paper cards altogether. Results are always there in real time throughout the entire competition and no futile waiting for many hours just in case there will be a prize. That is the future.

 

Here handicap rounds and club competitions are one and the same. Almost everything is under the umbrella of club competitions. Social rounds outside a club competition are not submitted for handicap. I appreciate this is a major difference between golf in this country and many other places. So the capacity to manipulate handicap is less here as regular golfers are playing virtually all their rounds in a club competition setting..

[Mr. Bean]

> @Newby said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> >

> > On club level handicap rounds are registered electronically, no need to return a paper card. Easy as can be.

>

> I thought Finland used the EGA handicap system which would seem to require cards

> viz re Extra Day Scores

> _3.8.6 The player must record the same details as mentioned in Clause 3.8.5 on his score card and he must return the score card signed by the marker and himself.

> 3.8.7 If the player, after registration on the EDS entry list, does not return his score card, a NR will be recorded for handicap purposes._

 

Electronic cards are accepted in EGA. Or does it somewhere say that the score card has to be of paper or cardboard?

[sui generis]

> @Newby said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> >

> > On club level handicap rounds are registered electronically, no need to return a paper card. Easy as can be.

>

> I thought Finland used the EGA handicap system which would seem to require cards

> viz re Extra Day Scores

> _3.8.6 The player must record the same details as mentioned in Clause 3.8.5 on his score card and he must return the score card signed by the marker and himself.

> 3.8.7 If the player, after registration on the EDS entry list, does not return his score card, a NR will be recorded for handicap purposes._

 

In 2019 scorecards are "certified" as opposed to "signed". Which is the RB's nod to electronic scoring, I believe.

[Sawgrass]

> @"James the Hogan Fan" said:

> > @Newby said:

> > > @"James the Hogan Fan" said:

> > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > > > @LeoLeo99 said:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > So I contacted the course to clarify their position on this and the pro shop said “player MUST take relief one clubs length from nearest point of full relief, no closer to the hole.” He said that they are working on getting it printed on newer cards, but they have tons of ones printed without them.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Is it free relief? I assume since it's one club, it's free.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It has to be free...they can’t force a penalty stroke on you.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Maybe they can. When it is clearly unreasonable to play the ball, there is no (free) relief under Rule 16.1

> > > >

> > > > I was trying to choose my words carefully...

> > > >

> > > > How would the course force someone to have an unplayable ball? I guess with certain terrain that would become possible.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > The environmentally sensitive penalty area comes to mind...

> >

> > Is this turf nursery really an environmentally sensitive area? No one has suggested that.

>

> Nothing to do with a sod farm, An answer to “how could a course force an unplayable ball” and nothing more, in a sense that an environmental sensitive area is one area from which you must take relief under penalty (if so marked). Not that it would be proper for a committee to mark a sod farm as such.

>

The Rules don't acknowledge Environmentally Sensitive Areas anymore, other than to say in Local Rue E-8.1 that an environmentally sensitive area may be defined as a No Play Zone. In addition, last year and this, ESAs and NPZs might be in an Abnormal Course Condition with free relief, or in a Penalty Area with likely penalty relief (sometimes a drop away from the NPZ section of a PA into the regular PA is possible.

 

In any case stating that a place is an environmentally sensitive area does not address the potential penalty aspect.

 

We're twisting ourselves into pretzels simply because the Committee didn't take a simple, appropriate action.

 

[Sawgrass]

> @Newby said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> >

> > On club level handicap rounds are registered electronically, no need to return a paper card. Easy as can be.

>

> I thought Finland used the EGA handicap system which would seem to require cards

> viz re Extra Day Scores

> _3.8.6 The player must record the same details as mentioned in Clause 3.8.5 on his score card and he must return the score card signed by the marker and himself.

> 3.8.7 If the player, after registration on the EDS entry list, does not return his score card, a NR will be recorded for handicap purposes._

 

 

I presume you fellows know this, but if not (or for others) rule 3.3b(2) now requires one to "certify" hole scores rather than the old requirement to "sign" a scorecard, and this change was made expressly to facilitate electronic scorekeeping.

[HitEmTrue]

> @Newby said:

> > @"James the Hogan Fan" said:

> > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > > @LeoLeo99 said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > So I contacted the course to clarify their position on this and the pro shop said “player MUST take relief one clubs length from nearest point of full relief, no closer to the hole.” He said that they are working on getting it printed on newer cards, but they have tons of ones printed without them.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Is it free relief? I assume since it's one club, it's free.

> > > > >

> > > > > It has to be free...they can’t force a penalty stroke on you.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Maybe they can. When it is clearly unreasonable to play the ball, there is no (free) relief under Rule 16.1

> > >

> > > I was trying to choose my words carefully...

> > >

> > > How would the course force someone to have an unplayable ball? I guess with certain terrain that would become possible.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > The environmentally sensitive penalty area comes to mind...

>

> Is this turf nursery really an environmentally sensitive area? No one has suggested that.

 

You suggested that they could require a player to take relief, AND force a penalty stroke upon the player. James gave an example.

 

[HitEmTrue]

> @Sawgrass said:

>

> We're twisting ourselves into pretzels simply because the Committee didn't take a simple, appropriate action.

>

 

This thread stopped being about the sod farm a while back for me...that has been answered.

 

So the course can declare a penalty area to also be a no play zone?

[Sawgrass]

> @HitEmTrue said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> >

> > We're twisting ourselves into pretzels simply because the Committee didn't take a simple, appropriate action.

> >

>

> This thread stopped being about the sod farm a while back for me...that has been answered.

>

> So the course can declare a penalty area to also be a no play zone?

 

The definition of NPZ requires it to be either in a PA or in an ACC. 16.1f describes the penalty-free mandatory relief from the ACC, 17.1e describes the issues in a PA, which might get you free of penalty but might not depending on whether it's your ball that's in the NPZ or if the NPZ simply interferes with your stance or intended swing.

[LeoLeo99]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > @Sawgrass said:

> > >

> > > We're twisting ourselves into pretzels simply because the Committee didn't take a simple, appropriate action.

> > >

> >

> > This thread stopped being about the sod farm a while back for me...that has been answered.

> >

> > So the course can declare a penalty area to also be a no play zone?

>

> The definition of NPZ requires it to be either in a PA or in an ACC. 16.1f describes the penalty-free mandatory relief from the ACC, 17.1e describes the issues in a PA, which might get you free of penalty but might not depending on whether it's your ball that's in the NPZ or if the NPZ simply interferes with your stance or intended swing.

 

What does ACC mean?

[Mr. Bean]

Abnormal Course Condition

[antip]

> @HitEmTrue said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> >

> > We're twisting ourselves into pretzels simply because the Committee didn't take a simple, appropriate action.

> >

>

> This thread stopped being about the sod farm a while back for me...that has been answered.

>

> So the course can declare a penalty area to also be a no play zone?

 

Yes. We have multiple PAs that have large NPZs within them - angled large rock-walled ponds that have short rough surrounding with red lines encompassing the lot. The areas within the rocks are defined as NPZ for safety purposes, no balls may be played from inside the rock areas.