Do you throw or twist?

[KMeloney]

18 hours ago, Nail_It said:

It is the basis for which a 'swinging' action originates. Anything other than a 'swinging action' is a brawn and grit, muscular-driven, manipulative, manhandled force like a lumberjack applies to his axe to chop down a tree.      

 

I think we're led to believe that DeChambeau's swing is the latter, based on him increasing his mass and strength. But is it? Do you think he swings it, or manipulates it?

[GreatStrike]

4 hours ago, KMeloney said:

 

I think we're led to believe that DeChambeau's swing is the latter, based on him increasing his mass and strength. But is it? Do you think he swings it, or manipulates it?

 

I think DeChambeau definitely 'swings'. I think he just wanted to get bigger and stronger so he could 'swing' faster - much like a teenager gets bigger and stronger as he becomes an adult. 

 

You can see that DeChambeau pulls on the clubshaft in-line (longitudinally) in the direction the shaft is pointing and his shaft is nicely on-plane. Plus, his downswing hand path is very wide which is a good indicator of someone who is 'swinging' the club by keeping the string shaft taught with 'stretch tension'.

 

Virtually all the tour pros 'swing' the club unlike most amateur golfers who try to use the lumberjack method. Amateurs consequently can't figure out why they cast, early extend, come OTT, lack clubhead speed, lack accuracy and consistency, etc., etc. - and must muscle manipulate the clubhead to hopefully square the clubface, which is a total hit-'n-miss situation. If they used their golf swing move to swing a weight on the end of a string they'd never get the weight swinging!   

 

Even Jon Rahm and Dustin Johnson swing the club, but due to their exaggerated bowed lead wrist their shaft angle looks different midway down (compared to say Adam Scott, Louis Oosthuizen, Rory McIlroy, Justin Rose or Tiger Woods) so it only looks like side force is being applied to the shaft...but the shaft seeks an in-line and on-plane condition after about P6. Dustin Johnson's downswing originates more from a body core rotation whereas most tour players' downswings originate from their hands/forearms with the body reacting, supporting and aiding the action...which brings about the question of whether you (as an individual) are better able to get the swing started right away from the get-go with body rotation or by using your hands/forearms.     

 

 

     

Edited March 18, 2021 by Nail_It

[Hilts1969]

On 5/19/2020 at 1:40 PM, Golfbeat said:

I am curious how many people throw versus twist.

 

 

 

 

I pull like a bell ringer on crack but I’m trying to twist because good thIngs happen like magic when I do.  Tried the throwing thing worked okay for about 3 holes. 

[GreatStrike]

8 hours ago, Nail_It said:

Virtually all the tour pros 'swing' the club unlike most amateur golfers who try to use the lumberjack method. Amateurs consequently can't figure out why they cast, early extend, come OTT, lack clubhead speed, lack accuracy and consistency, etc., etc. - and must muscle manipulate the clubhead to hopefully square the clubface, which is a total hit-'n-miss situation. If they used their golf swing move to swing a weight on the end of a string they'd never get the weight swinging!   

 

Even Jon Rahm and Dustin Johnson swing the club, but due to their exaggerated bowed lead wrist their shaft angle looks different midway down (compared to say Adam Scott, Louis Oosthuizen, Rory McIlroy, Justin Rose or Tiger Woods) so it only looks like side force is being applied to the shaft...but the shaft seeks an in-line and on-plane condition after about P6. Dustin Johnson's downswing originates more from a body core rotation whereas most tour players' downswings originate from their hands/forearms with the body reacting, supporting and aiding the action...which brings about the question of whether you (as an individual) are better able to get the swing started right away from the get-go with body rotation or by using your hands/forearms.          

 

Some of you may find this interesting and helpful...

 

You can test yourself to see whether you (as an individual) are better able to get the swing started right away from the get-go with body rotation (like Dustin Johnson) or by using your hands/forearms (like most tour players) do. 

 

First, let's get the feel for getting something swinging. It's interesting (actually quite amazing) how many people are unable to get a weight on the end of a string swinging right away. The trick (technique) is to be able to create 'stretch tension' of the string as soon as possible. That means the string must not be slack - it must become taught for there to be a swinging action. The same applies to a golf 'swing' with a golf club!  

 

Weight on end of string test: Get a small weight (e.g. nut, fishing weight, nail clipper, etc.) and tie it to a string (e.g. kite string) about the length of your driver (~45"). Place the weight outside and a little to the rear of your trail foot -in a position in which you would find it best to start the weight swinging as soon as possible if you were going to swing it around in a circle (except you will only have a fraction of a circle to get it swinging).  Make sure the string doesn't have any slack in it, and the string can be made taught right away. 

 

Try to get the weight starting swinging first by holding the string only in your dominant hand. You have two methods to use: (1) Start the weight swinging as soon as possible using body core rotation where the arm is extended and moves only when the body rotates. (2) Start the weight swinging as soon as possible using your hand/forearm and letting your body react however it wants to. Now try the same as above but hold the string in your non-dominant hand. Hint: To create a 'swing' the string must be taught with 'stretch tension', and the circular arc that the hand path makes must be wide. 

 

Question: Which method (1 or 2) was the better choice to get the weight started swinging on the end of the string as soon as possible? 

 

Tip: When swinging a weight in a circular arc; the harder you pull [in-line, longitudinally, telescopically] on the string the faster the weight swings. The same exact phenomenon applies when pulling on the clubshaft of a golf club during the downswing!  Stretch the shaft!   

 

Golf Club test: With a mid-iron, hold the club first with just one hand, and then just the other hand, and then with both hands as you do the test. Again, you have two methods to use but due to the clubshaft being rigid you must envision and treat the shaft as if it was very flexible like a string: (1) Start the downswing using body core rotation where the arm is extended and moves only when the body rotates. (2) Start the downswing using your hand/forearm and letting your body react however it wants to. Hint: Exactly like when swinging a weight on the end of a string - to create a golf 'swing' the clubshaft must have 'stretch tension', and the circular arc that the hand path makes must be wide.    

 

 Question: Which method (1 or 2) was the better choice to get the golf club started swinging?  

 

► Note: Most people find the better choice to be #2 - using the hand/forearm to start the weight on the end of a string swinging, as well as to start the downswing of a golf swing.

 

Assertion: To create a swinging action using the hand/forearm method it is both helpful, and can be very important for most people, that the very first move of the clubshaft be in a straight line for a brief distance before the hand path begins moving in a [wide] circular arc. (This first move is the 'pull an arrow from the quiver' move that has been around for many years. It is easily performed when the golfer uses his hand/forearm to start the downswing. However, as you can probably imagine, when the golfer uses his body core rotation (where the arm is extended and really only moves when the body rotates) this initial move of the clubshaft in a straight line is not possible...and the golfer's body rotation bears the full burden of getting the club to 'swing' without that first helpful move.     

 

 

 

Edited March 18, 2021 by Nail_It
grammar

[GreatStrike]

Words of wisdom:

Good players have a clear concept in their mind's eye of what they want to do with their body and the golf club before they swing. I suggest focusing on what to do with the club, not on how to move the body. 

 

The topics most discussed in this thread is about what to do with the club, yet virtually every struggling golfer seeks help with how to move their body. Think about that! 

 

 

Edited March 19, 2021 by Nail_It
grammar

[GreatStrike]

On 3/18/2021 at 9:26 AM, Nail_It said:

 

I think DeChambeau definitely 'swings'. I think he just wanted to get bigger and stronger so he could 'swing' faster - much like a teenager gets bigger and stronger as he becomes an adult. 

 

You can see that Bryson DeChambeau pulls on the clubshaft in-line (longitudinally) in the direction the shaft is pointing and his shaft is nicely on-plane. Plus, his downswing hand path is very wide which is a good indicator of someone who is 'swinging' the club by keeping the string shaft taught with 'stretch tension'.  

 

Take a look at this Cobra driver commercial (video below), justly named 'A Physics Lesson', where Bryson DeChambeau displays the three characteristics that have been discussed here recently; (1) pulling the clubshaft in-line (longitudinally) in the direction the shaft is pointing, (2) his downswing hand path starts moving rearward away from the target, and (3) his hand path maintains a very wide downswing circular arc.

 

► https://www.ispot.tv/ad/tHnv/cobra-golf-radspeed-driver-a-physics-lesson

 

 

First move is a pull on the clubshaft perfectly in-line (longitudinally) rearward, away from the target to get swing started in wide arc. 

 

Maintaining a wide downswing circular arc and continue to pull on the handle in the direction the clubshaft is pointing through about P5.5.

 

Once about P5.5 is reached the swing has a life of its own and all you need to do is hold on and 'let it ride'. The release will happen naturally as the hand path moves into a smaller radius and the golf club's design will naturally square-up the clubface without any manipulation. Any additional attempt beyond P5.5 to add speed will disrupt the swinging action, causing an abrupt decrease in clubhead speed and leaving the clubface open.  

 

 

Lastly, there should be no question about how wrist c0ck is naturally and easily sustained when you apply a pulling force in-line on the clubshaft in the direction it is pointing for the first half of the downswing. Also, when the clubshaft is pointing at the target at the top of the backswing and you pull on the clubshaft in-line (longitudinally) as if to 'stretch the shaft' by using your hand/forearm there is no way you can come over-the-top. A come over-the-top move happens when you either unwind the upper torso or you intend to apply a side force to the clubshaft. Focus on what to do with the club, not how to move the body...   

 

 

 

Edited April 4, 2021 by Nail_It
add images

[GreatStrike]

Steve - Thanks for the message and the nice words. I'll respond to your question about 'early extension and wanting to use the shaft to drive the clubhead at the ball' here on the thread so maybe others might benefit too. 

 

Most amateurs are obsessed with the clubhead out at the end of the clubshaft. They know that the clubhead must be used to hit the ball. This is why most all handicap golfers feel the need to use the rigid clubshaft as a means to drive the clubhead at the golf ball by applying side force and using the rigid shaft as a leverage tool. This is how a lumberjack uses his axe to chop wood, which is a 'hitting' protocol, definitely not a swing.

 

The golf club was designed hundreds of years ago to be swung, not for its rigid clubshaft to be used as an apparatus or a means to drive the clubhead at the golf ball. A 'swinging' protocol is still just as applicable today, but rarely understood or accepted by amateur golfers.  

 

Swing energy is the key to harnessing effortless power and requires no assistance by the golfer soon after getting the swing started. Learning to position the natural swinging energy in the swing is what technique is all about. If you don't understand what a swing is and you can't feel what it is, you will always struggle. 

 

The golf club's center of mass (CoM) or center of gravity is its balance point, where the club balances when placed horizontally on your finger. This point is up from the clubhead a matter of inches. While the club is balanced on your finger, pushing the handle in one direction causes the clubhead to move in the opposite direction...and visa-versa. When this happens during a golf swing the club is NOT swinging which means there is zero natural acceleration. Anytime you employ a 'pushing' force against the side of the shaft the club responds by trying to rotate around its balance point. Once you do this, you don't have a swing. The only way to hit the ball is to muscle it through impact. This is a physically uncomfortable swing move and is highly inconsistent at best. The counter to this problem is (of course) to pull on the clubshaft in-line in the direction the shaft is pointing instead of applying force to the side of the clubshaft. But, there's also a way to help overcome the fixation and obsession of the clubhead.

 

To make matters easier for anyone trying to get out of their habit of using the golf club's rigid shaft as a 'hitting' apparatus to drive the clubhead at the golf ball - it may be helpful to re-imagine (conceptualize) where the golf club's center of mass (CoM) is located. If we add the weight of a golfer hands to the golf club the CoM moves up the shaft very close to the handle (grip). Why should we consider this? Because essentially the hands/fingers should be considered more a part of the golf club since they are basically only clamps. Repositioning the CoM (at least in your mind) now makes it easier (hopefully) to get your mind off the clubhead and focus more on what you need to do with the clubshaft - which (of course) is to pull it in-line, longitudinally in the direction it is pointing until about P5.5. If you can get the idea that your hands are part of the club then you can hopefully take the hands out of the golf swing.  

 

Once your focus is primarily on making a perfect golf swing by pulling on the shaft in-line until about P5.5 (without a golf ball) and seeing where the clubhead scraps the turf, then you are off to the races for much better things to happen! Make your perfect golf swing and let that clubhead run into the golf ball where you know your clubhead scraps the turf. In other words, take the focus off that menacing clubhead that you've been so obsessed with and put the focus on making a perfect golf 'swing' and letting the result of that perfect swing run the clubhead into the golf ball. It doesn't get any better than that! 

 

I hope that helps...        

[GreatStrike]

Larry asks; Is there a way to aim when swinging a golf club like there is with archery or shooting a rifle? I align my feet, hips and shoulders and the club face but I can't ever really count on my shots being hit solid or accurate.   

 

Larry - You bet there is!

 

Most amateur golfers try to align their body properly, but they largely depend on where their clubface is pointing at impact in hopes the ball goes at their target. And, some may even say they add a degree of club path angle to their scheme. Is there a better way? I think so. Why not take aim with your clubshaft?

 

We've been discussing how in the backswing the clubshaft should point at your target 'if' you take the club to parallel with the ground. In other words, the shaft should not be 'laid off' pointing well to the left of the target or 'across the line' pointing well to the right of the target at the top of the backswing - it should be pointing at or slightly parallel left of the target for a right-hand golfer.  That said, if you don't take the club all the way to parallel with the ground, or if you are playing a part ½ or ¾ shot, that is perfectly okay as long as the shaft would point at the target 'if' you did take it all the way to parallel. Well, where your clubshaft points is your aiming apparatus! Problem is - your clubshaft at the top of your backswing is out of sight - you can't see it! This is where your mind's eye and your visualization comes into play. Just as important as each time you hit a shot you should have a good visualization beforehand of your ball flight and how the ball will respond and travel toward its planned destination. 

 

Most golfers are able to achieve excellent 'aiming' of their clubshaft with minimal practice and help. Then, like we've been discussing, it's a matter of pulling on the clubshaft perfectly in-line without any side force that will knock the shaft off its perfect aim. When you align your clubface, and aim the clubshaft at your target in the backswing and then 'stretch the shaft' in-line, pulling it perfectly longitudinally during the downswing it is just like taking dead aim with a rifle and scope, and squeezing off shots at your target and hitting it every time. Your body alignment doesn't have to be perfect - your body parts (e.g. elbows, hips, shoulders) don't have to be aligned perfectly. It all boils down to what you do with the club, not on how to move the body. Your ability to aim the clubshaft at your target in the backswing, and your know-how and skill to pull perfectly in-line in the direction your clubshaft is pointing without any side force applied to the handle in the downswing until P5.5, is all you need to have a beautiful, powerful, accurate, consistent, repeating and dependable golf swing that you can be very proud of.    

 

              

Edited March 21, 2021 by Nail_It

[GreatStrike]

On 3/20/2021 at 1:36 PM, Nail_It said:

Steve - Thanks for the message and the nice words. I'll respond to your question about 'early extension and wanting to use the shaft to drive the clubhead at the ball' here on the thread so maybe others might benefit too. 

 

Most amateurs are obsessed with the clubhead out at the end of the clubshaft. They know that the clubhead must be used to hit the ball. This is why most all handicap golfers feel the need to use the rigid clubshaft as a means to drive the clubhead at the golf ball by applying side force and using the rigid shaft as a leverage tool. This is how a lumberjack uses his axe to chop wood, which is a 'hitting' protocol, definitely not a swing.

 

The golf club was designed hundreds of years ago to be swung, not for its rigid clubshaft to be used as an apparatus or a means to drive the clubhead at the golf ball. A 'swinging' protocol is still just as applicable today, but rarely understood or accepted by amateur golfers.  

 

Swing energy is the key to harnessing effortless power and requires no assistance by the golfer soon after getting the swing started. Learning to position the natural swinging energy in the swing is what technique is all about. If you don't understand what a swing is and you can't feel what it is, you will always struggle. 

 

The golf club's center of mass (CoM) or center of gravity is its balance point, where the club balances when placed horizontally on your finger. This point is up from the clubhead a matter of inches. While the club is balanced on your finger, pushing the handle in one direction causes the clubhead to move in the opposite direction...and visa-versa. When this happens during a golf swing the club is NOT swinging which means there is zero natural acceleration. Anytime you employ a 'pushing' force against the side of the shaft the club responds by trying to rotate around its balance point. Once you do this, you don't have a swing. The only way to hit the ball is to muscle it through impact. This is a physically uncomfortable swing move and is highly inconsistent at best. The counter to this problem is (of course) to pull on the clubshaft in-line in the direction the shaft is pointing instead of applying force to the side of the clubshaft. But, there's also a way to help overcome the fixation and obsession of the clubhead.

 

To make matters easier for anyone trying to get out of their habit of using the golf club's rigid shaft as a 'hitting' apparatus to drive the clubhead at the golf ball - it may be helpful to re-imagine (conceptualize) where the golf club's center of mass (CoM) is located. If we add the weight of a golfer hands to the golf club the CoM moves up the shaft very close to the handle (grip). Why should we consider this? Because essentially the hands/fingers should be considered more a part of the golf club since they are basically only clamps. Repositioning the CoM (at least in your mind) now makes it easier (hopefully) to get your mind off the clubhead and focus more on what you need to do with the clubshaft - which (of course) is to pull it in-line, longitudinally in the direction it is pointing until about P5.5. If you can get the idea that your hands are part of the club then you can hopefully take the hands out of the golf swing.  

 

Once your focus is primarily on making a perfect golf swing by pulling on the shaft in-line until about P5.5 (without a golf ball) and seeing where the clubhead scraps the turf, then you are off to the races for much better things to happen! Make your perfect golf swing and let that clubhead run into the golf ball where you know your clubhead scraps the turf. In other words, take the focus off that menacing clubhead that you've been so obsessed with and put the focus on making a perfect golf 'swing' and letting the result of that perfect swing run the clubhead into the golf ball. It doesn't get any better than that! 

 

I hope that helps...        

 

Steve - To make myself more clear. During the golf swing you want to delay the golf club from rotating about its center of mass until late in the swing. We know that with how a golf club is designed and weighted, it is very important for the golfer to control its balance point (CoM), because if you don't control it - it will control you! What do I mean by that? You control the club's balance point or its center of mass by 'what you do with the club', not how you move your body. 

 

As mentioned previously in the prior post; when the club is balanced on your finger, pushing the handle in one direction causes the clubhead to move in the opposite direction...and visa-versa. When this happens during a golf swing the club is NOT 'swinging'. That same knowledge is extremely applicable for when a golfer makes a golf swing, because we know that applying a side force to the handle [likewise] causes the clubhead to move in the opposite direction. So, when a golfer applies side force on the handle - because the golfer is trying to drive the clubhead at the golf ball - the golf club starts rotating about its CoM and the clubhead kicks out and the golfer experiences early extension. What takes place is really just that simple! 

 

So, the question becomes - how do good players control the club's balance point (CoM) during their golf swing to prevent their golf club from rotating too early about its CoM? The trick is actually quite simple - not to apply any side force to the handle of the club - and for that to happen means that the golfer must pull in-line on the clubshaft longitudinally in the direction the clubshaft is pointing from the very start of the downswing. The most critical place in which you must not apply a force to the side of the shaft (handle/grip) is at the very start of the downswing because that is where the clubshaft is most sensitive or vulnerable to the damaging force. The more precise the clubshaft is pulled in-line or longitudinally, the more pure the golf 'swing'.  

 

 

 

[GreatStrike]

I wrote the following in another thread and was recently asked by Rick who sent me a PM if what I meant by it is the same as 'swinging left'. The answer is 'yes'...and with a combination dose of 'pulling up' (parametric acceleration) added to the 'swinging left' it can change a sour swing into a sound swing in a matter of minutes...and that goes for chipping too.   

 

One of the most (maybe the most) difficult things for most golfers to comprehend is that golf is a game played in the midst of circles - lots of circles. A golfer's shoulder turn, hip turn, hand path, club path, the golf ball, the cup - everything is a circle or an arc. Yet most amateur golfers want to move their hands and/or the golf club in a direct or straight-'ish' line, which destroys the almost effortless power that centripetal↔centrifugal forces provide when swinging something in orbit about a circle. 

 

It's amazing how many amateur golfers achieve a decent circular hand path and circular club path in their backswing, yet in the downswing they make a straight bee-line to the ball with their hand path, which eliminates the 'stretch tension' required of a 'swing' and thus destroys the 'swing'...not to mention making their hand path very narrow instead of nice and wide. 

 

Even when amateur golfers' backswings and downswings are reasonably circular and on-plane they oftentimes tend not to continue the circular hand path that [should] bring the hands and club back to the inside through the impact zone and the early follow-through. In other words the hand path moves directly toward the target...usually with a lot of muscular forearm/hand manipulation in an attempt to make contact with the ball or save the shot from going way off target. When this happens the centripetal↔centrifugal forces are destroyed and there is an early release dumping the club into the ground prior to the ball, loss of clubhead speed, open clubface, flipping and loss of stable clubface control. The easy fix which is often overlooked is for the golfer to learn to continue moving his hand path in a circle - instead of toward the target in the impact zone. If you wanted to keep a weight swinging around on the end of a string you would keep it swinging in a circle - you wouldn't suddenly allow your hand to stray off its circular path. 

 

The recent advice to pull the club hard left probably helped some golfers overcome this problem to some extent, and the recent advice to 'pull up and in' prior to impact (which added some parametric acceleration) also likely helped some golfers to overcome their habit of not continuing their hand path in a circle and back to the inside. It should be noted that you need to have good circles in your golf swing, and make the best use of them requires a combination of good body rotation and a good arm swing. It is what the golfer wants to do with his golf club that is paramount - not the position of body parts or how he moves various body parts - but what he wants to do with his club. If a golfer intends to do something that is incorrect, chances are he will be successful at doing it and not be happy with the results. Likewise, when a golfer comprehends something that he previously has misunderstood or didn't quite understand its effects, a golf swing can go from sour to sound almost immediately.    

 

Quite often golfers don't visualize their hand path in particular should follow a circular path that must continue beyond impact. An example of how a golfer can form an incorrect concept about something can be seen with Ben Hogan's book Five Lessons and the pane of glass drawing he used to explain the swing plane. Many golfers look at this drawing of the flat (straight) pane of glass that is aligned on the target line and laying on Hogan's shoulders with a hole in it for his head - and they readily understand the golf swing's inclined plane (and how the hands and club should not move up and break the glass) and that at address the hands are slightly inside of the glass, etc., etc. But, it is not unusual at all for many golfers to look at this flat, straight pane of glass and visualize that their hands are supposed to swing on that same plane - they interpret in their mind that their hand path should follow a path parallel and inside of this flat pane of glass which has its edge laying on the target line. For many people that perception makes perfect sense - to move the hands and the clubhead along a straight line, parallel with the target line, directly at the ball and straight through to your target. But moving the hands in a circle - aligned with that pane of glass - doesn't bring the hands back to the inside! When this happens the hand path is often only marginally circular and usually directed at (or slightly parallel left of) the target at the most important part of the swing - through the impact zone. Instead of the hand path continuing to swing in a circle and moving sharply back inside the target line during impact and post-impact, the hands are allowed to come off the circular path and move out toward the target. When the latter happens you lose the centripetal↔centrifugal forces that are so important to sustain clubhead speed and maintain control of the clubhead. When the hand path is retained in a circular path and swung back to the inside (a.k.a. 'swinging left') the centripetal↔centrifugal forces sustain the clubhead speed and maintain stable control of the clubhead. Exactly like swinging a weight around on the end of a string, there will be a strong pulling force that must be countered to keep it going in a circle. That feel of force is your friend! But you must counter it to use it to your advantage.     

 

I have had golfers tell me that when the ball is above their feet they always seem to make a better swing and really compress the golf ball. Likely the reason for this can be traced back to the fact with the ball above the feet the golfer's hand path is swinging in a circle more in front of them and around them beyond impact. Also, with the hand path slightly more horizontal - resembling  more like a baseball swing - the circle in which the hands swing is easier to obtain, accept and maintain. In addition, when the golfer knows that his hand path will be more horizontal and in front of him, he also recognizes he must counter the outward moving force and bring the hands and club back around to the inside, which to his liking naturally sustains clubhead speed and maintains stable control of the clubhead through the impact zone.          

 

The 2nd image below is an example that often gives golfers the belief that their hand path need not be circular out in front of their body (especially through impact), but instead should be straight-ish along the target line. Envisioning the hand path to cover a circle on the ground outside each foot can help...especially if you know that you don't continue to swing the hands left through and beyond impact.

 

I believe all golfers would be much better off to perceive everything about the golf swing to be relative to circles and arcs...and nothing straight. That includes the notion that to hit a (a) round ball and have it fly STRAIGHT (b) when swinging a golf club in a circular arc (c) that has its clubhead mounted offset on one side of the shaft (d) on an inclined plane in which (e) the clubhead only touches the target line for a very small distance in which (f) the clubface needs to be aligned practically square in which (g) the golf club at a particular point in time rotates about its center of mass...requires that the golfer comprehend that golf is a game played in the midst of circles - lots of circles...and not try to reshape them into straight lines! 

       

 

           

 

 

 

Edited April 2, 2021 by Nail_It
grammar

[GreatStrike]

Yes Rick, 'swinging left' is really just keeping the hand path moving in a circle well beyond impact. Focus on [trying to overdo] making sure that your hand path forms a small diameter circle out in front of your waist and make sure your hands move back to the inside on the small circle beginning deep in the downswing 'prior to impact'. You'll quickly find out how a true centripetal↔centrifugal force 'swing' works so nicely to provide increasing clubhead speed, easy shaft lean, a stable clubhead control, maximum compression, and a tremendous trajectory with minimal curve. 

 

You'll likely need to get used to some different feels and intentions. You probably don't currently try to counter the strong outward pulling forces that you'll now feel in your hands as your hand path 'continues' moving in a small diameter circle around your waist. (Think of how a hammer thrower must counter the strong outward pulling forces he generates and how he keeps his hand path in a circle in order to sustain the increasing velocity.) Your job will be to make sure that your hands are not allowed to move off the small diameter circle until well past impact (which if your hands are allowed to come off the circle your hands and club would move target-ward through the impact zone and lose both speed and clubhead control, and likely produce an wide open clubface). Your job will also be to really key on your hand path and making sure it moves back to the inside on a small diameter circular path just to the outside of your left foot. Yes, think of the circle diameter being that small! If anything you'll want to overdo how small the hand path circle is. 

 

When practicing, I recommend playing a game with yourself to see just how good you can get playing the 'circle game' - by hitting the ball straight while moving your hand path in a small diameter circle and swinging the golf club in a circle. Because that is exactly how a sound golf swing is supposed to be made! Shhh! Don't tell anyone! 

 

 

 

 

        

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 4, 2021 by Nail_It
grammar

[GreatStrike]

On 11/28/2020 at 11:48 PM, berndgeurts said:

Lots of great posts here. Loving the detailed analysis of the swing.

 

I personally think that if you have someone with a bad swing a baseball bat and let him swing a golf ball a few times at knee height. He will feel the throwing motion and maybe take it to a golf swing.

 

I personally think that the concept of throwing a club side on to a ball (like baseball), instead thinking of taking a club up and hitting down (classic golfers fault), could improve 90% of all golfers.

 

 

 

 

[hoganfan924]

In TGM terms, I've always been more of an angled hinger (throw) than a horizontal hinger (twist), but I don't actively cup my left wrist in the follow through.

[GreatStrike]

On 4/5/2021 at 2:04 PM, hoganfan924 said:

In TGM terms, I've always been more of an angled hinger (throw) than a horizontal hinger (twist), but I don't actively cup my left wrist in the follow through.

 

Interesting topic...and I believe related to what some refer to as a centrifugal force golf swing versus a centripetal force golf swing (the centripetal golf swing is also known as 'swinging left' and 'exit left'). I'm not a TGM (The Golfing Machine) follower, but I think the angled and horizontal lead wrist hinge conditions used in TGM have a lot to do with what a golfer does in his/her golf swing from a point just prior to impact to the mid-follow-through by using either a centrifugal force golf swing or a centripetal force golf swing.  

 

In my view a centrifugal force golf swing is every bit as much a 'swinging' golf swing as a centripetal force golf swing, but with the former the golfer doesn't attempt to keep his hand path moving on its circular arc through the impact zone. Instead, the hands move off the hand path circle and out toward the target - therefore the golfer with a centrifugal force swing (in my opinion) will likely have an angled hinge lead wrist...and with such a golf swing the golfer has a lot to deal with through the impact zone as opposed to the golfer that uses a centripetal force golf swing with a horizontal hinge lead wrist.

 

As mentioned, with a centrifugal force golf swing the golfer doesn't attempt to keep his hand path moving on its circular arc through the impact zone, but allows his hands to move off the hand path circle and out toward the target, so he must manipulate not only his clubhead path (which is naturally moving outward to the right and very likely to the outside of the target line) but also his clubface (which is naturally opening). This can be perceived the same as swinging a weight around on the end of a string and instead of continuing to move the hands in a circular path the hands are allowed to come off the curved path and takes off on a tangent (which stops the acceleration that swinging on a curved path provided). When the hands move off the circular path late in the downswing they move off on a tangent that is out-and-away, or moving in a direction to the right or on the outside of the target line. And this requires that the golfer must use manipulations (plural) to deal with this - the clubhead path going astray and the clubface direction opening. Timing the exacting muscular manipulation within a split second timeframe is critical - something amateur golfers aren't able to control with any consistency.   

 

With a centrifugal force golf swing (hand path coming off the circular arc) the golfer has to deal with a less stable clubhead, a clubhead that will be moving out-and-away, and clubface that will tend to be opening due to its design. This 'out-and-away' movement of both the hands and the club coming off the circular hand path will tend to give the golfer an angled hinge of the lead wrist.

 

Typically, a golfer that has trouble acquiring a decent golf swing almost always [either] doesn't know to counter the outward moving forces felt in the hands (i.e. hammer thrower) or they think the hand path is supposed to be parallel along the target line. They do not realize the hand path should be a rather small diameter circle formed on an inclined arc around the waist. Instead, they allow the centrifugal force (if the hands do move in a circular arc) to pull their hands toward the target when they should be 'swinging left' or 'exiting left' to have their hands stay on the circular path and move sharply left just outside their left foot. The other problem most amateurs have with their hand path is to purposely drive their hands (and the club) parallel down the target line.     

 

Conversely, with a centripetal force golf swing the golfer purposely keeps and maintains his hand path moving on its circular arc through the impact zone, and the golfer will likely have a horizontal hinged lead wrist. This golfer counters the outward↔inward (centrifugal↔centripetal) pulling force by keeping the hand path in a circular arc - thus the term 'swinging left' or 'exit left'. This 'swinging left' action can be perceived the same as swinging a weight around on the end of a string and purposely keeping the hands moving in a circle, which does a lot of very favorable things in the golf swing. For example, it sustains or increases the orbital velocity and force through impact, it retains 'stretch tension' on the clubshaft (which is a 'swinging' element), the stability of the clubhead is naturally preserved, the clubhead touches the target line from the inside but doesn't move out-and-away to the outside of the target line, the clubface tends to be square at impact without intentional manipulation needed, and shaft lean is a natural by-product of a centripetal force golf swing (a.k.a. swinging left or exit left). Lot's of good things happen with this type of golf swing and it's a very simple difference and an easy adjustment to make. Further, both of these swing methods can be used by a golfer based on the circumstances he or she faces - such as flop shots and greenside bunker shots can incorporate a centrifugal force (angled hinge) swing, and full shots can incorporate a centripetal force (horizontal hinge) swing. Better players use both methods all the time whereas handicap golfers tend to use only what they know (or don't know) - which more than likely will be the centrifugal force swing.      

 

Most amateur golfers will have a golf swing where their hand path comes off the circular rail (e.g. centrifugal force golf swing), whereas it's more typical for low handicap golfers with sound golf swings to incorporate a centripetal force golf swing for full swings where their hand path keeps on the circular rail. Both methods of course have been used successfully, but the centrifugal force golf swing requires precise muscular manipulation timing. 

 

 

Rickie Fowler (shown below) is an example of a tour pro that uses a centrifugal force type golf swing where his hand path moves off his hand path circular arc through impact and moves out-and-away target-ward, which produces an angular hinged lead wrist. Muscular manipulation and precise timing are characteristics needed to play well. Whoever came up with the 2nd image below that says 'Incorrect' must have a very firm opinion about it! 

 

  

 

 

 

Jon Rahm (shown below) is an example of a tour pro that uses a centripetal force golf swing (a.k.a. 'swinging left' or 'exist left') where the hand path keeps on the hand path's circular arc through impact and produces a horizontal hinged lead wrist.

 

    

 

 

 

Most golfers have seen the Iron Byron or PING Man golf swing robots. I suspect many (probably most) golfers retain a visual image of the robot's swing arm traveling in a single [flat] plane. A human golfer swings the golf club around him in a circle and his hand path is also circular, not a single flat plane. Yet most amateurs try to make their hand path like a robot and they tend to move or throw their hands and clubhead out toward the target instead of swinging the hands and clubhead on a circular arc and back to the inside. 2D images, videos and television of the tour pros also disguise the fact that the hand path is circular and not straight.     

 

   

 

 

 

 

Edited April 8, 2021 by Nail_It
grammar

[GreatStrike]

Bret - Thanks!

 

I'm glad the posts about 'swinging left' gave you an ah-ha moment that really hit a homerun for you and made perfect sense to correct your swing aliments. Proving it to yourself on the range and seeing immediate results is always a thrill.

 

Chipping by 'swinging left' is also the way to go!  

 

Correct - you should try putting on an arc and allow the face to naturally rotate. 

 

Glad I could help with the posts...

 

  

 

 

PS - Yes, I see that this thread has 1,200,000 views! That's pretty amazing...

 

 

 

Edited April 7, 2021 by Nail_It
Added a PS

[hoganfan924]

On 4/5/2021 at 6:10 PM, Nail_It said:

 

Interesting topic...and I believe related to what some refer to as a centrifugal force golf swing versus a centripetal force golf swing (the centripetal golf swing is also known as 'swinging left' and 'exit left'). I'm not a TGM (The Golfing Machine) follower, but I think the angled and horizontal lead wrist hinge conditions used in TGM have a lot to do with what a golfer does in his/her golf swing from a point just prior to impact to the mid-follow-through by using either a centrifugal force golf swing or a centripetal force golf swing.  

 

In my view a centrifugal force golf swing is every bit as much a 'swinging' golf swing as a centripetal force golf swing, but with the former the golfer doesn't attempt to keep his hand path moving on its circular arc through the impact zone. Instead, the hands move off the hand path circle and out toward the target - therefore the golfer with a centrifugal force swing (in my opinion) will likely have an angled hinge lead wrist...and with such a golf swing the golfer has a lot to deal with through the impact zone as opposed to the golfer that uses a centripetal force golf swing with a horizontal hinge lead wrist.

 

As mentioned, with a centrifugal force golf swing the golfer doesn't attempt to keep his hand path moving on its circular arc through the impact zone, but allows his hands to move off the hand path circle and out toward the target, so he must manipulate not only his clubhead path (which is naturally moving outward to the right and very likely to the outside of the target line) but also his clubface (which is naturally opening). This can be perceived the same as swinging a weight around on the end of a string and instead of continuing to move the hands in a circular path the hands are allowed to come off the curved path and takes off on a tangent (which stops the acceleration that swinging on a curved path provided). When the hands move off the circular path late in the downswing they move off on a tangent that is out-and-away, or moving in a direction to the right or on the outside of the target line. And this requires that the golfer must use manipulations (plural) to deal with this - the clubhead path going astray and the clubface direction opening. Timing the exacting muscular manipulation within a split second timeframe is critical - something amateur golfers aren't able to control with any consistency.   

 

With a centrifugal force golf swing (hand path coming off the circular arc) the golfer has to deal with a less stable clubhead, a clubhead that will be moving out-and-away, and clubface that will tend to be opening due to its design. This 'out-and-away' movement of both the hands and the club coming off the circular hand path will tend to give the golfer an angled hinge of the lead wrist.

 

Typically, a golfer that has trouble acquiring a decent golf swing almost always [either] doesn't know to counter the outward moving forces felt in the hands (i.e. hammer thrower) or they think the hand path is supposed to be parallel along the target line. They do not realize the hand path should be a rather small diameter circle formed on an inclined arc around the waist. Instead, they allow the centrifugal force (if the hands do move in a circular arc) to pull their hands toward the target when they should be 'swinging left' or 'exiting left' to have their hands stay on the circular path and move sharply left just outside their left foot. The other problem most amateurs have with their hand path is to purposely drive their hands (and the club) parallel down the target line.     

 

Conversely, with a centripetal force golf swing the golfer purposely keeps and maintains his hand path moving on its circular arc through the impact zone, and the golfer will likely have a horizontal hinged lead wrist. This golfer counters the outward↔inward (centrifugal↔centripetal) pulling force by keeping the hand path in a circular arc - thus the term 'swinging left' or 'exit left'. This 'swinging left' action can be perceived the same as swinging a weight around on the end of a string and purposely keeping the hands moving in a circle, which does a lot of very favorable things in the golf swing. For example, it sustains or increases the orbital velocity and force through impact, it retains 'stretch tension' on the clubshaft (which is a 'swinging' element), the stability of the clubhead is naturally preserved, the clubhead touches the target line from the inside but doesn't move out-and-away to the outside of the target line, the clubface tends to be square at impact without intentional manipulation needed, and shaft lean is a natural by-product of a centripetal force golf swing (a.k.a. swinging left or exit left). Lot's of good things happen with this type of golf swing and it's a very simple difference and an easy adjustment to make. Further, both of these swing methods can be used by a golfer based on the circumstances he or she faces - such as flop shots and greenside bunker shots can incorporate a centrifugal force (angled hinge) swing, and full shots can incorporate a centripetal force (horizontal hinge) swing. Better players use both methods all the time whereas handicap golfers tend to use only what they know (or don't know) - which more than likely will be the centrifugal force swing.      

 

Most amateur golfers will have a golf swing where their hand path comes off the circular rail (e.g. centrifugal force golf swing), whereas it's more typical for low handicap golfers with sound golf swings to incorporate a centripetal force golf swing for full swings where their hand path keeps on the circular rail. Both methods of course have been used successfully, but the centrifugal force golf swing requires precise muscular manipulation timing. 

 

 

Rickie Fowler (shown below) is an example of a tour pro that uses a centrifugal force type golf swing where his hand path moves off his hand path circular arc through impact and moves out-and-away target-ward, which produces an angular hinged lead wrist. Muscular manipulation and precise timing are characteristics needed to play well. Whoever came up with the 2nd image below that says 'Incorrect' must have a very firm opinion about it! 

 

  

 

 

Jon Rahm (shown below) is an example of a tour pro that uses a centripetal force golf swing (a.k.a. 'swinging left' or 'exist left') where the hand path keeps on the hand path's circular arc through impact and produces a horizontal hinged lead wrist.

 

    

 

 

Most golfers have seen the Iron Byron or PING Man golf swing robots. I suspect many (probably most) golfers retain a visual image of the robot's swing arm traveling in a single [flat] plane. A human golfer swings the golf club around him in a circle and his hand path is also circular, not a single flat plane. Yet most amateurs try to make their hand path like a robot and they tend to move or throw their hands and clubhead out toward the target instead of swinging the hands and clubhead on a circular arc and back to the inside. 2D images, videos and television of the tour pros also disguise the fact that the hand path is circular and not straight.     

 

   

 

 

 

 

I've always been a "MORAD Cp" releaser.  Also been a student of Geoff Jones' since 2007, and it's what he teaches (he's been teaching it probably for 30 years and arrived at it completely independently of O'grady).  Here's a clip from the webinar he did for Ralph Perez of "Gotham Golf Blog" about 10 years ago, talking about it:

 

[GreatStrike]

1 hour ago, NotThatGuyorAmI? said:

Looks to me that if this fellow, reputed to be a pretty good golfer, pulled the handle in the direction the shaft is pointed, he would miss the ball by a foot or so.

 

 

A fraction of a second after those pictures you posted were taken something tells me 'this fellow' changes the position of his shaft in his early downswing and his shaft then points well inside the target line and is nicely aimed slightly parallel left of his target.

 

 

 

Edited April 7, 2021 by Nail_It

[GreatStrike]

2 hours ago, hoganfan924 said:

I've always been a "MORAD Cp" releaser.  Also been a student of Geoff Jones' since 2007, and it's what he teaches (he's been teaching it probably for 30 years and arrived at it completely independently of O'grady).  Here's a clip from the webinar he did for Ralph Perez of "Gotham Golf Blog" about 10 years ago, talking about it:

 

 

hoganfan924 - Thank you for sharing this video. It wonderfully explains what 'swinging left' or 'exit left' means. Everyone should watch it and let it sink in...

 

I do wish the video had explained the problems encountered when you don't 'swing left' and the results of which must be dealt with using muscular manipulation and precise timing. Likewise, I wish the video had explained all the good things that 'swinging left' automatically takes care of that the typical amateur golfer lacks, which they are always looking to fix in their swing but they seem to look in all the wrong places.   

 

It's amazing how many amateur golfers allow their hand path (and the club's corresponding path) to move toward the target instead of countering the centripetal↔centrifugal force to keep the club's handle moving on the hand path's circular arc through the impact zone to around the midway point of the follow-through. I think some amateurs probably think the outward pulling force (like a hammer thrower deals with) should not be countered and thus they literally 'allow' their hand path (and the club's corresponding path) to move toward the target, while other amateurs intentionally use muscular force to move their hand path (and club) toward the target. Neither of which is a good choice in my opinion and causes all sorts of swing problems.      

 

 

Edited April 7, 2021 by Nail_It
grammar

[GreatStrike]

19 hours ago, hoganfan924 said:

I've always been a "MORAD Cp" releaser.  Also been a student of Geoff Jones' since 2007, and it's what he teaches (he's been teaching it probably for 30 years and arrived at it completely independently of O'grady).  

 

 

I've been thinking about your comment, and I'm curious if you recall (from many years ago) whether you actually had to be taught to be a CP releaser or if that was what you had figured out yourself (possibly as a junior) was needed to best swing a club?

 

It is my belief that starting to play golf as a junior has many benefits, one being a junior can't muscularly manipulate a golf club which means they must learn to 'swing' the golf club. Another benefit is that most juniors are frequently given golf clubs that are too long and they typically grow into them before given the next set that is too long...and so on, and so forth. And with golf clubs that are too long, and a physical height that is usually short, the typical junior golfer has a natural circular hand path that swings 'around' themselves (and continues well into the follow-through)...whereas adults tend to want to drive their hands and club straight out toward the target at the beginning of the impact zone using muscular force, which prevents them from using powerful centripetal acceleration by keeping the hand path circular.  

 

 

Edited April 7, 2021 by Nail_It

[hoganfan924]

6 hours ago, Nail_It said:

 

I've been thinking about your comment, and I'm curious if you recall (from many years ago) whether you actually had to be taught to be a CP releaser or if that was what you had figured out yourself (possibly as a junior) was needed to best swing a club?

 

It is my belief that starting to play golf as a junior has many benefits, one being a junior can't muscularly manipulate a golf club which means they must learn to 'swing' the golf club. Another benefit is that most juniors are frequently given golf clubs that are too long and they typically grow into them before given the next set that is too long...and so on, and so forth. And with golf clubs that are too long, and a physical height that is usually short, the typical junior golfer has a natural circular hand path that swings 'around' themselves (and continues well into the follow-through)...whereas adults tend to want to drive their hands and club straight out toward the target at the beginning of the impact zone using muscular force, which prevents them from using powerful centripetal acceleration by keeping the hand path circular.  

 

 

Although I first swung a club at 12, I really didn't start playing until I was 19.   I haven't posted a swing on my youtube channel in several years, here's a couple from 2012, when I was swinging pretty well.  I went to a MORAD school in 2006, and was clearly the worst player there (both Chris Como and George Hunt (who Mac later certified as a MORAD instructor)), as well as several other PGA pros were there, but Mac was surprised when I could do his "Cp drill" well.  That's where he stands at your 8 o'clock and asks you to take a 1/2 swing and deliver the shaft into his hands (which would be placed at his shoulder width apart, and parallel to the target line).  This was simple for me, as it was my natural tendency.  I was 48 years old in this video, and hitting 165 yard 8 irons:

 

 

Edited April 8, 2021 by hoganfan924
added information

[GreatStrike]

11 minutes ago, hoganfan924 said:

Although I first swung a club at 12, I really didn't start playing until I was 19.   I haven't posted a swing on my youtube channel in several years, here's a couple from 2012, when I was swinging pretty well.  I went to a MORAD school in 2006, and was clearly the worst player there (both Chris Como and George Hunt (who Mac later certified as a MORAD instructor)), as well as several other PGA pros were there, but Mac was surprised when I could do his "Cp drill" well.  That's where he stands at your 8 o'clock and asks you to take a 1/2 swing and deliver the shaft into his hands (which would be placed at his shoulder width apart, and parallel to the target line).  This was simple for me, as it was my natural tendency.  I was 48 years old in this video, and hitting 165 yard 8 irons:

 

 

 

Looking good! Love the action and form through impact and early follow-through. 

[GreatStrike]

Dan - You are failing to understand that a golf swing is made up of multiple circles (full, partial & arcs), and the most important one for developing clubhead speed and consistent and repetitive accuracy in a golf swing is the circle you must move the club's handle on, which by the way is the same circle you move your hand path on. That hand path circle is what creates a huge centripetal force and is largely responsible for all the good things that happen in a sound golf swing - high clubhead speed, sweetspot contact, shaft lean, trapping the ball, compressing the ball, squaring the clubface, extreme repetitive contact for accuracy and ball flight, etc., etc. There's no way you can get that by moving the clubhead in a straight line through impact.   

 

You are under the impression that your hands should move the club's handle along the target line (from the trail foot to the lead foot) with the clubhead being force-thrown straight out toward the target. That shaped handle/hand path is not a circle! It's probably barely even a slight arc, and through the impact zone the handle and your hands are moving straight toward the target. It's powerless in comparison, and doesn't provide any of the desirable necessary ball-striking features to play good golf.  The handle/hand path must be in a circle, and a tight smallish diameter circle if you really want to capitalize on centripetal force. A big, wide, straight-ish hand path through the impact zone is a move that mid and high handicappers make - it's missing what is free for you to use - you just haven't been aware of what you needed to do. You can't move a weight in a straight line near as fast as you can move a weight swinging it in a circle. A golf club is designed to be swung in a circle - swing the handle in a circle around your mid-section and the clubhead will swing in an ellipsoidal shaped circle. The better you can get at hitting your golf ball to your target with the clubhead moving in a circular shape, the better golfer you will become. Golf is a game played amidst circles - forget 'straight' anything when it comes to using any of your 14 clubs, and that includes the putter which is swung on an arc. Watch the tour pros and try to grasp (even on 2D television) how they create and use centripetal force to swing their golf clubs - all through the bag from driver to the most delicate chips.

 

If you want to experiment at home in the yard to see how a centripetal swing is beneficial, just try it with chipping. It'll make a believer out of you and you won't be able to wait to try it with full swings for all your clubs. 'Exit Left', 'Swing Left', 'Stay on the Circle', 'Hit the Ball Straight by Swinging the Handle in a circle'.       

 

This TPI Facebook video (link below) will help you understand the handle/hand path circle I'm talking about. Also, look at some of my most recent posts and images. The circular hand path must be maintained well past impact...just like swinging a weight around on the end of a string, you keep the hand moving in a tight circle. It takes some strength to counter the force, but nothing like the strength a hammer thrower needs to counter his centripetal force. That circular hand path force you feel is powerful, and solid, and repeatable, and exactly what is needed to swing a golf club the best you can swing it.   

 

► TPI Centripetal Force Power

 

 

 

    

Edited April 12, 2021 by Nail_It
grammar

[GreatStrike]

Dan - Look at how your golf clubs are made. Stand them up and lean the grips against the wall. When the shafts are vertically straight all the clubheads are nowhere near correctly soled or aligned. Golf clubs are made (designed) so when the club [properly] strikes the golf ball the sole and bounce of the club are correctly aligned and the golf club's shaft is leaning well ahead of the clubhead. This should cause you to wonder how a golfer is supposed to make this happen when swinging a golf club.  

 

With the above in mind, think about what happens in two scenarios. The first scenario is to move the golf club basically straight along the target line in the impact zone using your physical muscular force, which 99.999% of those golfers will then have their club's shaft straight up-'n-down or vertical at impact (at best), or most likely they will flip the clubhead ahead of the shaft. This is what the typical handicap golfer does. The second scenario is to swing the golf club's handle on a circular path to make use of powerful centripetal force. When the golfer's hand path follows a circle the speed it produces comes very easy and is enormous due to using centripetal force in lieu of a straight line physical muscular force. But equally important is the way the clubhead is delivered through impact when the handle/hand path follows a circular track. Everything falls nicely into place...and everything starts making good sense! Straight equates to bad alignments and a poor outcome, whereas circular equates to good alignments and a wonderful outcome. 

 

Make no mistake about it, for most people (especially men) learning to make a sound golf swing doesn’t feel muscularly intuitive. The reason why is because a sound golf swing makes a circle. The clubhead opens and then closes and is, for most of its duration, not on the target line. Hence the panic experienced by your brain and the ill-considered signals it sends you in response. Besides understanding this dilemma there is a technique that is highly recommended that takes the focus off the clubhead and puts the focus in a much better place that is far easier to control - the hand path. We humans are capable of doing unbelievable things with our hands all the time, and we are quite excellent at controlling them with a high degree of precision even when moving at speed.       

 

Let's take a look at what using circles instead of straight lines can do for your golf swing. No longer is flipping an issue because when 'swinging left on the circle' then shaft lean becomes the norm. No longer is your 7-iron turned into an 8 or 9-iron loft through impact because when 'swinging left on the circle' you are striking the ball with effective dynamic loft or delofting the clubface. Clubhead and sole/bounce is properly oriented through impact because when 'swinging left on the circle' your golf clubs are [now] being used the way they were designed to interact and be used. No longer is an open clubface a troubling issue because when 'swinging left on the circle' the clubface naturally squares through impact. No longer is a weak glancing blow an issue because when 'swinging left on the circle' you are trapping and compressing the ball to the maximum. No longer does your golf ball hit the green and not stop because when 'swinging left on the circle' it gives the ball maximum spin. No longer is your ball flight weak, short and unable to fight the wind because when 'swinging left on the circle' your ball flight becomes piercing and able to penetrate the wind. Can't hit a low spinning wedge shot? No problem when you 'swing left on the circle'! Can't seem to chip with any consistency of ball height, spin and run? No problem when you 'swing left on the circle'! Have a tendency to hit fat shots or catch the sand first in fairway bunkers when you can't time your flip perfectly? No problem when you 'swing left on the circle'!

 

I cannot stress enough the importance for you to accept, understand and relish the fact that a sound golf swing is all about circles, semi-circles and arcs. Your intention should be to have your clubhead swing in a circular path. You control what the clubhead does by swinging the handle/hand path in a circular path. Let that sink in - it's your hand path that you want to control. That circular hand path is from the inside and back to the inside again, from pre-impact to post-impact. That in-turn makes the clubhead move in a larger circle from the inside - out to the target line (where the clubhead runs into the ball) - and back to the inside again. When you learn to do that you will drastically improve your golf swing and play much better golf.   

 

One last thing, Dan. Forget about where your different body parts are located at various points in your swing. You are thinking about things a**-backwards! The position of your trail elbow (for example) is in the positions during your swing because of 'where' and 'how' you are swinging the golf club. By trying to place your elbow (for example) in a particular position - at a particular point in time - is not going to cause you to swing the club differently. To do that you need to change your intention of 'where' and 'how' you swing the golf club. If you will swing the club as it was meant to be swung (using circles, semi-circular paths and arcs) your body parts will be in the correct positions.      

 

► Swing in a Circle - From the Inside to the Target Line and Back to the Inside Again

 

 

                 

Edited April 12, 2021 by Nail_It

[GreatStrike]

Here are some videos related to 'swinging left' or 'exiting left' to help you understand how the handle/hand path moves around the corner to the left. This starts happening before the clubhead runs into the golf ball.  The 3rd video explains how proper shaft lean is achieved by the 'swinging left' technique...and how most amateur golfers incorrectly think shaft lean is acquired. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"I think of hand path and let the clubhead path take care of itself. That's my feelings - my moto."

Edited April 12, 2021 by Nail_It
grammar

[GreatStrike]

4 minutes ago, EJIW said:

Informative content Nail_It thank you for sharing.  I've been making a recent swing change and have found many helpful things.     I'm still working my way through the thread and the videos are a good help too.  

 

Thanks for the shoutout...especially with your very first post. Welcome aboard.

 

The thread goes through a lot of hodgepodge early-on but has a lot of really good information that can be very helpful, especially the latter part of the thread. Feel free to participate/comment. 

[trilerian]

2 hours ago, EJIW said:

A lot of material to wade through Nail_It.  I'm switching to swing instead of using leverage as a primary force due to age and injury creeping in, and made it through 13 pages.  Like you said some hodgepodge  early on that I skimmed by.  The videos from Dan Martin I like a lot so I viewed his channel too for more content, and there were a couple that hit a home run.  Also stumbled on this one, how I don't know lol, but it examined some thoughts about in-line force in a swing instead of my go to force more across the shaft.  A good training aid, a club that telescopes out from inside the grip end?  Hmmm. 

 

Will catch up when finished with thread.  

 

 

That was great!  

[GreatStrike]

9 hours ago, EJIW said:

A lot of material to wade through Nail_It.  I'm switching to swing instead of using leverage as a primary force due to age and injury creeping in, and made it through 13 pages.  Like you said some hodgepodge  early on that I skimmed by.  The videos from Dan Martin I like a lot so I viewed his channel too for more content, and there were a couple that hit a home run.  Also stumbled on this one, how I don't know lol, but it examined some thoughts about in-line force in a swing instead of my go to force more across the shaft.  A good training aid, a club that telescopes out from inside the grip end?  Hmmm. 

 

Will catch up when finished with thread.  

 

 

 

Interesting video. The way that training club telescopes out reminds me of the SwingRite Golf Training Club, which measures the outward (or down the shaft) force. The outward (or down the shaft) force is what a golfer should be seeking because a true 'swing' has forces moving out and away from center. Most amateur golfers intentionally try to drive the clubhead laterally toward the target. These two methods are about 90 degrees divergent from one another. 

 

The Dan Martin videos really provide an easy to understand condition that is needed in order to 'swing' the golf club as it was designed to be used - that being a pulling force directly inline or longitudinally along the clubshaft (a.k.a. stretch tension) with no side force applied against the shaft/handle. Without stretch tension there would be no way to swing a weight around on the end of a string - in fact a 'swing' is impossible without stretch tension - this is true regardless whether a string, rope, wire or rigid clubshaft is used. That is why when a typical amateur golfer 'moves' his golf club by applying force to the side of the rigid clubshaft in order to lever-drive the clubhead at the golf ball he is not 'swinging' the golf club.   

 

You should experiment 'swinging' with Cf (centrifugal) and Cp (centripetal) protocols to see which pattern is best for you. Let me know if you want any advice on what to do so you can best assess the two patterns. There are two methods in which one can use the Cp pattern in particular - one that may work better for someone where age, inflexibility or injuries have crept into their body.    

 

Feel free to comment. 

 

 

 

Edited April 17, 2021 by Nail_It

[GreatStrike]

On 4/18/2021 at 8:20 AM, EJIW said:

Finished 25 pages and pretty easy to follow outside a little argumentative noise from other posters.  There were a couple pages where it would have been easier playing in traffic than wading through the noise, but it goes with the territory I suppose.

 

Swung yesterday, and to be honest it only took about half a bucket to learn how to stay out of the swing, to leave it alone, and when doing so I could feel the longitudinal stretch/directional awareness within the start down before Cf-Cp took over.  I wonder if that feeling was more tied to sensing the weight of falling arms than a club trailing, although I understand it's both, but if that difference in sensation, if there is one, might assist in understanding if we're proceeding properly.

 

I'm not clear what swinging with different Cf and Cp protocol means.  I understood a swing, any swing, will always have both properties, so advice, or examples, of the difference would be helpful so I can do an assessment on the difference.  It sounds like you're saying there is one pattern employing Cf, and 2 patterns employing Cp?   

 

Not sure what you meant by 'to stay out of the swing'.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

I'm going to breakdown the different topics into sections to make them easier to follow and to differentiate between them.    

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Depending on one's individuality and what best suits them there is a 'swinging' method in which the golf downswing initially begins from the very instant the golfer first starts moving the golf club downward from the top. This would be Dan Martin style golf swing in which he is an advocate of 'stretching the shaft' longitudinally from the get-go and continuing to pull (stretch) on the clubshaft in the direction it is pointing through the mid-downswing. (This is how one would go about getting a weight started swinging around in a circle on the end of a string.)

 

Dan Martin's 'The Pro' training device displays not only ‘how’ but also 'why' it is important to start the downswing with a direct pull in-line with the clubshaft and continuing that action until around P5.5 where the golfer 'let's it ride'. It is a must not to apply any side force to the handle/grip, otherwise you are using the rigid clubshaft as a lever which is a ‘hitting’ protocol. At around P5.5 the golfer is basically finished focusing on making sure he is pulling on the clubshaft longitudinally in the direction it is pointing (without any side force being applied) because beyond around P5.5 the golf club's 'swinging' momentum takes on a life of its own. This 'life of its own' is made possible by how the golfer got the club started to truly swing from the very beginning of the downswing, and the club's momentum and weight from around the P5.5 point on through the impact zone becomes like the rock in David's sling.  

 

This swing method, as you might well imagine, nicely sustains the wrist c0ck during the first half of the downswing because the golfer is pulling in-line on the clubshaft. This in-turn creates desirable ‘lag’ in the swing, which is what one feels when swinging a weight around on the end of a string as the weight lags the center rotation force. At around P6 the hand path changes from its wide circular arc to a narrower (smaller radius) circular arc, which causes the release to start taking place. (Any effort beyond around P5.5 to speed-up the arms or add clubhead speed will immediately upset and destroy the swing.) The release uncocks the lead wrist and the flail effect transfers massive energy down the clubshaft and into the clubhead. The golf club’s weight, momentum and design causes the clubface to naturally square-up at impact, and the ‘swinging’ action of the lagging clubhead naturally produces desirable shaft lean and likewise puts the club’s handle and the golfer’s hands ahead of the clubhead at impact. There is no side force applied, no use of the rigid clubshaft to muscularly drive the clubhead toward the golf ball, no hitting. I think you could say that the centripetal and the centrifugal forces equaled perfectly. Everything about this swing method is the purest form of ‘swinging’!

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Now for the Cf (centrifugal) and Cp (centripetal) ‘swinging’ protocols. This is a different method or you could say 'intention' from the pure golf swing described in the previous paragraphs. So, we’re on to something a little different and the Cf and Cp golf swings are handled differently. 

 

To make it clear upfront I think both Cf and Cp are 'swings'. However there are some people that take the view that a Cf golf swing is ‘swinging’ the golf club and a Cp golf swing is ‘hitting’ with the golf club. I personally put ‘hitting’ with the golf club in a totally separate category, in which the clubshaft is intentionally used by the golfer as a rigid instrument or device to muscularly drive the clubhead at the golf ball. If the clubshaft was a flexible string or rope (instead of a rigid shaft) such a ‘hitting’ action would only eventually jerk on the clubhead when its slack condition finally reached a stretched-out or 'stretch tension' condition...if that really ever happens at all when 'hitting'. I will not be discussing ‘hitting' here…

 

Before explaining the difference between the Cf golf swing and the Cp golf swing it should be understood that the golfer must have a circular hand path coming into the impact zone. Why this is important to clarify is because - many handicap golfers intentionally try to have their hand path (and their clubhead) travel along a direct or straight line as they approach impact with the golf ball. Their idea of a proper hand path and clubhead path in a golf swing is for the paths to travel in a straight line well before impact to well after impact. This is not how a golf ‘swing’ is made! If its not swung in a circle or circular arc it's not a 'swing'. The hand path and clubhead path of a golf ‘swing’ must take the form of a circular arc or semi-circle at least as the paths approach the impact zone…and very likely as they exit the impact zone (which will be explained in detail latter).      

    

In my opinion a Cf golf swing and a Cp golf swing can be identical until late in the downswing. The difference is the Cf golfer does not keep his hand path and clubhead path moving in a circular arc or semi-circle through impact with the golf ball whereas the Cp golfer does keep his hand path and clubhead path moving in a circular arc or semi-circle through impact with the golf ball.

 

The Cf golfer allows (lets) his hand path and his clubhead path to swing out toward the target instead of keeping his hand path moving in a circular arc through and beyond impact like the Cp golfer does. When the Cf golfer allows (lets) his hand path to change from traveling on a circular arc to start moving straight toward the target it is like snipping the string when swinging a weight around on the end of a string – the weight takes off on a tangent of the circle in which it was being swung. When this happens in a Cf golf swing the golfer still holds onto the golf club’s handle/grip, but his arms move away from his body and his clubhead wants to move out to the right or to the other side of the target line and the clubface wants to remain open. The Cf golfer also likely feels the need to somehow maintain or add speed because he is no longer swinging in a circular arc which naturally sustains angular velocity. For the Cf golfer to be proficient with such a golf swing he must deal with a significant degree of manipulation to square the clubface at impact, etc. Also, to become skilled using a Cf golf swing requires the golfer to practice a lot and have impeccable timing. This is your Rickie Fowler type golf swing.

 

As explained, the Cp golfer maintains his hand path and clubhead path in a circular arc, not only approaching the impact zone but actually through impact with the golf ball and this includes exiting the impact zone. In other words his hand path and clubhead path remain on a circular arc or semi-circle throughout the impact zone, whereas the Cf golfer only remains on the circular arc or semi-circle as he comes into the impact zone. The Cp golfer only cares about his hand path - and he lets his hand path take care of his clubhead’s path. [This is important to understand.] In other words, a Cp golfer will likely focus only on his hand path because when that is done correctly he knows that his clubhead path will be correct. The Cf golfer is always fighting a timing issue on exactly when to perform his release, and at the same time he is having to deal with a timing issue of physically having to square the clubface…not to mention problematic issues with flipping, lack of shaft lean, etc. The Cp golfer doesn’t have to deal with these troubling issues.   

 

The Cp golfer fully understands and recognizes that his golf swing is designed to have his clubhead swinging in a circular arc ‘as it makes impact with the golf ball’. In other words, his clubhead makes contact with the golf ball ‘as it is swinging in a semi-circle’. Most amateur golfers (who don’t try to use a lumberjack ‘hitting’ technique) will usually adopt [somewhat of] a Cf ‘swinging’ golf swing, but they usually try to add some lumberjack hitting and are challenged by the necessity of having to deal with squaring the clubface, timing the release, flipping, lack of shaft lean, etc. (A lot of this comes about because most amateur golfers feel the need to muscle the swing and they think they should force-drive the clubhead target-ward instead of swinging the clubhead in a circular arc as the golf club was designed to be used.) Needless to say, a Cp golf swing is much more desirable and easier to maintain than a Cf golf swing, yet both in my view are golf ‘swings’. The Cf golf swing differs significantly from the Cp golf swing by what the golfer does in his swing as he enters the impact zone. Golf is a game played amidst circles! The Cp golf swing completes the circle whereas the Cf golf swing doesn’t.

 

As we know with the Cp golf swing the golfer’s hand path remains on the circular arc or semi-circle throughout the entire impact zone, including post impact. This is a form of ‘swinging left’ or ‘exit left’. The Cf golf swing does not benefit from this ‘swinging left’ or ‘exit left’ because the hand path moves out toward the target instead of continuing in a circle. ‘Swinging left’ or ‘exit left’ is an extremely important action that should not be overlooked. In fact, for Cp golfers ‘swinging left’ or ‘exit left’ can be the answer to having a very sound golf swing.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

‘Swinging left’ or ‘exit left’ is the intentional pulling the hand path left toward your left-hand pocket beginning as early as P6.1 (clubshaft parallel with ground). You could say that ‘swinging left’ or ‘exit left’ is a Cp golf swing on steroids because the hand path doesn’t just remain on the circular path it actually moves inward, creating a smaller semi-circle. Like when swinging a weight around in a circle on the end of a string, when the center axis makes a smaller or tighter circle the weight swings around even faster. It’s the same with the golf swing!

 

I cannot emphasize too much how important it is to begin the ‘swinging left’ or ‘exit left’ far sooner than you think is needed. The reason why it must begin so early before impact (~P6.1) is because this move creates a series of desirable actions that are invaluable for a sound golf swing. You might think beginning the ‘swinging left’ or ‘exit left’ so early would cause a huge pull, but that’s seldom the case. What happens when you ‘swing left’ or ‘exit left’ is the clubface squares, the shaft leans and the clubhead speed increases. All good stuff! Watch the tour pros (especially from the target view if possible or down the line view so you can see their hand path) and you will see that 99% of them ‘swing left’ or ‘exit left’.

 

As an aside, chipping can be enormously improved by adopting a 'swing left' chipping method. 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

There are two different, yet conflicting, ways in which the body can be used with the Cf and Cp pattern golf swing - and in particular the Cp golf swing. One way will likely work better for someone where age, inflexibility or injuries have crept into their body. These two ways in which the body can be used are the ‘Hand Controlled Pivot’ and the ‘Pivot Controlled Hands’. In the case of the ‘Pivot Controlled Hands’ type golf swing the body is purposely used to literally rotate, unwind and swing (literally) the arms and hands around a space in which the body pivots. In the case of the ‘Hand Controlled Pivot’ type golf swing the body is used for balance and support, but most importantly the body is used to help transport the arm swing. With the 'Hands Controlled Pivot' method the golfer feels that he is better equipped to move his hands how and where he wants them to go and lets his body move or pivot in order to transport his arms and hands effectively. This is directly contrary to the 'Pivot Controlled Hands' method where the pivot moves the golfer's arms/hands. Two very different methods. Some people are able to use a PCH type swing and ‘swing left’ where others are much better able to use a HCP. The reason the 'Hands Controlled Pivot' is usually the much better choice is because the golfer uses his lead arm and hand to perform both the hand path as well as the ‘swing left’ action instead of counting on primarily body (pivot) rotation moving the arms/hands. Obviously there needs to be a good coordination effort of both body and arms/hands. However, if you are one that separates these two methods as being totally contrary and different in your own mind, or if you have some limitations due to age or injuries, I think the ‘Hand Controlled Pivot’ is by far the best way to perceive and execute the golf swing to take advantage of the ‘swing left’ component - in particular when using the Cp golf swing.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Lengthy, but detailed so it is hopefully understood. I hope this helps!

 

 

 

 

Edited April 19, 2021 by Nail_It

[GreatStrike]

1 hour ago, EJIW said:

Explains it pretty well Nail_It, thanks a bunch.  

 

Not sure what you meant by 'to stay out of the swing'.

 

Apologies for using my personal internal language without some kind of definition, lol.   It goes to what Dan Martin mentions in his video 'Wrist Torque - The Cause of All Poor Shots'. 

 

Staying out of the swing would be keeping my hands and wrists quiet of any torque presence not inline with the shaft until at least just prior to last parallel before impact where there are options from that point forward. 

 

Got it! 

 

Ideally you want the golf downswing to automatically take care of any wrist action from P6 onward. Dan Martin's pure swing (longitudinal shaft tension, shaft plane direction and momentum before ~P6) does that nicely in most cases, but the Cp (centripetal) golf swing I described above using a 'hands controlled pivot' and 'swinging left' or 'exit left' accomplishes it even better in my opinion.   

 

 

Edited April 20, 2021 by Nail_It

[elcgolf]

Dan, this is a fantastic thread. It got me to purchase a Pro, and I absolutely love it! One thing that I'm struggling to untangle is whether you advocate starting the swing with the arms or legs (ground forces). In some of your videos, like Power Pivot, it seems like you're advocating using ground forces to start the swing, but in others, it seems like you're suggesting starting with the arms pulling toward the target line. Sorry if you've already covered this but do you advocate for one over the other? Or, more basically, when using the Pro, should I focus on starting with the arms, or using ground forces? Or if it's both, is there a drill for that? Thanks.