An unmarked Sod Farm under the new rules?

[Newby]

Incidentally, I am told that the presence of a hole is irrelevant.

[Newby]

My Q: If the committee made no declaration to the effect that an area is either ACC or WG then it would simply be in the GA?

R&A: Yes, that’s right. They need to clarify the status of it. Otherwise, it is just a cut piece of grass in the general area.

 

 

[Mr. Bean]

> @Newby said:

> A contact at the R&A says _"_If is not an area designed for or intended to be used for putting (albeit that the turf may at some point become part of a green), it is not a wrong green_." _

> Unsurprisingly they go on to say _"_If the Club want to protect this, they should be declaring it as an ACC or ACC NPZ_".

> _

 

I can only assume that it was you who used the word 'putting' in your question because an area designed and intended for chipping is a Wrong Green by Definition.

[antip]

> @Newby said:

> A contact at the R&A says _"_If is not an area designed for or intended to be used for putting (albeit that the turf may at some point become part of a green), it is not a wrong green_." _

> Unsurprisingly they go on to say _"_If the Club want to protect this, they should be declaring it as an ACC or ACC NPZ_".

> _

 

Even an oral comment can be useful, although I note there is nothing published anywhere to this effect. And I entirely agree that a club should be marking the course clearly and thoroughly, but that is not the subject of discussion.

But while this comment could be helpful in the nursery green context (as it is not intended for putting) it has no relevance to the situation of two greens on the same hole with only one in play at any one time. Both are designed for, and intended to be used for putting, unless your contact wants to further qualify the above statement and say at the same time.

[Newby]

> @antip said:

 

> But while this comment could be helpful in the nursery green context (as it is not intended for putting) it has no relevance to the situation of two greens on the same hole with only one in play at any one time. Both are designed for, and intended to be used for putting, unless your contact wants to further qualify the above statement and say at the same time.

 

The conversation was only related to an 'independent' area of ground limited to two examples. A turf nursery for putting quality turf and a maintained but unused "putting green" without a designation.

[Shilgy]

> @Imp said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @Imp said:

> > > I flatly disagree, per the definitions of each. For something to be a wrong green it must be one of three things (no more, no less. The number shall be three - it doesn't say "Wrong greens include, but not limited to" and is devoid of another bullet that would say something more generic allowing for additional items, like, "and other such greens" or "etc..."). In this instance, "include" means "are".

> > >

> > > http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=definitions&subrulenum=73

> > >

> > > >**Wrong Green

> > > > Any green on the course other than the putting green for the hole the player is playing. Wrong greens include:

> > > > * The putting greens for all other holes that the player is not playing at the time,

> > > > * The normal putting green for a hole where a temporary green is being used, and

> > > > * All practice greens for putting, chipping or pitching, unless the Committee excludes them by Local Rule.

> > > > Wrong greens are part of the general area.**

> > >

> > > http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=definitions&subrulenum=54

> > >

> > > > Putting Green (Pertinent part of the definition...)

> > > > The putting green for a hole **contains the hole ** into which the player tries to play a ball.

> > > No hole? Not a putting green. Soup.

> > >

> > > --kC

> >

> > The original issue whether a sod farm qualifies as a Wrong Green is not about a green to be a putting green or not. A Wrong Green has been defined in the Definitions and it includes all kinds of greens prepared for play or practice, with or without holes.

> I quoted the definition of Wrong Green. I quoted the only three conditions listed in the new rule.

>

> Show me in the rules where it states how you read it. Please, quote it. Highlight it. I don't see "all kinds of greens". I see two very specific types in the 1st two bullets, they MUST be **putting** greens (and the new definition of a putting green is **it contains a hole**. The third and last test for a Wrong Green are practice greens unless the Committee excludes them by Local Rule.

>

> If the Sod Farm were a practice green, You'd have a point. But, per the discussion, it does not appear to be.

>

> So, I kindly request you to show me in the rules where it says "all kinds of greens" other than "putting greens (which must have holes into which the player tries to play a ball)."

>

> --kC

 

The rules state in the definition of wrong green that "wrong greens include"....the three you copied. It does not state that wrong greens "are limited to" those three. It is giving examples.

 

That said-declaring the area a NPZ would be best.

[Shipwreck]

So I contacted the course to clarify their position on this and the pro shop said “player MUST take relief one clubs length from nearest point of full relief, no closer to the hole.” He said that they are working on getting it printed on newer cards, but they have tons of ones printed without them.

[Newby]

Meantime a NPZ notice in the pro shop would be useful

[Mr. Bean]

> @Shipwreck said:

> So I contacted the course to clarify their position on this and the pro shop said “player MUST take relief one clubs length from nearest point of full relief, no closer to the hole.” He said that they are working on getting it printed on newer cards, but they have tons of ones printed without them.

 

Here we see the reason why LRs should NEVER be printed on score cards.

[antip]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @Shipwreck said:

> > So I contacted the course to clarify their position on this and the pro shop said “player MUST take relief one clubs length from nearest point of full relief, no closer to the hole.” He said that they are working on getting it printed on newer cards, but they have tons of ones printed without them.

>

> Here we see the reason why LRs should NEVER be printed on score cards.

 

While I agree that score cards will very rarely be the complete answer to "what are the local rules", I strongly disagree with this statement. The score card is a perfect opportunity to get some important points across, but it needs to be clearly and appropriately qualified....

 

Our score card has an upfront statement that the following LRs are an abbreviated list of the permanent local rules and the player should refer to the full references on the notice board, rule book or APP, AND must also check the temporary local rules board. Many of the new MLRs are lengthy, and simply cannot be copied completely to the score card. With over 60 pages of close-type MLRs in the book, it is highly unlikely any club's complete LR set can fit on the card. The score card can also constructively use such shorthand as Heading and MLR X-ab applies.

[Mr. Bean]

> @antip said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @Shipwreck said:

> > > So I contacted the course to clarify their position on this and the pro shop said “player MUST take relief one clubs length from nearest point of full relief, no closer to the hole.” He said that they are working on getting it printed on newer cards, but they have tons of ones printed without them.

> >

> > Here we see the reason why LRs should NEVER be printed on score cards.

>

> While I agree that score cards will very rarely be the complete answer to "what are the local rules", I strongly disagree with this statement. The score card is a perfect opportunity to get some important points across, but it needs to be clearly and appropriately qualified....

>

> Our score card has an upfront statement that the following LRs are an abbreviated list of the permanent local rules and the player should refer to the full references on the notice board, rule book or APP, AND must also check the temporary local rules board. Many of the new MLRs are lengthy, and simply cannot be copied completely to the score card. With over 60 pages of close-type MLRs in the book, it is highly unlikely any club's complete LR set can fit on the card. The score card can also constructively use such shorthand as Heading and MLR X-ab applies.

 

All competitions arranged by our national federation use the National Hard Card which naturally overrides any Local Rule on any course. Certainly some LRs are kept in place as they are relevant to a specific course but as such no LR list of more or less any course around here is untouched for a national level competition. On those courses where LRs are printed on the score card the competition office has a massive job to cover those LRs on each card to be used in that competition. And before you suggest the competitors can be advised that the LRs on the SC are not in force I can tell you that this has been tried and it just does not work as some players will use those LRs any way.

 

So, in order to keep all possible workload in the minimum and the Local Rules on any course up to date we always advice our courses NOT to print any LRs in the SCs. This way any changes may be rapidly done and no SCs need to be discarded (which eventually always happens when LRs are printed on the cards). All Local Rules are then displayed on the website of the course and on the info board, and as there are 77 Model Local Rules today the translation of each MLR is available ad the caddiemaster's office for reference. According to our experience this is the best way to do it and you are free to strongly disagree with it.

[antip]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @antip said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > @Shipwreck said:

> > > > So I contacted the course to clarify their position on this and the pro shop said “player MUST take relief one clubs length from nearest point of full relief, no closer to the hole.” He said that they are working on getting it printed on newer cards, but they have tons of ones printed without them.

> > >

> > > Here we see the reason why LRs should NEVER be printed on score cards.

> >

> > While I agree that score cards will very rarely be the complete answer to "what are the local rules", I strongly disagree with this statement. The score card is a perfect opportunity to get some important points across, but it needs to be clearly and appropriately qualified....

> >

> > Our score card has an upfront statement that the following LRs are an abbreviated list of the permanent local rules and the player should refer to the full references on the notice board, rule book or APP, AND must also check the temporary local rules board. Many of the new MLRs are lengthy, and simply cannot be copied completely to the score card. With over 60 pages of close-type MLRs in the book, it is highly unlikely any club's complete LR set can fit on the card. The score card can also constructively use such shorthand as Heading and MLR X-ab applies.

>

> All competitions arranged by our national federation use the National Hard Card which naturally overrides any Local Rule on any course. Certainly some LRs are kept in place as they are relevant to a specific course but as such no LR list of more or less any course around here is untouched for a national level competition. On those courses where LRs are printed on the score card the competition office has a massive job to cover those LRs on each card to be used in that competition. And before you suggest the competitors can be advised that the LRs on the SC are not in force I can tell you that this has been tried and it just does not work as some players will use those LRs any way.

>

> So, in order to keep all possible workload in the minimum and the Local Rules on any course up to date we always advice our courses NOT to print any LRs in the SCs. This way any changes may be rapidly done and no SCs need to be discarded (which eventually always happens when LRs are printed on the cards). All Local Rules are then displayed on the website of the course and on the info board, and as there are 77 Model Local Rules today the translation of each MLR is available ad the caddiemaster's office for reference. According to our experience this is the best way to do it and you are free to strongly disagree with it.

 

We are clearly talking about different things. I am talking about normal club competitions, which benefit from having LRs on the card. You are talking about "competitions arranged by our national federation", that is significant tournaments that fall under a hard card arrangement. I agree in such cases it is highly preferable to have dedicated score cards for that competition that do not have club LRs printed. But such events represent only a very small fraction of competition golf in this country. For example, my reasonably large city club (playing membership numbers of around 1000) runs some 250 competitions a year and none of those are under a national or State GA framework involving a hard card generic set of local rules. And for those clubs that feature the significant events more frequently, there is national club software support that allows a club to print a version of their score card for special competitions that have no local rules on them - to dovetail better with events that fall under a hard card. Of course, that does not necessarily eliminate the need for some limited additional local rules (additional to the hard card) but at the least it would significantly reduce their number to matters genuinely specific to that course.

[LeoLeo99]

 

> So I contacted the course to clarify their position on this and the pro shop said “player MUST take relief one clubs length from nearest point of full relief, no closer to the hole.” He said that they are working on getting it printed on newer cards, but they have tons of ones printed without them.

 

Is it free relief? I assume since it's one club, it's free.

[Shipwreck]

> @LeoLeo99 said:

>

> > So I contacted the course to clarify their position on this and the pro shop said “player MUST take relief one clubs length from nearest point of full relief, no closer to the hole.” He said that they are working on getting it printed on newer cards, but they have tons of ones printed without them.

>

> Is it free relief? I assume since it's one club, it's free.

 

Yes free relief.

[Newby]

Why wouldn't it be? Hopefully it will be designated as an ACC NPZ.

[Mr. Bean]

> @antip said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @antip said:

> > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > @Shipwreck said:

> > > > > So I contacted the course to clarify their position on this and the pro shop said “player MUST take relief one clubs length from nearest point of full relief, no closer to the hole.” He said that they are working on getting it printed on newer cards, but they have tons of ones printed without them.

> > > >

> > > > Here we see the reason why LRs should NEVER be printed on score cards.

> > >

> > > While I agree that score cards will very rarely be the complete answer to "what are the local rules", I strongly disagree with this statement. The score card is a perfect opportunity to get some important points across, but it needs to be clearly and appropriately qualified....

> > >

> > > Our score card has an upfront statement that the following LRs are an abbreviated list of the permanent local rules and the player should refer to the full references on the notice board, rule book or APP, AND must also check the temporary local rules board. Many of the new MLRs are lengthy, and simply cannot be copied completely to the score card. With over 60 pages of close-type MLRs in the book, it is highly unlikely any club's complete LR set can fit on the card. The score card can also constructively use such shorthand as Heading and MLR X-ab applies.

> >

> > All competitions arranged by our national federation use the National Hard Card which naturally overrides any Local Rule on any course. Certainly some LRs are kept in place as they are relevant to a specific course but as such no LR list of more or less any course around here is untouched for a national level competition. On those courses where LRs are printed on the score card the competition office has a massive job to cover those LRs on each card to be used in that competition. And before you suggest the competitors can be advised that the LRs on the SC are not in force I can tell you that this has been tried and it just does not work as some players will use those LRs any way.

> >

> > So, in order to keep all possible workload in the minimum and the Local Rules on any course up to date we always advice our courses NOT to print any LRs in the SCs. This way any changes may be rapidly done and no SCs need to be discarded (which eventually always happens when LRs are printed on the cards). All Local Rules are then displayed on the website of the course and on the info board, and as there are 77 Model Local Rules today the translation of each MLR is available ad the caddiemaster's office for reference. According to our experience this is the best way to do it and you are free to strongly disagree with it.

>

> We are clearly talking about different things. I am talking about normal club competitions, which benefit from having LRs on the card.

 

No, they don't in the long run. Today everybody has a smartphone with access to internet. The most rational way to publish LRs is to put them on the home page of the course where they are easily accessed by the players and equally easily changed whenever needed as happens several times during the season (LCP, AGC, etc.). The same LRs are printed at the counter of the caddiemaster office and on the noteboard to remind players of currect situation. Simple as that.

 

P.S. Don't know about Australia but here in Finland more and more people have dispensed with printed score cards altogether and using electronic SCs, which btw are provided by our national federation not to mention there are many commercial apps as well. Maybe they will land there Down Under in a few years as well :D

 

[HitEmTrue]

> @LeoLeo99 said:

>

> > So I contacted the course to clarify their position on this and the pro shop said “player MUST take relief one clubs length from nearest point of full relief, no closer to the hole.” He said that they are working on getting it printed on newer cards, but they have tons of ones printed without them.

>

> Is it free relief? I assume since it's one club, it's free.

 

It has to be free...they can’t force a penalty stroke on you.

 

[Newby]

> @HitEmTrue said:

> > @LeoLeo99 said:

> >

> > > So I contacted the course to clarify their position on this and the pro shop said “player MUST take relief one clubs length from nearest point of full relief, no closer to the hole.” He said that they are working on getting it printed on newer cards, but they have tons of ones printed without them.

> >

> > Is it free relief? I assume since it's one club, it's free.

>

> It has to be free...they can’t force a penalty stroke on you.

>

 

Maybe they can. When it is clearly unreasonable to play the ball, there is no (free) relief under Rule 16.1

[HitEmTrue]

> @Newby said:

> > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > @LeoLeo99 said:

> > >

> > > > So I contacted the course to clarify their position on this and the pro shop said “player MUST take relief one clubs length from nearest point of full relief, no closer to the hole.” He said that they are working on getting it printed on newer cards, but they have tons of ones printed without them.

> > >

> > > Is it free relief? I assume since it's one club, it's free.

> >

> > It has to be free...they can’t force a penalty stroke on you.

> >

>

> Maybe they can. When it is clearly unreasonable to play the ball, there is no (free) relief under Rule 16.1

 

I was trying to choose my words carefully...

 

How would the course force someone to have an unplayable ball? I guess with certain terrain that would become possible.

 

 

 

[antip]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @antip said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > @antip said:

> > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > @Shipwreck said:

> > > > > > So I contacted the course to clarify their position on this and the pro shop said “player MUST take relief one clubs length from nearest point of full relief, no closer to the hole.” He said that they are working on getting it printed on newer cards, but they have tons of ones printed without them.

> > > > >

> > > > > Here we see the reason why LRs should NEVER be printed on score cards.

> > > >

> > > > While I agree that score cards will very rarely be the complete answer to "what are the local rules", I strongly disagree with this statement. The score card is a perfect opportunity to get some important points across, but it needs to be clearly and appropriately qualified....

> > > >

> > > > Our score card has an upfront statement that the following LRs are an abbreviated list of the permanent local rules and the player should refer to the full references on the notice board, rule book or APP, AND must also check the temporary local rules board. Many of the new MLRs are lengthy, and simply cannot be copied completely to the score card. With over 60 pages of close-type MLRs in the book, it is highly unlikely any club's complete LR set can fit on the card. The score card can also constructively use such shorthand as Heading and MLR X-ab applies.

> > >

> > > All competitions arranged by our national federation use the National Hard Card which naturally overrides any Local Rule on any course. Certainly some LRs are kept in place as they are relevant to a specific course but as such no LR list of more or less any course around here is untouched for a national level competition. On those courses where LRs are printed on the score card the competition office has a massive job to cover those LRs on each card to be used in that competition. And before you suggest the competitors can be advised that the LRs on the SC are not in force I can tell you that this has been tried and it just does not work as some players will use those LRs any way.

> > >

> > > So, in order to keep all possible workload in the minimum and the Local Rules on any course up to date we always advice our courses NOT to print any LRs in the SCs. This way any changes may be rapidly done and no SCs need to be discarded (which eventually always happens when LRs are printed on the cards). All Local Rules are then displayed on the website of the course and on the info board, and as there are 77 Model Local Rules today the translation of each MLR is available ad the caddiemaster's office for reference. According to our experience this is the best way to do it and you are free to strongly disagree with it.

> >

> > We are clearly talking about different things. I am talking about normal club competitions, which benefit from having LRs on the card.

>

> No, they don't in the long run. Today everybody has a smartphone with access to internet. The most rational way to publish LRs is to put them on the home page of the course where they are easily accessed by the players and equally easily changed whenever needed as happens several times during the season (LCP, AGC, etc.). The same LRs are printed at the counter of the caddiemaster office and on the noteboard to remind players of currect situation. Simple as that.

>

> P.S. Don't know about Australia but here in Finland more and more people have dispensed with printed score cards altogether and using electronic SCs, which btw are provided by our national federation not to mention there are many commercial apps as well. Maybe they will land there Down Under in a few years as well :D

>

 

In the long run, we are all dead. I've never come across an electronic scoring device in club golf. And I've never come across anyone using a device to look up local rules. But never say never.

[James the Hogan Fan]

> @HitEmTrue said:

> > @Newby said:

> > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > @LeoLeo99 said:

> > > >

> > > > > So I contacted the course to clarify their position on this and the pro shop said “player MUST take relief one clubs length from nearest point of full relief, no closer to the hole.” He said that they are working on getting it printed on newer cards, but they have tons of ones printed without them.

> > > >

> > > > Is it free relief? I assume since it's one club, it's free.

> > >

> > > It has to be free...they can’t force a penalty stroke on you.

> > >

> >

> > Maybe they can. When it is clearly unreasonable to play the ball, there is no (free) relief under Rule 16.1

>

> I was trying to choose my words carefully...

>

> How would the course force someone to have an unplayable ball? I guess with certain terrain that would become possible.

>

>

>

 

The environmentally sensitive penalty area comes to mind...

[Newby]

> @"James the Hogan Fan" said:

> > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > @Newby said:

> > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > @LeoLeo99 said:

> > > > >

> > > > > > So I contacted the course to clarify their position on this and the pro shop said “player MUST take relief one clubs length from nearest point of full relief, no closer to the hole.” He said that they are working on getting it printed on newer cards, but they have tons of ones printed without them.

> > > > >

> > > > > Is it free relief? I assume since it's one club, it's free.

> > > >

> > > > It has to be free...they can’t force a penalty stroke on you.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Maybe they can. When it is clearly unreasonable to play the ball, there is no (free) relief under Rule 16.1

> >

> > I was trying to choose my words carefully...

> >

> > How would the course force someone to have an unplayable ball? I guess with certain terrain that would become possible.

> >

> >

> >

>

> The environmentally sensitive penalty area comes to mind...

 

Is this turf nursery really an environmentally sensitive area? No one has suggested that.

[Newby]

> @HitEmTrue said:

> > @Newby said:

> > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > @LeoLeo99 said:

> > > >

> > > > > So I contacted the course to clarify their position on this and the pro shop said “player MUST take relief one clubs length from nearest point of full relief, no closer to the hole.” He said that they are working on getting it printed on newer cards, but they have tons of ones printed without them.

> > > >

> > > > Is it free relief? I assume since it's one club, it's free.

> > >

> > > It has to be free...they can’t force a penalty stroke on you.

> > >

> >

> > Maybe they can. When it is clearly unreasonable to play the ball, there is no (free) relief under Rule 16.1

>

> I was trying to choose my words carefully...

>

> How would the course force someone to have an unplayable ball? I guess with certain terrain that would become possible.

>

>

>

 

A ball stuck against an OB wall say? Although the committee wouldn't have forced that situation, it is arguable that there would be a penalty. But then 16.1f says the player must take free relief.

[antip]

> @Newby said:

> > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > @Newby said:

> > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > @LeoLeo99 said:

> > > > >

> > > > > > So I contacted the course to clarify their position on this and the pro shop said “player MUST take relief one clubs length from nearest point of full relief, no closer to the hole.” He said that they are working on getting it printed on newer cards, but they have tons of ones printed without them.

> > > > >

> > > > > Is it free relief? I assume since it's one club, it's free.

> > > >

> > > > It has to be free...they can’t force a penalty stroke on you.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Maybe they can. When it is clearly unreasonable to play the ball, there is no (free) relief under Rule 16.1

> >

> > I was trying to choose my words carefully...

> >

> > How would the course force someone to have an unplayable ball? I guess with certain terrain that would become possible.

> >

> >

> >

>

> A ball stuck against an OB wall say? Although the committee wouldn't have forced that situation, it is arguable that there would be a penalty. But then 16.1f says the player must take free relief.

 

As does 13.1f(2). But sometimes free relief does not exist, eg back of a bunker and no legitimate RA in the bunker; or if player has fallen foul of 16.1a(3).

[Mr. Bean]

> @antip said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @antip said:

> > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > @Shipwreck said:

> > > > > > > So I contacted the course to clarify their position on this and the pro shop said “player MUST take relief one clubs length from nearest point of full relief, no closer to the hole.” He said that they are working on getting it printed on newer cards, but they have tons of ones printed without them.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Here we see the reason why LRs should NEVER be printed on score cards.

> > > > >

> > > > > While I agree that score cards will very rarely be the complete answer to "what are the local rules", I strongly disagree with this statement. The score card is a perfect opportunity to get some important points across, but it needs to be clearly and appropriately qualified....

> > > > >

> > > > > Our score card has an upfront statement that the following LRs are an abbreviated list of the permanent local rules and the player should refer to the full references on the notice board, rule book or APP, AND must also check the temporary local rules board. Many of the new MLRs are lengthy, and simply cannot be copied completely to the score card. With over 60 pages of close-type MLRs in the book, it is highly unlikely any club's complete LR set can fit on the card. The score card can also constructively use such shorthand as Heading and MLR X-ab applies.

> > > >

> > > > All competitions arranged by our national federation use the National Hard Card which naturally overrides any Local Rule on any course. Certainly some LRs are kept in place as they are relevant to a specific course but as such no LR list of more or less any course around here is untouched for a national level competition. On those courses where LRs are printed on the score card the competition office has a massive job to cover those LRs on each card to be used in that competition. And before you suggest the competitors can be advised that the LRs on the SC are not in force I can tell you that this has been tried and it just does not work as some players will use those LRs any way.

> > > >

> > > > So, in order to keep all possible workload in the minimum and the Local Rules on any course up to date we always advice our courses NOT to print any LRs in the SCs. This way any changes may be rapidly done and no SCs need to be discarded (which eventually always happens when LRs are printed on the cards). All Local Rules are then displayed on the website of the course and on the info board, and as there are 77 Model Local Rules today the translation of each MLR is available ad the caddiemaster's office for reference. According to our experience this is the best way to do it and you are free to strongly disagree with it.

> > >

> > > We are clearly talking about different things. I am talking about normal club competitions, which benefit from having LRs on the card.

> >

> > No, they don't in the long run. Today everybody has a smartphone with access to internet. The most rational way to publish LRs is to put them on the home page of the course where they are easily accessed by the players and equally easily changed whenever needed as happens several times during the season (LCP, AGC, etc.). The same LRs are printed at the counter of the caddiemaster office and on the noteboard to remind players of currect situation. Simple as that.

> >

> > P.S. Don't know about Australia but here in Finland more and more people have dispensed with printed score cards altogether and using electronic SCs, which btw are provided by our national federation not to mention there are many commercial apps as well. Maybe they will land there Down Under in a few years as well :D

> >

>

> In the long run, we are all dead. I've never come across an electronic scoring device in club golf. And I've never come across anyone using a device to look up local rules. But never say never.

 

As I wrote, maybe they will land in your country some day, we have had them already for years. My first competition arranged purely electronically (with Golfgamebook) was in 2007, on club level, of course. Each group had one device with which scores were kept, and as it was a shot gun start everyone could see the leaderboard all the time in real time. Big fun!

 

On club level handicap rounds are registered electronically, no need to return a paper card. Easy as can be.

[antip]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @antip said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > @antip said:

> > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > @Shipwreck said:

> > > > > > > > So I contacted the course to clarify their position on this and the pro shop said “player MUST take relief one clubs length from nearest point of full relief, no closer to the hole.” He said that they are working on getting it printed on newer cards, but they have tons of ones printed without them.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Here we see the reason why LRs should NEVER be printed on score cards.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > While I agree that score cards will very rarely be the complete answer to "what are the local rules", I strongly disagree with this statement. The score card is a perfect opportunity to get some important points across, but it needs to be clearly and appropriately qualified....

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Our score card has an upfront statement that the following LRs are an abbreviated list of the permanent local rules and the player should refer to the full references on the notice board, rule book or APP, AND must also check the temporary local rules board. Many of the new MLRs are lengthy, and simply cannot be copied completely to the score card. With over 60 pages of close-type MLRs in the book, it is highly unlikely any club's complete LR set can fit on the card. The score card can also constructively use such shorthand as Heading and MLR X-ab applies.

> > > > >

> > > > > All competitions arranged by our national federation use the National Hard Card which naturally overrides any Local Rule on any course. Certainly some LRs are kept in place as they are relevant to a specific course but as such no LR list of more or less any course around here is untouched for a national level competition. On those courses where LRs are printed on the score card the competition office has a massive job to cover those LRs on each card to be used in that competition. And before you suggest the competitors can be advised that the LRs on the SC are not in force I can tell you that this has been tried and it just does not work as some players will use those LRs any way.

> > > > >

> > > > > So, in order to keep all possible workload in the minimum and the Local Rules on any course up to date we always advice our courses NOT to print any LRs in the SCs. This way any changes may be rapidly done and no SCs need to be discarded (which eventually always happens when LRs are printed on the cards). All Local Rules are then displayed on the website of the course and on the info board, and as there are 77 Model Local Rules today the translation of each MLR is available ad the caddiemaster's office for reference. According to our experience this is the best way to do it and you are free to strongly disagree with it.

> > > >

> > > > We are clearly talking about different things. I am talking about normal club competitions, which benefit from having LRs on the card.

> > >

> > > No, they don't in the long run. Today everybody has a smartphone with access to internet. The most rational way to publish LRs is to put them on the home page of the course where they are easily accessed by the players and equally easily changed whenever needed as happens several times during the season (LCP, AGC, etc.). The same LRs are printed at the counter of the caddiemaster office and on the noteboard to remind players of currect situation. Simple as that.

> > >

> > > P.S. Don't know about Australia but here in Finland more and more people have dispensed with printed score cards altogether and using electronic SCs, which btw are provided by our national federation not to mention there are many commercial apps as well. Maybe they will land there Down Under in a few years as well :D

> > >

> >

> > In the long run, we are all dead. I've never come across an electronic scoring device in club golf. And I've never come across anyone using a device to look up local rules. But never say never.

>

> As I wrote, maybe they will land in your country some day, we have had them already for years. My first competition arranged purely electronically (with Golfgamebook) was in 2007, on club level, of course. Each group had one device with which scores were kept, and as it was a shot gun start everyone could see the leaderboard all the time in real time. Big fun!

>

> On club level handicap rounds are registered electronically, no need to return a paper card. Easy as can be.

 

I'm not aware of a single event in this country that has bypassed a requirement for a player to sign a paper card. Some pro tournaments have scorers with a device to update scores after every hole, but that is only for the leaderboard updating, it is not the player's card. Many clubs are moving to electronic scanners to read the paper card but no-one has ditched the paper card yet.

[Mr. Bean]

> @antip said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @antip said:

> > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > @Shipwreck said:

> > > > > > > > > So I contacted the course to clarify their position on this and the pro shop said “player MUST take relief one clubs length from nearest point of full relief, no closer to the hole.” He said that they are working on getting it printed on newer cards, but they have tons of ones printed without them.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Here we see the reason why LRs should NEVER be printed on score cards.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > While I agree that score cards will very rarely be the complete answer to "what are the local rules", I strongly disagree with this statement. The score card is a perfect opportunity to get some important points across, but it needs to be clearly and appropriately qualified....

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Our score card has an upfront statement that the following LRs are an abbreviated list of the permanent local rules and the player should refer to the full references on the notice board, rule book or APP, AND must also check the temporary local rules board. Many of the new MLRs are lengthy, and simply cannot be copied completely to the score card. With over 60 pages of close-type MLRs in the book, it is highly unlikely any club's complete LR set can fit on the card. The score card can also constructively use such shorthand as Heading and MLR X-ab applies.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > All competitions arranged by our national federation use the National Hard Card which naturally overrides any Local Rule on any course. Certainly some LRs are kept in place as they are relevant to a specific course but as such no LR list of more or less any course around here is untouched for a national level competition. On those courses where LRs are printed on the score card the competition office has a massive job to cover those LRs on each card to be used in that competition. And before you suggest the competitors can be advised that the LRs on the SC are not in force I can tell you that this has been tried and it just does not work as some players will use those LRs any way.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So, in order to keep all possible workload in the minimum and the Local Rules on any course up to date we always advice our courses NOT to print any LRs in the SCs. This way any changes may be rapidly done and no SCs need to be discarded (which eventually always happens when LRs are printed on the cards). All Local Rules are then displayed on the website of the course and on the info board, and as there are 77 Model Local Rules today the translation of each MLR is available ad the caddiemaster's office for reference. According to our experience this is the best way to do it and you are free to strongly disagree with it.

> > > > >

> > > > > We are clearly talking about different things. I am talking about normal club competitions, which benefit from having LRs on the card.

> > > >

> > > > No, they don't in the long run. Today everybody has a smartphone with access to internet. The most rational way to publish LRs is to put them on the home page of the course where they are easily accessed by the players and equally easily changed whenever needed as happens several times during the season (LCP, AGC, etc.). The same LRs are printed at the counter of the caddiemaster office and on the noteboard to remind players of currect situation. Simple as that.

> > > >

> > > > P.S. Don't know about Australia but here in Finland more and more people have dispensed with printed score cards altogether and using electronic SCs, which btw are provided by our national federation not to mention there are many commercial apps as well. Maybe they will land there Down Under in a few years as well :D

> > > >

> > >

> > > In the long run, we are all dead. I've never come across an electronic scoring device in club golf. And I've never come across anyone using a device to look up local rules. But never say never.

> >

> > As I wrote, maybe they will land in your country some day, we have had them already for years. My first competition arranged purely electronically (with Golfgamebook) was in 2007, on club level, of course. Each group had one device with which scores were kept, and as it was a shot gun start everyone could see the leaderboard all the time in real time. Big fun!

> >

> > On club level handicap rounds are registered electronically, no need to return a paper card. Easy as can be.

>

> I'm not aware of a single event in this country that has bypassed a requirement for a player to sign a paper card. Some pro tournaments have scorers with a device to update scores after every hole, but that is only for the leaderboard updating, it is not the player's card. Many clubs are moving to electronic scanners to read the paper card but no-one has ditched the paper card yet.

 

Sure, our clubs also use paper cards but I was referring to handicap rounds not club competitions, although from the beginning of this year all competitions could easily be arranged electronically as today all golfers have an electronic membership card and there is an app going with it to use to feed the scores. This will be the future on club level in a few years for sure. As I wrote, most handicap rounds are already registered without any papers.

 

I like the idea of dispensing with the paper cards altogether. Results are always there in real time throughout the entire competition and no futile waiting for many hours just in case there will be a prize. That is the future.

[Newby]

> @antip said:

 

> I'm not aware of a single event in this country that has bypassed a requirement for a player to sign a paper card.

 

The same here. The CONGU Regulations insist on cards for all handicap qualifying scores.

But no doubt it will come with the WHS

[Newby]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

>

> On club level handicap rounds are registered electronically, no need to return a paper card. Easy as can be.

 

I thought Finland used the EGA handicap system which would seem to require cards

viz re Extra Day Scores

_3.8.6 The player must record the same details as mentioned in Clause 3.8.5 on his score card and he must return the score card signed by the marker and himself.

3.8.7 If the player, after registration on the EDS entry list, does not return his score card, a NR will be recorded for handicap purposes._

[James the Hogan Fan]

> @Newby said:

> > @"James the Hogan Fan" said:

> > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > > @LeoLeo99 said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > So I contacted the course to clarify their position on this and the pro shop said “player MUST take relief one clubs length from nearest point of full relief, no closer to the hole.” He said that they are working on getting it printed on newer cards, but they have tons of ones printed without them.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Is it free relief? I assume since it's one club, it's free.

> > > > >

> > > > > It has to be free...they can’t force a penalty stroke on you.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Maybe they can. When it is clearly unreasonable to play the ball, there is no (free) relief under Rule 16.1

> > >

> > > I was trying to choose my words carefully...

> > >

> > > How would the course force someone to have an unplayable ball? I guess with certain terrain that would become possible.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > The environmentally sensitive penalty area comes to mind...

>

> Is this turf nursery really an environmentally sensitive area? No one has suggested that.

 

Nothing to do with a sod farm, An answer to “how could a course force an unplayable ball” and nothing more, in a sense that an environmental sensitive area is one area from which you must take relief under penalty (if so marked). Not that it would be proper for a committee to mark a sod farm as such.