minimum temperature for composite or titanium drivers?

[avrag]

can they break?

is there a temperature, that is too low for titanium or fusion drivers? is there a danger that they could break, when being hit in the cold? i remember, that there is such a recommandation for aluminium baseball bats: "not be used at temperatures under...."
or can i go out and practice in the winter, no matter what the conditions are?

[stryper]

[quote name='avrag' post='800754' date='Nov 24 2007, 08:28 AM']is there a temperature, that is too low for titanium or fusion drivers? is there a danger that they could break, when being hit in the cold? i remember, that there is such a recommandation for aluminium baseball bats: "not be used at temperatures under...."
or can i go out and practice in the winter, no matter what the conditions are?[/quote]
Not sure how this applies to golf, but the minimum temperature recommendations for bats actually has little or nothing to do with the properties of the bat; rather it's the properties of the ball that changes, in that it becomes harder and therefore harder on the bat.

[3 Putts & A Snap Hook]

This is such a coincidence as i've just cracked the face on my r5 TP this morning after hitting it on the driving range in very cold conditions (1-2* C). I think without doubt there is a risk of failures in these cold temps.

[Chief71]

Ahh...this is right up my alley(I'm a 6th grade science teacher)

When it is colder, the density of gases, liquids, and solids becomes higher(tho much more evident in fluids...ie gases and liquids)

When these substances increase in temperature, their density drops.

I do an experiment in school that illustrates this very well with seawater. Kids love it.

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Density"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Density[/url]

[Q-Ball]

I hope they can break, will make my transition to my next driver easier on the elievability scale for the wife

Metal becomes more brittle in cold temps, balls become denser as mentioned above, the right combo could be the end of a driver.

[Veritas]

In colder weather the metal in the drivers will become more brittle and more at risk of crack formation and propagation. So yes your driver is more at risk of cracking in colder weather. What the temperature is that you should use your driver in however I do not know. I would recommend calling the manufacturer as I'm sure there R&D departments have investigated this.

I also suspect that composite drivers are even more at risk due to the multimaterial nature and the fact that different materials react differently to temperature changes. As a result, the materials in your driver will change in density and volume at different rates. As a result, the stresses would be increased in the areas these materials are bonded together. However, I do not have proof that composites are more at risk, I just suspect they are more at risk.

[K2_2]

Interesting topic! Years ago some friends using composites on cars found that carbon fiber they were using (10+ years ago, please keep that in mind) was more brittle at low temps.

I would hope that the R&D teams from most manufacturers have looked at this though. Also, members from Scotland or parts of Canada might chime in, as they probably have years of cold weather testing experiences to share!

[calc61]

if it's that cold I won't even bother to play.

[gochargers5]

All materials have different thermal expansion coefficient. So, I think there may be a problem at the interface between differnet materials at cold temp or high temp. For example, epoxy between shaft and driver head. Or interface between carbon and titanium at composite driver. I think high temp is more concern than cold temp. Anyway, just be careful your body when you hit a ball at cold temp. Golf club may be stronger than your body.

[joem06]

Who cares? Hit it anyway!!!! Drivers have warranties for a reason. If the head cracks, send it back and they will replace it...

[Veritas]

[quote name='joem06' post='800902' date='Nov 24 2007, 01:47 PM']Who cares? Hit it anyway!!!! Drivers have warranties for a reason. If the head cracks, send it back and they will replace it...[/quote]

You would care if the warranty on your driver is void.

[Golfdog]

Keep in mind that aluminum, titanium and composite materials are all used in the structure of aircraft, which routinely operate in temps of -30ºF - -40ºF.

[Spectrums]

Couldn't the cold exaggerate the minor stress fractures, making them larger?

[Veritas]

Keep in mind that aluminum and titanium comes in many different forms of alloys, as well as undergo very different manufacturing processing techniques for golf clubs than do the alloys that are used in planes. This can give them very different properties. Just because an airplane uses titanium and aluminum alloys that can withstand extremely high stresses at temperatures from -30 to -40 does not mean your club can withstand the temperatures. However, I do imagine that clubs are designed to withstand some colder temperatures, but there is no doubt colder temperatures make the metal more brittle. It's just a question of what that temperature range is and if that increased brittleness is significant in weather that people can stand to get out and practice in.

Why don't people who have experience using their clubs in colder temperatures just tell us whether they've had any problems and that should answer the question.

[golfernut78]

i've played golf in 39* f temperatures and had not driver failures (100-105 ss).

i would say that the clubs could or could not fail, depending on a few things:
1. where are your clubs stored prior to golfing?
2. do you use a headcover?
3. the ball.

i keep my clubs in the house, not the car or the garage so they aren't that cold when the round starts. i use a headover all the time, so there is no problem with the head getting cold or cold from the wind. also, i tend to use a softer ball in the winter, and keep the ball i'm playing and a extra ball in my pocket which keeps the ball warm and softer.

[avrag]

well, to be more precise: i am talking about practicing on the range with range balls at a temperature of about 5-6* C (40* F). if it gets colder than that, i'll stay indoors

[titleist1]

I played one morning last year, it was around 25 degrees when we started. To make a long story
short, cracked a Cobra X speed w/ a YS Power shaft. The metal cracked where the crown meets
the face, sent it back to cobra and had a new one in two weeks. (YS-Power shafts were no longer
offered so they sent me one w/ a G.D. pershing)

[bjrapper]

I've hit balls many times in sub freezing conditions. I've been using fusion technology for a few years (Callaway) and the only issue I've had so far is a slight rattle. Seems that the rat glue couldn't hold whatever was loose when it was really cold but as soon as the club warmed up again the rattle stopped. Became a little more difficult to convince Callaway there was a rattle in the head but they replaced the club anyway.

[alexthegrrr8]

I've seen some of the responses to this thread and those directed towards cold temperatures and bats. For the composite bats the manufacturers state that you shouldn't use them in temps under 70* or you really have a good chance of breaking/cracking the bats.

I imagine that it is possible to crack the crown of a comp driver head in cold temperatures but that being said I think that you'd have to hit the ball with the crown to achieve...man that would be ugly.

Alex

[monty]

Being n Canada I've played in the cold/snow so here is my 2 cents:
Never busted a club,but found the frozen dirt will leave lots of marks on the face.Also,I could see cracking happening with shots near the crown or heel of woods because these feel more severe in the cold.

[joem06]

And why would it be void??? Does Callaway have something in their warranty policy, saying "Do not play the driver in temperatures under xx*F because it will crack"

[Veritas]

[quote name='joem06' post='801882' date='Nov 25 2007, 04:08 PM']And why would it be void??? Does Callaway have something in their warranty policy, saying "Do not play the driver in temperatures under xx*F because it will crack"[/quote]

Sorry if I was unclear, but I am not directly referring to a voided warranty due to swinging the club in a certain temperature. What I mean is you may have bought a demo club or something that has no warranty to start when you purchase it. I know some taylor made clubs come with "no warranty"stamped on the hosel. Here is a thread that discusses this situation.

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=122098&hl=no+warrenty"]http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?sh...;hl=no+warrenty[/url]

[mozgolf]

[quote name='Chief71' post='800831' date='Nov 24 2007, 05:51 PM']Ahh...this is right up my alley(I'm a 6th grade science teacher)

When it is colder, the density of gases, liquids, and solids becomes higher(tho much more evident in fluids...ie gases and liquids)

When these substances increase in temperature, their density drops.

I do an experiment in school that illustrates this very well with seawater. Kids love it.

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Density"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Density[/url][/quote]

What are you actually saying? The clubs will actually get stronger/ denser in the cold?

I hit balls in -20*C in Antartica- none of the drivers (or irons for that matter) fell apart.

I am no rocket scientist but would expect that it would need to be something like about -200*C or something to have a really adverse affect and make metals like Titanium brittle. They use it on spaceships and submarines because of its ability to deal with temperature extremes.

[Veritas]

[quote name='arfrizzell' post='802660' date='Nov 26 2007, 09:22 AM'][quote name='Chief71' post='800831' date='Nov 24 2007, 05:51 PM']Ahh...this is right up my alley(I'm a 6th grade science teacher)

When it is colder, the density of gases, liquids, and solids becomes higher(tho much more evident in fluids...ie gases and liquids)

When these substances increase in temperature, their density drops.

I do an experiment in school that illustrates this very well with seawater. Kids love it.

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Density"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Density[/url][/quote]

What are you actually saying? The clubs will actually get stronger/ denser in the cold?

I hit balls in -20*C in Antartica none of the drivers (or irons for that matter) fell apart.

I am no rocket scientist but would expect that it would need to be something like about -200*C or something to have a really adverse affect and make a metals like Titanium brittle. They use it on spaceships and submarines because of its ability to deal with temperature extremes
[/quote]

Once again, the Titanium alloys and the processing of the materials that are used on spaceships etc. are not the same alloys and processing that are used in golf clubs. The type of alloys and especially the processing that is used can have very dramatic effects on the final properties. However, yes these metals are good at handling extreme temperatures and is why your clubs didn't just fall apart. The question of whether these clubs will break in cold temperatures is more of an exercise in probability and manufacturing defects. What you will likely have is under normal circumstances something like 3% of clubs will crack under normal conditions and under colder temperatures it will go up to 5% (percentages used just for illustrative purposed). While this means most people have no problem, some people will.

This will be due to manufacturing defects that under normal circumstances would not be a problem. Manufacturing defects can cause stress concentrations in the material that the material may be able to normally withstand but under the increased brittleness of the material under cold conditions will cause crack formation and propagation. In addition, any microcracks formed will more easily propagate due to the brittleness. So if you have at some point caused a microcrack that you can not see, it can also get worse under colder conditions So as a result, you decrease the tolerance for manufacturing defects and crack propagation when you play in colder weather. As a result, you will still have most people that have no problem, but you will still see an increased number in cracks on the order of maybe 5 out of 100 club failures instead of 1 out of 100 failures. There are also issues with fatigue that I will not go into.

All manufacturing is going to have some portion of their product that have material defects and the engineers and the business side will have to determine an acceptable % of material defects (ie 30%, 10%, 5%, 1%, .0001%, etc.). This is why your clubs have warranties. They know that a certain number of clubs will fail, but it is cheaper for them to replace those clubs that fail than to make the QC more strict. Large defects will fail under normal conditions while the smaller defects will only fail if put into an environment where cracks are easier to form, ie. in colder conditions. The tolerance in a automobiles and spaceships for material defects is going to be much much smaller than in golf clubs. This is another reason why you can't compare the metals used in these situations compared to golf clubs.

Arfrizzell, what were you doing in Antartica with golf clubs?

Hope this didn't bore anyone too much.

[mozgolf]

Arfrizzell, what were you doing in Antartica with golf clubs?

Playing golf in the Ross Ice Shelf Open, the orange balls were a real good idea