Do you throw or twist?

[GreatStrike]

On 6/8/2021 at 4:48 PM, iSwing said:

His videos are simple but wholesome.   Like he mentions, active hands will kick you out of the game quicker than a fly finds garbage.  

 

Correct!  'Active' meaning to purposely manipulate the golf club in an effort to influence a change. Most people don't realize that  there's a huge difference between purposely manipulating the golf club with their active hands while making a golf swing versus actually allowing the golf swing's momentum (in conjunction with the golf club's swinging weight) to actively move their hands/wrists (a.k.a. 'the release').  

[GreatStrike]

On 6/10/2021 at 1:21 PM, iSwing said:

 

Just might be the best instruction phrase on the planet:  "and if they have hold of a club so what"...

 

 

It rarely ends well when the golfer attempts to manipulate anything other than his/her hand path. Trying to add speed or force to the  swing, or trying to influence a change in clubface alignment or a change in angle of attack, or a change in shaft lean will usually end in disaster as it will destroy/upset the "swing", much like trying to manipulate a weight being swung around on the end of a string will be destroyed if the position is manipulated, which causes the "swing" to become upset and the weight to fall out of its once nicely "swinging" orbit. A "swing" has certain proportional positions that must be carefully maintained. The experienced golfer learns to alter and influence what changes he wants to make by primarily altering or changing only his hand path, not by applying manipulative pressure to the side of the clubshaft - that being what the typical inexperienced amateur golfer tries to do. A perfect example of this is what 'swinging left' or 'exiting left' is all about - purposely altering the hand path to take on a distinct and decidedly sharply leftward move of the hand path where the hand path actually moves directly over the golfer's left foot. This hand path will produce the type of favorable hand/wrist release action that is so mysterious for most amateurs to achieve, understand and make sense of why it works..  This alteration in hand path (moving over the left foot through impact with the golf ball does indeed work!  I encourage anyone that struggles  to find a sound release to 'swing left' or ''exit left' through the ball. I think you will be both amazed and dumbfounded by the results. Give it  try  - what have you got to lose...besides an inferior release that has never worked right...and never will...      

 

All in Hand: Your Hands' Path Determines Success

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 21, 2021 by Nail_It
grammar

[liquorandpoker]

On 7/24/2020 at 12:46 PM, Nail_It said:

Have you ever studied a golf trick-shot artist and tried to figure out how he can swing a golf club with a rope, wire or a linked chain for the shaft? Have you ever tried to hit a golf ball using the Medicus dual hinge training club? The technique in learning how to skillfully swing any one of these are all the same. It has virtually nothing to do with setup, spine angle, shoulder alignment, grip, body parts, release point, etc., etc. It has almost everything to do with clearly understanding how you would propel (swing) a fist-size ball on the end of a super strong, highly flexible tiny diameter wire...or better yet how you would swing a clubhead with that flexible wire replacing the clubshaft. Think about that. I'll leave that thought with you so hopefully it will prompt you to think about how you [should] propel the golf club from the transition of your golf swing. There's something very important about how you start the downswing that you must understand - if you start to propel the golf club from the top incorrectly the chances are pretty much nil that you will somehow be able to save or correct it from becoming badly discombobulated. A little mishap at the beginning of the downswing (from the transition) creates a much bigger mess with each passing foot of travel. Like a bullet that has been fired from the barrel of a gun, there is no checked swing to save it, or put it back from whence it came. Here's your tip (which I mentioned in a previous post about the short thumb versus the long thumb): The golf club should be pulled longitudinally along the axis of the clubshaft in a circular arc, not a radial push force on the side of the shaft by either the left thumb or the right forefinger.What I mentioned above (quoted in bold) is admittedly somewhat void of specifics. Lets clear that up ... and I'll try not to be vague.

I mentioned the trick-shot artist swinging a clubhead on a flexible rope or wire, and swinging a Medicus dual hinge training club as examples of understanding how one would best swing a clubhead with a flexible wire replacing the clubshaft. I asked that people think about how they should best propel the golf club from the transition of their golf swing. If you chose to make a direct hand path (from the top at transition) straight to the bottom (representing impact) it should be clear to most people that the flexible wire (replacing the clubshaft) between the grip and clubhead would fall limp and not propel the clubhead until all the slack was removed...and even then nothing good or worthwhile would happen and any semblance of a 'swing' would have been lost. In fact, it would probably jerk ('jerk' is actually a physics term meaning the rate at which an object's acceleration changes with respect to time) on the clubhead when the slack in the flexible wire became taught...somewhere in time during the downswing. Of course during this time the golfer is doing what he does to manipulate and muscle the golf club down to the golf ball in a heavy, awkward, brutal demonstration of how not to swing a golf club...as the results most always display. However, if you [hopefully instead] chose to make a wide hand path (from the top at transition) along a circular arc (where has this been mentioned before?) then lo and behold, by golly, to our amazement we have created a way to have a taught flexible wire for the entire travel time (with no jerk I might add) from the very top (at transition) all the way through impact. And, that my friends is like capturing lightning in a bottle!

The quicker you are able to get it swinging, the better chance you have of making a pure golf swing with wonderful results. That's true with anything you are attempting to swing. Do you remember me mentioning about learning how to 'quickly' get a gyroscopic hand exerciser ball going, or spinning a rope/lasso, or even better would be learning how to swing a flail efficiently and effectively? All these things are best made to swing if you know how to get it started swinging quicker - right away. Give a small child a weight on the end of a string and they might struggle to get the weight swinging in orbit right away. Let them do it for a day or two and they'll become an expert at getting it going right away. Is there a technique to it? You bet! A lot of it is 'feel', but you might need to be taught first how best to accomplish it. Getting that gyroscopic hand exerciser ball going quickly can be tricky, especially when done in the non-dominant hand. Is there a technique to it? You bet! Once again, a lot of it is 'feel', but you might need to be taught first how best to accomplish it. Do you see a pattern? Once you figure out 'how' (what is needed) to do it, then it's all (100%) about feel. One last comment about getting the swing started quickly. I don't mean moving the object (club, rock, flail) quickly - I mean actually getting it swinging in orbit as soon as possible. There's a difference!

Your success in getting something (anything) swinging or spinning is established by the very initial beginnings of the activity. If you start out trying to swing something with a fast jerk or non-swinging type manipulative motion it's doubtful whatever you're trying to swing is suddenly just going to start magically swinging. You upset any chance of swinging from the get-go. So, what do you do. It's best that you stop and start all over again. With a golf swing we don't have the benefit of starting the downswing and checking our swing and starting all over again (unless of course you are Tiger Woods!). That is why it is so very important to get the golf club started swinging right away, as soon as possible. It's not that difficult. A few things we've already discussed definitely help make it easier. A wide downswing that smoothly pulls the golf club longitudinally along the axis of the clubshaft in a circular arc, a short left thumb that doesn't exert force to the side of the clubshaft (grip), refraining from using the trail forefinger from exerting force to the side of the clubshaft (grip), not jerking the club down. All these things are meant to help get the golf club smoothly moving (swinging/propelled) into a circular orbit with no disturbance that would upset the swinging motion. Have you ever wanted to layup short of a water hazard and swung smoothly and to your amazement hit the ball so pure it went 20 yards into the hazard, and it even had a different impact sound and more of a penetrating ball flight? You probably experienced what a pure swing feels like! And you want to experience that wonderful feeling all the time, right?

Let me mention briefly what a generally direct hand path (not good) from transition to impact actually entails. It brings about a steep angle-of-attack, a narrow impact zone, an overwhelming need to release early, a hideous need to overuse the forearms and hands to manipulate the golf club, and the strong tendency of having a badly timed golf swing.

I like a wider forward swing arc. I think it is a necessity if you want to 'swing' the golf club (which is how a golf club is designed to be used) ... and if you want to 'swing' the golf club you better start it swinging from the very beginning of the downswing by pulling (propelling) the golf club longitudinally along the axis of the clubshaft in a circular arc (that means wide as opposed to narrow) to keep that imaginary flexible wire (as a replacement clubshaft) taught without a hint of slack.

With a wider forward swing arc the clubhead's angle-of-ascent into the golf ball is shallow (meaning much better compression and spin loft) and the clubhead's directional angle-of-approach to the golf ball is down the target line. You don't need to make a purposeful 'shallowing' move when you have a wider forward swing arc, which is just another chance to upset the swinging motion. If you were attempting to start swinging a rock on the end of a string and were told to shallow the swing plane, don't you think merging that move into the early swinging action might upset the swing and might even cause the string to slacken and 'jerk'?

Having a wide forward swing arc the clubhead will travel on a shallow approach like an airplane landing on a runway and that will direct the clubhead's energy more into the golf ball. If you are wondering about how a wide forward swing arc affects that mysterious feature called 'lag', then you are about to be served icing on your cake and a big scoop of your favorite Blue Bell ice cream too! A shallow and wide arc actually encourages a late release. Yep! You might have thought the exact opposite, but as Ben Hogan once said; "Reverse every natural instinct and do the opposite of what you are inclined to do, and you will probably come very close to having a perfect golf swing."

 

 

 

PS - Have you ever noticed the most defining characteristic of K.J. Choi's swing is his transition from the top of the backswing into the downswing. As he starts down, his arms and hands move outward in what is often called an over-the-top or "casting" motion. In reality, all he is doing is setting himself to swing down on a wide circular arc. Some [incorrectly in my opinion] think he is intentionally setting the club to swing on an outside-to-in path that will produce his preferred left-to-right ball flight, however there are much better ways to get a fade ball flight than to swing on an outside-to-in path, which would most likely cause a weak shot starting left with less compression due to an abnormally open clubface that would be required at impact.

 

What do you mean?

 

.....

🤣🤣🤣

...just messing with you.  Sometimes I do that in business emails.  Usually goes over like a turd to the forehead

[GreatStrike]

On 6/11/2021 at 9:01 AM, liquorandpoker said:

 

What do you mean?

 

.....

🤣🤣🤣

...just messing with you.  Sometimes I do that in business emails.  Usually goes over like a turd to the forehead

 

I meant exactly what I said - no more, and no less... 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 12, 2021 by Nail_It
grammar

[GreatStrike]

Larry - There is really no way for you  to create or copy  the hand/wrist release action that the tour pros are able to achieve by trying to manipulate or contort your hands/wrists/forearms in an effort to make them move in a certain way or particular fashion. Let's face facts - you really don't even know in what way you would want your hands/wrists/forearms to move even if you could magically snap your fingers and get them to perform in a certain way. There's no doubt that millions of golfers experiment for hours on-end trying to figure out  exactly  how their hands/wrists/forearms action should best move in order to get the release results that the pros get. For sure, it's a mystery that is not easily understood. If you will  just follow the simple advice and react to those results I think you'll feel and see  results that you'll be very pleased with. I think you'll be in for a huge surprise when you learn  that 'swinging left' or 'exiting left' or 'turning the corner' really is the answer to obtaining a hands/wrists/forearms release like the tour pros have.

 

The problem of not being able to achieve a sound hands/wrists/forearm release action like the tour pros have is that you (like most amateurs) want to swing your hands out toward the target. That seems logical enough because you want to hit the ball there, so you swing your hands there. But that's a problem because it prevents and destroys a sound release  from happening. The fix however is easy - really! As difficult as  acquiring a sound (pro-like) release is on your own - what is needed from you to actually accomplish it is really very simple.

 

All you have to do to acquire a perfect pro-like release is to swing the grip end of the club to  the left through impact - toward your left hip. Even better would be to have your hand path  move over your left foot through impact. I know it sounds crazy, but that is exactly what it takes. If you are like millions of other golfers and fed up with not being able to figure out why you can't strike the ball like the scratch players and the tour pros then you should be willing to give  this a try. What have  you got to lose?    

 

I want you to focus on ripping the club's handle sharply to the left at the precise moment you make impact with the golf ball. How good can you get at doing this? I'll bet that you can get really good at doing it. And the better you get at doing it, the better golfer you will become...guaranteed! 

 

When you swing your hands left through the ball the swing bottom moves in front of the ball so you catch it on the downswing for a crisp strike with maximum compression. It also helps you maintain stability and the loft on the clubface for a predictable trajectory.

 

And as you'll learn, the more you swing the handle left the better things get!

 

Most all amateur golfers swing their hands out toward the target  through impact. But when the  handle swings straight through impact the clubhead actually goes to the right. That's because the hands swing on a smaller arc round the body than the clubhead does...  it takes longer for the clubhead to turn left. Pushing the handle toward the target might feel straight, but it's forcing the clubhead to the right - and  this in-turn moves the low point behind the ball. We want the low point in front of the ball for solid strikes and maximum compression. 

 

You're goal is to try to hit the ball straight, but to move the clubhead straight through impact  you MUST swing the handle to the left. 

 

  

The instinct to swing the clubhead out toward the target must be broken. To do that only takes seeing the results of what 'swinging left' or 'exiting left' or 'turning the corner' does for your swing. It won't take long! Like good sex - in no time you won't be able to get enough 'swinging left'!   

 

 

I understand the instinct to swing the clubhead out toward the target - you're trying to hit the ball straight. But to move the clubhead straight through impact, you have to swing the handle to the left. Because of the angle of the shaft to the ground and the bigger arc the clubhead makes around your body, the clubhead is always moving more to the right than the handle is. To swing it straight, the handle has to go left. That's how you hit the ball solid and straight.

 

I would encourage you to rethink your hand path and make it follow a smaller semi-circle (see image below  of a small hoola-hoop illustrating a smaller hand path arc).

 

When practicing 'swinging left' don't be timid in the amount of force used to swing  that handle left during impact with the ball. Also, don't be fearful at making your hand path move directly over your left foot. The idea is to swing left through the ball...and do it with authority. If that means that you feel as if you are moving your hand path over your left heel, that's even better still!    

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2021 by Nail_It
grammar

[blehnhard]

Would you agree that in order to move rhe hands DTL one would have to separate the lead arm from the chest?

 

My feeling of swinging left is to let the back and upward movement of the lead shoulder pull the hands up and around from P6 causing the club head to move down and out.

 

Bruce 

[GreatStrike]

16 hours ago, blehnhard said:

Would you agree that in order to move the hands DTL one would have to separate the lead arm from the chest?

 

My feeling of swinging left is to let the back and upward movement of the lead shoulder pull the hands up and around from P6 causing the club head to move down and out.

 

Bruce 

 

Yes, typically when the golfer tries to push his hands and clubhead out toward the target the lead arm will disconnect and separate from the chest into an unconnected and unstructured chickenwing type action that almost always lacks the sweet spot precision, the force and gusto one achieves when the swing is sound.

 

It's truly amazing what 'swinging  left'  or 'existing left' does for hand/wrist/forearm release action. It's almost like giving the golfer a small  pushbutton or a pill that suddenly corrects his golf swing...and in particular his release action. Suddenly  no more scooped shots -no more fat shots - no more concerns with catching the ball heavy in fairway bunkers. Right away the most desirable lie becomes a tight lie, or a lie off hardpan. The reason why is because the proper release moves the low point in front of the ball. Also, as you Turn The Corner when 'swinging left'  the clubhead speed increase is incredible. For the golfer that has always struggled to really compress the ball to make that sizzling sound - you're in for a  real treat!             

 

 

Edited June 15, 2021 by Nail_It
grammar

[GreatStrike]

Sean - Golf is as game played amidst circles. The better you are able to swing your clubhead/clubface on a circular arc and  make impact that propels the golf ball straight to the target, the better golfer you will become. The sooner you get all things 'straight' out of your mind related  to golf, the better off you will be. Semi-circles and arcs is the symmetry of how the golf club is to be swung. That applies to the putting stroke also, which is best made on an arc with a degree of toe flow in the back and through swing to help mini-trap the ball and give it good roll, distance and direction. 

 

Yes, 'turning the corner' can be related  to the water skier turning sharply inward, reducing the skier's radius - when he 'turns the corner' on that smaller radius his speed picks up drastically. 

 

The same thing happens with a sling (David & Goliath). When you swing the sling and 'turn the corner' on a smaller radius the sling's speed picks up drastically.

 

I think you got it! Now, go do it with a golf club! 'Swing left', Exit left', 'Turn the corner' , 'Arc it off'  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 16, 2021 by Nail_It
grammar

[KMeloney]

Nail -- One roadblock I see (read: experience) to swinging left is coming into the ball from too far inside. At that point, it seems impossible to swing left. So, whereas it's probably a "given," it seems supremely important to make sure your swing path isn't already too right (which lends itself to chasing your hands down the line to the target, if not to right field). As someone who can get way too inside, getting the path more neutral feels very awkward and OTT.

[GreatStrike]

On 6/15/2021 at 4:10 PM, KMeloney said:

Nail -- One roadblock I see (read: experience) to swinging left is coming into the ball from too far inside. At that point, it seems impossible to swing left. So, whereas it's probably a "given," it seems supremely important to make sure your swing path isn't already too right (which lends itself to chasing your hands down the line to the target, if not to right field). As someone who can get way too inside, getting the path more neutral feels very awkward and OTT.

  Correct - agree. Though coming into the ball  too far from inside  is likely an indication that the golfer is taking a direct 'bee-line'  during the downswing into the ball. That is why it is more beneficial to have a wide-ish downswing because it allows for more freedom with the hand path.  One thing that helps take care of a  direct 'bee-line 'to the ball habit is understanding and accepting  that the hand path for both backswing and downswing are to be made made on an semi-circle, not on anything remotely close to a straight line...with a straight line being symbolic of a 'bee-line' to the ball from  too far inside.     

 

 

Edited June 16, 2021 by Nail_It
grammar

[KMeloney]

21 minutes ago, Nail_It said:

  Correct - agree. Though coming into the ball  too far from inside  is likely an indication hat the golfer is taking a direct 'bee-line'  during the downswing into the ball. That is why  it is more beneficial to have a wide-ish downswing because it allows for more freedom with the hand path.  One thing that help take care of a  direct 'bee-line 'to the ball is understanding and accepting  that the hand path for both backswing and downswing are made on an semi-circle, not on anything remotely close to a straight line...with a straight line being symbolic of a 'bee-line' to the ball from  too far inside.     

 

Thank you. I'm glad to hear you mention making a bee-line to the ball as a common culprit, because that's exactly what I attribute to a lot of my poor swings.

[GreatStrike]

Denny - Instead of you forcing or manipulating your hands/wrists/forearms to move in a particular way or in a specific pattern (in which you 'think' they should move) to achieve a proper release action - when you 'swing left' or 'exit left' or 'arc it off' or 'turn the corner' you instead are doing two remarkably extraordinary things that brings about and accomplishes exactly what is needed for your hands/wrists/forearms to perform a proper and flawlessly sound release. You are actually taking advantage of using a different hand path (than what you are accustomed to using) that most reasonable golfers with some experience under their belt would deem to be totally illogical, unreasonable,implausible,dubious,inconceivable and mindboggling reasonless - a hand path which  is so counterintuitive to the average  golfer that it simply does not make any sense whatsoever.  Maybe that's the hidden beauty of it!  You see, by changing the hand path to this crazy, illogical movement pattern  we have erroneously  created a condition where the golf club's  weight and its moving momentum, plus the club's natural tendency to rotate around its center of mass - has activated  or set in motion exactly what the doctor ordered  - a personalized hand-written prescription that literally forces the body to do exactly what we want it to do - to make a perfect release...

 

 

 

 

Edited June 21, 2021 by Nail_It
grammar

[elcgolf]

This is a great thread! Nail_It do you have any videos? Or any that you’d recommend? It’a hard putting this into practice without seeing it. Thank you!

[GreatStrike]

4 hours ago, elcgolf said:

This is a great thread! Nail_It do you have any videos? Or any that you’d recommend? It’s hard putting this into practice without seeing it. Thank you!

 

There are numerous videos readily available about 'swinging left', existing left'. They aren't too difficult to find. Watch the tour pros, (LPGA, PGA, European and Korn Ferry tour) and you should get a taste of what they are doing with respect to 'swinging left' through the ball.

 

I've also given  some pretty detailed descriptions of what to do. One of the key ingredients is to have your hand path move over your left foot.   The images I've posted should be helpful  to you also.     

[GreatStrike]

The great Sam Snead knew the importance of 'swinging left'. Chances are Snead learned about 'swinging left' on his own, either by mistake or purposely swinging out of control, something that Jack Nicklaus endorsed doing and routinely did himself to better learn about the nuances and subtleties of the golf swing.

 

In the video below of Sam Snead you can easily see that Snead purposely and robustly swung the handle beautifully left through the ball to create his first-rate release action. Make no mistake about it, Sam Snead's superb release was accomplished by his hand path.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2021 by Nail_It
grammar

[GreatStrike]

We often hear players talk of “swinging to the left” through impact. Kevin Kisner’s ballstriking has improved as he has learned how to do this.

[GreatStrike]

'Turn the Corner'  to square the clubface and drastically speed up the clubhead

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2021 by Nail_It
grammar

[Xander Fan]

Thanks for all the great input on this thread (and all the videos). I recognize my problem at 47 seconds into that very first video with Eric and Kevin Roman. I stop throwing. I have a suspicion as to why. Even though I am trying to throw the club, I am also bowing the left wrist coming into impact, and so I'm defeating the idea of having loose wrists and letting the club swing freely.

 

What happens when I do swing freely (without bowing the left wrist) is I can hit the woods well, but I find it impossible to get any compression on the irons. (I hit thin shots or even skulls.)

 

So I feel like I need to do the left wrist bowing to get the compression, but when I'm doing that, I lose the looseness in the wrists.

 

Any way out of this problem?

[berndgeurts]

7 minutes ago, Xander Fan said:

Thanks for all the great input on this thread (and all the videos). I recognize my problem at 47 seconds into that very first video with Eric and Kevin Roman. I stop throwing. I have a suspicion as to why. Even though I am trying to throw the club, I am also bowing the left wrist coming into impact, and so I'm defeating the idea of having loose wrists and letting the club swing freely.

 

What happens when I do swing freely (without bowing the left wrist) is I can hit the woods well, but I find it impossible to get any compression on the irons. (I hit thin shots or even skulls.)

 

So I feel like I need to do the left wrist bowing to get the compression, but when I'm doing that, I lose the looseness in the wrists.

 

Any way out of this problem?

Let the hands move up a little, it will make the clubhead go down. Same as swinging left the clubhead goes right and out. I know it sounds counterintuitive.

[GreatStrike]

On 6/21/2021 at 10:37 PM, Xander Fan said:

Thanks for all the great input on this thread (and all the videos). I recognize my problem at 47 seconds into that very first video with Eric and Kevin Roman. I stop throwing. I have a suspicion as to why. Even though I am trying to throw the club, I am also bowing the left wrist coming into impact, and so I'm defeating the idea of having loose wrists and letting the club swing freely.

 

What happens when I do swing freely (without bowing the left wrist) is I can hit the woods well, but I find it impossible to get any compression on the irons. (I hit thin shots or even skulls.)

 

So I feel like I need to do the left wrist bowing to get the compression, but when I'm doing that, I lose the looseness in the wrists.

 

Any way out of this problem?

 

If you tried using a fly swatter handle as the medium (connection) between your clubhead and your body's rotating power source you would never compress the ball. You need both 'stretch tension' and a change in hand path. Think about the  rock thrower that uses a shepherd's sling made with flexible rope or cord to hurl rocks at wolves that are after his sheep or at his enemies. He must put the sling's cord under 'stretch tension' by using a significant pulling force on the sling's cord in order to transfer energy to the rock. He must also change his hand path in order to release the rock from the sling with maximum transfer of the energy into the rock. 

 

Think about the bullwhip artist. - He uses momentum and 'stretch tension', and he also uses a change in hand path too! Watch this bullwhip artist control the 'stretch tension' of his bullwhip by applying a significant pulling force at just the right time. Watch him change his hand path to trigger or initiate the release phase where the whip starts its whipping movement action.  Remember the Shawn Clement Baton Twirl video? Shawn discusses the club's momentum and how the hands/wrist work much like a baton twirler's hand/wrist works when she changes her hand path which brings about the beginning of the twirling movement action. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 23, 2021 by Nail_It
grammar

[CasualLie]

On 5/8/2021 at 12:33 PM, Nail_It said:

 

 

 

The ‘why’ this happens is rather magical. Consider that at P6 your clubshaft is parallel with the ground and parallel with the target line and your hands are opposite your right thigh with your wrist cocked. (Note: If your golf swing is like most amateurs’ golf swing this position is never achieved because you would miss the golf ball - therefore you would start early extension well before P6 and of course your clubface is open and in dire need of manipulation in hopes you can square it at impact. The results are poor clubhead speed, flipping lead wrist, glancing blow with low smash factor and lots of slices, pulls and fat shots.) Anyway, back to the magical ‘why’ the uncocking (to produce the ‘down’) happens so naturally when you use the pivot to move the hand path sharply left over your left shoe. Back to the P6 position again where your clubshaft is parallel with the ground and parallel with the target line and your hands are opposite your right thigh with your wrist cocked. In slow motion from this P6 position make a pivot that moves your hands toward your left shoe. What happens? You’ll see that it naturally uncocks the wrist and drives the clubshaft vertically downward. This uncocking is caused by the direction of movement and the momentum. Now get in the same P6 position again but this time move your hands out toward the target (instead of toward your left shoe). What happens? Disaster! There is no natural uncocking! That is why forced early uncocking is needed that must begin happening well before P6, and there is no way the clubhead can ever reach the target line to run into the golf ball without early extension, and of course the clubface is wide open!

 

 

 

 

If your hands are just a little outside of right thigh at P6 and sometimes the wrist c0ck is still there, but sometimes it is starting to lose a little early, all other things being equal what is stopping the hands getting to the thigh sooner?  Arm speed?  And I am not saying consciously speed up the arms.  What I gather from your other posts and links to videos, from the top, straighten out the right arm, sort of like that arrow from quiver analogy you see tossed around, but the point being get the arc going wide early; i.e. put tension on the rope/whip/etc...  But just as important, keep the back to target to allow for time for that arc to gather speed, and this will get hands in front of the thigh.

 

In other words...that Justin Rose drill.

 

Am I onto something or making a mess of what you are saying?

 

I feel like I am so close, but missing something crucial.  I am not EE, but hardly open at impact, club is trying to exit left, but not quite as pronounced as the pics you post.  It's in the ballpark, but just a little late; fractionally late.  So how I get that speed in the right place so my hands are not a few inches short of being in front of the thigh, and the clubhead exiting left just a little sooner....a little...?

[Xander Fan]

20 hours ago, berndgeurts said:

Let the hands move up a little, it will make the clubhead go down. Same as swinging left the clubhead goes right and out. I know it sounds counterintuitive.

Thanks berndgeurts. You mean move the hands up a little at address, right? Then just swing away?

[Xander Fan]

7 hours ago, Nail_It said:

 

If you tried using a fly swatter handle as the medium (connection) between your clubhead and your body's rotating power source you would never compress the ball. You need both 'stretch tension' and a change in hand path. Think about the  rock thrower that uses a shepherd's sling made with flexible rope or cord to hurl rocks at wolves that are after his sheep or at his enemies. He must put the sling's cord under 'stretch tension' by using a significant pulling force on the sling's cord in order to transfer energy to the rock. He must also change his hand path in order to release the rock from the sling with maximum transfer of the energy into the rock. 

 

Think about the bullwhip artist. - He uses momentum and 'stretch tension', and he also uses a change in hand path too! Watch this bullwhip artist control the 'stretch tension' of his bullwhip by applying a significant pulling force at just the right time. Watch him change his hand path to trigger or initiate the release phase where the whip starts its whipping movement action.  Remember the Shawn Clement Baton Twirl video? Shawn discusses the club's momentum and how the hands/wrist work much like a baton twirler's hand/wrist works when she changes her hand path which brings about the beginning of the twirling movement action. 

 

 

 

 

 

Very thought provoking. Thank you. The slingshot guy really got my attention. Like how far would the stone go with just the arm movement? And yet with the whipping wrist action it's practically a bullet.

 

I read a tip by Bob Toski a long time ago that said the problem with most golf swings is that they aren't swings.

 

That got me into sort of the idea that you're either swinging or hitting.

 

Swinging never really worked for me (I sensed at some level there was not enough power) and hitting, I'd always get my hands too far in front even well after impact (a check swing if you will).

 

The very few times I've successfully gotten my wrists through the ball I've killed it. I'm usually a hitter and what I try to do is bow the left wrist on the way back and then bow the right wrist through impact (at least that's the feel). The notion of whipping the club through--that I've never tried. But I'll try it next time out. Thanks again.

[GreatStrike]

On 6/22/2021 at 3:32 PM, CasualLie said:

 

If your hands are just a little outside of right thigh at P6 and sometimes the wrist c0ck is still there, but sometimes it is starting to lose a little early, all other things being equal what is stopping the hands getting to the thigh sooner?  Arm speed?  And I am not saying consciously speed up the arms.  What I gather from your other posts and links to videos, from the top, straighten out the right arm, sort of like that arrow from quiver analogy you see tossed around, but the point being get the arc going wide early; i.e. put tension on the rope/whip/etc...  But just as important, keep the back to target to allow for time for that arc to gather speed, and this will get hands in front of the thigh.

 

In other words...that Justin Rose drill.

 

Am I onto something or making a mess of what you are saying?

 

I feel like I am so close, but missing something crucial.  I am not EE, but hardly open at impact, club is trying to exit left, but not quite as pronounced as the pics you post.  It's in the ballpark, but just a little late; fractionally late.  So how I get that speed in the right place so my hands are not a few inches short of being in front of the thigh, and the clubhead exiting left just a little sooner....a little...?

 

Good insight! But I think it needs a little change in perceptivity. As for the P6 position (where the clubshaft is parallel with the ground and parallel with the target line and the hands are opposite your right thigh with your wrist cocked) - trying to match  or achieve this particular (exact, specific, precise (special) position while swinging a golf club is a little like trying to hit a particular (exact, specific, precise (special) arm and hand position while doing a back flip off the high dive while carrying a 5lb dumbbell in each hand.  It's actually unimportant that you hit this ideal position that you feel carries with it some magic. That position is not a marker per se for a sound golf swing... Did you know that this P6 hand position off the right thigh that you are so enamored with can be attained (reached) with a swing speed of only 5-10 mph. Try it!   I know that much of the talk here is about body part positions, but acquiring a sound golf swing has very little to do with getting body parts in the correct positions. It has everything to do with your mind's eye.    It's not about where you put body parts - It's about what you do with the club - where you intend in your mind's eye to put the club at some point in the swing. Your success or failure of accomplishing your intent is gauged by where you were actually able to put the club compared  to your intent.    

 

 

Quote

Ben Hogan told us; "The average golfer's problem is not so much the lack of ability, as it is lack of knowledge about  what he should be doing." When you can mentally picture what you are trying to do, or are being asked to do, the task is more than half done. With an understanding of your swing in your mind's eye, the improvement can be dramatic!  

 

Quote

Good players have a clear  concept in their mind's eye of what they want to do with their body and the golf club before they swing. I highly suggest focusing on what to do with the club, not on how to move the body.

 

Can you imagine swinging  a hammer doing carpentry work or installing roofing and trying to  hit a particular forearm and hand position with each strike while hammering? What matters is how the hammer is swung - meaning how it is powered...and how in-tune you are with  the hammer's weight and its moving momentum, which is the deciding factor in timing the uncocking of your wrist to release the hammer's head flush on the nail head.  If you gave the worker a new hammer with the handle lengthened a little and the head had a little increase in weight - that would cause the skilled worker to alter his uncocking or release, and not just because the handle length and the head changed weight, but the hammer's momentum characteristics felt by the man swinging the hammer also changed. What does this actually mean?

 

Let's  look at real world clubs and golfers. Not all golf clubs have the same static weight, nor do all golf clubs feel the same with their different  shaft weights and the different frequency responses. This means that one tour pro (for example) can swing his x-iron  at say 100 mph whereas another tour pro  can swing his x-iron at only 92 mph, or some other tour pro can swing his x-iron at 105 mph. Okay, so  do any of these three tour pros have greater arm speed?  Not necessarily. Do any of these three tour pros hit the magic mark (where the clubshaft is parallel with the ground and parallel with the target line and the hands are opposite the right thigh with wrist cocked)?  Maybe, maybe not. It all depends on how the tour pro swings his clubs. That's why some tour pros vary greatly from one another in swing speed  a well as how they deliver the cub to the ball...a well as how well they compress the ball (with the unmistaken sound that someone like Henrik Stenson makes when he strikes the ball. But how about the slowest swingers on tour? Do they hit that magic mark (where the clubshaft is parallel with the ground and parallel with the target line and the hands are opposite your right thigh with your wrist cocked)?  How about the LPGA players? You see, like the man swinging the hammer - with muscle strength, experience and his ability to deal with changes in momentum, he can deliver the head of the hammer on the nail head for a flush hit every time...and with eye-popping speed.. But rest assured that he didn't match his same exact swing mark (release, hand position forearm position) he had with the new hammer like he did with his old hammer, but he is still is able to swing it just as accurately and with plenty of speed. Why is this? Because he, like the tour pros only have one thing in mind when they swing the golf club (or the hammer in his case) - That one thing is where they want the clubhead or hammer head to end up - not necessarily the position where they want their forearm or hands or elbow to be at a particular point during the swing.  

 

When you start asking a golfer (e.g. yourself) to place body parts in a particular position during a golf swing in which heavy body parts are moving all over the place and golf club's effective weight and momentum are dictating your next action – you’re just asking for frustration.

 

Try walking down he road a few hundred yards at a steady clip and see how successful you are in swinging your arms in the opposite direction that is natural...and while doing so making sure that you have one arm and hand that hits the mark near your thigh that you have prearranged they should hit.

 

I'm afraid you are trying to do more than you (or any other person) are reasonably capable of doing. I suggest that you change your focus to where you want to move the club, not body parts. 

 

I also suggest that you work on your subconscious mind, which defines all thoughts and actions within our awareness. It is a data-bank for everything, which is not in your conscious mind. It stores your beliefs, your previous experience, your memories, your skills. Everything that you have seen, done or thought is also there.  It also is responsible for allowing you to reach and pick up your coffee cup or drink without ever looking to see where it’s located - without opening your eyes to look at the drink sitting on the table. You already know exactly where the drink sits in your subconscious mind and you just reach for it and grab it just like you had put your eyes on it! When your subconscious mind can see where you want your golf club (not your body parts) to end up at a certain point in the swing - it makes accomplishing the task much easier. Your mind has the ability to give you visionary powers based on preconceived views and intentions. It can provide a  roadmap to many successful end results and eventualities.  As you might imagine this also plays a big part in one's ability to putt well. 

 

I know this reply is rather long and twisty, but I hope it helps.

 

 

 

 

    

Edited June 24, 2021 by Nail_It
grammar

[berndgeurts]

3 hours ago, Xander Fan said:

Thanks berndgeurts. You mean move the hands up a little at address, right? Then just swing away?

Nope, use the golf club like a whip. To get the head down, hands go up in the downswing just before impact. Exit left and up.

[GreatStrike]

This video is pretty good and quite informative.

 

 

Arms,  Wrists & Hands - Hands Come Around The Body To The Left 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 23, 2021 by Nail_It
grammar

[Xander Fan]

18 hours ago, berndgeurts said:

Nope, use the golf club like a whip. To get the head down, hands go up in the downswing just before impact. Exit left and up.

Thanks berndgeurts. But don't you mean "To get the head down, hands go forward up in the downswing just before impact"?

 

And I like that "Exit left and up." That should stop me from locking the wrists up and pushing everything straight down the target line.

 

PS. I just watched the "Hands down the best drill for your golf swing" video and he talks about the hands going up, and it looked to me like they were going forward. So maybe your "up" is my "forward."

Edited June 23, 2021 by Xander Fan
additional information

[Xander Fan]

1 hour ago, Nail_It said:

This video is pretty good and quite informative.

 

 

Arms,  Wrists & Hands - Hands Come Around The Body To The Left 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, this is me. Thanks a lot. Only question I have is he talks about dropping, not whipping, the club.

[CasualLie]

12 hours ago, Nail_It said:

 

Good insight! But I think it needs a little change in perceptivity. As for the P6 position (where the clubshaft is parallel with the ground and parallel with the target line and the hands are opposite your right thigh with your wrist cocked) - trying to match  or achieve this particular (exact, specific, precise (special) position while swinging a golf club is a little like trying to hit a particular (exact, specific, precise (special) arm and hand position while doing a back flip off the high dive while carrying a 5lb dumbbell in each hand.  It's actually unimportant that you hit this ideal position that you feel carries with it some magic. That position is not a marker per se for a sound golf swing...

 

Can you imagine swinging  a hammer doing carpentry work or installing roofing and trying to  hit a particular forearm and hand position wit each strike while hammering? What matters is how the hammer is swung - meaning how it is powered...and how in-tune you are with  the hammer's weight and its moving momentum, which is the deciding factor in timing the uncocking of your wrist to release the hammer's head flush on the nail head.  If you gave the worker a new hammer with the handle lengthened a little and the head had a little increase in weight - that would cause the skilled worker to alter his uncocking or release, and not just because the handle length and the head changed weight, but the hammer's momentum characteristics felt by the man swinging the hammer also changed. What does this actually mean?

 

Let's  look at real world clubs and golfers. Not all golf clubs have the same static weight, nor do all golf clubs feel the same with their different  shaft weights and different frequency response shafts. This means that one tour pro (for example) can swing his x-iron  at say 100 mph whereas another tour pro  can swing his x-iron at only 92 mph, or some other our pro can swing his x-ion at 105 mph. Okay, so  do any of these three tour pros have greater arm speed?  Not necessarily. Do any of these three tour pros hit the magic mark (where the clubshaft is parallel with the ground and parallel with the target line and the hands are opposite your right thigh with your wrist cocked)?  Maybe, maybe not. It all depends on how the tour pro swings his clubs. That's why some tour pros vary greatly from one another in swing speed  a well as how they deliver the cub to the ball...a well as how well they compress the ball (with the unmistaken sound that someone like Henrik Stenson makes when he strikes the ball. But how about the slowest swingers on tour? Do they hit that magic mark (where the clubshaft is parallel with the ground and parallel with the target line and the hands are opposite your right thigh with your wrist cocked)?  How about the LPGA players? You see, like the man swinging the hammer - with muscle strength, experience and his ability to deal with changes in momentum, he can deliver the head of the hammer on the nail head for a flush hit every time...and with eye-popping speed.. But rest assured that he didn't match his same exact swing mark (release, hand position forearm position) he had with the new hammer like he did with his old hammer, but he is still able to swing it just as accurately and with plenty of speed. Why is this? Because he, like the tour pros only have one thing in mind when they swing the golf club or the hammer in his case - That one thing is where they want the clubhead or hammer head to end up - not necessarily the position where they want their forearm or hands or elbow to be at a particular point during the swing.  

 

When you start asking a golfer (e.g. yourself) to place body parts in a particular position during a golf swing in which heavy body parts are moving all over the place and golf club's effective weight and momentum are dictating your next action – you’re just asking for frustration.

 

Try walking down he road a few hundred yards at a steady clip and see how successful you are in swinging your arms in the opposite direction that is natural...and while doing so making sure that you have one arm and hand that hits the mark near your thigh that you have prearranged they should hit.

 

I'm afraid you are trying to do more than you (or any other person) are reasonably capable of doing. I suggest that you change your focus to where you want to move the club, not body parts. 

 

I also suggest that you work on your subconscious mind, which defines all thoughts and actions within our awareness. It is a data-bank for everything, which is not in your conscious mind. It stores your beliefs, your previous experience, your memories, your skills. Everything that you have seen, done or thought is also there.  It also is responsible for allowing you to reach and pick up your coffee cup or drink without ever looking to see where it’s located - without opening your eyes  or lookin at the drink sitting on the table you already know exactly where the drink sits in your subconscious mind and you just reach for it and grab it just like you had put your eyes on it! When your subconscious mind can see where you want your golf club (not body parts)to end up at a certain point in the swing - it makes accomplishing the task much easier. Your mind has the ability to give you visionary powers based on preconceived views and intentions. It can provide a  roadmap to many successful end results and eventualities.  As you might imagine this also plays a big part in one's ability to putt well. 

 

I know this reply is rather long and twisty, but I hope it helps.

 

 

 

 

    

 

Good feedback!  Thanks!

 

I am not too obsessed over exact positions.  Especially, when I am playing.  But I am well aware of my tendencies / flaws.  And, realistic about just how long of a journey it is to get it right.

 

Easily, the most maddening part of working on a better swing is knowing your flaw, knowing the fix, but having to accept the thousands of poor shots while staying committed to the "new motion" and reprogramming the subconscious.  And sticking to a plan also means stop reading swing forums! 😉. Or at least, keep them perspective.  Stop watching swings on instragram, stop watching positions, stop watching other drills that do not apply, stop watching the technicalities on AMG.  But it is tough!  Being a smart student of the swing is a lot tougher than actually making a good swing!

 

While I can "analyze" or "theorize" on a forum a possible solution for getting the hands in front of the right thing at P6,  (and there are countless references to this ideal position all over social media / forums) I really do not spend much time at a range trying to achieve a particular position at the range when swinging at normal speed.   It's impossible.   I only know later I am not doing this from reviewing a swing video.

 

Pretty much every time I record my swing and review on the range, I want to throw up.  The same flaws show for many, many years.  But somehow I have something learned something, because over the years my ball striking is better, the swing is a little better...but still the same flaws.  I watch the video and one of three things (or all of them happen).  Either (1) I see an obvious bad move and it is an easy fix.  Like setup is off, ball position, or sucked the club back way too inside vs normal.  I call this laziness and just a bad swing to have recorded, so back to fundamentals, or (2) I see a subtle bad move that has been pointed out more than once by an instructor, it is a flaw that has been around for awhile and I have to decide, do I want to hit the next 10 balls with a drill just working on that? or (3) I see a bad move that has been with me awhile and I know there is no way I am going to fix it with 10 balls on a drill, maybe I will, but even so, that flaw is coming back again, and again, and again...that flaw is still 5,000 balls away from somewhat of a "fix".

 

Anyway, now I am getting long and twisty!

 

These forums and social media swing stuff can be fun and interesting, but they sure are dangerous in long doses.  I am more working on the subconscious and confidence.  One shot at a time, stick to a routine, just deal with next shot.  I am at an "all time high" in confidence with Wood/irons.  I think I am on the right track with short game following James Sieckmann's book so half confident but trending in the right direction.  But no confidence in bunkers due to not practicing it enough following Sieckmann and I not exactly sold on the ease of his bunker technique.

 

Still...all that being said; I sue would like to be just a little more open at impact...just a little. 

[GreatStrike]

On 6/22/2021 at 3:32 PM, CasualLie said:

 

 

 

I feel like I am so close, but missing something crucial.  I am not EE, but hardly open at impact, club is trying to exit left, but not quite as pronounced as the pics you post.  It's in the ballpark, but just a little late; fractionally late.  So how I get that speed in the right place so my hands are not a few inches short of being in front of the thigh, and the clubhead exiting left just a little sooner....a little...?

 

I think you need to re-think (reimagine) what takes place when leverage is part of the sequence of events that moves the golf club from a pre-release position into the impact position, which covers a lot of club movement distance...and a lot of forearm and hand movement distance too. Since you are interested in hitting the magical P6 position just so, point being - when you study the effects of how using torque and leverage will move/shift those body part power sources around by inches, if not by feet in distance, it becomes clearer that trying to put body parts in specific positions is a futile practice.   

  

Take a look at a hinged door (closet door, bathroom door, bedroom door) in your house. Study how the door knob part of the door moves when just a little speed (torque) is applied to the hinge side of the door. A little speed (torque) applied on the hinge side (while hard to do) makes the door knob side of the door move a much greater distance -  a few inches of travel at the hinge side of the door will move the door knob side of the door probably 30  inches or more. That's leverage! Something that will help you better understand your golf swing is that when the inside or the hinge side of the door moves slowly, the outside or door knob side of the door is moved much faster!  Is that thought-provoking? That is why you don't want to apply torque too early in the downswing, because you will send the clubhead on its way too early. There must be a timing and rhythm factor that lumberjack type golfers displaying their brute strength almost always negates.  The idea that when the inside hinge moves slowly the outside is moved much faster it kinda makes you think of Ernie Els' golf swing and how it's slow and smooth appearance seemed to defy logic.  

 

So, if you were strong enough to really apply a lot of torque to the hinge side of the door you could really slam the door with massive speed. Did you know that 'swinging left'  is a means (way/method) somewhat equivalent to applying torque to the hinge side of the door to speed it up drastically?      

 

 

 

 

Edited June 24, 2021 by Nail_It
grammar